Super Bowl LVII - Chiefs vs Eagles in Glendale

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
31,188
Deleted. Wrong thread by mistake, and it's already in the right one.
 
Last edited:

loshjott

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2004
15,054
Silver Spring, MD
Controversial opinion......Amendola's throw was not good. I think he got overly anxious and didn't slow up after the handoff. He ended up throwing it about 1 foot higher than he wanted it, which was enough to make Brady have to leap. Brady probably should have caught that by keeping his eyes on it a bit better, but still. I feel like Brady gets overly criticized for that play.
I don’t think that’s controversial. I remember the game thread at the time stating Edelman would have thrown it better. Given it a bit more loft and touch that the aging QB needed to make an easier catch.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
Moderator
SoSH Member
May 20, 2003
36,192
Deep inside Muppet Labs
Yep, they didn't call a single offensive holding penalty all game, if I recall correctly.

Yet they changed what constituted a catch, which allowed Clement's TD reception to stand, when all year long, that, by definition, would NOT have been ruled a catch.
I will never, ever, ever forgive the NFL for this. Troy Vincent, former Eagle and member of the Dolphins HoF, was the guy who made the determination that the TD reception should be a catch. You'll never, ever convince me to forgive the NFL for changing the rules in the middle of a game.

That being said, that whole game was bonkers. We'll never see another game like it. The FG the Eagles made to go up 41-33 was perhaps the most clutch kick I've seen since the Snow Bowl because if he missed it, Brady's got the ball on about the 45 down by only 5 points. Insane game.

Despite my first sentence, I'm not bothered much by this game any more since 1) it was a crazy one, 2) the Pats won the next year, and 3) the era has ended so I can appreciate the ride to get to that SB.
 
Last edited:

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
Moderator
SoSH Member
May 20, 2003
36,192
Deep inside Muppet Labs
Controversial opinion......Amendola's throw was not good. I think he got overly anxious and didn't slow up after the handoff. He ended up throwing it about 1 foot higher than he wanted it, which was enough to make Brady have to leap. Brady probably should have caught that by keeping his eyes on it a bit better, but still. I feel like Brady gets overly criticized for that play.
Yeah I'm with you here. When the Pats ran that exact play against the Eagles in the regular season a couple of years beforehand, the arc on the throw was better and it came from an easier angle so Brady could catch it. Amendola's throw was harder than it needed to be.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
Moderator
SoSH Member
May 20, 2003
36,192
Deep inside Muppet Labs
As for this Super Bowl this year, it's going to be a great game but I am strangely not compelled by it. But I am pulling for the Eagles, I think Hurts is a great QB and I'm already sick of Mahomes fans. I think the subplot of Andy Reid going up against his old team for the title is a good one, as it the potential for mayhem in Philly should the Eagles win.

I'll be avoiding all the pre-game stuff though. Not a fan of the Kelce vs Kelce nonsense.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,733
As for this Super Bowl this year, it's going to be a great game but I am strangely not compelled by it. But I am pulling for the Eagles, I think Hurts is a great QB and I'm already sick of Mahomes fans. I think the subplot of Andy Reid going up against his old team for the title is a good one, as it the potential for mayhem in Philly should the Eagles win.

I'll be avoiding all the pre-game stuff though. Not a fan of the Kelce vs Kelce nonsense.
I'm looking forward to this game because I think both teams are pretty talented and the coaches will be aggressive. We're going to see some crazy plays. Also, Mahomes hasn't really played that well in either SB he's been in. He salvaged the first one with a nice 4th quarter but he was putrid against the Bucs. This kind of feels like an important legacy stepping stone game for him.
 

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag

Internet Cowboy, Turbo Accelerator, tOSU Denier
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
I will never, ever, ever forgive the NFL for this. Troy Vincent, former Eagle and member of the Dolphins HoF, was the guy who made the determination that the TD reception should be a catch. You'll never, ever convince me to forgive the NFL for changing the rules in the middle of a game.
I will say this only one last time.

This is the second weirdest of the many weird Patriot fan takes from this game ("The Philly Special was an illegal formation because I have never played football and seen a WR make a signal to a line judge" being the first). He had possession of the ball and made football moves, getting two feet in. Admittedly, Al Michaels said the ball came loose....but it didn't, he adjusted the hold to avoid the defender but the ball was ALWAYS in his hands. The possession was somewhat clear and the call on the field stood. I WILL grant you that if the call on the field was that it wasn't a catch, that may well have stood as well.

There was a great video that doesn't appear to be on youtube called "Grab my Cox" that showed the 20+ plays where Fletcher Cox was held, grabbed, spun around by the jersey...no call, and that doesn't include Long, Jernigan, Graham et al. It was a VERY loosely called game, which allowed TB12 to carve up the defense and Foles to shine. The league had had multiple big games decided by referees that season and pretty clearly decided to swallow whistles. And that was the deal.

The League, the media, and Troy Vincent do not hate the Patriots.
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
42,348
I'm rooting for Philly (way, way lesser of two evils here) and frankly, I think they win and maybe by double digits.

The KC pass rush that took the Bengals, missing 3 starting offensive lineman, is not going to have the game they just had against the Eagles O Line. I don't see KC slowing down the weapons that Philly has all over the field, and Hurts when he uses his legs.

On the flipside, the Eagles pass defense is #1 in the NFL this year, with regard to yards. They've only given up over 240 yards passing in a game ONCE the entire season, including the playoffs, and they can stop tight ends (and IMO, if you stop Kelce, you stop Mahomes). This year against TE's:

Hockenson: 4-38 yards
Irv Smith: 5-36, 1 td
Logan Thomas: 2-5
Engram: 1-16
Ertz: 6-48
Ferguson: 4-40 1td
Freiermuth: 4-57
OJ Howard: 1-14
L. Thomas: 2-12
Alie-Cox: 1-14
Tonyan: 3-20
Hooper: 3-22
Bellinger: 3-19
Kmet: 4-25
Schultz: 3-43
Trautman: 1-16
Vannett: 2-18
Bellinger: 1-4
Kittle: 3-32

Now, that's not exactly a murderer's row of tight ends, by any means, but game flow was in the favor of Eagles opponents in most of these games, especially the first 12 games or so when teams were playing from behind to catch up to them, so they were throwing, and Philly still gave up the least amount of passing yards in the NFL.

The way I see it, unless Jalen Hurts shits himself, KC gets their run game going, or Mahomes goes full God mode somehow, I just think Philly is the much better team in the matchup. Of course, that's why they play the games.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
Moderator
SoSH Member
May 20, 2003
36,192
Deep inside Muppet Labs
I will say this only one last time.

This is the second weirdest of the many weird Patriot fan takes from this game ("The Philly Special was an illegal formation because I have never played football and seen a WR make a signal to a line judge" being the first). He had possession of the ball and made football moves, getting two feet in. Admittedly, Al Michaels said the ball came loose....but it didn't, he adjusted the hold to avoid the defender but the ball was ALWAYS in his hands. The possession was somewhat clear and the call on the field stood. I WILL grant you that if the call on the field was that it wasn't a catch, that may well have stood as well.

There was a great video that doesn't appear to be on youtube called "Grab my Cox" that showed the 20+ plays where Fletcher Cox was held, grabbed, spun around by the jersey...no call, and that doesn't include Long, Jernigan, Graham et al. It was a VERY loosely called game, which allowed TB12 to carve up the defense and Foles to shine. The league had had multiple big games decided by referees that season and pretty clearly decided to swallow whistles. And that was the deal.

The League, the media, and Troy Vincent do not hate the Patriots.
There's confusion here. The league changed the catch rules AFTER that season which would have made the Clement catch legit. The problem was always that they allowed that catch to stand before changing the rule. Up until that point of that season, such a catch was always ruled incomplete. The real issue was that, and that Vincent was the guy who called down to tell them it should be a catch.

It was a loosely called game. I don't care about the illegal formation on Philly Special because it didn't affect the outcome of the play in the slightest. Holding was never called on either side. Amendola (or maybe Hogan) got absolutely decleated on the final play of the game about 30 yards downfield before the ball was thrown with no call.

I won't address your final line because we will never agree on it. Plenty of evidence to show otherwise but as you say, there's zero point in relitigating it.

I am rooting for you guys on Sunday. I might not even hold my nose to do so!
 

Silverdude2167

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 9, 2006
4,755
Amstredam
Yeah there is no conspiracy here. The NFL applied different rules in the Superbowl than they did during the season and those changes benefited the Eagles.

This article outlines it. Those catches should have been incomplete. But whatever I hope you get your second next weekend.
 

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag

Internet Cowboy, Turbo Accelerator, tOSU Denier
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Yeah there is no conspiracy here. The NFL applied different rules in the Superbowl than they did during the season and those changes benefited the Eagles.

This article outlines it. Those catches should have been incomplete. But whatever I hope you get your second next weekend.
This article - put out by CBS Boston - basically says that Riveron implied this, which is nonsense. It was done to get clicks on a fanbase that eats up "The League hates us" narrative. It literally says that there is no question on the Ertz catch too. They even open the article by saying what Steratore said, which was that he had control throughout the catch....and then they start projecting.

This silliness from Patriots fans is a really weird attribute. When the Red Sox screw up, when the Celtics screw up, when the Bruins screw up, it is their own fault and people are held (brutally) accountable. When the Patriots lose all eyes turn to the refs, the league, etc. It's bananas.
 

loshjott

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2004
15,054
Silver Spring, MD
This article - put out by CBS Boston - basically says that Riveron implied this, which is nonsense. It was done to get clicks on a fanbase that eats up "The League hates us" narrative. It literally says that there is no question on the Ertz catch too. They even open the article by saying what Steratore said, which was that he had control throughout the catch....and then they start projecting.

This silliness from Patriots fans is a really weird attribute. When the Red Sox screw up, when the Celtics screw up, when the Bruins screw up, it is their own fault and people are held (brutally) accountable. When the Patriots lose all eyes turn to the refs, the league, etc. It's bananas.
This is a fan base still smarting over the catcher's interference call in 1975, the Bucky Dent corked bat in 1978, the too many men on the ice call in 1979 - not to mention the calls in the 2010 NBA Finals. It just took the Pats a few years to catch up.
 

BigJimEd

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
4,496
This is a fan base still smarting over the catcher's interference call in 1975, the Bucky Dent corked bat in 1978, the too many men on the ice call in 1979 - not to mention the calls in the 2010 NBA Finals. It just took the Pats a few years to catch up.
Roughing the passer in 1976.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
38,829
Hingham, MA
This article - put out by CBS Boston - basically says that Riveron implied this, which is nonsense. It was done to get clicks on a fanbase that eats up "The League hates us" narrative. It literally says that there is no question on the Ertz catch too. They even open the article by saying what Steratore said, which was that he had control throughout the catch....and then they start projecting.

This silliness from Patriots fans is a really weird attribute. When the Red Sox screw up, when the Celtics screw up, when the Bruins screw up, it is their own fault and people are held (brutally) accountable. When the Patriots lose all eyes turn to the refs, the league, etc. It's bananas.
Not sure anyone really blames the refs or the league for 2007 or 2011. I guess some "in the grasp" chatter from 2007 but whatever. There was also some bitching about the "faceguarding" call in the 2006 AFCCG at Indy. But for the most part I don't think anyone blamed the refs for their playoff losses. Even the 2017 SB, while there is some bitching about the catch rule, I think the vast majority of fans realize the D played like dogshit and the offense made just enough mistakes to cause the loss.

That said, there is a clear persecution complex when it comes to the off-field stuff. Whether or not that is deserved, YMMV. As a fan, dealing with Deflategate was one of the most frustrating things I've been through.

Edit: I'd be curious to hear your honest, non-trolling take on DFG, if you care to offer it.
 

johnmd20

mad dog
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2003
62,282
New York City
Not sure anyone really blames the refs or the league for 2007 or 2011. I guess some "in the grasp" chatter from 2007 but whatever. There was also some bitching about the "faceguarding" call in the 2006 AFCCG at Indy. But for the most part I don't think anyone blamed the refs for their playoff losses. Even the 2017 SB, while there is some bitching about the catch rule, I think the vast majority of fans realize the D played like dogshit and the offense made just enough mistakes to cause the loss.

That said, there is a clear persecution complex when it comes to the off-field stuff. Whether or not that is deserved, YMMV. As a fan, dealing with Deflategate was one of the most frustrating things I've been through.

Edit: I'd be curious to hear your honest, non-trolling take on DFG, if you care to offer it.
Asking a troll not to troll is like asking a fish not to swim.

Anyway, the NFL absolutely hates certain teams. They hate the Browns and the Lions and the Commanders and the Patriots.

To pretend it's not true is to ignore literally the history of the league.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
25,293
Not sure anyone really blames the refs or the league for 2007 or 2011. I guess some "in the grasp" chatter from 2007 but whatever. There was also some bitching about the "faceguarding" call in the 2006 AFCCG at Indy. But for the most part I don't think anyone blamed the refs for their playoff losses. Even the 2017 SB, while there is some bitching about the catch rule, I think the vast majority of fans realize the D played like dogshit and the offense made just enough mistakes to cause the loss.

That said, there is a clear persecution complex when it comes to the off-field stuff. Whether or not that is deserved, YMMV. As a fan, dealing with Deflategate was one of the most frustrating things I've been through.

Edit: I'd be curious to hear your honest, non-trolling take on DFG, if you care to offer it.
The worst part of the Tyree play wasn't the failure to call "in the grasp" - I can see why in that situation they'd give the QB every chance to escape. The real problem was that there were multiple EGREGIOUS holding calls. At one point, Shaun O'Hara admitted later to literally choking Richard Seymour.

Here's the choke:

60810

60812


On the "in the grasp", here's the explanation from Mike Carey, who, by his own admission, only didn't make that call because he was out of position.

https://247sports.com/nfl/new-york-giants/Article/Mike-Carey-nearly-ruined-Giants-David-Tyree-helmet-catch-50940184/

"David Tyree made arguably the greatest catch in NFL Super Bowl history, but according to referee Mike Carey, almost never happened.

Tyree's catch propelled the New York Giants to their Super Bowl XLII upset over the undefeated New England Patriots and Carey was lucky enough to officiate one of the NFL's greatest upsets. Carey, now retired, recently admitted that he was out of normal position when the play was snapped. Had Carey been standing in his normal place, the play would've likely been whistled dead before Manning threw the pass.

"For some reason, I don’t know why, I ran all the way around here to get to that window," Carey said to Tony Siragusa, via Yahoo Sports.

Carey explained to Siragusa that his usual position is behind the quarterback and to the front side. Having said that, the Patriots' pass rush got there so fast on the play that he couldn't get in that position.

"Had I stayed here, I think the outcome would have been different," Carey said. "I probably would have blown the whistle.""


So because Carey didn't do his job right and was out of position, he didn't make the call, even when he admitted that he would have had he been in the right position.

Oh well, c'est la vie.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
13,016
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
I'm looking forward to this game because I think both teams are pretty talented and the coaches will be aggressive. We're going to see some crazy plays. Also, Mahomes hasn't really played that well in either SB he's been in. He salvaged the first one with a nice 4th quarter but he was putrid against the Bucs. This kind of feels like an important legacy stepping stone game for him.
He played terrible for most of that game, but he battled and made some crazy throws when down 20 and people were talking about that being a great game from him in the immediate aftermath of it. I thought I was taking crazy pills. Even that silly pass he made parallel to the ground that people went bonkers over literally went through both of Devin White's hands.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
38,829
Hingham, MA
The worst part of the Tyree play wasn't the failure to call "in the grasp" - I can see why in that situation they'd give the QB every chance to escape. The real problem was that there were multiple EGREGIOUS holding calls. At one point, Shaun O'Hara admitted later to literally choking Richard Seymour.

Here's the choke:

View attachment 60810

View attachment 60812


On the "in the grasp", here's the explanation from Mike Carey, who, by his own admission, only didn't make that call because he was out of position.

https://247sports.com/nfl/new-york-giants/Article/Mike-Carey-nearly-ruined-Giants-David-Tyree-helmet-catch-50940184/

"David Tyree made arguably the greatest catch in NFL Super Bowl history, but according to referee Mike Carey, almost never happened.

Tyree's catch propelled the New York Giants to their Super Bowl XLII upset over the undefeated New England Patriots and Carey was lucky enough to officiate one of the NFL's greatest upsets. Carey, now retired, recently admitted that he was out of normal position when the play was snapped. Had Carey been standing in his normal place, the play would've likely been whistled dead before Manning threw the pass.

"For some reason, I don’t know why, I ran all the way around here to get to that window," Carey said to Tony Siragusa, via Yahoo Sports.

Carey explained to Siragusa that his usual position is behind the quarterback and to the front side. Having said that, the Patriots' pass rush got there so fast on the play that he couldn't get in that position.

"Had I stayed here, I think the outcome would have been different," Carey said. "I probably would have blown the whistle.""


So because Carey didn't do his job right and was out of position, he didn't make the call, even when he admitted that he would have had he been in the right position.

Oh well, c'est la vie.
Mike Carey was a horrible ref.
 

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag

Internet Cowboy, Turbo Accelerator, tOSU Denier
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Not sure anyone really blames the refs or the league for 2007 or 2011. I guess some "in the grasp" chatter from 2007 but whatever. There was also some bitching about the "faceguarding" call in the 2006 AFCCG at Indy. But for the most part I don't think anyone blamed the refs for their playoff losses. Even the 2017 SB, while there is some bitching about the catch rule, I think the vast majority of fans realize the D played like dogshit and the offense made just enough mistakes to cause the loss.

That said, there is a clear persecution complex when it comes to the off-field stuff. Whether or not that is deserved, YMMV. As a fan, dealing with Deflategate was one of the most frustrating things I've been through.

Edit: I'd be curious to hear your honest, non-trolling take on DFG, if you care to offer it.
Oh boy. OK, here we go.

Deflategate begins with Spygate. Everyone and their uncle outside of New England saw Spygate as being a cover up by the league. To understand this, think of what BAD could possibly have come to the Patriots from the league destroying those videos - there is none. All of the early bad stuff was out in the open. The Patriots did not deny having a guy in an illegal taping spot, they did not deny that they used the information, and while they didn't admit to using it to steal signals, they didn't deny it either. It made their weekly opponent prep simpler. Viewing the other tapes really could only have made it worse for the Patriots. The perception around the rest of the US was that there was probably worse on there (basically taping of practices) and the league wanted to kill this monster before it became a bigger deal.

So with that as context, Deflategate happened, and the league was screwed. Was Deflategate, in and of itself, a big deal? A little, but nowhere near to the extent that it eventually got to. The league had to do something as this was not something they could play down 3 years after Spygate. They were fucked.
Now, it is weird that there are people who live in MA, VT, ME, NH, RI and parts of CT who believe that the balls weren't deflated. You have the texts. You have guys taking balls from referees rooms. You have a guy, in an empty hallway, taking the balls into the only spot without a video camera. You have the halftime pressure checks where everyone and their uncle is convinced they are a Harvard trained physicist. You have Brady not giving up his phone to share his texts. The "they weren't doing this" perspective feels a lot like a Benny Hill character who is sure that his wife isn't banging the plumber as the ceiling tiles fall around him, the wife says "Oh, he is using his BIG HAMMER right now" and she comes down wearing a different dress and smoking a cigarette. The texts alone from those two dinguses alone pretty much tell the story of systematic manipulation of game equipment (by a very nominal amount) coming from the QB.

And then you have the most terribly worded statement in the history of statements. "It is more "probable than not...". In trying to calm everyone down with a "yeah....they did it....we didn't see it, and outside of issuing subpoenas we can't prove it definitively....but relax" statement, the report became this flashpoint. Patriots fans viewed this the way that MAGAs view the Mueller report - well it doesn't SAY they are guilty. And that then became the court proceedings, which turned this whole thing into January 6th. And to be honest...I don't think most people understood the court proceedings AT ALL.

But all of these things made the whole thing - a QB who wanted the balls deflated by 3-4 psi to get an edge - into about 1,000 times bigger deal than it was.
 

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag

Internet Cowboy, Turbo Accelerator, tOSU Denier
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Asking a troll not to troll is like asking a fish not to swim.

Anyway, the NFL absolutely hates certain teams. They hate the Browns and the Lions and the Commanders and the Patriots.

To pretend it's not true is to ignore literally the history of the league.
This is a dumb take on a lot of levels.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
38,829
Hingham, MA
I appreciate the response. It definitely began with Spygate.

I think my "favorite" part of Deflategate was that on the one hand we have the GOAT QB preferring the pressure on the low end, and we also have one of the 5-10 best QBs of all time in Rodgers on record as saying he likes the ball over inflated. PSI never mattered before and hasn't mattered since.
 

Bowhemian

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 10, 2015
5,965
Bow, NH
The worst part of the Tyree play wasn't the failure to call "in the grasp" - I can see why in that situation they'd give the QB every chance to escape. The real problem was that there were multiple EGREGIOUS holding calls. At one point, Shaun O'Hara admitted later to literally choking Richard Seymour.

Here's the choke:

View attachment 60810

View attachment 60812


On the "in the grasp", here's the explanation from Mike Carey, who, by his own admission, only didn't make that call because he was out of position.

https://247sports.com/nfl/new-york-giants/Article/Mike-Carey-nearly-ruined-Giants-David-Tyree-helmet-catch-50940184/

"David Tyree made arguably the greatest catch in NFL Super Bowl history, but according to referee Mike Carey, almost never happened.

Tyree's catch propelled the New York Giants to their Super Bowl XLII upset over the undefeated New England Patriots and Carey was lucky enough to officiate one of the NFL's greatest upsets. Carey, now retired, recently admitted that he was out of normal position when the play was snapped. Had Carey been standing in his normal place, the play would've likely been whistled dead before Manning threw the pass.

"For some reason, I don’t know why, I ran all the way around here to get to that window," Carey said to Tony Siragusa, via Yahoo Sports.

Carey explained to Siragusa that his usual position is behind the quarterback and to the front side. Having said that, the Patriots' pass rush got there so fast on the play that he couldn't get in that position.

"Had I stayed here, I think the outcome would have been different," Carey said. "I probably would have blown the whistle.""


So because Carey didn't do his job right and was out of position, he didn't make the call, even when he admitted that he would have had he been in the right position.

Oh well, c'est la vie.
Too soon.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
13,016
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
Oh boy. OK, here we go.

Deflategate begins with Spygate. Everyone and their uncle outside of New England saw Spygate as being a cover up by the league. To understand this, think of what BAD could possibly have come to the Patriots from the league destroying those videos - there is none. All of the early bad stuff was out in the open. The Patriots did not deny having a guy in an illegal taping spot, they did not deny that they used the information, and while they didn't admit to using it to steal signals, they didn't deny it either. It made their weekly opponent prep simpler. Viewing the other tapes really could only have made it worse for the Patriots. The perception around the rest of the US was that there was probably worse on there (basically taping of practices) and the league wanted to kill this monster before it became a bigger deal.

So with that as context, Deflategate happened, and the league was screwed. Was Deflategate, in and of itself, a big deal? A little, but nowhere near to the extent that it eventually got to. The league had to do something as this was not something they could play down 3 years after Spygate. They were fucked.
Now, it is weird that there are people who live in MA, VT, ME, NH, RI and parts of CT who believe that the balls weren't deflated. You have the texts. You have guys taking balls from referees rooms. You have a guy, in an empty hallway, taking the balls into the only spot without a video camera. You have the halftime pressure checks where everyone and their uncle is convinced they are a Harvard trained physicist. You have Brady not giving up his phone to share his texts. The "they weren't doing this" perspective feels a lot like a Benny Hill character who is sure that his wife isn't banging the plumber as the ceiling tiles fall around him, the wife says "Oh, he is using his BIG HAMMER right now" and she comes down wearing a different dress and smoking a cigarette. The texts alone from those two dinguses alone pretty much tell the story of systematic manipulation of game equipment (by a very nominal amount) coming from the QB.

And then you have the most terribly worded statement in the history of statements. "It is more "probable than not...". In trying to calm everyone down with a "yeah....they did it....we didn't see it, and outside of issuing subpoenas we can't prove it definitively....but relax" statement, the report became this flashpoint. Patriots fans viewed this the way that MAGAs view the Mueller report - well it doesn't SAY they are guilty. And that then became the court proceedings, which turned this whole thing into January 6th. And to be honest...I don't think most people understood the court proceedings AT ALL.

But all of these things made the whole thing - a QB who wanted the balls deflated by 3-4 psi to get an edge - into about 1,000 times bigger deal than it was.
There's a whole lot that's factually wrong here, but I'll leave it to those who have the patience to relitigate this stuff.
 

Dogman

Yukon Cornelius
Moderator
SoSH Member
Mar 19, 2004
15,238
Missoula, MT
Nah, let's not even attempt to do so.

Nobody is changing opinions and any attempt at conversation will only devolve precipitously.

Yammer was asked, he answered. Regardless of your feelings on the subject, let's move on.

This thread is about the Eagles/Chiefs upcoming SB.

Thanks.
 

DanoooME

above replacement level
SoSH Member
Mar 16, 2008
20,032
Henderson, NV
That AFCCG was the biggest bag job I've ever seen, prior to that it was the 1976 AFC playoff game Patriots/Raiders, that was the worst one ever, but that shitshow yesterday takes the cake.

And when is the NFL going to can that rugby formation pile push teams now use on QB sneaks and close to the goal line, not sure when that became a thing, but it's complete and utter bullshit to be able to push a guy into the end zone or forward for a first down, as if the NFL wasn't a big enough clownshow to begin with.
It is complete bullshit and the NFL will probably regulate it out of the game, especially if the Eagles win a close game with one of these TDs.

I think the Eagles are setting up for a fake out of that formation and scoring an easy TD to prove they don't "need" the scrum to score.
 

Justthetippett

New Member
Aug 9, 2015
2,811
It is complete bullshit and the NFL will probably regulate it out of the game, especially if the Eagles win a close game with one of these TDs.

I think the Eagles are setting up for a fake out of that formation and scoring an easy TD to prove they don't "need" the scrum to score.
Normally I am for players/coaches making the necessary adjustments when something like this comes along, but I don’t really see how they'd do it short of having the D Line go so low they are on their stomachs and having the second level guys fly over the top. That's both ugly to watch and dangerous for the players, not to mention the success rate would still be low. I also hope they legislate it out. Treat it kind of like a fumble forward. As soon as a push is intentional mark the ball at that spot.
 

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag

Internet Cowboy, Turbo Accelerator, tOSU Denier
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Normally I am for players/coaches making the necessary adjustments when something like this comes along, but I don’t really see how they'd do it short of having the D Line go so low they are on their stomachs and having the second level guys fly over the top. That's both ugly to watch and dangerous for the players, not to mention the success rate would still be low. I also hope they legislate it out. Treat it kind of like a fumble forward. As soon as a push is intentional mark the ball at that spot.
It's a pretty complex issue.

So a bit of history. Guys pushing the runner forward was a part of football for most of the pre-Super Bowl era, and even in the 70s it was pretty common to see. In the 80s and 90s they put rules in that forbade it, but it was immensely complicated as a) When does a tackle begin, and b) when are you pushing a guy vs. blocking a guy? At the HS land college level when a runner is stood up, offensive players around him are supposed to try to block the tackler off of the runner and "push the pile" at least a little bit. In an open field situation this is somewhat obvious, but when you get into the area around the line of scrimmage - as you can imagine - it gets immensely complex.

OK, so in the early 2000s they changed the rules back - you could push a guy, but you could NOT pull a guy (this is rarely called, btw, but nor is "the first player to put downward pressure on the ball has possession" in a fumble situation so...).

Why was this play not being run constantly since the early 2000s? Great question. It was...at the HS level and even in a lot of college programs. Most every HS team has a TE or FB on either side of the QB doing exactly what the Eagles have been doing for like.....30+ years at least. But at the professional level I think - and I have no data to support this - that teams were scared of doing this because they were worried about injuring the QB. The Eagles have a rare confluence of having two all-Pros as interior lineman and the third guy (Seomalu) who is very, very strong. In addition, they have a QB who is a bodybuilder (in case you didn't hear that 732 times this season....) so I think they were a bit more confident running it. Also, teams have gotten more and more aware of the value of possession, which I think puts more focus on 3rd and short and 4th and short. But who knows.

So if we decide that this is a bad play (I am not wed to it) then how can we act to prevent it? I don't think that we can do that by forbidding the push. In the early 2000s the league admitted that it was a horrible can of worms and they were going to let guys do it. To understand the can of worms, just imagine this forum every Monday with lots of photos of Patriots D-linemen with their arm on a RB and a Center blocking that D-lineman and also having a piece of his body on the RB. Ftr, this happens on about 55% of running plays, minimum. Blocking and pushing in close quarters look ALOT alike.

One possibility would be to allow defenders to actively bind. If defenders could grab each others jerseys, link arms, whatever, and come in to the "tip of the spear" in that formation with other defenders driving into them from the rear, the defense would gain an advantage. This is similar to a rugby ruck or maul, but with only one side being allowed to bind.

One final note....as someone who has coached this at the youth/HS level and scouted it at the HS level for a very long time.....the guys who come in at the end are rarely the difference makers. Sometimes they are, but usually it all comes down to the interior of the line getting low and violent, and the QB attacking the gap when there is momentum. It is not often that the QB gets the extra motion he needs to the point that it gets him over the sticks. That is largely because there is a second or so delay in the TE/FB coming in behind, and at that point the hole is clogged.
 

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag

Internet Cowboy, Turbo Accelerator, tOSU Denier
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Nah, let's not even attempt to do so.

Nobody is changing opinions and any attempt at conversation will only devolve precipitously.

Yammer was asked, he answered. Regardless of your feelings on the subject, let's move on.

This thread is about the Eagles/Chiefs upcoming SB.

Thanks.
The last point on DeflateGate. I have always thought that is beyond weird that teams bring their own balls at the NFL level. I get that it happens at every level (mainly because of the cost of footballs), but at the pro level you would think that they would bring 25 balls, put them on the table and let the QBs or coaches pick the game balls. And I do understand that this adds to the hypothesis that the league doesn't really care about the game balls, but at the bottom of all of this, it's just a weird thing. The league should have a pool of like 500 balls to start the season and then just play those balls out through the season, swapping them around the league, etc. Ball prep and all of that should not be a factor in the game, largely because it is stupid.
 

Justthetippett

New Member
Aug 9, 2015
2,811
It's a pretty complex issue.

So a bit of history. Guys pushing the runner forward was a part of football for most of the pre-Super Bowl era, and even in the 70s it was pretty common to see. In the 80s and 90s they put rules in that forbade it, but it was immensely complicated as a) When does a tackle begin, and b) when are you pushing a guy vs. blocking a guy? At the HS land college level when a runner is stood up, offensive players around him are supposed to try to block the tackler off of the runner and "push the pile" at least a little bit. In an open field situation this is somewhat obvious, but when you get into the area around the line of scrimmage - as you can imagine - it gets immensely complex.

OK, so in the early 2000s they changed the rules back - you could push a guy, but you could NOT pull a guy (this is rarely called, btw, but nor is "the first player to put downward pressure on the ball has possession" in a fumble situation so...).

Why was this play not being run constantly since the early 2000s? Great question. It was...at the HS level and even in a lot of college programs. Most every HS team has a TE or FB on either side of the QB doing exactly what the Eagles have been doing for like.....30+ years at least. But at the professional level I think - and I have no data to support this - that teams were scared of doing this because they were worried about injuring the QB. The Eagles have a rare confluence of having two all-Pros as interior lineman and the third guy (Seomalu) who is very, very strong. In addition, they have a QB who is a bodybuilder (in case you didn't hear that 732 times this season....) so I think they were a bit more confident running it. Also, teams have gotten more and more aware of the value of possession, which I think puts more focus on 3rd and short and 4th and short. But who knows.

So if we decide that this is a bad play (I am not wed to it) then how can we act to prevent it? I don't think that we can do that by forbidding the push. In the early 2000s the league admitted that it was a horrible can of worms and they were going to let guys do it. To understand the can of worms, just imagine this forum every Monday with lots of photos of Patriots D-linemen with their arm on a RB and a Center blocking that D-lineman and also having a piece of his body on the RB. Ftr, this happens on about 55% of running plays, minimum. Blocking and pushing in close quarters look ALOT alike.

One possibility would be to allow defenders to actively bind. If defenders could grab each others jerseys, link arms, whatever, and come in to the "tip of the spear" in that formation with other defenders driving into them from the rear, the defense would gain an advantage. This is similar to a rugby ruck or maul, but with only one side being allowed to bind.

One final note....as someone who has coached this at the youth/HS level and scouted it at the HS level for a very long time.....the guys who come in at the end are rarely the difference makers. Sometimes they are, but usually it all comes down to the interior of the line getting low and violent, and the QB attacking the gap when there is momentum. It is not often that the QB gets the extra motion he needs to the point that it gets him over the sticks. That is largely because there is a second or so delay in the TE/FB coming in behind, and at that point the hole is clogged.
Thanks for this informed explanation. Unfortunately it seems like all the options for remedying the situation are bad ones. The last thing we need are more fuzzy judgment calls for the refs. The idea of rugby rules for the Defense is interesting but probably not an aesthetic look the League is very interested in. Would be fun to pick BBs brain about it.
 

Cotillion

New Member
Jun 11, 2019
5,404
It's a pretty complex issue.

So a bit of history. Guys pushing the runner forward was a part of football for most of the pre-Super Bowl era, and even in the 70s it was pretty common to see. In the 80s and 90s they put rules in that forbade it, but it was immensely complicated as a) When does a tackle begin, and b) when are you pushing a guy vs. blocking a guy? At the HS land college level when a runner is stood up, offensive players around him are supposed to try to block the tackler off of the runner and "push the pile" at least a little bit. In an open field situation this is somewhat obvious, but when you get into the area around the line of scrimmage - as you can imagine - it gets immensely complex.

OK, so in the early 2000s they changed the rules back - you could push a guy, but you could NOT pull a guy (this is rarely called, btw, but nor is "the first player to put downward pressure on the ball has possession" in a fumble situation so...).

Why was this play not being run constantly since the early 2000s? Great question. It was...at the HS level and even in a lot of college programs. Most every HS team has a TE or FB on either side of the QB doing exactly what the Eagles have been doing for like.....30+ years at least. But at the professional level I think - and I have no data to support this - that teams were scared of doing this because they were worried about injuring the QB. The Eagles have a rare confluence of having two all-Pros as interior lineman and the third guy (Seomalu) who is very, very strong. In addition, they have a QB who is a bodybuilder (in case you didn't hear that 732 times this season....) so I think they were a bit more confident running it. Also, teams have gotten more and more aware of the value of possession, which I think puts more focus on 3rd and short and 4th and short. But who knows.

So if we decide that this is a bad play (I am not wed to it) then how can we act to prevent it? I don't think that we can do that by forbidding the push. In the early 2000s the league admitted that it was a horrible can of worms and they were going to let guys do it. To understand the can of worms, just imagine this forum every Monday with lots of photos of Patriots D-linemen with their arm on a RB and a Center blocking that D-lineman and also having a piece of his body on the RB. Ftr, this happens on about 55% of running plays, minimum. Blocking and pushing in close quarters look ALOT alike.

One possibility would be to allow defenders to actively bind. If defenders could grab each others jerseys, link arms, whatever, and come in to the "tip of the spear" in that formation with other defenders driving into them from the rear, the defense would gain an advantage. This is similar to a rugby ruck or maul, but with only one side being allowed to bind.

One final note....as someone who has coached this at the youth/HS level and scouted it at the HS level for a very long time.....the guys who come in at the end are rarely the difference makers. Sometimes they are, but usually it all comes down to the interior of the line getting low and violent, and the QB attacking the gap when there is momentum. It is not often that the QB gets the extra motion he needs to the point that it gets him over the sticks. That is largely because there is a second or so delay in the TE/FB coming in behind, and at that point the hole is clogged.
How funny would it be to see the Refs call the "no pulling rule in the super bowl"? It would be classic NFL.
 

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag

Internet Cowboy, Turbo Accelerator, tOSU Denier
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
How funny would it be to see the Refs call the "no pulling rule in the super bowl"? It would be classic NFL.
I am not proud to say that my children have hear me scream "HE'S PULLING HIM!!! HE'S PULLING!!!" at the tv a lot over the last decade.

To be honest, I hope they start calling the "downward pressure" rule on fumbles. Everyone and their uncle would lose their shit.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
22,893
Pittsburgh, PA
From the newsletter of Front Office Sports:

Zero Crypto
A year after Crypto.com, FTX, and Coinbase spent millions on ads, there won’t be a single crypto ad during Sunday’s game.

“There’s zero representation in that category on the day at all,” said Mark Evans, executive VP of ad sales for Fox Sports, per The Associated Press.

The digital asset market struggled in the months after those three companies advertised in last year’s Super Bowl, highlighted by FTX’s failure and bankruptcy in November. Sam Bankman-Fried, FTX’s founder and CEO, is currently facing multiple federal fraud and conspiracy charges.

-----

Well, that'll make for less awkward viewing, at least.
 

Ale Xander

Hamilton
SoSH Member
Oct 31, 2013
75,462
From the newsletter of Front Office Sports:

Zero Crypto
A year after Crypto.com, FTX, and Coinbase spent millions on ads, there won’t be a single crypto ad during Sunday’s game.

“There’s zero representation in that category on the day at all,” said Mark Evans, executive VP of ad sales for Fox Sports, per The Associated Press.

The digital asset market struggled in the months after those three companies advertised in last year’s Super Bowl, highlighted by FTX’s failure and bankruptcy in November. Sam Bankman-Fried, FTX’s founder and CEO, is currently facing multiple federal fraud and conspiracy charges.

-----

Well, that'll make for less awkward viewing, at least.
Coinbase has the dominant position now, so no need to advertise/compete.
 

LoweTek

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
May 30, 2005
2,190
Central Florida
I thought the most enlightening thing about deflategate were the comments and talk show calls stating some variation of, "...well of course it's easier to throw a football that weighs less! It's a lot easier to throw an 12 pound ball than a 12.5 or 13 pound football! The Patriots clearly cheated!"