The Judgment-Free Soccer Questions Thread

trekfan55

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The Netherlans substitued a keeper in a WC match. I'm not so good with names, but they got him in in right at the end of extra time and then he stopped a few kicks (or maybe was lucky).

Next game they again went to penalties but did not substitute the keeper.

Got it: Tim Krul. He actually saved a few shots by Costa Rica.
 

BrazilianSoxFan

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The Netherlans substitued a keeper in a WC match. I'm not so good with names, but they got him in in right at the end of extra time and then he stopped a few kicks (or maybe was lucky).

Next game they again went to penalties but did not substitute the keeper.

Got it: Tim Krul. He actually saved a few shots by Costa Rica.
And Van Gaal didn't take him in this World Cup squad because he refused to participate in a PK training.
 

joe dokes

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With the talk about PKs in the other thread, here's some interesting-ish stuff:

28% of the goal is "unsaveable"

Keeper should stay put



View attachment 58505
That's pretty interesting. I have thought that staying put made sense because it forces the shooter into making a marginally more difficult shot to either side that might either miss wide or not be post-side enough and can be stopped with a reaction. Guessing and giving up a contiguous 2/3 of the goal never seemed right, but it's so de riguer I figured it must be the better approach.
 

singaporesoxfan

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Not a technical/rules question. Can someone summarize the Ronaldo drama?
Ronaldo is aging, and a step past his prime. He's been playing horribly for Manchester United this season, and gave a petulant-sounding interview with Piers Morgan about that that essentially caused him and Man U to agree to part ways. Now he's signing for al-Nassr in Saudi Arabia for a fortune, though many suspect if he could have played for a Champions League team he would've.

Similarly, he's been unimpressive in this World Cup, and today he wasn't selected as a starter. Because he's been an unlikeable jerk for so long, people are taking the chance to gloat.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Not a technical/rules question. Can someone summarize the Ronaldo drama?
He is the most popular person in the country. It may not be that close. He is one of the greatest players of all time.

But especially in recent years, he gives off the vibe with every fiber of his being that it is all about him. That he cares more about himself than about his club or country. I don't know if that is fair but from 10,000 miles away it seems so.

His skills have also declined lately and he's had a hard time accepting it and has been chirpy and surly about it. He looks for ways to keep himself in the headlines as father time does its thing and makes him a less relevant player.

On the way off the pitch against South Korea he seemed to be showing up his coach for taking him off and was chirpy to a South Korean player. You usually never see that at the world cup. We didn't have high definition access to read Pele's lips, but traditionally when it's the world cup even the greatest players in the world like Messi or Neymar seem to be about the club/country and not about themselves. They are as happy when their teammates score as when they do and they at least give the appearance that they would gladly trade personal glory for team success. Some moreso than others. I mean, all of these guys are probably narcissistic prima donnas. But Ronoldo makes no pretense of it.

His country has a very legitimate chance to win a world championship and they have a very good and strong coach, who has to balance Ronoldo's ego with what he thinks is best for the team and he seems to have made the decision that Ronoldo is better in a support role. Ronoldo is not taking it too well and at least from the boos and cheers it seems as though the supporters are not entirely unified.

Edit: I'd add then when he's on the pitch, the offensive part of the team's game seems to focus largely around him and he seems to demand that. He demands the ball. The offense tends to approach the game as though its object is to get him the ball. Everything seems to be about his making runs and teammates trying to pick him out. This is exaggeration, but at least in terms of orientation I think there is something to that. He's been used to that for a long time and I assume some of his teammates have too. What was remarkable about today as that they looked like a well oiled machine and played with incredible freedom and movement. It's hard to draw too many conclusions from one game but there was certainly evidence today that taking him off was addition by subtraction.
 
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OCST

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Edit: I'd add then when he's on the pitch, the offensive part of the team's game seems to focus largely around him and he seems to demand that. He demands the ball. The offense tends to approach the game as though its object is to get him the ball. Everything seems to be about his making runs and teammates trying to pick him out. This is exaggeration, but at least in terms of orientation I think there is something to that. He's been used to that for a long time and I assume some of his teammates have too. What was remarkable about today as that they looked like a well oiled machine and played with incredible freedom and movement. It's hard to draw too many conclusions from one game but there was certainly evidence today that taking him off was addition by subtraction.
This is the same thing that happened at Manchester United that led to his recent release. It was his second stint there - he had played there in the 2000's, scored tons of goals, helped them win trophies. In the last two years, he was just sour and self-centered. Any notion of team attacking play just went out the window - it was almost like NBA isos - Ronaldo plays hero-ball and the rest of the team does....? He's good enough, and other Utd players were good enough, to have it succeed every once in awhile but not often enough. Although he's undeniably still skilled, Utd are better off without him, and so are Portugal.

Also, he's an asshole.
 

BrazilianSoxFan

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I don't see a foul. The goalkeeper is walking backwards and jumps back at the end, and she has to, since the ball is going behind her.

She was really badly positioned, takes a bad first step (forwards, when the ball will end up behind her). And what the fuck is the point of that middle defender inside the goal?
 

singaporesoxfan

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Yeah, not a foul, and agree with BSF what's with the defender in goal?

Also, really weird watching a soccer game with a clock that counts down and stops.
 

Zososoxfan

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I'm very protective of keepers inside the goal area, but no foul there IMO. I also don't get why the defender setup inside the goal (lol) has her hands behind her back??
 

DJnVa

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Yeah, not a foul, and agree with BSF what's with the defender in goal?
My assumption is that with only 16 seconds on the clock, it allows any header from her to have momentum moving forward and get it out of the box further.
 

BrazilianSoxFan

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My assumption is that with only 16 seconds on the clock, it allows any header from her to have momentum moving forward and get it out of the box further.
Any header form her will already be a goal, and she would have to go through the keeper to try to get to any balls. If the keeper were on the edge of the six-yard-box then maybe it would make sense, but not with the keeper were she is.
 

DJnVa

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Any header form her will already be a goal, and she would have to go through the keeper to try to get to any balls. If the keeper were on the edge of the six-yard-box then maybe it would make sense, but not with the keeper were she is.
Dude, I'm just trying to figure it out. No idea really.
 

singaporesoxfan

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I'm very protective of keepers inside the goal area, but no foul there IMO. I also don't get why the defender setup inside the goal (lol) has her hands behind her back??
We've seen the hands behind the back a few times in this World Cup, it's an odd chicken-like pose to avoid being called out for a handball. Funny that that's how defenders ended up responding to the idea that if your arms are in an "unnatural" position when the ball hits it's a handball... adopting perhaps the most unnatural position of all
 

Zososoxfan

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We've seen the hands behind the back a few times in this World Cup, it's an odd chicken-like pose to avoid being called out for a handball. Funny that that's how defenders ended up responding to the idea that if your arms are in an "unnatural" position when the ball hits it's a handball... adopting perhaps the most unnatural position of all
That thought crossed my mind, but I don't think I've seen defenders do that on corners. I see it when defenders are in the penalty area during open play.
 

singaporesoxfan

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That thought crossed my mind, but I don't think I've seen defenders do that on corners. I see it when defenders are in the penalty area during open play.
Oh yeah, I assumed that perhaps at college level, the defender might just have been coached "keep your hands behind you if the ball is coming in the box" and took that to mean including on set pieces
 

BrazilianSoxFan

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Oh yeah, I assumed that perhaps at college level, the defender might just have been coached "keep your hands behind you if the ball is coming in the box" and took that to mean including on set pieces
Yeah, that white team doesn't look like it's very well coached on how to defend a corner.
 

DJnVa

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Yeah, that white team doesn't look like it's very well coached on how to defend a corner.
I chalk that up to players nerves with 16 seconds left in the national championship. Their coach is the most successful women's college soccer coach ever.

His record at UNC is 901-80-45 (WLT) and has won more than half of all NCAA titles. He also won a World Cup as the USWNT coach.
 

BrazilianSoxFan

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I chalk that up to players nerves with 16 seconds left in the national championship. Their coach is the most successful women's college soccer coach ever.

His record at UNC is 901-80-45 (WLT) and has won more than half of all NCAA titles. He also won a World Cup as the USWNT coach.
Keeping with the judgment free nature of the thread in mind, does his record means he is a good coach or a good recruiter and manager of people?

I don't know enough about NCAA women's soccer to know if he is someone that professional teams constantly try to poach, but a great record at a level that is basically a bunch of amateur teenagers doesn't speak a lot to me.
 

DJnVa

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Keeping with the judgment free nature of the thread in mind, does his record means he is a good coach or a good recruiter and manager of people?

I don't know enough about NCAA women's soccer to know if he is someone that professional teams constantly try to poach, but a great record at a level that is basically a bunch of amateur teenagers doesn't speak a lot to me.
Well, there was really no women professional teams to poach him. He also coached the UNC men's team and was 175-65-21 there and was 65-22-5 as head coach of the USWNT.

I guess there could be an argument that he's just so good at recruiting and that he really can't coach, but I'm not qualified to make that argument. I just made the assumption that someone that's had so much success probably has some ideas on how to coach.
 

Tangled Up In Red

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My assumption is that with only 16 seconds on the clock, it allows any header from her to have momentum moving forward and get it out of the box further.
Only thing I can figure is it gives her an extra split second to attack any shot coming in - meeting it at the line, rather than starting from there. Seems super high risk, though, w/o VAR.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Looks like there could have been a little push on the keeper with the left arm of the offensive player. Can't really tell how significant from the angle. Certainly not a call that the keeper should expect to get.
 

Zososoxfan

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Looks like there could have been a little push on the keeper with the left arm of the offensive player. Can't really tell how significant from the angle. Certainly not a call that the keeper should expect to get.
Agreed, but that's not enough to blow the whistle. And again, I'm very protective of keepers in the goal area.
 

loshjott

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This may be better for the broadcast thread but it seems all announcers, not just Donovan and the other Americans, are using American terms. Team vs. side; field vs. pitch; game vs. match. Is this something Fox is using to appeal to American audiences? Or is another example of Americanisms taking over the language. Do EPL broadcasters use the American terms?
 

SocrManiac

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This may be better for the broadcast thread but it seems all announcers, not just Donovan and the other Americans, are using American terms. Team vs. side; field vs. pitch; game vs. match. Is this something Fox is using to appeal to American audiences? Or is another example of Americanisms taking over the language. Do EPL broadcasters use the American terms?
That’s always been the way with American commentary, really. It doesn’t bother me much. It’s the complete inability to objectively analyze the US team and disconnect between vocal inflection and action that’s disqualifying.
 

Boston Brawler

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So the ARG assistant coach just got a yellow. What happens if he gets another? Or a red? Does he get sent off? Does the team have to take a player off?
 

InstaFace

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So the ARG assistant coach just got a yellow. What happens if he gets another? Or a red? Does he get sent off? Does the team have to take a player off?
He has to leave the bench area and will be suspended for the next match. The team does not have to take a player off.

Refs are usually very liberal with red cards for unruly coaches and bench players, because it doesn't swing the balance on the field all that much, so there's not much reason to put up with any bullshit at all. It's rare to even see a yellow, far more frequently they just red card them and say "get that potty mouth out of here" and get back to business on the field.

(someone else please explain the Miguel Herrera response to ejection, it's worth the reference)
 
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Sunny von Bulow
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This may be better for the broadcast thread but it seems all announcers, not just Donovan and the other Americans, are using American terms. Team vs. side; field vs. pitch; game vs. match. Is this something Fox is using to appeal to American audiences? Or is another example of Americanisms taking over the language. Do EPL broadcasters use the American terms?
the “American” terms on your example are less common in England but are still used. I chat on Everton boards (and am now quite fluent in Scouse) and none of these usages would be out of place - “field” is not common but is used in phrases like”in the middle of the field.” One of the prominent Everton boards is “Grand Old Team,” after the name of an old song about Everton that they play on the PA after games (not “Side”).
 

Zomp

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What is the most prestigious championship for club teams? Their home league or the one(s) where clubs from multiple countries participate?
There is no correct answer. A team like Manchester City would gladly trade the league for the Champions League because they haven’t won it yet.

When Liverpool had their league drought buy win a few Champions Leagues they wanted to win the Premiership more.
 

dirtynine

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What is the most prestigious championship for club teams? Their home league or the one(s) where clubs from multiple countries participate?
Probably the Champions League style continental tournaments, then the league, then the national knockout cups (like the FA Cup). There may be, before long, an expanded Club World Cup (say 32 clubs from around the world instead of the 8 they invite today). That tourney has a chance to gain prominence and prestige to rival the Champions League, if grown smartly. The current CWC is kind of a curiosity; teams take it seriously but mostly see it as a way to pad their trophy case with an exotic trophy.

As mentioned, context also plays a big role - the huge clubs from time to time have a season where everything lines up and they are threats to win multiple competitions in one year. Traditionally winning the Premier League and the FA Cup in the same season is called doing the “double” which has its own kind of prestige. There are other ways to get a double - winning any two competitions during a single season counts - but League+FA Cup is the old-school route. Throw in winning the Champions League and you have achieved a very prestigious “treble” which is truly rare and special - think a perfect game, but a season long. I think Liverpool were threats for a Quad a couple of seasons ago (the aforementioned plus either the League Cup or the Club World Cup, I can’t recall now) but it didn’t work out.

Once expectations reach that level it get really tricky to navigate, because player fatigue is real and you can’t play everybody in every competition. But such a scenario could see a club really trying to win the FA Cup in a way that they might not be so hell-bent on in another year.

Also, clubs who ordinarily would not have the chance to win the league or even finish in the top 6 (which comes with invites to European competitions in the following year) often take the FA Cup more seriously because it’s their only realistic chance to win some hardware or accomplish something beyond just avoiding relegation from the PL.

(This was all very England-centric but it applies to clubs from any country and their respective domestic competitions.)
 

candylandriots

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Here’s one that has vexed me for the 10 years or so I’ve been avidly following the sport. When I see clips from the 90s, the players are almost always wearing baggy, long-sleeved shirts. That doesn’t seem…strategic? What was up with that?
 

singaporesoxfan

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Here’s one that has vexed me for the 10 years or so I’ve been avidly following the sport. When I see clips from the 90s, the players are almost always wearing baggy, long-sleeved shirts. That doesn’t seem…strategic? What was up with that?
Largely fashion (a reaction to the super tight fits in the 80s) but a little strategy in that IIRC shirt tugging started getting called more often around then and a large jersey made it more obvious. Handball rules also weren’t defined by the sleeve of the shirt then
 

snowmanny

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On Giroud's game-winning header it seemed to me that he hit it, it bounced off the English player's upper arm, and then it went in the net. 1) Did I see that correctly? 2) If there was no goal would it have been a penalty? 3) If 1&2 are "yes" should the goal have counted in spite of the penalty that occurred a fraction of a second before the goal or should play have been deemed to stop at the moment of the penalty and a penalty kick awarded?
 

jon abbey

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On a free kick near the goal, why do we occasionally see an attacking player lie down behind the wall? I know this has something to do with offsides but somehow my brain can't process it, thanks for any help.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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jon abbey

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Thank you! My real confusion is that I thought it was one of the attackers, not one of the defenders, but either way I never saw it before.
 

BrazilianSoxFan

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On Giroud's game-winning header it seemed to me that he hit it, it bounced off the English player's upper arm, and then it went in the net. 1) Did I see that correctly? 2) If there was no goal would it have been a penalty? 3) If 1&2 are "yes" should the goal have counted in spite of the penalty that occurred a fraction of a second before the goal or should play have been deemed to stop at the moment of the penalty and a penalty kick awarded?
Yeah, if it's deemed beneficial to the fouled team to let play continue, the referee doesn't need to stop the play. Think of it as declining a penalty in American Football, but at the discretion of the referee and if just a few seconds later the referee realizes that the perceived advantage didn't happen, he can go back and award the foul.

If he did gave a successful advantage but the foul was egregious enough to warrant a yellow or red card, in the next stoppage of play the referee can card the offending player.
 
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epraz

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For a PK in regulation, why does the kicking team get to select who will take it, instead of the player who was denied the chance? Seems like a pretty big deal in a sport that doesn’t have a lot of scoring
 

InstaFace

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On Giroud's game-winning header it seemed to me that he hit it, it bounced off the English player's upper arm, and then it went in the net. 1) Did I see that correctly? 2) If there was no goal would it have been a penalty? 3) If 1&2 are "yes" should the goal have counted in spite of the penalty that occurred a fraction of a second before the goal or should play have been deemed to stop at the moment of the penalty and a penalty kick awarded?
(1) yeah, probably, the angle from behind the goal seemed to show that.

(2) Maybe. While handball interpretations are a bit up in the air and have defied attempts to legislate them with finality, the first aspect you usually see discussed is whether the play was "ball-to-hand" or "hand-to-ball", i.e. did the player move the hand into the path of the ball, or just have the misfortunate of having it in the wrong place. If "hand-to-ball" it's usually deemed intentional and a foul / penalty is awarded (And sometimes a card, unless you're Leo Messi). If "ball-to-hand", a few factors come into play:

- Was the arm in a "natural" position? i.e. would a foul call basically penalize the defender for "having hands"? There are some specific rules for this now, like a support arm below you as you go to slide is a "natural" position, any arms above the shoulders is by-rule not a natural position, etc. Defenders will usually pull their hands in and hold them in front of them
- How much time did they have to react? If it's instantaneous, less likely to have it be called handball.

I would not have been surprised if that particular deflection was not called a handball.

(3) Think about it this way: the best thing that can happen to a team on an offensive "phase of play" (possession) is to score a goal. Most of the rules are written, and interpreted by refs, in a manner that favors goal-scoring (particularly from open play). So, no, in soccer they will often let something play out to see if it helps the offense, and if it results in a goal - well, then, no need to call anything, they got their rewards. Nothing "automatically" stops play (except head injuries), it's all at the enter ref's discretion.