SS possibilities going forward

Petagine in a Bottle

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 13, 2021
12,852
He looked terrible last year, too. A bunch of games in the minors didn't seem to make a difference. I don't see how he'll become acceptable out there now.
Yeah, he can’t get any worse is the same logic that has kept Bobby Dalbec in the organization the last few years. It shouldn’t be that difficult to improve the team around the margins, but it is if you don’t really try.
 

Yelling At Clouds

Post-darwinian
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
3,519
In the Story thread, I said this was unlikely — which I stand by — but through four games, Mayer is playing like a guy who wants his shot! .400/.444/.667 with a homer. Way too early, obviously.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 13, 2021
12,852
In the Story thread, I said this was unlikely — which I stand by — but through four games, Mayer is playing like a guy who wants his shot! .400/.444/.667 with a homer. Way too early, obviously.
Could certainly see the organization calling him up to try to give the team a boost and get fans interested - but seems like a pretty big risk to me. Do we need another player who is potentially not ready to be in the bigs?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
21,218
Maine
Hamilton's obviously been a disaster so far, but are we truly expecting an error per game from him going forward? He's pretty obviously not going to be good, but I think he's also just in a rut to start with and won't actually continue being the worst fielder of all time in the long term.
An error per game is probably unsustainable, but he's never been a good defender. He's been a candidate to move off of SS since before they acquired him. I think he hasn't been moved primarily because the Sox have had a bunch of guys in that category (Duran, for example) and somebody had to play SS for Worcester or Portland. He's not the solution unless he starts producing Rickey Henderson type offense (given his speed and pop) to make up for the defense.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2007
6,673
Could certainly see the organization calling him up to try to give the team a boost and get fans interested - but seems like a pretty big risk to me. Do we need another player who is potentially not ready to be in the bigs?
I think it’s definitely smart to move him up to Pawtucket around June if he continues to rake.
If he continues to play great in AAA then perhaps a late season call-up?
So he can be on the playoffs roster.

Edit- joke on the playoffs PLAYOFFS???
And I meant WooSox!!!
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
21,218
Maine
Could certainly see the organization calling him up to try to give the team a boost and get fans interested - but seems like a pretty big risk to me. Do we need another player who is potentially not ready to be in the bigs?
No chance they call up Mayer until at least June if not later, no matter how well he might be doing in Portland. Just to cite a couple other relatively recent examples of a prospect tearing things up in the minors and seemingly fitting a desperate need with the big club:

Mookie Betts debuted June 29, 2014
Rafael Devers debuted July 25, 2017
Jarren Duran debuted July 17, 2021

Even Tristan Casas, despite 1B being held down by Dalbec and Franchy Cordero most of the season, didn't debut until September 4, 2022. They're not going to rush Mayer to solve SS in April...or May.
 

Harry Hooper

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
34,665
Perhaps they were planning to get Refsnyder back in the OF mix and then move Rafaela to SS. Don't think they can wait if they want to claim they're trying to win.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 13, 2021
12,852
No chance they call up Mayer until at least June if not later, no matter how well he might be doing in Portland. Just to cite a couple other relatively recent examples of a prospect tearing things up in the minors and seemingly fitting a desperate need with the big club:

Mookie Betts debuted June 29, 2014
Rafael Devers debuted July 25, 2017
Jarren Duran debuted July 17, 2021

Even Tristan Casas, despite 1B being held down by Dalbec and Franchy Cordero most of the season, didn't debut until September 4, 2022. They're not going to rush Mayer to solve SS in April...or May.
I don’t entirely disagree; but the state of the Red Sox in 2024 is a lot different than it was in 14, 17, and 21. Interest seems to be fairly low right now; if there are lots of empty seats and waning ratings, they may do things they don’t have done previously.

It also feels like teams are much more aggressive with top prospects than they were in the past.
 

Quatchie

New Member
Jul 23, 2009
83
I don’t entirely disagree; but the state of the Red Sox in 2024 is a lot different than it was in 14, 17, and 21. Interest seems to be fairly low right now; if there are lots of empty seats and waning ratings, they may do things they don’t have done previously.

It also feels like teams are much more aggressive with top prospects than they were in the past.
This is the correct answer. He will be up sooner rather than later. This team doesn't have the talent to be competitive and they are going to need to sell tickets. I'd also suggest he gets a surprising contract as part of his call up.
 

Yelling At Clouds

Post-darwinian
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
3,519
Since I started this, I'll clarify: last year, Mayer hit poorly upon his callup to AA and then was shut down with a shoulder injury (which, we presume, explained the bad hitting). As a result, I'd think the organization would want him to sustain some success at AA before calling him up, and I'd be surprised if they skipped him past AAA. That said, the hot start is encouraging, and if he can keep this up (well, maybe not this, but if he keeps hitting well), then maybe a Fenway appearance later this summer is on the table. But "if" and "maybe" are the key words there.
 

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
Since I started this, I'll clarify: last year, Mayer hit poorly upon his callup to AA and then was shut down with a shoulder injury (which, we presume, explained the bad hitting). As a result, I'd think the organization would want him to sustain some success at AA before calling him up, and I'd be surprised if they skipped him past AAA. That said, the hot start is encouraging, and if he can keep this up (well, maybe not this, but if he keeps hitting well), then maybe a Fenway appearance later this summer is on the table. But "if" and "maybe" are the key words there.
Your first two sentences are exactly how I feel. If he continues to impress (I mean REALLY impress) on offense and defense he should definitely be tested at the AAA level before being promoted to the majors. If all goes well there, perhaps he gets a shot late in the season.
 

curly2

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 8, 2003
4,936
They need to start playing Rafaela there immediately. Hamilton is pressing and I think he's better than he's been the last couple of days, but as others have also mentioned, he is not a shortstop. Hamilton, Valdez and Reyes are all backups at best.

Plus Rafaela's long-term value might be as a hybrid CF/SS. If Roman Anthony is truly a center fielder--and he's playing center now for Worcester--the team's two best prospects are a center fielder and shortstop, which means it might be good to have Rafaela able to play both. )I realize maybe Anthony gets moved to right because you need a guy with the ability of a center fielder in Fenway's right field.)
 

chrisfont9

Member
SoSH Member
Perhaps they were planning to get Refsnyder back in the OF mix and then move Rafaela to SS. Don't think they can wait if they want to claim they're trying to win.
This is my guess. I don't love moving Rafaela but the options are all disintegrating. Mayer isn't coming up prematurely. If he's killing AA for a few months then maybe it ceases to be premature, but tbd.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
21,218
Maine
Since I started this, I'll clarify: last year, Mayer hit poorly upon his callup to AA and then was shut down with a shoulder injury (which, we presume, explained the bad hitting). As a result, I'd think the organization would want him to sustain some success at AA before calling him up, and I'd be surprised if they skipped him past AAA. That said, the hot start is encouraging, and if he can keep this up (well, maybe not this, but if he keeps hitting well), then maybe a Fenway appearance later this summer is on the table. But "if" and "maybe" are the key words there.
Agreed with this 100%. It's why I brought up the previous examples of Betts, Devers, and Duran. They all began those seasons at AA and ripped it up, then moved up to AAA in late May/early June for relatively short stays. Basically just long enough to show they weren't overmatched at that level, then they got the call to the bigs. Can't imagine Mayer is treated any differently no matter how desperate the situation might be in Boston.

There's certainly no chance Mayer gets moved up to Worcester let alone Boston on the strength of a just a week or two of hot play for the Sea Dogs. I expect he'll be in Portland until at least Memorial Day, then if he's truly excelling, they'll move him up to Worcester. If he shows signs of dominance there, which I'd define as at least 2-3 sustained weeks of great production, they'll probably bring him to Boston. Best case scenario where he's OPSing over 1.000 and playing spectacular SS, that's probably late June or early July. If it's just a steady and strong performance at each level, maybe he's up by September.
 

moondog80

heart is two sizes two small
SoSH Member
Sep 20, 2005
8,337
Mayer's earliest plausible callup date is still far enough into the future that it should not preclude them from making move on SS for this year (other than not bringing in a guy with more than one year on his deal, I suppose). If they don't think Andrus is an upgrade, fine, but don't not do it because of Mayer.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
25,601
Miami (oh, Miami!)
No chance they call up Mayer until at least June if not later, no matter how well he might be doing in Portland. Just to cite a couple other relatively recent examples of a prospect tearing things up in the minors and seemingly fitting a desperate need with the big club:

Mookie Betts debuted June 29, 2014
Rafael Devers debuted July 25, 2017
Jarren Duran debuted July 17, 2021

Even Tristan Casas, despite 1B being held down by Dalbec and Franchy Cordero most of the season, didn't debut until September 4, 2022. They're not going to rush Mayer to solve SS in April...or May.
FWIW, Casas was injured (ankle) in mid-May of '21, after starting at AAA. After he rehabbed, he was put back in AAA from late July until Sept. 2nd. And it's not like he was scuffing either. His August OPS was .993. He got a total of about 260 AAA ABs in 2021.

All that said, if he was healthy, I doubt they would have called him up until the summer.
 

Harry Hooper

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
34,665
From Abraham, Ron Washington on Grissom:


Grissom started 19 games at shortstop for the Braves from 2022-23. Atlanta also gave him far more starts at shortstop (231) then second base (50) in the minors.

“He’s going to be a hell of a player,” said Angels manager Ron Washington, who worked closely with Grissom as Atlanta’s infield coach. “He has that will and because of that, he will find a way.”

Washington said the Braves were high on Grissom’s potential but preferred Orlando Arcia at shortstop and Ozzie Albies at second base. So they used Grissom to trade for Chris Sale.

“[Grissom] can play shortstop,” Washington said. “The problem we had with him was making decisions and his inexperience. We didn’t have time to wait for him. For me, the best thing that happened for him was getting traded. He has an opportunity to grow in Boston.”
 

nvalvo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
21,852
Rogers Park
Feels like he should focus on 2b? We keep having to put guys in the wrong positions. I’d rather have 2b solidified and get by at SS (maybe grab a steady vet) than switch the plan for Grissom.
If we're moving someone, I'd rather have it be the defensive savant Rafaela than the merely respectable defender in Grissom.
 

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
Feels like he should focus on 2b? We keep having to put guys in the wrong positions. I’d rather have 2b solidified and get by at SS (maybe grab a steady vet) than switch the plan for Grissom.
His rehab should give us a clue as to how they will use him. I'm not sure if putting him at SS would be putting him in the wrong position, but I do agree with letting him establish himself at 2B and either move Rafaela or find an established defender to play SS to bridge the gap to Mayer in 2025. If it's the former we may be waiting on RFsnyder to return.
 

chrisfont9

Member
SoSH Member
His rehab should give us a clue as to how they will use him. I'm not sure if putting him at SS would be putting him in the wrong position, but I do agree with letting him establish himself at 2B and either move Rafaela or find an established defender to play SS to bridge the gap to Mayer in 2025. If it's the former we may be waiting on RFsnyder to return.
Yeah, agree with you and nvalvo, Rafaela can move positions more easily I'd think. It's about guys feeling confident where they are in the field, and while I can't read anyone's mind, my hunch is that Rafaela feels confident in both CF and SS, while Grissom wasn't really there at SS and they are building his confidence now at 2b.
 

Cassvt2023

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 17, 2023
628
Hallelujah!!

I saw this coming when Cora said Abreu would be seeing more outfield time, especially against RHP, after Saturday's game. Hopefully it allows everyone to settle into some immediate stability.
Couldn't agree more. Abreu and Yoshida both look to be heating up, and I love O'Neill in the 3 hole. The only thing I wish Cora would consider in the near term at least, is putting Casas at 2 and Devers at 4.
 

CoffeeNerdness

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 6, 2012
9,007
Also, Dave O'Brien was hinting at this hard yesterday and you know he wouldn't be talking it up unless he got word from someone in management. Guy probably takes 15 minutes to decide on a breakfast order before ordering his usual egg white omelet with a side of white toast.
 

nvalvo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
21,852
Rogers Park
Also, Dave O'Brien was hinting at this hard yesterday and you know he wouldn't be talking it up unless he got word from someone in management. Guy probably takes 15 minutes to decide on a breakfast order before ordering his usual egg white omelet with a side of white toast.
I don't really think it's his job to be more than very subtly opinionated about this sort of thing. I see a News/Opinion split between the PBP and Color roles.
 

cantor44

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2020
1,654
Chicago, IL
Man, it makes so much sense to put Rafaela at short under the circumstances (that is, if they aren't going to acquire a competent veteran dude). I'm surprised it took this long.
 

chrisfont9

Member
SoSH Member
Also, Dave O'Brien was hinting at this hard yesterday and you know he wouldn't be talking it up unless he got word from someone in management. Guy probably takes 15 minutes to decide on a breakfast order before ordering his usual egg white omelet with a side of white toast.
Was Rafaela taking grounders at SS before the game yesterday? That would've been a tell.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2007
6,673
Man, it makes so much sense to put Rafaela at short under the circumstances (that is, if they aren't going to acquire a competent veteran dude). I'm surprised it took this long.
Duran, O'Neill and Abreu form a pretty good outfield. The downgrade from Rafaela to Duran or (preferably) O'Neill in CF to having him at SS isn't going to hurt as much as continuing with the Blizzard there. I'm also guessing that means that whatsisname that started one day before hitting the DL is going to be out for a while?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
21,218
Maine
Was Rafaela taking grounders at SS before the game yesterday? That would've been a tell.
Wouldn't surprise me if he takes balls in the infield and outfield every day. We've already seen him move from CF to 2B to fifth infielder and back again a few times. It would make sense that he prepares for all possibilities every day.
 

sezwho

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
2,075
Isle of Plum
Wouldn't surprise me if he takes balls in the infield and outfield every day. We've already seen him move from CF to 2B to fifth infielder and back again a few times. It would make sense that he prepares for all possibilities every day.
I’m still holding out hope, without any real evidence that shuffling slows development, that he can settle into A position this year, whatever it is. I was behind the move to SS, essentially as necessity, but don’t want him as utility guy unless we know there’s no bat to develop anyway.
 

geoflin

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 26, 2004
721
Melrose MA
If O'Neill had been playing center and Duran left as many of us here would prefer then O'Neill wouldn't have gotten injured today. Who knows what might have happened if Duran were in left but not what did happen.
 

sezwho

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
2,075
Isle of Plum
If O'Neill had been playing center and Duran left as many of us here would prefer then O'Neill wouldn't have gotten injured today. Who knows what might have happened if Duran were in left but not what did happen.
Wasn’t able to watch - was this egregious OF play related?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
21,218
Maine
Wasn’t able to watch - was this egregious OF play related?
No. Pop fly in shallow left field. O'Neill came in, Rafaela and Devers went out. Rafaela backed off, the other guys didn't. O'Neill collided with Devers as Devers made the catch, hitting his face on the back of Devers' head. The culprit was poor communication more than anything. It was arguably O'Neill's ball but either Devers didn't hear him call it or ignored him.
 

sezwho

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
2,075
Isle of Plum
No. Pop fly in shallow left field. O'Neill came in, Rafaela and Devers went out. Rafaela backed off, the other guys didn't. O'Neill collided with Devers as Devers made the catch, hitting his face on the back of Devers' head. The culprit was poor communication more than anything. It was arguably O'Neill's ball but either Devers didn't hear him call it or ignored him.
Thank you for the summary…airports.

Edit, if anyone hasn’t seen I found a link. It looks rough.
 
Last edited:

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
I’m still holding out hope, without any real evidence that shuffling slows development, that he can settle into A position this year, whatever it is. I was behind the move to SS, essentially as necessity, but don’t want him as utility guy unless we know there’s no bat to develop anyway.
I'm going to throw a few ifs out there. If Mayer and Anthony are as advertised and crack the lineup next year at SS and CF (which some here say is RA's natural position) what might Rafaela's best value be to this team. If Story's unable to come back, what might Rafaela's best value be to the team? There are more than a couple of guys that are multi-positional assets who aren't relegated to being bench players. Utility men are valuable, especially utility men who can be worked into a regular rotation. ATM we seem stuck with needing to play certain players because there are no other in-house options. Imagine for a moment that you have Mayer, Story, Grissom and Rafaela all as options in the MI as well as Duran, Anthony, O'Neill, Abreu and Rafaela as options in the OF. Granted not all of them may be here or healthy, but do you also notice the absence of the names Valdez, Hamilton, Reyes and Refsnyder?
 

Cassvt2023

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 17, 2023
628
I'm going to throw a few ifs out there. If Mayer and Anthony are as advertised and crack the lineup next year at SS and CF (which some here say is RA's natural position) what might Rafaela's best value be to this team. If Story's unable to come back, what might Rafaela's best value be to the team? There are more than a couple of guys that are multi-positional assets who aren't relegated to being bench players. Utility men are valuable, especially utility men who can be worked into a regular rotation. ATM we seem stuck with needing to play certain players because there are no other in-house options. Imagine for a moment that you have Mayer, Story, Grissom and Rafaela all as options in the MI as well as Duran, Anthony, O'Neill, Abreu and Rafaela as options in the OF. Granted not all of them may be here or healthy, but do you also notice the absence of the names Valdez, Hamilton, Reyes and Refsnyder?
i think Anthony and Rafaela manning CF and RF sounds good. Especially in Fenway, you kind of need two defensive CF types. Put the guy with more range/speed in CF and guy with better arm in RF…not sure which is which right now
 

simplicio

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 11, 2012
5,848
I'm really curious about changed for Wilyer. He looked completely lost on D until this weekend, now he's like a different guy.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2007
6,673
SSS but Wilyer looks like about a 3-bWAR player defensively this year. He was really good this weekend.
It’s really not hard to see a very bright future for the team…. It’s that it’s the space between 2020 and then (2026?) that are frustrating and it seems like it should have started at least a year ago.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
21,218
Maine
I'm really curious about changed for Wilyer. He looked completely lost on D until this weekend, now he's like a different guy.
Comfort? He's always profiled as a solid defender, particularly on the corners. Could be he got off to a slow start from nerves or maybe he was pressing a bit because it looked like he might be the odd man out in the outfield. Possibly it's as simple as Cora reassuring him he had a place and a role with the team. Cora said prior to today's game that moving Rafaela to SS was more about getting Abreu more consistent playing time than it was about solidifying SS defense. Has to make a young player feel good to hear the manager say that.
 

bosockboy

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
20,501
St. Louis, MO
I'm going to throw a few ifs out there. If Mayer and Anthony are as advertised and crack the lineup next year at SS and CF (which some here say is RA's natural position) what might Rafaela's best value be to this team. If Story's unable to come back, what might Rafaela's best value be to the team? There are more than a couple of guys that are multi-positional assets who aren't relegated to being bench players. Utility men are valuable, especially utility men who can be worked into a regular rotation. ATM we seem stuck with needing to play certain players because there are no other in-house options. Imagine for a moment that you have Mayer, Story, Grissom and Rafaela all as options in the MI as well as Duran, Anthony, O'Neill, Abreu and Rafaela as options in the OF. Granted not all of them may be here or healthy, but do you also notice the absence of the names Valdez, Hamilton, Reyes and Refsnyder?
Rafaela=Tony Phillips.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 13, 2021
12,852
Phillips was an excellent hitter with an incredible eye, though. 14% BB rate / 16% K rate. Rafaela may be able to equal Tony’s defensive versatility, but not sure they could profile more differently as hitters.
 

loneredseat

New Member
Dec 8, 2023
94
I don't know if this is still the approach used by the rays, but I know a couple years back they had what seemed to be an entire team of solid players, and they all got roughly the same playing time. This is an interesting approach, I think, and one that I could imagine fitting the team well, when mayer and anthony arrive.
 

E5 Yaz

polka king
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 25, 2002
91,402
Oregon
Callis-Dykstra-Mayo suggest it might be time
https://www.mlb.com/news/prospect-callup-candidates-for-each-team-2024?t=mlb-pipeline-coverage
Red Sox: Marcelo Mayer, SS (No. 1/MLB No. 15)
With Trevor Story out for the season following shoulder surgery, the Red Sox's middle-infield situation is up in the air. Mayer, the No. 4 overall choice in the 2021 Draft (Boston's highest pick since 1967), would offer an immediate offensive and defensive upgrade over current shortstop starter David Hamilton. Besides his speed, all of Mayer's tools are solid or better and he's off to a .344/.371/.500 start at Double-A.