The Game ball Thread: Week 3 vs Raiders
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I was wondering myself if this is the issue. Last year, Amendola showed brief flashes that he was capable of being a productive part of our offense and he actually had a decent year considering that he missed 4 games and was playing hurt all year.bougrj1 said:
His struggles so far might just be the result of the Swiss cheese line and TB not having time to find him. I'm not saying that I'm certain this is the problem but I'd like to give it a few more weeks before declaring that Amendola just sucks.
Honestly, I think if Edelman was not on the team that Amendola would be catching a lot more passes. Brady has always had a primary receiver - a safety valve, a security blanket. Troy Brown, Wes Welker, Julian Edelman. I'm not saying he'd catch 100 balls necessarily, but he'd be catching a lot more. Just my opinion.
I think the major problem for Amendola is that Edelman has replaced him as the slot receiver. Amendola was brought in to replace Welker and that looked good until he got hurt in the Buffalo game. Since then, Edelman has emerged and become the new Welker and Amendola is now the back up. If Edelman got hurt, I think Amendola would become Brady's primary receiver.ivanvamp said:
The most shocking result for me yesterday was the Chiefs beating Miami in Miami behind an offensive line that has nowhere near as good a track record as New England's. Plus that Chiefs' secondary blows.
Knile Davis gets 132 yards?
We know the interior of the New England line is shaky but Solder and Vollmer have pretty good track records. I am shocked at how poorly Solder has played.
A win is a win. On the bright side the defense has only given up 1 TD and 17 points in the last two games.
Knile Davis gets 132 yards?
We know the interior of the New England line is shaky but Solder and Vollmer have pretty good track records. I am shocked at how poorly Solder has played.
A win is a win. On the bright side the defense has only given up 1 TD and 17 points in the last two games.
Not really sure where else to put this, but can someone explain the OPIs on LaFell to me? Each of the past two weeks, it has looked to me like LaFell has run 5 yards and basically stood still, and the DBs crossing have then run into him well after he's established position. LaFell has knocked them over, but what is he supposed to do if the DB isn't paying attention and runs into him? There's an element of self-defense involved for LaFell at that point as well.
I think the refs erred yesterday by not flagging him for both OPI that he committed on that play rather than just flagging him once.
Just watched the play again, he puts his hand inside the shoulder pads on 27 and drive blocks him then disengages to step back and plant a shoulder in the face of number 38, all before the ball is caught.
Watch what Edelman does on the same play where he creates contact much more subtly and obstructs the defender without just putting two hands on the guys shirt and driving forward.
Just watched the play again, he puts his hand inside the shoulder pads on 27 and drive blocks him then disengages to step back and plant a shoulder in the face of number 38, all before the ball is caught.
Watch what Edelman does on the same play where he creates contact much more subtly and obstructs the defender without just putting two hands on the guys shirt and driving forward.
Stitch01 said:
I see the beginning of the play, where he's going through the guy on him, but I don't see OPI on the guy crossing, which is when the flag was thrown. What is a receiver supposed to do if he is standing still and a crossing DB comes by a second later and runs into him? In any other situation where a WR is standing still and a DB runs into him, it's getting called the other way.
He turned and moved his shoulder back into the guys face, just like he did in week 1 (week one was more blatant, this time he tried to fake like he was putting his shoulders up to catch the pass in a way done by no receiver going to actually catch a pass ever, this time he steamrolled the guy). Not coincidentally, both were flagged and will continue to be flagged every time he does it.
What he should do is not put his shoulder in the face of the opposing player on pick plays/screens before the ball is caught. Stand still if the guy is going to hit him, don't move the shoulder into the player.
Easy call (although not any easier than Holmes throwing down Ryan with two hands and the refs missed that one)
What he should do is not put his shoulder in the face of the opposing player on pick plays/screens before the ball is caught. Stand still if the guy is going to hit him, don't move the shoulder into the player.
Easy call (although not any easier than Holmes throwing down Ryan with two hands and the refs missed that one)
So the difference is the shoulder? Seems like standard self-defense for a guy standing still with a guy running full speed towards him. I don't understand how the shoulder changes the fact that the receiver is entitled to the space. If he's extending his arms outside the bubble, sure, if he's just standing there? I don't like the rule/interpretation, I think the onus should be on the DB to keep his head up.
I do agree that LaFell should be called for blocking straight out of his route.
I do agree that LaFell should be called for blocking straight out of his route.
He's not standing there, he turns and moves into the Raiders DB path by jamming his shoulder into the Raiders DB face and tries to disguise it by putting his hands up to catch a pass that's never coming like he's a broken AI Madden WR. The refs lets a lot of OPI go on those routes (see Broncos, Denver and the fact they didn't flag LaFell for the original block), but he cant just be cleaning out DB's before the pass is caught. Our WR's are probably the worst in the league at setting up those downfield pick plays.
I don't think there is a self defense clause in the OPI rule.
I don't think there is a self defense clause in the OPI rule.
bougrj1 said:
He was also open. Several times. And Brady never looked to him. It was glaring.
The problem is Brady's, as far as I'm concerned.
I'm going to join the chorus of Brady/O-line being the problem. I think LaFell sucks, but Amendola, Wright, and Dobson are all capable receivers. I'm distressed that they didn't dress Dobson. Either he's really sucking in practice or Brady doesn't like him. He was awful the first half of last season, but he really seemed to be coming on before his injury. He's not going to develop sitting on the bench.
The biggest concern on the line to me right now is actually Solder. He's seemingly gone from second tier/borderline top tier LT to getting beaten routinely. He's enterting his physical prime, so this shouldn't be happening. If he keeps playing the way he is, I'd have to think Cannon or Flemming would start getting reps.
PFF, for reference:
Solder: - 3.3
Cannon: - 1.7
Connolly: - 1.9
Devey: - 1.7
Vollmer: + .2
Stork: - .6 in limited snaps
Gronk run blocking - 3.1
With the exception of Vollmer, they all suck.
PFF, for reference:
Solder: - 3.3
Cannon: - 1.7
Connolly: - 1.9
Devey: - 1.7
Vollmer: + .2
Stork: - .6 in limited snaps
Gronk run blocking - 3.1
With the exception of Vollmer, they all suck.
Even if he was just standing there thats the definition of a pick if it's impeding a defender. This isnt the NBA.Stitch01 said:
Could Solder be playing scared due to the concussions? Conjecture, I know, but he doesn't look damaged physically.
Once again this week the Pats got very little out of their 2013 draft.
Collins played 20 snaps (assuming this is partially health driven), Dobson was a healthy scratch, Harmon 12 snaps (Wilson took 13, Ebner 10), Buchanan dressed and played 3 special teams units, but DNP-CD on defense.
Given Harmon only plays one special team unit while Wilson and Ebner play all of them, Chung and Ryan play two units, and Jones plays gunner, I think there's a decent chance Browner's return moves Harmon to the game day inactive list if the depth chart remains as is.
Frustrating start for what looked like a promising draft class coming into the season
Collins played 20 snaps (assuming this is partially health driven), Dobson was a healthy scratch, Harmon 12 snaps (Wilson took 13, Ebner 10), Buchanan dressed and played 3 special teams units, but DNP-CD on defense.
Given Harmon only plays one special team unit while Wilson and Ebner play all of them, Chung and Ryan play two units, and Jones plays gunner, I think there's a decent chance Browner's return moves Harmon to the game day inactive list if the depth chart remains as is.
Frustrating start for what looked like a promising draft class coming into the season
I don't see why Amendola should be expected to have the same agility and ability to cut and achieve separation as he did before losing a major adductor muscle.
While a complete tear may not be painful for as long as a partial tear, it is crazy to think that the recovery leaves you with your original strength--able to perform at an elite level.
While a complete tear may not be painful for as long as a partial tear, it is crazy to think that the recovery leaves you with your original strength--able to perform at an elite level.
LaFell is entitled to space, too. I think the issue is he didn't even make an effort to make it look like he was running a route.NortheasternPJ said:
Harmon is still the guy they trust at S in passing situations. Butler's a much more likely scratch IMO (he didn't play on defense yesterday, as far as I can tell).Stitch01 said:
One big positive so far this year (knock on wood and I'll probably regret saying this in a few weeks or when Siliga gets IR'd later today) is that the team is relatively healthy for what seems like the first time in years. The guys that are banged up seem like they are day-to-day injuries and not six week+type deals and they aren't really stacked with injuries at any single position. OL might start looking better when going up against second string DL's or teams missing some of their best weapons.
Tedy Bruschi brought this up in his ESPN chat today, but I've been wondering about it since Week 1 and can't figure out how to track: how many times has Brady been in the shotgun formation this season?
I know Connolly's bad snap in the shotgun before halftime cost them points, and it's hardly a cure-all for every problem they're having on offense. But Manning used it to help avoid pressure in Seattle, the Pats used to employ it a lot, and I wonder whether we'll see more of it in the weeks ahead.
I saw a post at WEEI (http://www.weei.com/sports/feed/blog/anonymous/focus-charting-offensive-opportunities-patriots-skill-position-players-1) that claims that the percentages were:
- 34% through the first 2 games in 2014
- 42% in 2013
- 47.6% in 2012 according to http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4736861/brady-shotgun-tracker-week-15
I know Connolly's bad snap in the shotgun before halftime cost them points, and it's hardly a cure-all for every problem they're having on offense. But Manning used it to help avoid pressure in Seattle, the Pats used to employ it a lot, and I wonder whether we'll see more of it in the weeks ahead.
I saw a post at WEEI (http://www.weei.com/sports/feed/blog/anonymous/focus-charting-offensive-opportunities-patriots-skill-position-players-1) that claims that the percentages were:
- 34% through the first 2 games in 2014
- 42% in 2013
- 47.6% in 2012 according to http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4736861/brady-shotgun-tracker-week-15
Its actually more striking than even the raw numbers indicate because the percentage of shotgun snaps has gone up dramatically leaguewide. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but that 47.6% or w/e the Pats did in '11 were near the top of the league and close to all time records when they happened, now its more middle of the pack.
Most of it is probably because of issues, but even if everything was running smoothly I wouldn't be surprised to see the Pats move towards running more plays from under center. Bill lead the charge to the Shotgun, it would not be crazy to see him move on as everyone follows his lead. A healthy Gronk and a strong running game would be very difficult to stop, neither which we have at the moment.Stitch01 said:
Yards per play out of the shotgun are materially higher than from under center league-wide even with increased usage, so I don't think there's going to be a wholesale switch back anytime soon. It might be better given Pats personnel to run plays under center, but its probably suboptimal to have to do it so often.
I think shotgun>under center overall for success rate at FO, so Id say yes depending on what you think of that metric.
Not to say teams should be going shotgun every play or anything, just saying that the Pats offense is going sharply in the opposite direction of where the rest of football appears to be headed and the results don't look great so far.
Not to say teams should be going shotgun every play or anything, just saying that the Pats offense is going sharply in the opposite direction of where the rest of football appears to be headed and the results don't look great so far.
Pats have had to rely heavily on play action to slow down the rush. Hard to run play action out of the gun. I think it's that simple.
But it's also not working. At some point the value of play action becomes worth less then the risk of Brady turning his back to the line of scrimmage.MyDaughterLovesTomGordon said:
Stitch01 said:
Dobson is the real head scratcher. He is the only WR they have that has an ability to separate deep and he was seemingly healthy last game.
Really frustrating that he hasn't made any sort of 2nd yr jump to date.
Hoping it was a coaches decision to wake him up but if he ends up as another healthy scratch over the next couple weeks he will be nearing bust territory.
While we are piling on the 2013 class it is also worth noting that James White can't beat out Brandon Bolden. RB is one position that almost never needs a "red-shirt" season. Given that he looked weak and slow during the pre-season this does not bode well. Obviously very early in his career but the early returns are not promising.
Most convincing explanation I have heard is that Solder is playing too high and as a taller LT he's giving up leverage (i.e. against Mack) and that this is a surprise as he has played low since his first year as a Pat playing guard.JohnnyK said:
Is this true?
Around the league we often see backs make an impact in their rookie seasons, but that hasn't been true for the Pats. Vereen had just 15 rushes his rookie season and just 8 catches over his first two seasons. Ridley seemed pretty much ready from jump but got just 87 carries (for 441 yards) in his rookie season. Maroney's the only rookie RB who really got a lot of work.j44thor said:
You are correct sir, on Solder never playing guard: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SoldNa00.htmtims4wins said:
Super Nomario said:
j44thor said:
I don't really know what to make of the Pats and rookie running backs. Redshirts aren't typically needed and It is actually pretty rare for a high draft pick RB like Vereen to be as unproductive as he was in his rookie season and have even a half decent career, most of the guys that got that little playing time were outright busts.
Im relatively bearish on White at this point, lot of the draftniks I read were bearish on him and that criticism was certainly borne out in preseason games, but Vereen turning into at least a decent back makes me pause when looking at Pats rookie RB's vs the rest of the league.
There are three things with Vereen, two of which also apply to White. 1) He was hurt a lot his first two years, impeding his development (similar to what we're seeing with Dobson now). 2) The pass-catching RB role is really complicated. The Erhardt-Perkins system is position-agnostic, which means a receiving back has to understand everything a wide receiver does. If they split out Vereen into the slot, he's expected to do all the option routes and sight adjustments that a WR does. So all the rookie WR growing pains apply to a rookie pass-catching RB. But that's not all - he also has to know all the blitz pickups and protection schemes, as well as all the RB duties. Other than QB it might be the most complicated position in the offense. 3) They didn't need him to be productive year 1. They had Woodhead and even half a season of Faulk. Similarly, the Patriots don't need White now because Vereen is healthy. If Vereen suffers another injury, I think we'd see a lot more White. Bolden's a better game-day option at this point because of his special teams contributions.Stitch01 said:
That's fair. J.R. Redmond and Patrick Pass didn't work out, after all (actually, Belichick has probably a worse record drafting RBs than WRs, but they haven't taken as many so no one notices).Stitch01 said:
If memory serves me correctly White broke approximately zero tackles in the preseason. He seemingly went down after first contact on every play. I think it's obvious that there is talent there and speed, and while he will never be a big bruiser my best guess is that a year in an NFL weight lifting program may help put some "sand in his pants". If he can fill out some and not lose his speed, then there might be something there.
I think Volin just confirmed that Collins was battling an injury, so it's way too early to write him off.Stitch01 said:
Ryan had a good game by most accounts. Buchanan was a 7th round pick, so getting a special teams guy from that slot is not terrible. As for Harmon, we'll see, but even a depth guy is OK for a 3rd round pick in most cases.
The one that puzzles me the most is Dobson. He showed flashes last year, and the reports from training camp on him were pretty positive. And now he's been a DNP-CD on a team that's not exactly stacked at the position. I truly do not understand what's going on there.
Patrick Pass was a 7th round pick who stuck around for 8 years. Sure, he was a reserve, but that's still better than most 7th round picks. James White is a 4th round pick, which always have lots of question marks.Super Nomario said:
As for JR Redmond, how quickly we forget:
NWE 17: Tom Brady pass complete to JR Redmomd for 5 yards.
NWE 22: Tom Brady pass complete to JR Redmond for 8 yards. First down.
NWE 30: Tom Brady pass complete to JR Redmond for 11 yards. First down.
....
You may recall a certain coach turned announcer screaming that Brady should be taking a knee during these 3 plays.
To be clear, Im not writing anyone off other than the guys no longer with the team. Im more making an observation that there's usually a big jump from rookie to second year player and the Pats right now aren't really getting that benefit and certainly aren't getting the contribution we thought we'd be getting from this class a month ago.
I'd also add that Bolden plays on 2 ST units. White might be an option as the KR, but Bolden's ST snaps would have to go to someone else.Super Nomario said:
SuperNomario compiled some interesting numbers from the Oakland game.
What did we miss? What should we include for the next game? Your feedback is appreciated.
http://central.sonsofsamhorn.net/nfl/week-3-by-the-numbers-2/
What did we miss? What should we include for the next game? Your feedback is appreciated.
http://central.sonsofsamhorn.net/nfl/week-3-by-the-numbers-2/