The 2017/2018 Boston Celtics Regular season thread

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moondog80

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Recalling the offer made by the C's to move up in the draft and pick Jusitse Winslow; I'm always going to be skeptical that an unprotected Brooklyn pick was included (and rejected) as part of the package, but that point aside, they definitely made a run at moving up from 16 to 9 that year. My question is, would you trade Rozier (who they ended up picking at 16) for Winslow right now? Or for Frank Kaminsky, who the Hornets ended up picking at 9?
 

Eddie Jurak

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Recalling the offer made by the C's to move up in the draft and pick Jusitse Winslow; I'm always going to be skeptical that an unprotected Brooklyn pick was included (and rejected) as part of the package, but that point aside, they definitely made a run at moving up from 16 to 9 that year. My question is, would you trade Rozier (who they ended up picking at 16) for Winslow right now? Or for Frank Kaminsky, who the Hornets ended up picking at 9?
It’s hard to answer in a vacuum, though my gut feeling would be ‘no’.
 

moondog80

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It’s hard to answer in a vacuum, though my gut feeling would be ‘no’.
I agree, both with the gut feeling and the fact that it's hard to say for sure. But the fact that we even arguably got the best player of the three is awesome.
 

DannyDarwinism

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Recalling the offer made by the C's to move up in the draft and pick Jusitse Winslow; I'm always going to be skeptical that an unprotected Brooklyn pick was included (and rejected) as part of the package, but that point aside, they definitely made a run at moving up from 16 to 9 that year. My question is, would you trade Rozier (who they ended up picking at 16) for Winslow right now? Or for Frank Kaminsky, who the Hornets ended up picking at 9?
Probably not, mainly because Winslow hasn't been able to stay on the court and the Celtics look to be set on the wing for a while with Jaylen, Jayson and Hayward. If I wasn't factoring in positional need or injury concerns, I'd might go with Winslow. He's two years younger than T-Ro, and is the type of long, versatile perimeter defender that is so valuable nowadays.

No on Kaminsky. They're about even as shooters, Rozier's a better defender, and all 6'2 of him has a better rebounding rate than Frank. Rozier has made strides in decision-making and shooting and if that continues he has a pretty clear path to becoming a pretty good NBA player. I don't see it much with Kaminsky; he aspires to be situationally useful.
 

BillMuellerFanClub

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If the price is a second, then it is not a crazy idea. Especially since he has some ability to score and the Celtics bench unit, well, doesn't. A flyer on him wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

To do it without the DPE, they would need to send at least $3.92 million back. That's possible, but seems unwise.

They could send Morris ($5 MM), but that doesn't seem like a move that would help them. And Philly may not want to add Morris' contract for next year. They aren't sending Baynes (4.3 MM).

That leaves them combining salaries. But they aren't going to send Theis ($0.815 MM). Ojeleye ($1.29 MM), or Rozier ($1.99 MM) in an Okafor deal.

That leaves 3 players: Yabusele ($2.25), Larkin ($1.47 MM), and Nader ($1.17 MM). All 3 of them would have to be included in an Okafor deal, and that would bring them down to 11 healthy players. I suppose they could sign Jabari Bird and he might even be an improvement on Nader. And maybe if they can bring in a decent backup PG with the DPE deal, it would all work. But you are still dealing a 2nd, a useful deep bench role player, and a project type prospect for Okafor. Not sure it makes sense (or if Philly would even want Yabu et al).

But taking him in via the DPE would not be a bad idea at all. In effect, the $8.4 MM DPE is replaced by Okafor's $4.95 MM salary. But you get more than a flyer on a highly drafted player who has struggled - you also get the chance to ship him out in a deadline deal.

Package Okafor with Morris and draft pick(s) at the deadline, and they can take back $12.5 MM in salary. Throw in Larkin, Yabusele, and Nader, and they can take back $18.5 million in salary.

It's not crazy to think that if Okafor comes here and continues to be a bust (not unlikely), they can still get some value out of including him in a deal.
This is great analysis, thanks for taking the time. I was only concerned with using the DPE because it would have precluded us from making another deal as we get deeper into the season where needs may become more evident. I had not considered sending off the player acquired using the DPE as part of something else, which seems like a Danny Ainge type of move.
 

the moops

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Yea, there was speculation about signing a FA or an early buyout candidate to the full DPE, just so that salary could be used at the deadline to acquire someone else. Not having lousy contracts to add as salary filler is a bummer sometimes
 

bosox79

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If this board hated Kelly Olynyk, I can't even imagine how it would react to Frank Kaminsky. I'd say no on Winslow too but he is still just 21 years old.

I'm a believer that Terry will become an acceptable shooter.
 

bosox79

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ESPN reporting that J. Okafor's asking price is now a 2nd round pick.

I gotta say, as someone who wanted nothing to do with the guy even just a few weeks ago, I'd be more than cool with Danny making this move. I'm not sure if they can make the salaries work, or if they would have to use the DPE. If the latter, I'd probably still stay clear and wait for a buyout. However, if the former, I'd be all over this. Okafor has handled this entire situation like a professional, and after seeing what Brad has done with bringing around the defensive effort with Tatum and Kyrie, am really intrigued by the idea of exploiting Philadelphia's mismanagement of his potential. Not to mention, even a net positive in Boston's favor would be the ultimate dick-punch to those uppity assholes from Pennsylvania.

The only way Okafor makes any sense is if he is bought out. I'd gladly give a 2nd round pick for him in a vacuum but the added contracts makes it difficult, even if Yabu, Nader and Larkin really wouldn't be missed.
 

Eddie Jurak

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The only way Okafor makes any sense is if he is bought out. I'd gladly give a 2nd round pick for him in a vacuum but the added contracts makes it difficult, even if Yabu, Nader and Larkin really wouldn't be missed.
They could bring him in under the DPE, though. (Meaning they absorb him into the exception and don’t need to send back contracts).
 

bosox79

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They could bring him in under the DPE, though. (Meaning they absorb him into the exception and don’t need to send back contracts).
Yeah, but I don't think he's worth using the DPE on. I also don't think they can attach a 2nd round pick to the DPE but I could be wrong. I'd rather they wait to use the DPE on someone like Lou Williams if he becomes available.
 

nighthob

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Yeah, but I don't think he's worth using the DPE on. I also don't think they can attach a 2nd round pick to the DPE but I could be wrong. I'd rather they wait to use the DPE on someone like Lou Williams if he becomes available.
Yeah, and Philly's already declined his fourth year option, so no Bird Rights come with the contract. As such its only use is as contract filler in a larger deal, so there's zero urgency to make a move for him when you can just pick him up if a larger deal presents itself and they need Okafor's money to make up the salary ballast.
 

lexrageorge

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Teams can trade players into the DPE. There is no restriction on what the team can send in a trade to receive the player, other than the usual myriad of trade rules in the CBA. The player does need to be in the last year of his contract.

Okafor's trade value is unlikely to increase, but I'm not sure it's going to decrease much either. Bird rights don't really matter that much on a player like Okafor, who's unlikely to receive a big payday anyway as a free agent. If the C's think he could improve the bench, then it may be better to pick him up earlier than take the risk that desired targets are unavailable later on.
 

nighthob

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It matters in that Boston wouldn't be able to re-sign Okafor except by using their MLE, which they might prefer to reserve to use on an actual NBA player. The only team that makes any logical sense for Okafor is Chicago, and they don't seem to be answering Philly's phone calls.
 

bowiac

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I remain skeptical that the Celtics have any, or have had any real interest in Okafor. Apart from a brief flirtation with David Lee, Ainge has been very "modern" with respect to which NBA players he acquires. And Lee was sent out of town basically as soon as it became clear it wasn't working.

This team could use a big, but they don't have the minutes to give Okafor as a developmental project, and he doesn't make any sense all as a short-term fix.

I think someone like Noel makes a lot more sense. He's playing about as much as Okafor, and has shown actual NBA skills when used in the right role.
 

Lazy vs Crazy

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Yabu played for the Red Claws today and had 27 points on 10-20 shooting with 6 boards and 4 assists.

He's been terrible up here but the potential is still there.
 

bosox79

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Any semi competent big is going to dominate the G league but your point is still true.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Yeah, the #1 concern has to be for a scoring wing off the bench - for once I don't feel like bigs are a particular need of this Celtics team. Now that's not to say you couldn't get Okafor and then also later trade for or sign a scoring wing, but there's only so many bench spots available.
 

mcpickl

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Yeah, and Philly's already declined his fourth year option, so no Bird Rights come with the contract. As such its only use is as contract filler in a larger deal, so there's zero urgency to make a move for him when you can just pick him up if a larger deal presents itself and they need Okafor's money to make up the salary ballast.
If you wanted to use an acquired Okafor as salary ballast to make a larger deal, then there is much more than zero urgency.

You have to wait 60 days after acquiring him to aggregate his salary in another deal. The trade deadline is February 8th so you'd have to acquire Okafor by December 10th at the latest to keep that option open.
 

nighthob

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If you wanted to use an acquired Okafor as salary ballast to make a larger deal, then there is much more than zero urgency.

You have to wait 60 days after acquiring him to aggregate his salary in another deal. The trade deadline is February 8th so you'd have to acquire Okafor by December 10th at the latest to keep that option open.
Unless it was a three way deal.
 

BaseballJones

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Was at the game last night. Bummed Embiid didn't play. Place was rocking. Just a gigantic party - so much fun.

Kyrie was amazing - just looks effortless out there. Theis was terrific, doing what he does. Morris had a very good offensive game, which was needed because Brown did bupkis. Horford was really good and Tatum came on late to finish with a very good stat line.

I was impressed with Philly though - playing without their best player, they hung in there all night long. Covington is really good. Redick can hit from anywhere. And Simmons...what a weird looking player. Never seems to be going very hard, just kind of glides along everywhere. But he's crazy long and has good court vision. Horrid looking shot mechanics. When he was warming up before the game shooting free throws I honestly blanked for a minute and thought it was a different player screwing around shooting lefty. Simmons didn't take a single shot (that I can remember) from outside like 10 feet.

This Celtics team is really, really fun.
 

tbrown_01923

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And Simmons...what a weird looking player. Never seems to be going very hard, just kind of glides along everywhere. But he's crazy long and has good court vision. Horrid looking shot mechanics. When he was warming up before the game shooting free throws I honestly blanked for a minute and thought it was a different player screwing around shooting lefty. Simmons didn't take a single shot (that I can remember) from outside like 10 feet.
Tommy said on the broadcast something to the effect: "This kids going to get free throws down". Maybe (hopefully) I misheard him...
 

bosox79

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Tommy said on the broadcast something to the effect: "This kids going to get free throws down". Maybe (hopefully) I misheard him...
He did. He says that about everyone though. He says Drummond is going to be a good FT shooter.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Simmons didn't take a single shot (that I can remember) from outside like 10 feet.
Simmons took two shots outside 10 feet - a runner and what almost looked like a jumper (one in 1Q and one in 2Q, I forget which is which). It looked to me that one or both of them were outside the free throw line but BRef call them 11 feet and ESPN calls it 12 feet - but maybe they are measuring by where ball is and now where feet are.
 

benhogan

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Baynes starting and MaMo being the 6th man should be a little more common.
1. Al matches up against the Giannis/Simmons/LBJ/Harris juggernauts
2. Baynes bangs with Embid/Drummond/Whiteside/etc BIGS for ~ 20mins/game
3. MaMo adds the scoring punch the bench needs
4. Al plays the 5 in the small ball line-up against the other teams back up Centers (for ~ 16mins/game)
5. Theis adds high energy defense at the 5 for ~12mins/game

  • Out of the Celtics’ 17 most commonly used lineups (more than 15 minutes of court time), Kyrie Irving, Jaylen Brown, Jayson Tatum, Marcus Morris and Al Horford rank dead last in defensive rating. The starting lineup has played the most out of any of Boston’s top lineups this year (85 minutes) and is allowing 117.8 points per 100 possessions, nearly 20 points worse than the team’s season average of 98.3. That 117.8 mark would put them eight points below the NBA's current worst defense (Sacramento Kings at 109 points allowed per 100 possessions).
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2746004-nba-power-rankings-james-harden-chris-paul-have-houston-rockets-rolling
 

The Needler

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Simmons took two shots outside 10 feet - a runner and what almost looked like a jumper (one in 1Q and one in 2Q, I forget which is which). It looked to me that one or both of them were outside the free throw line but BRef call them 11 feet and ESPN calls it 12 feet - but maybe they are measuring by where ball is and now where feet are.
He scored the very first basket of the game from the elbow. Someone else can perform the pythagorean theorem, but the free throw line is 15 feet.

He had another jumper from the free row line in the second quarter.
 

bosox79

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In a hypothetical universe where the Celtics are forced to pick between Marcus Smart as is or a Terry Rozier who can shoot .420/.380/.800+, who do people take?
 

teddykgb

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I take Smart and I don't even think long and it it. Rozier is a highly replaceable type of player. At his best he's an active defender who can get shots off on anyone. Of course, he's shown little ability to consistently be at his best and he's just one of those guys who seems to go at 7 trillion miles an hour and hope for the best.

Smart is just so damn competitive. It can't be quantified but I don't think the group will ever be skilled enough to afford not having his edge
 

Smokey Joe

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Can’t we just have both?

OK, Smart. I like Rozier, I would be thrilled with the Rozier in this scenario.
But I think Marcus Smart makes other teams nervous, while Rozier would be just another guy.
 

DrewDawg

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Defense and rebounding have been slipping though. So which are the real Celtics?
Well, it probably wasn't the one that had one of the bet defenses in the NBA over the past 10-15 seasons.

But they can be REALLY good. Teams are adjusting to them, and Boston will adjust back.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I mean they had the best defense relative to league average in over 60 years, that wasn't going to continue.
And certainly not against Phoenix in a 1pm Saturday start. These things need to be taken into context. Nothing negative comes out of that game in the ultimate go-through-the-motions spot provided you escape injury-free and with a win. I'm still expecting at least a minor swoon coming up which is natural over an 82-game season. It's all about being best prepared for the spring......maybe even with Hayward solidifying the bench.
 

joe dokes

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And certainly not against Phoenix in a 1pm Saturday start. These things need to be taken into context. Nothing negative comes out of that game in the ultimate go-through-the-motions spot provided you escape injury-free and with a win. I'm still expecting at least a minor swoon coming up which is natural over an 82-game season. It's all about being best prepared for the spring......maybe even with Hayward solidifying the bench.
It wasn't just a Saturday matinee. It was a non nationally-televised weekend afternoon game. I think the national crews at least give the players some jump for the early starts. whether it was Sager, or JvG, or Reggie Miller or Doris Burke...this game had none of that. It wasn't special. It was just early.
Extra moribundity for everyone!
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Not that it matters to anyone but me - however I need to go on record as being, to date, completely wrong about the Kyrie Irving trade. It was a brilliant move and Irving is playing the best basketball of his career. He is having his most efficient season shooting (2pt % and eFG) which isn't a total shock given that he is now the main scorer for his team. However his defense has seen a huge improvement - he is averaging the most steals per game of his career, features his lowest D-Rating (I know that stat has lots of problems) and his BPM is the highest of his career, bolstered by a marginally negative DBPM.

I am sure he will regress at some point but even if he does, the trade has proven to be a clear-cut winner for Ainge and the Celtics (duh!). This team is probably one more very good starter and a bench scorer away from being a true contender. I cannot imagine where they will get the former because those guys don't grow on trees or show up in the spring-time or something. However I fully expect Ainge to get the latter at some point via the DPE (you're my boy, Lou!).

That said, with Kyrie leading the way along with the inspired play of Horford, Smart, Brown and the most efficient 19 year old scorer in ages, this team will present other contenders with a problem.
 

RedOctober3829

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Not that it matters to anyone but me - however I need to go on record as being, to date, completely wrong about the Kyrie Irving trade. It was a brilliant move and Irving is playing the best basketball of his career. He is having his most efficient season shooting (2pt % and eFG) which isn't a total shock given that he is now the main scorer for his team. However his defense has seen a huge improvement - he is averaging the most steals per game of his career, features his lowest D-Rating (I know that stat has lots of problems) and his BPM is the highest of his career, bolstered by a marginally negative DBPM.

I am sure he will regress at some point but even if he does, the trade has proven to be a clear-cut winner for Ainge and the Celtics (duh!). This team is probably one more very good starter and a bench scorer away from being a true contender. I cannot imagine where they will get the former because those guys don't grow on trees or show up in the spring-time or something. However I fully expect Ainge to get the latter at some point via the DPE (you're my boy, Lou!).

That said, with Kyrie leading the way along with the inspired play of Horford, Smart, Brown and the most efficient 19 year old scorer in ages, this team will present other contenders with a problem.
Other contenders? If Boston isn’t a “contender” who else is?
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Other contenders? If Boston isn’t a “contender” who else is?
By true contender, I mean a team that has a shot to beat Cleveland and even Golden State in a seven game series. As presently constituted, the C's have a punchers chance of beating Cleveland in seven though they are going to struggle to score when the games matter.

At present, they have little shot of beating Golden State though that is more a function of the Warriors depth than anything else. That said, if Curry were really hurt or Durant or Green got hurt...
 
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