SS possibilities going forward

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If we got DeJong we would probably still have Reyes. If it’s defense first we want, it has to be DeJong. There’s also Mateo with the Orioles and Nick Allen with the A’s, but those guys would be way more expensive.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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I can see an argument for one or the other given a club's needs, but there is no world where the contemporary DeJong's bat is hands-down better than Pablo Reyes.
Edited down, but to answer - Because Reyes has a full career sample size of 525 PA's, so I wasn't looking to further dilute the sample size down to the 300 PA's he's had the last 3plus seasons. But I'm more than fine saying "they both suck offensively" and Reyes MIGHT suck a little less (or he might suck just as much because he's never played more than 71 games a season in his career).

The bigger point being DeJong is - by every metric I've been able to find - a far better defensive player. So I'd rather have the very good defensive player and atrocious hitter as opposed to the "bad fielder AND bad hitter." Or, put another way, give me the guy that does at least one thing well, particularly when that one thing is play defense at an incredibly important position on the defensive scale.
 

Rovin Romine

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Edited down,
Never a problem.

but to answer - Because Reyes has a full career sample size of 525 PA's, so I wasn't looking to further dilute the sample size down to the 300 PA's he's had the last 3plus seasons. But I'm more than fine saying "they both suck offensively" and Reyes MIGHT suck a little less (or he might suck just as much because he's never played more than 71 games a season in his career).

The bigger point being DeJong is - by every metric I've been able to find - a far better defensive player. So I'd rather have the very good defensive player and atrocious hitter as opposed to the "bad fielder AND bad hitter." Or, put another way, give me the guy that does at least one thing well, particularly when that one thing is play defense at an incredibly important position on the defensive scale.
I agree with you that DeJong is the better defensive player at SS - no question.

However, trying to make reasonable guesses to both player's current level of offensive ability is part of the overall equation. It's always going to be guesswork, but some guesswork is more reasonable than others. I think you should consider getting off the career numbers bus, at least as far as predictability goes. Many players age and get injured and eventually have a baseline that's different from what they did when they broke in or had a peak season.

Here. . .absent some kind of explanation as to why it would be different, I'd expect DeJong's age 30 season to be more in line with his age 29 season, which was in line with his age 28 season and his age 27 season. Reyes is harder to predict, but his recent AAA numbers seem consistent with what he did last year. YMMV, of course.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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Never a problem.



I agree with you that DeJong is the better defensive player at SS - no question.

However, trying to make reasonable guesses to both player's current level of offensive ability is part of the overall equation. It's always going to be guesswork, but some guesswork is more reasonable than others. I think you should consider getting off the career numbers bus, at least as far as predictability goes. Many players age and get injured and eventually have a baseline that's different from what they did when they broke in or had a peak season.

Here. . .absent some kind of explanation as to why it would be different, I'd expect DeJong's age 30 season to be more in line with his age 29 season, which was in line with his age 28 season and his age 27 season. Reyes is harder to predict, but his recent AAA numbers seem consistent with what he did last year. YMMV, of course.

If they both had anywhere near the same sample size in terms of at bats (or if Reyes were 25 instead of 30), I would.

Reyes is just one of those guys that I tend to think the reason he never gets more at bats than he gets is that he's not very good. I could of course be wrong. But in a sample size that is already incredibly small (Reyes being 30 and having had only 525 PAs, I feel that making the sample size even smaller (3 years) doesn't help matters.

But either way - I'm more than happy to say its entirely possible that Reyes simply "stinks" with the bat as opposed to DeJong (whom I fully admit "sucks"). Though at that position (and ostensibly being book-ended by lets say "questionable" defense at 3b and 2b (bullish on Grissom, but admit that we just don't know) I think the team absolutely needs the defensive presence.
 

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I’d rather move Rafaella to SS, where he played the majority of his pro games as a + defensive SS, and switch O’Neil or Duran, who have played credible (if not fantastic ) CF in the past. It also gets Abreu more playing time, which I’d think the “you have to play the young guys to see what we’ve got” crowd would be for. This looks like the least downgrade we can make to both offense and defense with the pieces we have.

With Romy up (and Cora pouring some water on the idea of moving Rafaella) he looks like the next best option. I’m not sure why he wasn’t called over Hamilton in the first place. I don’t think Hamilton can really play SS; IIRC (based on Sox Prospects) it’s mostly an arm strength issue, which is why he’s been pegged as a 2Bman. Maybe they also want a defensive replacement for Valdez?
 

simplicio

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I’d rather move Rafaella to SS, where he played the majority of his pro games as a + defensive SS, and switch O’Neil or Duran, who have played credible (if not fantastic ) CF in the past. It also gets Abreu more playing time, which I’d think the “you have to play the young guys to see what we’ve got” crowd would be for. This looks like the least downgrade we can make to both offense and defense with the pieces we have.

With Romy up (and Cora pouring some water on the idea of moving Rafaella) he looks like the next best option. I’m not sure why he wasn’t called over Hamilton in the first place. I don’t think Hamilton can really play SS; IIRC (based on Sox Prospects) it’s mostly an arm strength issue, which is why he’s been pegged as a 2Bman. Maybe they also want a defensive replacement for Valdez?
I think the current alignment that makes the most sense is Romy 2B Blizzard SS (or vice versa, but I think those are where they've both played most), cause Valdez has looked so lost at the plate (I think his defense has honestly been fine).
 

Rovin Romine

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It’s Romy Gonzalez for now. Unless Story is out for the year AND a veteran is available for one season, then we are looking at internal solutions over just taking wild swings at guys like Mondesi.
While it makes sense to see if there's an available player that fits, I find it a little weird people are fixated on external solutions. Grass is always greener I suppose.

Hamilton is a prospect with upside. He's 26 and lost a development year to injury, and a second to COVID. He started playing pro ball in 2021 and his development was good enough to move him along fairly normally. He enjoyed a good year in AAA last year. (His first at that level.)

Romy isn't the typical AAAA break-glass internal option. He's more or less been derailed by injuries these past two seasons. So he may have some upside he hasn't been able to show in the majors yet.

It maybe that neither works out, but there's no point in having these guys on the roster in the first place if you don't initially use them for this kind of eventuality. (The major caveat being that if internals say these are no-go players at the ML level, sure, you go out and get someone.)
 

kazuneko

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I’d rather move Rafaella to SS, where he played the majority of his pro games as a + defensive SS, and switch O’Neil or Duran, who have played credible (if not fantastic ) CF in the past. It also gets Abreu more playing time, which I’d think the “you have to play the young guys to see what we’ve got” crowd would be for. This looks like the least downgrade we can make to both offense and defense with the pieces we have.
Without factoring in issues like how a switch to SS might impact Rafaela (shifting him around when he's still trying to adjust to the majors isn't ideal) this seems like the logical choice. From the respective of run prevention, isn’t SS more valuable than CF? If I’m wrong about that I guess it could change my perspective.
If Story is out for the season, it might also make make sense to check in on Yu Chang who should be recovered from his oblique injury in a week or so. He was signed to a minor league deal with the Rays but it’s not clear they are very committed to keeping him. His career OAA of +15 in 530 chances is pretty spectacular, potentially giving the team something similar to what the Sox got from Story in 23’.
 

simplicio

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Our MI depth is better than OF at this point; Abreu simply hasn't shown himself to be a guy you want out there every day, where between Valdez/Romy/Blizzard/Grissom we should be able to find a workable MI solution without moving Rafa in.

I don't see any enticing reason to go outside the org right now, Chang can't hit and his injury also meant he missed ST so I think he's a ways off from contributing positively anywhere. Just ride it out till Grissom is back and then give him some time to settle in.
 

GlucoDoc

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Do we have an update on Story's status? Last I could find he was saying "significant injury" but he was on the 10 day IL. I don't believe it will be only 10 days. But if we are looking at a 6-8 week window in a season that is interestingly giving us nice looks at the in-house options at many positions, taking that route makes sense. The permutations of this have been discussed. If, however, Story turns out to be more in the "out for the season" range, then a longer term solution might make sense. Still, try out in-house (Romy, see what happens with Grissom returns, etc.) but then be watching to see if an outside alternative becomes available. I think that the fact that there are no rumblings (at least as best we can tell) re: looking outside yet may mean that it is either that shorter window or that they don't really know yet (likey the latter). (Or they are looking, but it has been kept quiet!)
 

absintheofmalaise

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Do we have an update on Story's status? Last I could find he was saying "significant injury" but he was on the 10 day IL. I don't believe it will be only 10 days. But if we are looking at a 6-8 week window in a season that is interestingly giving us nice looks at the in-house options at many positions, taking that route makes sense. The permutations of this have been discussed. If, however, Story turns out to be more in the "out for the season" range, then a longer term solution might make sense. Still, try out in-house (Romy, see what happens with Grissom returns, etc.) but then be watching to see if an outside alternative becomes available. I think that the fact that there are no rumblings (at least as best we can tell) re: looking outside yet may mean that it is either that shorter window or that they don't really know yet (likey the latter). (Or they are looking, but it has been kept quiet!)
From the Story thread:
 

Rovin Romine

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Hamilton was uneven today. Nice double play, a great stop that could have been better, and a clear fielding error. Seemed to be in the right place at the right time.

Romy PH'd and was left in at SS. Good defensive play to range out on a ball. Nothing else really stood out.

Consistency is probably what we're looking for here.
 

Daniel_Son

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I think we have to see how Hamilton and Romy can handle SS duties. We also have Reyes. Once Refsnyder is back, they might be able to play Rafaela at short more frequently.

If none of the internal options work, it might be easier to grab another outfielder than a starting-caliber shortstop.
 

KillerBs

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The team should already well understand if David Hamilton or Pablo Reyes is a major league average defensive SS or not.

I like these guys, but we can't really be expected to watch another half season or more with a sieve at SS.

Maybe add Brandon Crawford to a list of potential acquisitions. In StL and not playing much.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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The team should already well understand if David Hamilton or Pablo Reyes is a major league average defensive SS or not.

I like these guys, but we can't really be expected to watch another half season or more with a sieve at SS.

Maybe add Brandon Crawford to a list of potential acquisitions. In StL and not playing much.
Crawford's not playing much for a reason. He hasn't been a decent defender in a couple years (-6 and -14 DRS the last two years). His bat is toast. .216/.294/.331/.625, 76 OPS+ since the start of 2022 (this year included). He really isn't an upgrade over what they have now.
 

KillerBs

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He was significantly positive on OAA last year, and for multiple consecutive years preceding so it appears OAA differs from DRS in this case, whatever that may mean. Surely the Sox have the capacity to determine if Crawford is still a B/B+ defensive SS, which sadly again it seems we desperately need pronto.
 

pjheff

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Our MI depth is better than OF at this point; Abreu simply hasn't shown himself to be a guy you want out there every day, where between Valdez/Romy/Blizzard/Grissom we should be able to find a workable MI solution without moving Rafa in.
Facts not in evidence. None of these guys has shown himself to be a guy you want out there every day or a workable solution. All should get opportunities to do so, and playing time should be allotted to those who continue to earn it.
 

jon abbey

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Tim Anderson's contract is up this year and the Marlins aren't going anywhere. I'm sure he can be had. Obviously not someone to get excited about, but we aren't looking for a solution beyond this season.
He was ranked 141st out of 142 SSs last year in DRS, which is pretty crazy as that is almost 5 SSs per team.

https://www.fieldingbible.com/drs-leaders/players?position=6

Edit: OK, a little less crazy as it's a counting stat and he was 16th in innings played, but still, not good.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Any familiar name that "can be had" likely holds that status for a reason. Acquiring one of them would probably make us briefly feel a little better about the situation but ultimately not noticeably improve the roster.
 

chrisfont9

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Any familiar name that "can be had" likely holds that status for a reason. Acquiring one of them would probably make us briefly feel a little better about the situation but ultimately not noticeably improve the roster.
Yeah, and to JonAbbey too, you'd really just be looking to squeeze out a few months of revived play from a declining veteran. Given that he's a 30-year-old former silver slugger, it would be worth seeing if he might appreciate a change of scenery, knowing that the answer is probably not as far as him suddenly recovering his old power stroke.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Yeah, and to JonAbbey too, you'd really just be looking to squeeze out a few months of revived play from a declining veteran. Given that he's a 30-year-old former silver slugger, it would be worth seeing if he might appreciate a change of scenery, knowing that the answer is probably not as far as him suddenly recovering his old power stroke.
I understand what you're saying. If we're gambling on a change of scenery making a difference, I might first target someone who hasn't had a change in a bit rather than guys who've barely had time to unpack their boxes with their current teams.
 

DeadlySplitter

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This is a serious, serious issue for this particular roster - to the point of, based on what I saw the first 7 games, I think they had a shot at contending for a WC spot with a 150+ game Story at SS, vs. very bleak odds of that at the moment.

I wasn't a proponent of Rafaela to SS, but after Hamliton looked like the minor leaguer he is on D today, I think you have to strongly consider it. Did not like reading that Grissom will be getting reps as well, but there are over 1350 innings left at short to cover.
 
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Cassvt2023

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I think we have to go outside the org and make a trade to solidify SS for this season. I'd like to see them pry Adames away from Brewers, who obviously won't pay for him after this season. As discussed above, they have MI prospects that can step in. BTV (i know, grain of salt and all) shows Adames at 11.1 and Nick Yorke and Angel Bastardo at 15.5. He'd solidify SS on D and provide some RH power that they desperately need. Hell send them some $$ as well, but it seems like they could get him without giving up one of the top 3, ATM...
 

absintheofmalaise

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I think we have to go outside the org and make a trade to solidify SS for this season. I'd like to see them pry Adames away from Brewers, who obviously won't pay for him after this season. As discussed above, they have MI prospects that can step in. BTV (i know, grain of salt and all) shows Adames at 11.1 and Nick Yorke and Angel Bastardo at 15.5. He'd solidify SS on D and provide some RH power that they desperately need. Hell send them some $$ as well, but it seems like they could get him without giving up one of the top 3, ATM...
Out of curiosity, who would you be willing to give up in a trade for Adames?
 

Margo McCready

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With the sinker/slider guys in the rotation, the inconsistent Rafael Devers at 3rd, and the unknown of Grissom presumably at 2nd, it seems absolutely essential to have an above average defender at shortstop in order to have any shot at competing this year. I really hope they can find and plug in a Pokey Reese/Yu Chang-type that can really help keep the pitch counts down by making the plays until Story or Mayer are ready to claim the position. I wouldn’t even worry about a black hole bat hitting 9th since Grissom seems reasonably likely to replace Story’s production from the right side of the plate.

I’d love to be wrong but David Hamilton does not look like that guy. Can Romy Gonzalez be that guy? (Apologies; I’ve been trying unsuccessfully to find minor league fielding stats like OAA or DRS as supporting evidence one way or the other. Are these available anywhere?)
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Who is a realistic target to acquire though? Ahmed and Adames are starting SS for teams that are looking to contend, can’t imagine those teams are really interested in trading their starting SS two weeks into the season. Yu Chang would be a target, but he’s injured. Tim Anderson doesn’t appear to be able to play baseball anymore. I think the Sox are going to have to deal with what they have for now; the only players available are going to be very similar to Romy Gonzalez.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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No way is Adames at all realistic. He's paid too much for this year's ostensible budget and I doubt there is any scenario in which the Brewers would trade him right now unless someone makes a stupid offer. This year's team isn't good enough to make a stupid offer on to fix the SS problem.

Who is a realistic target to acquire though? Ahmed and Adames are starting SS for teams that are looking to contend, can’t imagine those teams are really interested in trading their starting SS two weeks into the season. Yu Chang would be a target, but he’s injured. Tim Anderson doesn’t appear to be able to play baseball anymore. I think the Sox are going to have to deal with what they have for now; the only players available are going to be very similar to Romy Gonzalez.
I've said it upthread, but I'd like to see them see what Paul DeJong would cost from the ChiSox. It can't be much. He isn't getting paid jack. The White Sox are horrid and he's (even at this point) just a "quasi" starter there (started in half their games) and Colson Montgomery is already in AAA and will probably be up at some point this year - though they may keep him down to play the game next year of the extra pick and all that.

Very good defensive SS and would at least show the team that they're TRYING to address the fact that Story went down.
 

Fishy1

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I'd like to see what Romy can do with his shoulder fixed up.before they go and get DeJong, who posted a wrc+ of like 60 in his last 600 PA. I know it's batting average, but the guy has been sub .200 since 2021.

I agree that SS defense is imperative, but before we start trading for guys who can't even start for the White Sox, let's see what the ex-prospect who has options, pedigree, and pop can do. It's possible there's a real player in there.
 

DanoooME

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Is Jose Iglesias still kicking around somewhere? I'm only half-kidding. If we want all-glove, he might be the way to go. Fake edit: He's in Syracuse playing in the Mets system after spending part of last year with SD's AAA club before opting out.

And I don't think DeJong can be traded until June 15th since he was signed as a free agent before this season.

Ahmed might be available after the Giants get Luciano enough time in the minors, but not until then. And even then his defense has really slipped the last couple of years.

Not sure there's much else available that wouldn't cost significant money and/or prospects. There are teams with potential excess, but naturally they have to be division rivals like the Rays and Orioles. Only other possibility in that vein is the Guardians.
 

Benj4ever

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I’d love to be wrong but David Hamilton does not look like that guy. Can Romy Gonzalez be that guy? (Apologies; I’ve been trying unsuccessfully to find minor league fielding stats like OAA or DRS as supporting evidence one way or the other. Are these available anywhere?)
Yeah, Hamilton is very quickly proving the Red Sox wrong. Who knows if Romy can be the guy, but he's the next man up. The Sox are very quickly running out of options.
 

Max Power

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Now that the Orioles are bringing up Jackson Holliday, they seem to have a glut at middle infield. I wonder if they'd take a bag of balls for Jorge Mateo?
 

YTF

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I think we have to go outside the org and make a trade to solidify SS for this season. I'd like to see them pry Adames away from Brewers, who obviously won't pay for him after this season. As discussed above, they have MI prospects that can step in. BTV (i know, grain of salt and all) shows Adames at 11.1 and Nick Yorke and Angel Bastardo at 15.5. He'd solidify SS on D and provide some RH power that they desperately need. Hell send them some $$ as well, but it seems like they could get him without giving up one of the top 3, ATM...
This team is not sending $$$ and on top of paying Adames' $12.5.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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If Rafaela isn’t going to hit, he’s a lot more appealing at SS since they can replace him in the OF with a better bat. I also think it’s worth getting a long look at him at SS, if he can successfully play there, doesn’t it open up a bunch of options for the team in the future?
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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If Rafaela isn’t going to hit, he’s a lot more appealing at SS since they can replace him in the OF with a better bat. I also think it’s worth getting a long look at him at SS, if he can successfully play there, doesn’t it open up a bunch of options for the team in the future?
The first part of your post sounds like a decision that Rafaela made sometime after the season started.... weird phrasing? But otherwise I agree and think it makes the most sense to move him to SS and O'Neill to CF. Abreu in RF (maybe he'll start hitting with some consistent plate appearances) and Duran in LF where other than his error, he actually has looked pretty good there and his arm isn't a liability.
I personally think Rafaela will start hitting but there's going to be another 3-4 weeks of shitty adjustment time... let's call it the Pedroia-Casas Adjustment Period... when everyone on the board here wants him to go to AAA again and face inferior pitching and somehow adjust there to ML caliber pitching.
I doubt he'll ever be a great hitter, but I could see him very easily hit .300 with a .340 OBP and .440 SLG. That's not an All Star but with his defense, that's pretty borderline.
 

sezwho

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Convinced me. I was in the ‘don’t mess with CR’ camp by turning him into a utility infielder, but I heard great points from Lou(assuming he’s the best player available):

1 He can play SS this year and pick up the OF glove next offseason, it’s not exactly temporary swapping around
2 What about the pitchers development? They can’t really pitch to their strengths (do your job!) with a butcher at SS
 

kazuneko

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Convinced me. I was in the ‘don’t mess with CR’ camp by turning him into a utility infielder, but I heard great points from Lou(assuming he’s the best player available):

1 He can play SS this year and pick up the OF glove next offseason, it’s not exactly temporary swapping around
2 What about the pitchers development? They can’t really pitch to their strengths (do your job!) with a butcher at SS
My only fear with this is that Cora will align the OF to be Durran in CF, Abreu in RF and O'Neil in LF (which he seems inclined towards). As far as I can tell that puts the best outfielder in the least demanding position and the worst OF in the most demanding position. Not sure why they haven't been using O'Neil in CF and Duran in LF when Rafaela sits.
 

Rovin Romine

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Convinced me. I was in the ‘don’t mess with CR’ camp by turning him into a utility infielder, but I heard great points from Lou(assuming he’s the best player available):

1 He can play SS this year and pick up the OF glove next offseason, it’s not exactly temporary swapping around
2 What about the pitchers development? They can’t really pitch to their strengths (do your job!) with a butcher at SS
Yeah, that assumption is carrying a lot of weight. If both Romy and Hamilton were sub-standard short-stops, I think moving CR to SS becomes an option. CR clearly has the defensive ability to play SS and experience there. But he's also not hitting right now. I think it's a lot to ask a guy to scrap his season expectations, transition to SS, hold down the MI defense, and learn to hit in a way that's new to him. We've seen that go bad before.

CR is also a long-term asset now. So they have to think about developing him in that context.

If he was already hitting with discipline, AND Romy/Hamilton were no-gos, AND there was a clear 4th OF ready to go (i.e., we have September Abreu and not April Abreu), it's almost reflexive.