SOSH Running Dogs

[rbeaud]

Officially notified by BAA I'm a loser. The qualifying time is nearly 1:30 faster than last year. Hopefully Sunday goes well. It is net downhill by about 300 ft I think. Weather had improved since earlier in the week. Low chance of rain and temps starting in the 40's. Will focus on fuel and water earlier irrespective of how I "feel".

Fingers crossed.

 

[pedro1918]

Good luck rbeaud!

I'm running Philly on 11/22. Looking to break 3:40. It will be my first full in a year and a half. I hurt my calf severely last fall. I was a week out from my first attempt at a 50K when it just popped while playing soccer with my daughter. I was out of commission for about 3 months and it was a long road back. I will go 20 for the first time in a year on Sunday. My physical therapist recommended calf sleeves and I am a believer. Sure, l look a little silly, but who cares? I feel better, especially in the hours after a run.

I have been away from this thread for quite awhile, but it was nice catching up.

 

[Jerrygarciaparra]

1:44:49 at the Leaf Peepers Half Marathon in Waterbury VT
 
74th out of 492 overall but only 14th in my age group.
 
Geez, 50 can't get here fast enough!

 

[Leather]

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[Harry Agganis]

Really impressive training and race times. Good luck with qualifying! Have you run that race before, or are you familiar with the course?

I have run the half before. It's Kansas City and it has three 200 ft gradual ascents 3 10 and 20. I've been training on hilly terrain with one run where I get two shots at a 300 foot ascent over 8 miles. It's not the friendliest course but I am cautiously optimistic. I have a backup attempt in New Orleans in late February. Flat as a Pancake.

 

[BroodsSexton]

Nice work. Just in the interest of completeness, my training got completely screwed up with the rain and wind this weekend. Only got in 8 miles yesterday, and didn't even take a watch or keep track of my time...Going back for my long one this week tomorrow morning (15 mi.)

 

[sass a thon]

..........

Congrats! That's a fantastic time. Hope you are happy with it.

 

[Leather]

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[BroodsSexton]

15.25 this morning, 8:38/mile. A beautiful, cool run, no complaints, no pain. 15 miles was a pretty big psychological barrier for me (which is why I pushed on for the extra quarter mile, just to make sure it was dead and buried, and I took the run to its natural conclusion). I guess this is why people like running. 
 
I now feel like I could go eat an entire diner.

 

[rbeaud]

Far better results this go around, BQ-5:40! That puts me into the first week of registration. I hope this is a safe time as it would require more than doubling the the BQ-2:42 cutoff for 2016. This was a night and day difference from May & January. I was mostly comfortable through the whole race. My fuel strategy made some marked improvements. The UCAN at 1:30 & :30 prior and more water seems to have kept the wall at bay. I was still quite dehydrated. This I discovered at the mile 18 visit to the head...total three for the race. How on earth can I be dehydrated and need three rest stops?!?! That cost me about 80 secs according to the watch. My plan was to take in 2-4 oz every 2 miles or so. Perhaps I need more? If so, I'll may need to consider running in Depends

My splits were pretty even at 1:39:02 vs. 1:40:18. I haven't downloaded my watch though expect there are a couple of quick miles in the (flat) last 10k. There was enough strength in the legs to push harder and even sprint through the finish. It doesn't hurt that Corning is net downhill and the hills are mild. I made a conscious effort to keep even tempo up the hills, targeting 8:00 pace. Same for downhill, no quicker than 7:10 or so. Crowds were enthusiastic in several places. I had to keep all their enthusiasm in check by slowing down so as to keep with the 7:35 target pace (final was 7:36 per official timing). This time, I limited the additional running to 0.09M.

I was really nervous to start the race. Pacers were offered 5 min faster and slower than target. Normally I can pace myself well, except for the only two marathons I've run. More importantly, this weekend was really about supporting my wife on her first marathon as part of journey back to healthier living. I couldn't afford to be a wreck after my race. The 3:15 group started slow, so I more or less stuck with them until 10k (46:56.7) where I hit the head. Sunday felt it could be a day where the legs kept moving. This race makes me feel like I can be the guy who ran a 1:23 half 13 months ago. My stretch goal is to meet the Boston Open Qualifying time and super stretch is sub-3:00.

Guess it's time to find a new marathon...

 

[Leather]

Congrats, rbeaud!
 
 
Hey, I have a gear question.   I run in a tech t-shirt.  Is there any real advantage to running races in a singlet/sleeveless T?   I'm worried I'll feel like a poser if I wear one.

 

[sass a thon]

Congrats rbeaud!
 
drleather - I think it's just a personal preference/comfort thing. I feel like I'm suffocating and overheating in sleeves, so I pretty much only run in tanks. 

 

[rbeaud]

Hey, I have a gear question.   I run in a tech t-shirt.  Is there any real advantage to running races in a singlet/sleeveless T?   I'm worried I'll feel like a poser if I wear one.

Meh, wear what seems right. I'm just not comfortable with a singlet...old childhood issues! It is unlikely to be the reason you are fast unless the sleeves trip your legs I do have a favorite pair of 3" shorts for racing. The weight delta to the long basketball shorts for training is negligible. I just like the feeling of less encumbrance for racing. There a local guy running in pink women's shoes because he has small feet and they were on the discount rack. In summary, wear what you like.

I did tell my son two things require you to bring it to wear 'em: loud shoes and arm warmers.

 

[Leather]

Arm warmers puzzle me.

 

[Marceline]

I like arm warmers. I don't care if they make me look ridiculous. I just recently started wearing them and for me, the combo of arm warmers with a short sleeve tech shirt is perfect when temps are in the 40s. Not cold enough for an actual long sleeve shirt or something warmer, not warm enough for just the short sleeves.

Plus if it warms up while I'm out there I can easily take them off and stuff them in my pockets.

 

[Leather]

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[rbeaud]

I'm in the market for a winter running jacket. Any tips? Live in Minnesota so it can get a little chilly.

Have you run in the cold before? I used to go with the sweatshirts and heavy whatnot. Then I wore shorts/shirt in a 20F race and realized that running keeps me quite warm. Layers work for me these days, with the understanding it takes between 1 and 1.5 miles to get warm.

A tech tee and long sleeve shirt works into the 20's plus running gloves when below freezing. Down to 0F (bulb temp or windchill), I'll add a light half zip or shell of some sort. New England hasn't been much colder than that the last few years. Given MN weather, you may be looking for a shell if only for keeping the snow from soaking your core. Brooks gear has always done right by me.

I think the most useful cold weather gear is a balaclava (Under Armor was cheap that day). You can cover a lot or a little depending on how your body temp changes during the run. A headlamp rocks with the short days of winter. I love the Black Diamond Sprinter. There are several reflective shirts/jackets in my closet, IllumiNITE being a favorite. While I still wear them, nothing can beat a lamp. The Sprinter is rechargeable (one of the few), has front strobe capability, and both front & rear lamps.

I've started to come around on tights, having two pair. Frankly I still like wind pants better. Depending on your winter temps they can come in a extreme cold build (thicker material). My thighs/glutes tend to be chilled after running so I layer the tights under pants.

 

[Leather]

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[pedro1918]

I ran the Army Ten Miler on Sunday morning.  I was hoping to improve  on last year's PR of 1:10:46 and break the 7:00/mile barrier.  Well, I improved, but not by much. 1:10:42.  Four seconds.  It was still a nice run (and a PR!) on a beautiful morning, but I was looking for more.
 
Aren't we all?!?!
 
51/2  weeks to Philadelphia.

 

[BroodsSexton]

So I missed an update--the 15.25 miler last Tuesday really took a lot out of me. Tight calves in particular, and just a lot of leg fatigue. I figured I'd take two days off and then get out Friday.  But I skipped Friday.  And then I skipped Saturday.  I forced myself out on Sunday, and barely got 3.5 miles in (still at 8:31/mi.)  I ran today, and got 7.25 miles in at 8:31/mi.  But it was a difficult run.  Warm weather, afternoon run.  Not ideal in any respect.  And the legs still feel tired.
 
So I'm just under 3 weeks to go.  I'm going to try and get another long run in at the end of this week--hopefully 18 miles on Friday.  I think that's going to be the longest training run I do though.  I'm thinking a couple of short runs (6 miles each) next week (Tuesday/Thursday).  I'm traveling next weekend, but I figure I'll try to get 8-10 miles in either on Sunday the 25th or Monday the 26th.  Then it's a short one the end of that week, leading into the 11/1 marathon?  Does that sound about right?
 
I'm also curious about nutrition leading up to the run.  What can I do to maximize the likelihood that I'll be in a good place marathon morning?  I'm basically vegetarian (I do eat fish), but I'm assuming that nutrition in the week leading up to the run may make a difference?  Or not really?  Any thoughts?  I like to run light, so marathon morning I'm probably not going to eat much more than a bowl of granola with a banana on the way out the door (at whatever god awful hour it needs to be so I can catch the ferry over to Staten Island...)
 
I'm pretty happy with the way the training has gone thus far.  I don't think -- given the time that I've committed to this -- I could be in much better shape (my training history is here...).  But any closing leg advice is welcome.

 

[Leather]

Eat lots of carbs from 5 days out from your race to 36 hours before.  The day before, eat a normal dinner but avoid too much fiber.  On the morning of, eat a bagel or some toast; I would avoid the granola because you really don't want to have to take a shit mid-race.  
 
Don't go for 18 this weekend.  You will get no benefit.   The maximum benefit from long runs comes 3 weeks later, typically, so you're under the gun.  Do 10-12 this weekend, then 8 next weekend.   Run a couple of shorter runs (5-6 miles) each week in between.  The week of your race, after you run 8, run 4 and then 3, both slow.   
 
You are probably aiming to run too fast, if you are this tired at this point.  Long runs should not exhaust you.  The only way you will finish a whole marathon is if you slow down.   And your body won't be comfortable running at a realistic, consistent, speed (say, 10:00/mile) unless you get used to it now.
 
At this point, your goals are:
 
1) rest; 
2) get used to running at a realistic race speed;

 

[BroodsSexton]

Eat lots of carbs from 5 days out from your race to 36 hours before.  The day before, eat a normal dinner but avoid too much fiber.  On the morning of, eat a bagel or some toast; I would avoid the granola because you really don't want to have to take a shit mid-race.  
 
If you are really tired from training, don't go for 18 this weekend.  You will get no benefit.   The maximum benefit from long runs comes 3 weeks later, typically, so you're under the gun.  Do 10-12 this weekend, then 8 next weekend.   Run a couple of shorter runs (5-6 miles) each week in between.  The week of your race, after you run 8, run 4 and then 3, both slow.   
 
You are probably aiming to run too fast, if you are this tired at this point.  Long runs should not exhaust you.  The only way you will finish a whole marathon is if you slow down.   And your body won't be comfortable running at a realistic, consistent, speed (say, 10:00/mile) unless you get used to it now.
 
At this point, your goals are:
 
1) rest; 
2) get used to running at a realistic race speed;

 
 
OK.  The truth is, the 15-mile run was fine.  I could have gone longer, and didn't feel wiped out at the time.  I mean, I certainly wasn't at my freshest when I was done, but really what got me was muscle soreness and fatigue for the few days after, which kept me off the road (I figured better to just listen to my body than push it).  But you're probably right, I should slow down in any event.  It's hard to explain, but I actually feel like I get more tired if I am consciously slowing my pace. When I don't think about it, I tend to settle in between 8:30 and 8:45/mi.
 
I remember having to use the port-a-potty during the only other marathon I ran.  Good advice to lay off that morning.
 
I like your fatalistic approach--rest, stay loose, and hope you've done enough to get through.  Sounds about right.  A few sh'mas and Hail Marys the night before, and commend my spirit into the heavenly father or something like that, to get me through the 26.2.

 

[Marceline]

Yeah, I would echo the advice above. You need to either run slower (10:00/mile max) or take frequent walk breaks to make it through 26 at this point.

One question for you - I didn't really see this mentioned - did you practice fueling during your longer runs? And what do you plan to do for the race?

 

[BroodsSexton]

Yeah, I would echo the advice above. You need to either run slower (10:00/mile max) or take frequent walk breaks to make it through 26 at this point.

One question for you - I didn't really see this mentioned - did you practice fueling during your longer runs? And what do you plan to do for the race?

 
I've been fueling with a single GU pack after the first 3 miles, with water, and then every 45 minutes thereafter.  I'll carry gel with me on a belt, and would plan to follow a similar strategy. 

 

[rbeaud]

So I missed an update--the 15.25 miler last Tuesday really took a lot out of me. Tight calves in particular, and just a lot of leg fatigue. I figured I'd take two days off and then get out Friday.  But I skipped Friday.  And then I skipped Saturday.  I forced myself out on Sunday, and barely got 3.5 miles in (still at 8:31/mi.)  I ran today, and got 7.25 miles in at 8:31/mi.  But it was a difficult run.  Warm weather, afternoon run.  Not ideal in any respect.  And the legs still feel tired.
 
So I'm just under 3 weeks to go.  I'm going to try and get another long run in at the end of this week--hopefully 18 miles on Friday.  I think that's going to be the longest training run I do though.  I'm thinking a couple of short runs (6 miles each) next week (Tuesday/Thursday).  I'm traveling next weekend, but I figure I'll try to get 8-10 miles in either on Sunday the 25th or Monday the 26th.  Then it's a short one the end of that week, leading into the 11/1 marathon?  Does that sound about right?
quote]

Broods, I'll be the opposite voice here and suggest you keep that 18M. That's about two weeks out for you right? I've run long 12-14 days before each of my marathons this year. The advice to run slow is solid, aim for 60-90 secs slower than target marathon pace. This would be a great opportunity to practice race day prep and fueling. I think the mental aspect of getting in a long run is beneficial. And you will get some benefit even though the majority of improvements should be gained in the many weeks of running prior.

As to fuel, you can read my recent Corning summary...I'm really liking UCAN and enthusiastically recommend it (it's vegan if you avoid choc/vanilla protein version). I don't subscribe to packing on carbs the week of the race. Taper mileage sort of works against you here. You can only store so much glycogen and it's not being used as much. Race day, about three hours out, I'll have a banana plus 1/2 bagel w/ PB & 8 oz water. During the race, using Stingers (60 carbs/hr via 39 carbs/pack) worked much better last week than previous races w/ GU (45 carbs/hr via 29 carbs/pack). Supposedly you should have a target of 12-24 oz of water per hour.

Good luck!

 

[BroodsSexton]

Not sure how I feel about the gummies--I haven't tried them, but the consistency of the GU is good for me.  The thinner gels tend to give me indigestion.  I'll pick a few up, and see how I feel about it.  I'll pick up the UCAN, too, which sounds like a good idea.
 
Thanks for the contrary view.  Weather and legs permitting, I think I will try to get the miles Thursday or Friday.  The mental aspect is important for me, and I should have adequate time to recover.  It will give me a chance to practice pacing and fuel, if nothing else.  You all seem to be telling me to slow down, and as much as it drives me nuts, I recognize it's probably good advice.
 
For those in the know, I'm planning on running the Rockaways.  Park at Fort Tilden, run back and forth to Breezy Point, and then I can adjust mileage, going in the other direction, on the fly.  It will be cool and flat, and I'll take it easy.

 

[Marceline]

My advice is to slow down for the marathon itself, not necessarily for the training. I agree with keeping the 18 Miler also. The longer taper period is more beneficial for people on a longer, more intense training schedule.

 

[SydneySox]

In summer, for various understandable reasons, they don't hold any long running festivals in Sydney or its surrounds so I've been looking for something to do. I train a lot on a trail run for my long runs, usually doing the 9km run twice or sometimes two and a little more.
 
Anyway so I saw the Blue Mountains ultra-trail opened today for rego in May and just immediately signed up for the 22km (not up for my first real trail race being 50 or 100) and I'll be ok to do that and train for it. http://www.ultratrailaustralia.com.au/races/pace-22/the-course
 
However, then, after signing up, I check out the site. Not only do you have to, because it's a trail run in the middle of the bush where people routinely do get lost and die, have to carry a fuckload of mandatory gear, I then looked at the map of the course. Interestingly, the map isn't top-down like most, it's actually a topography map.
 

 
It ends with a kilometre of stairs.
 
This is going to be awesome.

 

[Marceline]

That does look awesome. Especially the sewage treatment works. Good luck!

Those stairs at the end will be absolutely brutal.

 

[SydneySox]

Yeah, it's an amazing area.
 
I don't think we'll (a mate and I) treat this like a race. I can forsee stopping at the bottom of those stairs, having a drink and collecting our thoughts.
 
Then again, you did the Great Wall Marathon right? I understand that was 42km of steps.

 

[SydneySox]

 
These are the stairs. Far out.

 

[Leather]

That 5k with 1,800 of elevation loss is going to kill some quads. Holy shit.

 

[BroodsSexton]

Can you get a couple ropes and sling a bridge?

 

[BroodsSexton]

I just mixed up some of that UCAN for my run this afternoon. I don't know if this stuff will give me energy, but it sure looks like it might get me pregnant.

 

[Marceline]

Yeah, it's an amazing area.
 
I don't think we'll (a mate and I) treat this like a race. I can forsee stopping at the bottom of those stairs, having a drink and collecting our thoughts.
 
Then again, you did the Great Wall Marathon right? I understand that was 42km of steps.

 
I did, and looking at that course elevation map, and the stairs, definitely reminded me of the Great Wall. It's not 42km of steps, it's about 8km of steps (around 5000 stairs total), while you're on the wall, and the rest is running through villages and country roads in the surrounding area (and is very hilly).
 
Agreed that not treating it like a race is the best approach. Just try to get to the finish. I would think a course like this for 22km would be, in terms of time to complete, closer to a full marathon and I would recommend training as if it were. Not sure if you have access to stairs, maybe a nearby stadium or track that has stands that you can run up and down - try running 15-20km and then running up and down some stairs for 20 minutes would be a good training exercise.
 
When I got to the end of the Great Wall Marathon, and those final sets of stairs, around 35-40km, I was actually crawling up and down on all fours since my legs were pretty much toast by that point.

 

[BroodsSexton]

Oh, hell yeah. 18 miles strong. I took y'all's advice and started slow. I ran 6 miles at 9:55. Upped the pace for 6 miles to sub-9:00. And then ran five miles right around 9:30. I legged the last mile at 8:15. Flat, cool, and sunny. It felt awesome.

I fueled with a packet of UCAN about 30 mins before. Drank 20 oz. water along the way. Fueled with Gu at miles 3, 8, 12 and 16, and sucked on a few of the Stinger gummies on the off miles (5, 10, 14). Avg. overall pace was 9:22/mi.
 
18.0 mi.  9:22/mi.  5 difficulty

 

[SydneySox]

 
I did, and looking at that course elevation map, and the stairs, definitely reminded me of the Great Wall. It's not 42km of steps, it's about 8km of steps (around 5000 stairs total), while you're on the wall, and the rest is running through villages and country roads in the surrounding area (and is very hilly).
 
Agreed that not treating it like a race is the best approach. Just try to get to the finish. I would think a course like this for 22km would be, in terms of time to complete, closer to a full marathon and I would recommend training as if it were. Not sure if you have access to stairs, maybe a nearby stadium or track that has stands that you can run up and down - try running 15-20km and then running up and down some stairs for 20 minutes would be a good training exercise.
 
When I got to the end of the Great Wall Marathon, and those final sets of stairs, around 35-40km, I was actually crawling up and down on all fours since my legs were pretty much toast by that point.

 
I do, I do. I live in the city and we have some great steps that I run most runs.
 
Also have some great steep hills that everyone runs.
 
I hadn't thuoght of it like a marathon, only as a more challenging half. Now I'm kind of concerned. Better start taking training serious.

 

[Harry Agganis]

Been a while but I am about to start my taper for the Kansas City Marathon. This is a Boston Qualifying attempt for me. I will be 55 in 2017 so my qualifying time time is 3:40.
 
I've been training with Pfitzinger and Douglas Advanced Marathon with up to 55 miles a week with a goal of 3:30. The plan features Long Runs on Sundays and a mid mileage long run during the week with emphasis on Lactate threshold runs rather than speed training.
 
Recently I've done some Test Racing to see where I am up with the McMillan Race Pace Calculator.
 
Aug 22  5K at 21:54 First in Age Group
Sept 6 5K at 21:24 Fourth in Age Group PR
Sept 22 Half in 1:39:49 First in Age Group PR
 
All indications are good for a 3:30. Race is on Oct 17

 
I came in at 3:32:54.  A 7:06 cushion. I am thinking 2017 is looking pretty good

 

[pedro1918]

 
I came in at 3:32:54.  A 7:06 cushion. I am thinking 2017 is looking pretty good

 
 
That is awesome, Harry.  Nice work and congratulations!

 

[fiskful of dollars]

 
I came in at 3:32:54.  A 7:06 cushion. I am thinking 2017 is looking pretty good

 
Great race…congrats!

 

[Leather]

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[24JoshuaPoint]

I just mixed up some of that UCAN for my run this afternoon. I don't know if this stuff will give me energy, but it sure looks like it might get me pregnant.
 

 
No upset stomach or anything crazy from that stuff? It frightens me but i on paper it looks good.

 

[Harry Agganis]

Yay! Congrats.
 
 
Do you guys think the Boston qualification modifier will keep going up?  Or do you think it's gone up temporarily for a few years in large part due to increased interest in Boston after the 2013 bombing?
 
Anecdotally, Twin Cities Marathon finisher total was the lowest since 2011, and Chicago had 3,000 fewer finishers than last year.

I think we will be seeing the modifier normalizing again in a few years. My observations have been that Marathons are almost all adding a half marathon distance and it is by far the most popular distance. Also it is the race component that generates the most income. From a quick check of the KC Marathon and The Garmin ( Kansas ) It also appears the women running halfs far out number the men. In the Marathon the numbers are more equal but there are more men.

Kansas City went from 1800 in 2013 to 1298 in 2015, Garmin from 687 in 2013 to 564 in 2015.  At the same time the number of Halfers and Relayers stayed stable or went up.
 
The Boston Bulge may be receding. It will be interesting to see if the marathon ratio starts to shift more towards women.

 

[Marceline]

I think we will be seeing the modifier normalizing again in a few years. My observations have been that Marathons are almost all adding a half marathon distance and it is by far the most popular distance. Also it is the race component that generates the most income. From a quick check of the KC Marathon and The Garmin ( Kansas ) It also appears the women running halfs far out number the men. In the Marathon the numbers are more equal but there are more men.

Kansas City went from 1800 in 2013 to 1298 in 2015, Garmin from 687 in 2013 to 564 in 2015.  At the same time the number of Halfers and Relayers stayed stable or went up.
 
The Boston Bulge may be receding. It will be interesting to see if the marathon ratio starts to shift more towards women.

 

The half is just a better distance. It's still an accomplishment, but you can run it and train for it without feeling like you're killing yourself. At least that's how I feel about marathons.
 
I still want to qualify for Boston eventually, but I'm using half marathons to train for it. I won't run another full marathon until I've gotten below 1:30 in a half - at that point, I'll feel like I am close enough to give the full marathon another shot.

 

[Leather]

What's the best off-season way to get ready for next running season?   I really would like to give BQ'ing a shot next fall, so I know I need to maintain at least 20 miles/week in actual running through February, but should I just worry about long slow runs, or do middle distances, or speed work?  Weight training?  Diet?
 
Should the off season include downtime to avoid burnout?

 

[BroodsSexton]

 
No upset stomach or anything crazy from that stuff? It frightens me but i on paper it looks good.

No problems at all, other than choking it down. But of course if you really love running you'll do it.

 

[Jerrygarciaparra]

PR at the Newburyport Half Marathon : 1:41:04

 

[fiskful of dollars]

PRs are awesome. Great time!

 

[SydneySox]

What's the best off-season way to get ready for next running season?   I really would like to give BQ'ing a shot next fall, so I know I need to maintain at least 20 miles/week in actual running through February, but should I just worry about long slow runs, or do middle distances, or speed work?  Weight training?  Diet?
 
Should the off season include downtime to avoid burnout?

 
Move to Australia where there is no offseason.

 

[Spelunker]

And there's a lot of systemic built in training just running away from the local fauna.