The Game Ball Thread: Wk 14 at Texans

[TheoShmeo]

The coaching staff on all three phases.

The offense got Gronk involved early but did not overuse him. Good play calling throughout the game (with some exceptions). And the scheme to limit or really take away Watt was run to perfection.

On defense, that Hopkins was so bottled up was classic BB/Patricia, and reading the quotes from Hopkins that his team was "outcoached and outplayed" underscored the point and was a nice cherry on the win.

And while the Martin fumble was alarming and could have been a turning a point, it was good to see them immediately go to Amendola as a replacement punt returner and otherwise not suffer any negative plays.

All in all, the Pats were ready to play and as Bill O'Brien and Hopkins said, outcoached the Texans' staff.

 

[pedroia'sboys]

Remember when our corners couldn't turn their heads for the ball. The secondary this year has been every bit as good as last year...I know with a better front 7 but still stunning.

 

[pedroia'sboys]

It's really easy to shit on Lafell when he's asked to be what he isnt. He was fantastic in his role last year.

 

[smokin joe wood]

Remember when our corners couldn't turn their heads for the ball. The secondary this year has been ever bit as good as last year...I know with a better front 7 but still stunning.

Agreed on your main point. Important to note that turning your head doesn't necessarily always mean good things. Butler does a nice job of turning late. Ryan turned really early in the fourth and Hopkins floated on him and caught the ball down the sideline. As with most things in life, not as simple as just turning your head (unless you're playing the Ravens and the deep Flacco underthrow).

 

[Devizier]

Agreed on your main point. Important to note that turning your head doesn't necessarily always mean good things. Butler does a nice job of turning late. Ryan turned really early in the fourth and Hopkins floated on him and caught the ball down the sideline. As with most things in life, not as simple as just turning your head (unless you're playing the Ravens and the deep Flacco underthrow).

Hopkins threw in an extremely well-done stop and go move on that route which had Ryan fooled.

 

[FL4WL3SS]

Yup, the entire defense was beastly tonight. Sheard, Ryan, Hicks, Collins, Butler and Leonard Johnson were balling all night long. And the kicking game needs some love too with Gostkowski hitting two 40+ yarders and Allen, who had a busy night, had a three of his six punts go inside the 20 and one 54 yarder too.

Finally, the coaching staff gets love for patching together everything against a rival coaching staff and some players who undoubtedly have the most institutional knowledge of the Patriots of any team in the NFL. Yet they couldn't do much with it.

Two 40+ yarders that were dead balls straight. Both kicks looked like the old chip in extra points.

When all is said and done, Ghost may go down as the GOAT.

 

[joe dokes]

He wasn't quite game ball worthy, given the performances of Sheard, Ryan and Butler, but it was nice to see Mayo play like a competent NFL linebacker. He may never be the same guy he was 3-4 years ago, but he's been getting much better the last couple of weeks, and is no longer a liability, as he was for much of the first half of the season. And not a moment too soon.

 

[smokin joe wood]

Hopkins threw in an extremely well-done stop and go move on that route which had Ryan fooled.

You're thinking of the Washington catch on Butler. Hopkins just makes a nice play on Ryan down the sideline on a 9 route. Part of life if you're going to cover him 1-v-1. To my untrained eye, it looks like Hopkins presses him just enough inside to give him space on the catch.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/0ap3000000601123/Hoyer-finally-hits-Hopkins-downfield-on-40-yard-toss

 

[BroodsSexton]

Is there a video or a .gif of the Collins suplex?

 

[m0ckduck]

It's really easy to shit on Lafell when he's asked to be what he isnt. He was fantastic in his role last year.

I think he's also just really not right physically, which can explain the drops on a concentration level. A lot of the griping about him comes across like the grousing around Amendola when he was clearly hurting in 2013 and early 14.

 

[Byrdbrain]

He wasn't quite game ball worthy, given the performances of Sheard, Ryan and Butler, but it was nice to see Mayo play like a competent NFL linebacker. He may never be the same guy he was 3-4 years ago, but he's been getting much better the last couple of weeks, and is no longer a liability, as he was for much of the first half of the season. And not a moment too soon.

Mayo was playing in the backfield and "shooting the gap" more than I ever recall him doing. The main knock against him when he was getting lots of tackles a few years ago is that most of them were 5 yards from the line of scrimmage and very few were "impact plays".
I'm not saying he is better now than he was before he just seemed to be playing differently.

 

[crystalline]

I wanted to highlight secondary play too.

It's been said many times that the Pats' corners are coached to turn their heads only if they are very tight in coverage. If the receiver has even a half step on them, the corners are coached to not turn their heads, watch the receiver's eyes, get hands up and break up the catch.

Yesterday we saw great examples of successful defense when the defensive back doesn't turn his head. There were at least 3 plays where the defender got his arm up between the receiver's arms and pulled the ball out. One in the back left corner of the end zone, and two deep down the right sideline. Mostly Butler, right?

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Sheard, Butler, and Gronk

The awful: punt muff, refs, al michaels

Really?

 

[BaseballJones]

Sheard and Hicks were monsters. Easley was really good until he got hurt. Nink was solid. Mayo, I thought, played his best game in a long time. He looked quick and active and made plays. Ryan and Butler were tremendous.

It may sound crazy, but I think the way they're playing right now, that Ryan and Butler are performing at a higher level than Revis and Browner did last year.

Offensively, Brady was solid. Gronk, in limited action, was terrific. I thought Bolden stepped up and White made some really nice plays. Too bad his spectacular catch along the sidelines was ruled out of bounds, because it was a great play. I think he's going to see the ball a lot more as the season goes on. He's improving rapidly, IMO.

Ghost is an absolute machine.

 

[BaseballJones]

EDIT: Triple post. ???

 

[nothumb]

That White play on the sideline, while awesome, was also a 50/50 ball between a 3rd down back and a boundary DB who read the play very well. It was a very risky throw that probably shouldn't have been made. But yes, great to see White making some plays.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

That White play on the sideline, while awesome, was also a 50/50 ball between a 3rd down back and a boundary DB who read the play very well. It was a very risky throw that probably shouldn't have been made. But yes, great to see White making some plays.

White saved an interception there - it wasn't a 50/50 ball, it was a ball that White ripped out of the DBs hands. Should have been ruled a catch, but even if he had clearly landed out of bounds he would still have deserved some credit for preventing a turnover.

 

[Spelunker]

Is there a video or a .gif of the Collins suplex?

edit: the Vine is more succinct than the long mp4.

 

[PaulinMyrBch]

Butler. This might be fanboy hyperbole, but I don't recall, in the history of the NFL, a corner who is better at fighting you to the ground to get the ball out. He may still be turning, running, and having to catch up occasionally, but as far as leaping with the receiver for the catch and doing everything he can to break it up, I don't recall anyone being as active knocking the ball out while still in the air.

 

[BroodsSexton]

edit: the Vine is more succinct than the long mp4.

Yup, that one. makes me laugh that he pulls him back by the jersey and then just hauls him over.

 

[Super Nomario]

The Texans had SEVEN first downs last night.

 

[Hoodie Sleeves]

Mayo was playing in the backfield and "shooting the gap" more than I ever recall him doing. The main knock against him when he was getting lots of tackles a few years ago is that most of them were 5 yards from the line of scrimmage and very few were "impact plays".
I'm not saying he is better now than he was before he just seemed to be playing differently.

Mayo has a very different (and easier) job than he had back then (even Collins and Hightower have an easier job than Mayo had).

In 2010 Mayo was first team all-pro with Pat Chung and Brandon Merriweather playing behind him, with Spikes, Nink, and Jermaine Cunningham/Gary Guyton playing beside him, and a line in front of him that included the corpses of Mike Wright, and Gerard Warren. Ron Brace also got significant playing time. 2011 wasn't much different - largely replace Brace with Kyle Love.

His job was to basically clean up when all the limited players around him made mistakes. And they made many mistakes.

Collins (and Hightower probably) is a better player - but he has a much easier job because he's got better safeties behind him and a better line in front of him. There are probably only 2 or 3 players on that 2010 defense that would start on this one (2010 Wilfork, 2010 McCourty CB, 2010 Mayo) and probably only 4 or 5 that would make the roster.

 

[Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt]

It may sound crazy, but I think the way they're playing right now, that Ryan and Butler are performing at a higher level than Revis and Browner did last year.

That does indeed sound crazy. I think we've seen as top-notch a performance from those two than we could have reasonably expected, and I think Logan Ryan had a terrific game last night, but stats-wise and eyeball-test-wise, it's important to bear in mind the difference in offenses we faced last year, and the uptick in front 7 play this year. Ryan and Butler have been solid, at times more than that and at times less, but let's calm down about how good this secondary is.

 

[DegenerateSoxFan]

Game balls:

The whole D, but particularly Sheard and Ryan. No original observation here, but if this group is healthy plus Hightower for the playoffs, I give them the edge on anyone.

Gronk - still too fast for the linebackers and too big for the d-backs to handle, and still a willing and very capable blocker. Just having him on the field and having to account for him is a bitch for the opposition.

Edit: And the coaching staff. In the chess game, they were grandmasters, while Houston's were club-level players.

Only real concern: O-Line was inconsistent, and if the Pats fall in the postseason, it'll be because some team manages to get consistent inside pressure on Brady rushing just four.

 

[gryoung]

The coaching staff on all three phases.

The offense got Gronk involved early but did not overuse him. Good play calling throughout the game (with some exceptions). And the scheme to limit or really take away Watt was run to perfection.

On defense, that Hopkins was so bottled up was classic BB/Patricia, and reading the quotes from Hopkins that his team was "outcoached and outplayed" underscored the point and was a nice cherry on the win.

And while the Martin fumble was alarming and could have been a turning a point, it was good to see them immediately go to Amendola as a replacement punt returner and otherwise not suffer any negative plays.
All in all, the Pats were ready to play and as Bill O'Brien and Hopkins said, outcoached the Texans' staff.

I can't imagine a Patriots player saying they were outcoached. At least not being on the roster for long after that.

 

[TheoShmeo]

I can't imagine a Patriots player saying they were outcoached. At least not being on the roster for long after that.

I seem to recall one or more of the players saying that after the Dolphins wild cat game. But it's possible I am mis-remembering. I know Bill said it after that one and not in a perfunctory way. And I know that's not your point.

 

[Shelterdog]

Game balls:

The whole D, but particularly Sheard and Ryan. No original observation here, but if this group is healthy plus Hightower for the playoffs, I give them the edge on anyone.

Gronk - still too fast for the linebackers and too big for the d-backs to handle, and still a willing and very capable blocker. Just having him on the field and having to account for him is a bitch for the opposition.

Only real concern: O-Line was inconsistent, and if the Pats fall in the postseason, it'll be because some team manages to get consistent inside pressure on Brady rushing just four.

One nice thing is that a lot of the teams with pretty good d-lines--Jets, Texans with Watt, Rams, Bills--are just bad teams. Bengals/KC/Denver are all pretty good up front but I'm not terrified of any of them lining up four and consistently winning out.

 

[RIrooter09]

I think calling the Jets a bad team is a bit harsh. They're in line for a playoff spot.

 

[Norm loves Vera]

Amendola for bringing some Moxie to the field:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000600951/Danny-Amendola-doesn-t-appreciate-being-bumped-
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000600951/Danny-Amendola-doesn-t-appreciate-being-bumped-

 

[Hoodie Sleeves]

Game balls:

Only real concern: O-Line was inconsistent, and if the Pats fall in the postseason, it'll be because some team manages to get consistent inside pressure on Brady rushing just four.

I'm not too worried about that - for a bit of a perverse reason.

Teams are lining up 4 now, and getting consistent pressure - and they have been most of the season. The Texans had a sack yesterday where they rushed 3 (and it wasn't a coverage sack, it was almost immediate). I'm not sure that a better line puts much more pressure on Brady than a bad one does at this point - the key is him getting the ball out quicker than they can get there.

What's keeping this offense alive is some really good scheme work, and guys who can get open almost immediately. What kills this team is taking away the short stuff - whether through guys getting hurt, or someone playing some heavy bump-and-run ... the pressure IS going to get there if you can prevent the receivers from getting open quickly.

Which is why I'm shocked when so many teams come out playing zone - it's just nuts.

 

[dynomite]

A thoroughly satisfying road win on national TV, featuring one of the most ferocious defensive performances in recent memory. That defense was just stifling, basically from whistle-to-whistle.

UP:

- Defense: From Sheard to Butler, Collins to Ryan, lots of guys were executing at an extremely high level last night.

- Offense: Finally. With Gronk, White looking solid, and some stability on the offensive line they were good enough. Hardly perfect -- the line was a problem -- but good enough against one of the best defensive lines in the league.

- Kicking units: Ghost and Allen were fabulous last night, and the kick coverage units did their jobs as well.

DOWN:

- Jackson: Too many penalties and looked like he got overpowered a few times.

- Martin: Made fantastic grabs on offense... But that fumbled punt was just awful. No one was near him, and the team was up 14 points in the 4th quarter. They didn't need him to make anything but a safe play.

- LaFell: Tough to put him here, but these drops are tough. Confident he'll be better, and encouraged by a number of good catches.

 

[DJnVa]

Thoughts on why Butler got Washington last night and not Hopkins? Did they think that Hopkins was going to require safety help no matter what so just decided to let Butler get Washington 1 on 1 and not worry about that?

 

[awallstein]

Thoughts on why Butler got Washington last night and not Hopkins? Did they think that Hopkins was going to require safety help no matter what so just decided to let Butler get Washington 1 on 1 and not worry about that?

Isn't this often their basic game-plan? Stick the no. 1 corner one-on-one with the no. 2 WR; the no. 2 corner on the no. 1 WR with help over the top. Arrington on TY Hilton last season with DMac helping out, with Revis on Wayne (?) was similar, I believe.

 

[ElcaballitoMVP]

I think it's two fold.

One is they put Butler 1 on 1 with a guy and hope he holds up. I believe they did this against NYG and Beckham Jr and with PIT on Antonio Brown . So, sometimes he takes the #1. But if the #1 is big, like Hopkins, they can use the bigger Ryan with safety help over the top to neutralize the #1 option while Butler shuts down #2 on his own.

 

[cshea]

Isn't this often their basic game-plan? Stick the no. 1 corner one-on-one with the no. 2 WR; the no. 2 corner on the no. 1 WR with help over the top. Arrington on TY Hilton last season with DMac helping out, with Revis on Wayne (?) was similar, I believe.

This was the basic formula a year ago, Revis on the #2, then Browner + help over the top on the #1. There were some exceptions, generally that's how they did it.

I may be wrong, but it seems like this year Butler's drawn more single coverage on the opposing team's #1. Antonio Brown week 1, Beckham in the Giants game, Sammy Watkins twice, Brandon Marshall, etc.

 

[MuppetAsteriskTalk]

I hope Martin gets more chances to return punts. Until the big mistake, he looked great. And it would be nice to relieve Amendola (and Edelman) from that role.

Lewis made some mistakes with ball security early but they stuck with him and it was paying off until he got hurt.

 

[Super Nomario]

I'm not too worried about that - for a bit of a perverse reason.
What's keeping this offense alive is some really good scheme work, and guys who can get open almost immediately. What kills this team is taking away the short stuff - whether through guys getting hurt, or someone playing some heavy bump-and-run ... the pressure IS going to get there if you can prevent the receivers from getting open quickly.

Which is why I'm shocked when so many teams come out playing zone - it's just nuts.

One of McDaniels' strengths is messing with formation, motion, and spacing to pressure the defenses in different ways. If you put both receivers on one side, how does the defense react? What if you send a guy in motion? Put Gronk on the outside and a WR in the slot? Split the RB out wide? Play with a short split between the OT and the WR? Show a run-heavy look? Sometimes defenses have standard checks to zone defense against these looks, and McDaniels is a master of finding those kinds of buttons and pushing them. They also have a bunch of man-beaters with the crosses and stacks and rub routes.

Isn't this often their basic game-plan? Stick the no. 1 corner one-on-one with the no. 2 WR; the no. 2 corner on the no. 1 WR with help over the top. Arrington on TY Hilton last season with DMac helping out, with Revis on Wayne (?) was similar, I believe.

It depends on the kind of player. Butler's a better matchup for the physical freaks like Sammy Watkins or OBJ; Ryan would likely struggle with those guys even with safety help. Hopkins is a great receiver but his athletic skills are more nuanced. Browner obviously made no sense against a guy like T.Y. Hilton or even Doug Baldwin, but he had the size to compete with Calvin Johnson. Arrington was the opposite; he did a great job on Hilton but couldn't cover bigger guys like Johnson (or even Chris Matthews, as we saw).

 

[Bowhemian]

- Offense: Finally. With Gronk, White looking solid, and some stability on the offensive line they were good enough. Hardly perfect -- the line was a problem -- but good enough against one of the best defensive lines in the league.

I think you are contradicting yourself a bit there. In fact, I thought this was the first game in a while that the offensive line wasn’t a problem.

I mean I think I get what you are saying, but I thought the coaching staff did a great job coming up with blocking schemes to neutralize a very strong D-line. The O-line mostly did well I thought. Sure, there were some breakdowns. But like you said, that is against one of the best D-lines they will face all year.

 

[dynomite]

This was the basic formula a year ago, Revis on the #2, then Browner + help over the top on the #1. There were some exceptions, generally that's how they did it.

Well, I believe they sort of adjusted from game to game.

I remember Revis on AJ Green and Jordy Nelson, but Browner handled the bigger Megatron (except near the goal line I think, where I remember Revis defending a pass in the end zone).

As usual, the Belichick trademark is figuring what works that week instead of sticking to some orthodoxy.

Edit:

I think you are contradicting yourself a bit there. In fact, I thought this was the first game in a while that the offensive line wasn’t a problem.

It is a little contradictory, but I think it's fair. They were good enough, and deserve credit against probably the best line in the NFL.

Hopefully the trend continues.

 

[JimD]

So what was the deal with Collinsworth tonight? It seems that he forgot to study.

On the play where Martin was in motion and took the handoff he said something about how the Pats keep coming up with new things, but isn't that the play that Edelman has run a number of times?

And later he made a point of talking about how Butler's role is to take the #2 WR and it's been that way since the opening week. Did I hallucinate the Butler vs. Odell Beckham Jr. matchup? What was Collinsworth talking about?

He probably prepared for the game expecting to have to explain how the Pats would be in trouble all night long and wasn't ready for the NE domination of Houston that happened instead.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Amendola for bringing some Moxie to the field:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000600951/Danny-Amendola-doesn-t-appreciate-being-bumped-

I enjoyed that at the time.

Watt was doing that little "wave away" move all night. It's a nice move, when you got nothing else to signal.

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

White saved an interception there - it wasn't a 50/50 ball, it was a ball that White ripped out of the DBs hands. Should have been ruled a catch, but even if he had clearly landed out of bounds he would still have deserved some credit for preventing a turnover.

What as the SoSH game thread consensus on that being overturned? I thought replays were inconclusive, so they should have let the call on the field stand.

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

Well, I believe they sort of adjusted from game to game.

I remember Revis on AJ Green and Jordy Nelson, but Browner handled the bigger Megatron (except near the goal line I think, where I remember Revis defending a pass in the end zone).

As usual, the Belichick trademark is figuring what works that week instead of sticking to some orthodoxy.

Edit:



It is a little contradictory, but I think it's fair. They were good enough, and deserve credit against probably the best line in the NFL.

Hopefully the trend continues.

There was really only 1 possession where they were a disaster and it was mostly on Vollmer, so I second the o-line have a good game.

 

[dynomite]

There was really only 1 possession where they were a disaster and it was mostly on Vollmer, so I second the o-line have a good game.

All in all, pretty good against a great front.

If you're referring to the play where Clowney got a sack on a double-team, after the game the PFW guys said they thought Vollmer was rotating to another assignment and the guard didn't anticipate Clowney's speed.

Also, Stork got beaten by Mercilus on that spin move and at least a few other times.

 

[Tony C]

That does indeed sound crazy. I think we've seen as top-notch a performance from those two than we could have reasonably expected, and I think Logan Ryan had a terrific game last night, but stats-wise and eyeball-test-wise, it's important to bear in mind the difference in offenses we faced last year, and the uptick in front 7 play this year. Ryan and Butler have been solid, at times more than that and at times less, but let's calm down about how good this secondary is.

Revis was obviously the best of all of the 4, but Browner the worst -- he was terrific at times against big WRs, but often was a liability, too, in a way that Ryan and Butler have not been. I kind of buy that overall it's a wash.

The advantage this year's team is greater depth at safety, whereas last year's squad had greater depth at CB....the lack of that has really hurt this year's team, though hopefully Johnson can help on that.

 

[jtn46]

Butler. This might be fanboy hyperbole, but I don't recall, in the history of the NFL, a corner who is better at fighting you to the ground to get the ball out. He may still be turning, running, and having to catch up occasionally, but as far as leaping with the receiver for the catch and doing everything he can to break it up, I don't recall anyone being as active knocking the ball out while still in the air.

Yeah he's a lot of fun to watch. He never gives up on a play. There are lots of corners in the league that are physically capable of making the plays he makes, but they just don't. Would not be a bad thing for the team's success if teams stopped throwing in his direction, but it will for sure be less entertaining.

 

[E5 Yaz]

What as the SoSH game thread consensus on that being overturned? I thought replays were inconclusive, so they should have let the call on the field stand.

Belichick detailed how the White catch, in addition to a Danny Amendola catch earlier in the drive that was also overturned, was an extremely close call when team officials viewed replay angles and thus they figured they would remain catches.

That ultimately led to a big-picture discussion on the replay angles that coaches have to look at when making those decisions.

"In particular the White play, it goes back to the whole issue of the angle of the camera and was his heel actually on the white? Or was his toe on the ground and his heel above the white? How close was it?

"I think I'd just say what I've said many times before, because of the plays on the sideline, on the goal-line and on the end line, that the league ought to have cameras there. I don't think we should be too worried about how much it costs. If we need to raise money, we should raise money and get those set up so that on those type of plays we have an absolute down-the-line angle of the play and not, I would say, the angles I saw showing up on the screen -- which none of them were down the line and they were all coming from either behind or from the field or kind of the sideline."

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4788655/on-overturned-catch-bill-belichick-repeats-call-for-boundary-cameras

 

[loshjott]

Butler seems to be great at getting his hand onto the ball/arms of the receiver when the receiver is trying to establish possession.

 

[MarcSullivaFan]

Revis was obviously the best of all of the 4, but Browner the worst -- he was terrific at times against big WRs, but often was a liability, too, in a way that Ryan and Butler have not been. I kind of buy that overall it's a wash.

The advantage this year's team is greater depth at safety, whereas last year's squad had greater depth at CB....the lack of that has really hurt this year's team, though hopefully Johnson can help on that.

I agree that they're thin at CB, but when has it hurt them? Secondary play was pretty far down the list of problems in their two losses.

 

[E5 Yaz]