The 2017/2018 Boston Celtics Regular season thread

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Cesar Crespo

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Figured it deserves its own thread like last year. The Hayward injury obviously sucks but outside of that, the play of our youngsters has been encouraging in a very small sample size.
 

Merkle's Boner

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They need to figure out who they're going to in the 4th to make the big shots. If only...
 

Number45forever

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Mike and Tommy were right on with their thoughts on chemistry during the fourth quarter last night. The Bucks have been together as a group for a long time and it showed. Celtics are going to go through some serious growing pains with all the new faces and the loss of Hayward throwing the entire preseason plan down the drain. They have a lot of talent so it'll come. Plus the east is atrocious. Tatum looks great, Jaylen has appeared to take a big step forward. Lots of positives and the kids will get plenty of play this season now. Should be fun to watch.

Why was Kyrie playing off ball so much against the Bucks? That was odd. He obviously didn't have a great shooting night. Still finding his place for sure.
 

smastroyin

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Obviously the Kyrie Irving story is going to be a big part of the season, but let's not make this thread a re-hash of all the same talking points that were made in the trade thread.
 

BJBossman

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Two games in and it is a "laughable overpay"...not jumping the gun here at all....
I was never a fan of the deal. It's not even about these games. They paid for a top 10 player and got a top 30 player back. That's just bad business.

Some analytics had Crowder as the best player in the deal to begin with (such as RPM).

And the Brooklyn pick never should've even been an option.
 

Eddie Jurak

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If what we saw in the 4th quarter tonight continues, then the critics of the trade will have been proven right.

But it is way too early to be making that judgment now.

This is still a very new team, with only 4 returnees, with 5 rookies, etc.

A huge part of the plan for the season (“the Kyrie and Gordon show”) was rendered worthless for the season less than 48 hours ago, a span of time during which the Celtics has to play 2 games.

Under the circumstances, the struggles the team has had this far are neither surprising nor unfixable.
 

BJBossman

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If what we saw in the 4th quarter tonight continues, then the critics of the trade will have been proven right.

But it is way too early to be making that judgment now.

This is still a very new team, with only 4 returnees, with 5 rookies, etc.

A huge part of the plan for the season (“the Kyrie and Gordon show”) was rendered worthless for the season less than 48 hours ago, a span of time during which the Celtics has to play 2 games.

Under the circumstances, the struggles the team has had this far are neither surprising nor unfixable.
My take has nothing to do with the last 2 nights.

Celtics paid $1M for a $500k house. The opportunity cost is just huge.
 

lexrageorge

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A lot of folks were predicting an adjustment period in the Predictions thread even before the Hayward injury. Several folks mentioned an 0-2 start being quite possible if not likely. Now the adjustment period has gotten even more difficult and challenging. The schedule the first 2 months doesn't do this team any favors either. All of the preseason work has essentially been thrown out the window in its entirety, and practice time will be precious these first few weeks of the season, so the adjustments will need to happen on the fly. Fortunately, the Celtics have 3 days off once they leave Philly, so hopefully they can get some practice time in over the weekend.

It will be a while before we can truly judge this team. We're going to need patience as the kids replacing Hayward's minutes go through inevitable ups and downs, and as Kyrie adjusts to being the entire focus of opposing defenses (something he didn't have to worry about as much in Cleveland, nor was he necessarily expected to have to worry about it this season).

44 wins is looking about right; rehashing the offseason moves won't change that.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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Yeah, the Celtics looked fantastic in the preseason and in the first 5 minutes of Game 1 with Kyrie and Gordon out there. Hayward's ability to create offense opened up a ton of space for Kyrie to operate, and now he isn't going to have that luxury. There is going to be a long and possibly painful adjustment period.

I think a huge thing Celtics fans are going to have to get over is that Kyrie is not Isaiah and he's not going to replicate the season Isaiah had last year because no one is replicating the season Isaiah had last year. Already read people online complaining that Kyrie wasn't taking contact and getting to the line in the fourth last night like IT always used to do. That's just not his game and he's not going to come close to the 8.5 fta/game that IT had last season.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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My take has nothing to do with the last 2 nights.

Celtics paid $1M for a $500k house. The opportunity cost is just huge.
If you really think that Jae Crowder was the best player in the deal, well then I know what to do with your basketball opinions. And yes I understand what the analytics are saying and no I'm not rehashing this.

But you have no idea what the Cs spent yet. If the BRK pick turns out to be #7, then they spent a lot less than you believe.
 

smastroyin

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If you really think that Jae Crowder was the best player in the deal, well then I know what to do with your basketball opinions. And yes I understand what the analytics are saying and no I'm not rehashing this.

But you have no idea what the Cs spent yet. If the BRK pick turns out to be #7, then they spent a lot less than you believe.
I'm not sure how being condescending actually helps you avoid rehashing things. It actually invites people to reply.

Take this as a moderator note.
 

ALiveH

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I don't blame Kyrie. I blame that they are playing way too many young / inexperienced players - historically those players don't know how to score / execute during winning time. Two games not a trend, but right now looking like the T-Wolves of last year. Blowing 2nd half leads due to lack of execution and scoring.
 

lovegtm

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I don't blame Kyrie. I blame that they are playing way too many young / inexperienced players - historically those players don't know how to score / execute during winning time. Two games not a trend, but right now looking like the T-Wolves of last year. Blowing 2nd half leads due to lack of execution and scoring.
Given how good GS is, I prefer that the young guys take their knocks now and learn, rather than play limited roles on a team with capped upside.

Obviously everyone would prefer to have GH out there, but if Jaylen and Jayson get more quality minutes this way, I think the injury could have a massive silver lining in terms of competing for championships for the next 5 years.
 

the moops

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May have been covered, but Jayson Tatum is the youngest player ever to get a double-double.

Second youngest? Dennis Smith Jr who did it one night after Tatum, and also in his teams opening game
 

Kliq

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May have been covered, but Jayson Tatum is the youngest player ever to get a double-double.

Second youngest? Dennis Smith Jr who did it one night after Tatum, and also in his teams opening game
That isn't true; LeBron got one during his second career game when he was almost a full year younger than Tatum.

One thing I think looks clear through two games is that the Celtics do not have a great defensive option against wings. I like Jaylen and think he could end up being a great defender, but right now he was providing little resistance for LeBron or Giannis to do whatever they wanted in the fourth quarter. Maybe when Morris is healthy he could be that guy; but it seems like something that could be found at the trade deadline.
 

bowiac

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I don't think a good defensive wing is going to be easily available at the deadline, unless they're the sort that just destroys any spacing or ball movement you have. This is why Crowder was such a valuable player.
 

DJnVa

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I know they consider Morris a guy that defends LBJ well. But let’s be honest—it’s LBJ and the Greek Freak. They’re like, really good. No one stops them.
 

Eddie Jurak

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One thing I think looks clear through two games is that the Celtics do not have a great defensive option against wings. I like Jaylen and think he could end up being a great defender, but right now he was providing little resistance for LeBron or Giannis to do whatever they wanted in the fourth quarter.
This cracks me up. :)
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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The guy whose defense I am interested in isn't a wing. Its Kyrie Irving. He looked pretty awful against Cleveland but I am willing to give him a pass for a while until he gets used to playing in the Celtics system and with their rotations. It is my hope that the combination of playing for a Stevens coached team coupled with his new status as the team's Alpha (whether he truly expected that or not with Hayward onboard, here he is) will inspire him to up his defensive game.

What will be unacceptable is Irving continuing to be about as a bad a defender as Thomas was - that may not irk many Kyrie stans but he simply has no excuse for putting up numbers that poor again while in Boston.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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One thing I think looks clear through two games is that the Celtics do not have a great defensive option against wings. I like Jaylen and think he could end up being a great defender, but right now he was providing little resistance for LeBron or Giannis to do whatever they wanted in the fourth quarter. Maybe when Morris is healthy he could be that guy; but it seems like something that could be found at the trade deadline.
We said this last year, particularly in the Cavs game where LBJ was being guarded at times (after switches) by 6'2" Avery Bradley and 6'4" Marcus Smart. It wasn't like Crowder was going to have a ton of success guarding LBJ, KD, or Giannis either.

As a side note, losing GH really hurts on the defensive side - he did as good a job on KD during the playoffs last year as anyone else.

It would be great if Morris turned into a defensive stopper. Two years ago, stats say that he guarded LBJ better than anyone else in the Association.
 

Kliq

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I don't think a good defensive wing is going to be easily available at the deadline, unless they're the sort that just destroys any spacing or ball movement you have. This is why Crowder was such a valuable player.
I'm not thinking of an all-defense level defender; just a larger wing that would be better than Jaylen Brown at this stage in his career. A guy like PJ Tucker, Luc Richard Mbaha Moute, Aminu, Thaddeus Young, etc. I think that is a roster improvement that could help this team later in the season.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I'm not thinking of an all-defense level defender; just a larger wing that would be better than Jaylen Brown at this stage in his career. A guy like PJ Tucker, Luc Richard Mbaha Moute, Aminu, Thaddeus Young, etc. I think that is a roster improvement that could help this team later in the season.
UGH! PJ Tucker, great defender is a myth at this point in time!

Seriously, I love PJ Tucker in that the guy is a poster boy for the type of dogged determination that propels a guy who was essentially a never-was to a very useful NBA rotation player, often at the expense of some kid who was drafted higher and paid far more than Tucker ever sniffed in his early seasons in the league. That said, he isn't such a great defender anymore due to age and its only a matter of time before Brown surpasses him - perhaps not in terms of knowing how to rotate but in terms of getting to his spot. Of course the Rockets aren't trading him or Mbah a Moute (who is still a very good defender ) so its all moot.
 

chilidawg

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I'm not thinking of an all-defense level defender; just a larger wing that would be better than Jaylen Brown at this stage in his career. A guy like PJ Tucker, Luc Richard Mbaha Moute, Aminu, Thaddeus Young, etc. I think that is a roster improvement that could help this team later in the season.
Like Marcus Morris?
 

Eddie Jurak

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I'm fine with the defense as it is, plus Morris. Inexperienced players are going to struggle against the LeBrons and the Giannises, but, well, who isn't going to struggle against those guys?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I'm fine with the defense as it is, plus Morris. Inexperienced players are going to struggle against the LeBrons and the Giannises, but, well, who isn't going to struggle against those guys?
I wonder if one reason DA wanted Tatum is because when he looked at JT's length and athleticism, he saw a guy who might be able to guard the KDs, the LBJs, and the GAs of the NBA.
 

benhogan

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I don't think a good defensive wing is going to be easily available at the deadline, unless they're the sort that just destroys any spacing or ball movement you have. This is why Crowder was such a valuable player.
We have no idea who will be available at the halfway point (Jan 3), trade deadline (Feb 8) or by DPE expiration (March 10)?

Due to a very strong top of the 2018 Draft and a prohibitive favourite in Golden State, we do know there will be plenty of teams tanking. Optimism abounds everywhere right now, even Laker fans (maybe that was just LaVar) have talked the 8 seed in the West. But as the season plays out and reality sets in, we could see well-paid, good vets with .25 - 1.25 years left on their deals get bought out to create playing time for 'tanking-team" youngsters. If the Celtics are a top 4 EAST seed at the halfway point, they will be buyers and have more cap space available ($8.4MM DPE*) then the rest of the contenders.

ALSO, that $8.4MM if used on March 10 (66/82 games played - 80% of their 2017-18 contract already paid) will go into the calculation for the vet that wants to play for a contender (Celtics) and be bought-out by the tanking team (thus decreasing the buyout cost for the team that moves first).


*good article on $8.4MM DPE
https://www.celticsblog.com/2017/10/19/16506264/possibility-of-disabled-player-exception-for-boston-celtics-gordon-hayward-injury-replacements
 
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Saints Rest

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That's a terrificly informative article, thanks for linking.

But one area it seemed to gloss over, -- are there any recently "retired" veterans who might be interested in coming back mid-season, a la PJ Brown in 2008?

I see on RealGM a long list (capped by Paul Pierce), but could any of these guys help?
 

Lazy vs Crazy

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That's a terrificly informative article, thanks for linking.

But one area it seemed to gloss over, -- are there any recently "retired" veterans who might be interested in coming back mid-season, a la PJ Brown in 2008?

I see on RealGM a long list (capped by Paul Pierce), but could any of these guys help?
I've seen some reports that Bosh is looking to make a comeback. If he's healthy enough I would absolutely love to sign him because if he plays 25 games his salary goes back on Miami's books and screws with Pat Riley. As a bonus, he'd help the team a ton because we're still short on bigs.
 

DJnVa

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I hate everything about this week in the NBA as it relates to the Celtics except the Lakers getting waxed.
 

herbieplews

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Other than the fact that no one was moving without the ball the other night, the thing that bothered me most was the realization that the Hayward injury has made our bench a shambles. Smart became a starter by necessity and we're left with Rosier and four D-leaguers. Getting Morris back will help, I guess, but this may be difficult to watch for a while.
 

slamminsammya

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We gotta take a 2007 like perspective on this season. They won't be as bad as that year's squad, but its all about letting young guys develop. It will be ugly at times. Rozier, Tatum, and Brown will have huge opportunities to prove themselves. I think Nader has a chance to carve out a niche for himself as well.

That 2007 team had no Pierce for much of the season, and had an 18? game losing streak. But if you watched closely you could see Al Jefferson developing by the day, Tony Allen doing the same (before exploding his ACL), Delonte West turning himself into a very versatile guard, and Rondo showing flashes of potential.

And LEON POWE.
 

benhogan

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That's a terrificly informative article, thanks for linking.

But one area it seemed to gloss over, -- are there any recently "retired" veterans who might be interested in coming back mid-season, a la PJ Brown in 2008?

I see on RealGM a long list (capped by Paul Pierce), but could any of these guys help?
I'd rather have them wait and not use the DPE at the moment (once it's approved by the League).

I think the sweet spot is to sign a player (that is bought out) between Feb. 8 and March 10. The trade period will be over and teams out of contention will be:
1. looking to play young, controlled, cheap players they may have recently drafted
2. save some money this year and next season, with a discounted buyout (see Dwayne Wade buyout)

The Celtics will get a bigger bang for their buck and have more free agents available if they are patient.
 
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nighthob

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I don't think J-Smoove has anything left in the tank. At the moment I think a Gerald Green at the min signing might be a better move, allowing them to hold on to the DPE for later in the year.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I don't think J-Smoove has anything left in the tank. At the moment I think a Gerald Green at the min signing might be a better move, allowing them to hold on to the DPE for later in the year.
Agreed. Grande and Max were speculating about Green coming back on Wednesday night and they too thought it made a lot of sense.
 

bowiac

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I'd rather have them wait and not use the DPE at the moment (once it's approved by the League).

I think the sweet spot is to sign a player (that is bought out) between Feb. 8 and March 10. The trade period will be over and teams out of contention will be:
1. looking to play young, controlled, cheap players they may have recently drafted
2. save some money this year and next season, with a discounted buyout (see Dwayne Wade buyout)

The Celtics will get a bigger bang for their buck and have more free agents available if they are patient.
But whoever they get will only be on the team for like 25 games. As we're seeing tonight, this team is paper thin. It'd be nice to shore that up sooner rather than later.

They're not contending for anything anyway. It seems like there's a pretty real risk that they miss the playoffs entirely without some help sooner rather than later however.
 

Kliq

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So looking at available free agents that might be solid larger wing defenders, pickings are predictably slim. Terrence Jones has bounced around but has always been rated as a good defensive player (career Defensive rating of 105) and has good size, but there is a reason he is a FA right now. Derrick Williams has the size but isn't much of a defender, at least by analytics.

I think a more logical solution would be if Morris comes back and the team is still looking to add a versatile wing defender that maybe can't lock down Giannis or LeBron, but at least make them work hard (I love Brown but in the fourth quarter of both the CLE and MIL games he was offering little resistance) is to find veteran buyout guys, or in a trade. Just looking around the leauge, solid veterans on bad teams that likely would be available look like Thad Young (career DRTG of 107) Quincy Pondexter (long injury history, but historically has been a solid defender and if he proves he is healthy might be a cheap option) DeMarre Caroll (another injury guy but could still be a very good defender that shoots well).
 

Manzivino

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But whoever they get will only be on the team for like 25 games. As we're seeing tonight, this team is paper thin. It'd be nice to shore that up sooner rather than later.

They're not contending for anything anyway. It seems like there's a pretty real risk that they miss the playoffs entirely without some help sooner rather than later however.
Does it even matter whether they make the playoffs? All this season can provide is development minutes for Brown/Tatum and the cost of Smart’s extension. Sign Green because you need bodies and he knows the system, but I’d treat this as a pure process year otherwise. Baby Kyrie and Al to keep the longterm wear and tear down, play the young guys a ton, if they lose a lot and miss the playoffs so be it.
 

Koufax

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538 would have you believe that playoff experience is a predictor of future playoff success.
 
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