That was then: Celebrating what was

Van Everyman

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If Brady wanted to kick (which I had no idea about), then I understand. I'm just surprised given his perfect record on sneaks (many of which came against Ravens/Steelers/Rex Ryan defenses) that he wouldn't want to ice it himself.
One, he only cares about winning. So there’s that. Two, I suspect the prospect of running straight into Aaron Donald wasn’t that enticing.
 

Rudy's Curve

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One, he only cares about winning. So there’s that. Two, I suspect the prospect of running straight into Aaron Donald wasn’t that enticing.
Yes, and he'd win if he did something he was perfect at in his life. That's kind of what I'm getting at.
 

Van Everyman

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Yes, and he'd win if he did something he was perfect at in his life. That's kind of what I'm getting at.
No I get it, but my point was that I don't remember a time on the field--whether it's making a throw instead of taking a sack or anything else--where Brady let ego get in the way of giving his team the best chance to win. And I suspect in this case that he wasn't quite as confident of winning the sneak in that situation against that DL as he was in Ghost's ability to bang a 41 yarder through.
 

Euclis20

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Yes, and he'd win if he did something he was perfect at in his life. That's kind of what I'm getting at.
I know the announcers mentioned it every time he successfully converted a sneak (and he indeed may have been the best ever at it), but Brady wasn't perfect on QB sneaks.

Gost had hit about 83% of his field goals from 40-49 yards over the previous 5 years, and obviously this kick would've been on the shorter end of that range (he hit 92% of his 30-39 yard FGs over that same stretch). Up to that point in his career, Brady had successfully converted 82% of his QB sneaks. Factor in that there were two of the best interior lineman in the league waiting for the sneak and the opposing team KNEW that would be the call and would absolutely 100% sell out on it, and I think it's pretty clear that the odds of Gost hitting a very makable kick were better than the odds of Brady making the play that everyone in the building knew was coming.
 

Rudy's Curve

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I know the announcers mentioned it every time he successfully converted a sneak (and he indeed may have been the best ever at it), but Brady wasn't perfect on QB sneaks.

Gost had hit about 83% of his field goals from 40-49 yards over the previous 5 years, and obviously this kick would've been on the shorter end of that range (he hit 92% of his 30-39 yard FGs over that same stretch). Up to that point in his career, Brady had successfully converted 82% of his QB sneaks. Factor in that there were two of the best interior lineman in the league waiting for the sneak and the opposing team KNEW that would be the call and would absolutely 100% sell out on it, and I think it's pretty clear that the odds of Gost hitting a very makable kick were better than the odds of Brady making the play that everyone in the building knew was coming.
Well that certainly changes the calculation - I guess the perfect part was just urban legend. I'm not a Pats fan, but he certainly made it every time I saw it. I assumed perfection there combined with much less downside than a FG (plus Gostkowski had missed from 46 earlier) in a failed event made the sneak the right call even when everyone knew it was coming. The Pats also moved them pretty well in the run game and specifically on that drive. Short yardage is a different animal and they had just failed the play before, but they also scored there on the first try.
 

Bowhemian

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Given Brady was perfect on sneaks (that is true, right?), I would've sneaked. Gostkowski had also missed from 46 earlier. Not only did a sneak probably have a better chance, but it has way less downside if it fails. A failed sneak gives them the ball at the 24. A missed FG gives it to them at the 31. A blocked FG gives them the ball god knows where.
Not to mention the non-zero chance of a fumble occurring on a sneak. They made the right call.
 

Rudy's Curve

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Not to mention the non-zero chance of a fumble occurring on a sneak. They made the right call.
I’m not saying it was the wrong call, but the odds of a fumble on that kind of sneak (aka not Tyler Huntley trying to reach from two yards out) are practically zero. The FG has way more downside.
 

Euclis20

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I wouldn't have been against lining up for a sneak to try to draw them offsides, then calling timeout if it didn't work (the Pats had one left). Otherwise there's just no reason to get cute about it. He's not Tucker or Vinatieri, but the odds of Gost making that kick were between 80% and 90%. It was his 6th super bowl, I wasn't all that worried about him choking that one away.
 

Over Guapo Grande

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The total amount of kneel-down time that Brady has had to win a Superbowl (in New England) is less than 1 minute. I wouldn't have blamed him for the sneak and soaking in the moment.
 

johnmd20

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I’m not saying it was the wrong call, but the odds of a fumble on that kind of sneak (aka not Tyler Huntley trying to reach from two yards out) are practically zero. The FG has way more downside.
By the numbers, your statement is untrue.

Just ignoring the possibility of a fumble or bad snap on the sneak but somehow assuming a kick would be blocked and returned for a TD is just ignoring the numbers.
 

Rudy's Curve

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By the numbers, your statement is untrue.

Just ignoring the possibility of a fumble or bad snap on the sneak but somehow assuming a kick would be blocked and returned for a TD is just ignoring the numbers.
It's extremely hard to force a fumble when the QB is carrying it high and tight in a super packed space and not trying to reach for the goal line. The Patriots have had at least one blocked FG for a TD in a playoff game off the top of my head. Tom Brady of all people fumbling in that situation would happen about as frequently as Halley's Comet.
 

Super Nomario

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It's extremely hard to force a fumble when the QB is carrying it high and tight in a super packed space and not trying to reach for the goal line. The Patriots have had at least one blocked FG for a TD in a playoff game off the top of my head. Tom Brady of all people fumbling in that situation would happen about as frequently as Halley's Comet.
I mean it's happened:
https://www.buffalobills.com/video/new-england-patriots-quarterback-tom-brady-fumbles-on-the-bills-1-yard--11095833
 

Jimbodandy

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If you told me 25 years ago that someday we would be second-guessing a successful field goal conversion that clinched one of our six super bowl wins, I would have asked you to pass the gravity bong.
 

Al Zarilla

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Right, I was thinking that @Rudy's Curve meant they had one of their own blocked, since that is the discussion
The great Adam Vinatieri had a field goal blocked in the first half in Super Bowl 38. He also missed one on his own which he pushed to the right, also in the first half, a shorty! But, all finished on the happy note as he made the game-winning field goal to beat Carolina.
 

johnmd20

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It's extremely hard to force a fumble when the QB is carrying it high and tight in a super packed space and not trying to reach for the goal line. The Patriots have had at least one blocked FG for a TD in a playoff game off the top of my head. Tom Brady of all people fumbling in that situation would happen about as frequently as Halley's Comet.
Tell that to Josh Allen.
 

tims4wins

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The great Adam Vinatieri had a field goal blocked in the first half in Super Bowl 38. He also missed one on his own which he pushed to the right, also in the first half, a shorty! But, all finished on the happy note as he made the game-winning field goal to beat Carolina.
Right. But again - none returned for a TD.

I know there have been pick returns for TDs against the Pats in the playoffs (Champ Bailey, Logan Ryan)... but since Desmond Howard, have there been any kick, punt, blocked punt, or blocked FG returns for TDs? Or even any fumble returns for TDs??
 

Al Zarilla

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Right. But again - none returned for a TD.

I know there have been pick returns for TDs against the Pats in the playoffs (Champ Bailey, Logan Ryan)... but since Desmond Howard, have there been any kick, punt, blocked punt, or blocked FG returns for TDs? Or even any fumble returns for TDs??
I didn't know we were looking for blocked field goals being returned for touchdowns, although I did get into this thread before coffee. In the Rams SB, I was a little surprised to hear Tom call for the FG, rather than a QB sneak or HB dive into the line to keep the drive going. Worked out great anyway.
 

Old Fart Tree

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The great Adam Vinatieri had a field goal blocked in the first half in Super Bowl 38. He also missed one on his own which he pushed to the right, also in the first half, a shorty! But, all finished on the happy note as he made the game-winning field goal to beat Carolina.
Jesus Christ, I forgot that.

That super bowl was *wacky*. No scoring then ALL the scoring, goofy Brady interception, the kickoff out of bounds, then them leaving Brown wide open for the march for the gamewinner, capped off by He Hate Me taking the kickoff out with the urgency of an August intrasquad.

Wacky.

Edit: can you imagine having bet the under on that one? Christ.
 

BaseballJones

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Right. But again - none returned for a TD.

I know there have been pick returns for TDs against the Pats in the playoffs (Champ Bailey, Logan Ryan)... but since Desmond Howard, have there been any kick, punt, blocked punt, or blocked FG returns for TDs? Or even any fumble returns for TDs??
Champ Bailey returned one for a TD against the Pats?
 

normstalls

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I didn’t know where to put this, but I wanted to share it. My freshman in HS son was given an assignment in English class to write a poem with the theme of ‘I was raised by…’ Here is his poem:


I Was Raised by the Patriots



I was raised by waiting all week
Missing half the game for church.
By, “Let’s F******g Go!!”
And wearing their merch.


I was raised by
Super clean jerseys
Only worn on Sunday.
By, me, my dad, and brother having such a fun day.

I was raised by
Tom Brady touchdowns
To Red Zone Robby G.
By, the victory formation
As they take the game winning knee.

I was raised by ups and downs
“Yes’s” and “No’s”.
By, “Manning’s not as good as Brady”
As we beat the Broncos.

I was raised by
February 2nds
And Super Bowl parties.
By, a very happy house
As Kraft holds up the Lombardi.

I was raised by the Patriots.


He made his pops proud with that one. (Also a little misty eyed… those were special teams and times that will never be reproduced)
 

Brand Name

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Right. But again - none returned for a TD.

I know there have been pick returns for TDs against the Pats in the playoffs (Champ Bailey, Logan Ryan)... but since Desmond Howard, have there been any kick, punt, blocked punt, or blocked FG returns for TDs? Or even any fumble returns for TDs??
All stats include pre/post-Brady.

Kick returns for TDs against the Patriots, postseason: Howard is the only one. Ever.

Patriots have never had a punt blocked in postseason play (let alone allowing a score on one), ditto having any punts returned for touchdowns. I find both incredible given the game quantity/count.

Can't seem to confirm or deny blocked field goal attempts for touchdowns against New England with my research tools but I feel like I'd recall that. Do recall Adam V. as a Colt giving one up to Ty Smith of the Titans though, but that was regular season play.
 
Apr 24, 2019
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I didn’t know where to put this, but I wanted to share it. My freshman in HS son was given an assignment in English class to write a poem with the theme of ‘I was raised by…’ Here is his poem:


I Was Raised by the Patriots



I was raised by waiting all week
Missing half the game for church.
By, “Let’s F******g Go!!”
And wearing their merch.


I was raised by
Super clean jerseys
Only worn on Sunday.
By, me, my dad, and brother having such a fun day.

I was raised by
Tom Brady touchdowns
To Red Zone Robby G.
By, the victory formation
As they take the game winning knee.

I was raised by ups and downs
“Yes’s” and “No’s”.
By, “Manning’s not as good as Brady”
As we beat the Broncos.

I was raised by
February 2nds
And Super Bowl parties.
By, a very happy house
As Kraft holds up the Lombardi.

I was raised by the Patriots.


He made his pops proud with that one. (Also a little misty eyed… those were special teams and times that will never be reproduced)
Bravo. Good boy. Good dad.
 

snowmanny

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9 years ago tonight. Greatest loss in Pats history.
My second favorite thing that happened in the press conferences after that game was Tom Brady saying that he believed in the offense. And then all the radio guys said you could 100% tell that he was lying and that he clearly hated what he had to work with. (Later that year he would again be accused of looking like he was clearly lying when, I believe, he was not).

Then the team went out and averaged something like 40 points a game for the next two months.
 

InstaFace

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9 years ago tonight. Greatest loss in Pats history.
I won't argue "greatest", but right up there was this one. Some of the most fun I've ever had watching what became a loss for my team*. And everyone said "what a thrill - can't wait till the rematch", and then we came within a game of making that happen.

* right up there Sean Manaea no-hitting our eventual-champion 2018 Sox.
 

tims4wins

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I won't argue "greatest", but right up there was this one. Some of the most fun I've ever had watching what became a loss for my team*. And everyone said "what a thrill - can't wait till the rematch", and then we came within a game of making that happen.

* right up there Sean Manaea no-hitting our eventual-champion 2018 Sox.
The 2001 Rams loss of course is another one of the best losses in Pats history.

But to me what makes the Chiefs game unique is how often do you look back at a BLOWOUT loss with fondness and a smile? The only other one I can think of is 19-8.
 

BaseballJones

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Depressing reality: We are very clearly, objectively, in the "Celebrating What Was" phase here.

Makes me sad. But, it was a privilege rooting for this team when they went through the greatest run in history, and I will not root less for them now. I just want them to get back to being good, hopefully sometime soon. Meanwhile, we have barns full of incredible memories that other fan bases can only dream of.
 

Old Fart Tree

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Depressing reality: We are very clearly, objectively, in the "Celebrating What Was" phase here.

Makes me sad. But, it was a privilege rooting for this team when they went through the greatest run in history, and I will not root less for them now. I just want them to get back to being good, hopefully sometime soon. Meanwhile, we have barns full of incredible memories that other fan bases can only dream of.
(Most of us have acknowledged that ever since Tom left, but yeah. It's fine, all good things must come to an end.)

As someone else pointed out, you should theoretically win a super bowl once every 32 years. They basically had about 200 years of success inside of 20. They overindexed on championships by 10x.

We never get to complain about anything ever again. Except maybe Mac Jones, because he sucks.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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I won't argue "greatest", but right up there was this one. Some of the most fun I've ever had watching what became a loss for my team*. And everyone said "what a thrill - can't wait till the rematch", and then we came within a game of making that happen.

* right up there Sean Manaea no-hitting our eventual-champion 2018 Sox.
Regular season only, that game against SF represented the most passing yards Brady had ever thrown in a loss. 443 pass yards on 65 (!) attempts.

And I know it's been mentioned here or in the Brady thread, but he threw 50+ passes 39 times in his career - counting both regular season and post season. Of those 39 times:

reg season: 29 times, 19 wins, 10 losses
post season: 10 times, 6 wins, 4 losses

So 39 times throwing 50+ passes: 25 wins, 14 losses, .641

That's absolutely insane.

EDIT: Just for comparison's sake, here's the same data for Peyton Manning.

reg season: 17 times, 4 wins, 13 losses
post season: 0 times

But he did throw 40+ times in the postseason 12 times and went 3-9 in those games.

For the vast majority of QBs, throwing a ton of passes happens in losing efforts. But for Brady, it usually led to victories. Overwhelmingly so actually. And a large data pool to observe. The opposite of being a "system quarterback", it turned out that more than anyone else, teams rode Brady's arm to victory.
 

tims4wins

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Regular season only, that game against SF represented the most passing yards Brady had ever thrown in a loss. 443 pass yards on 65 (!) attempts.

And I know it's been mentioned here or in the Brady thread, but he threw 50+ passes 39 times in his career - counting both regular season and post season. Of those 39 times:

reg season: 29 times, 19 wins, 10 losses
post season: 10 times, 6 wins, 4 losses

So 39 times throwing 50+ passes: 25 wins, 14 losses, .641

That's absolutely insane.

EDIT: Just for comparison's sake, here's the same data for Peyton Manning.

reg season: 17 times, 4 wins, 13 losses
post season: 0 times

But he did throw 40+ times in the postseason 12 times and went 3-9 in those games.

For the vast majority of QBs, throwing a ton of passes happens in losing efforts. But for Brady, it usually led to victories. Overwhelmingly so actually. And a large data pool to observe. The opposite of being a "system quarterback", it turned out that more than anyone else, teams rode Brady's arm to victory.
The game that most encapsulates this stat to me was the 2014 divisional vs. the Ravens. The Pats more or less made a conscious choice to not even attempt to run the ball. Bolden had 3 carries; Blount had 3 carries; and Vereen had 1. Brady himself had 6 attempts. And he threw 50 times.
 

BaseballJones

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The game that most encapsulates this stat to me was the 2014 divisional vs. the Ravens. The Pats more or less made a conscious choice to not even attempt to run the ball. Bolden had 3 carries; Blount had 3 carries; and Vereen had 1. Brady himself had 6 attempts. And he threw 50 times.
Yep. And Edelman had one pass as well. :)
 

BigJimEd

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The game that most encapsulates this stat to me was the 2014 divisional vs. the Ravens. The Pats more or less made a conscious choice to not even attempt to run the ball. Bolden had 3 carries; Blount had 3 carries; and Vereen had 1. Brady himself had 6 attempts. And he threw 50 times.
Yes, that game sticks out. I remember them doing similar against Minnesota. Obviously not as big of a game and to a lesser degree I think. But this was earlier on, around '05, back when many were still spouting the old narrative that you need to run the ball to set up the pass and you need balance etc. Vikings had a dominant run defense so Patriots came out throwing and won easily.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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It has always been a hallmark of Belichick-coached teams that they will radically change up their strategy and approach on a game by game basis if the situation demands it. And it wasn't just with Brady either, as witnessed by the "Mac's gonna throw only 3 times" game in Buffalo a few years ago.

Unfortunately that latter game seems to have broken Mac's brain.
 

tims4wins

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Yes, that game sticks out. I remember them doing similar against Minnesota. Obviously not as big of a game and to a lesser degree I think. But this was earlier on, around '05, back when many were still spouting the old narrative that you need to run the ball to set up the pass and you need balance etc. Vikings had a dominant run defense so Patriots came out throwing and won easily.
2006, I remember. The Pats had 13 RB rushing attempts vs 43 Brady throws, but 6 of those were after the Pats were already up 31-7 in the 4th quarter. So it was more like a 43 to 7 split.