Sons, Sam, and Horn, L.L.P.: Brady Case LEGAL ISSUES Only

edmunddantes

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There will probably be a couple form arbitration interested parties too. Maybe them arguing to have this be a non-precedence case, no matter how it is decided. 
 
NFL arbitration process is a shitty one to base true neutral arbitration rules on. NFL is basically arguing for the right to do whatever they want so long as it somewhat plausibly looks like arbitration.
 

dcmissle

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You do respond if an amicus scores.

But it's becoming academic. Amicus would have to be filed when Union brief due. That is not far away.
 

djbayko

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WayBackVazquez said:
 
One doesn't really respond to an amicus brief. Sometimes an appellant might address an argument made in an amicus on reply, especially if the amicus was filed by the government, but in general, no responses. But to your question, a brief in support of the NFLPA would not be due until 7 days after the union files its brief. After that, an amicus would need leave to file a late brief, which the court would be very unlikely to grant, especially a brief in response to another amicus. So it's not really an issue.
 
I suspect there will be amicus briefs in support of each side here. Probably from the MLBPA on the union's side, and potentially the other leagues in favor of Goodell. And there probably will be a couple of crackpotish briefs filed.
I didn't mean a literal response to the points in the brief, I meant a "dem Pats fans aren't going to get away with this: let's write our own!" kind of response.

It sounds like the timeline isn't really allowing it, unless they're planning to file already.
 

dcmissle

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Yeah. Scalia's clerks will be deeply moved by how our feelings are hurt, rooting interest tarnished.

I don't believe SCOTUS would touch this, and good thing. Cause If they do, be very afraid -- they loves them arbitration and have issued decisions in that space that my clients love but would appall people here were they aware of them -- fairness my ass.
 

BroodsSexton

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dcmissle said:
Yeah. Scalia's clerks will be deeply moved by how our feelings are hurt, rooting interest tarnished.

I don't believe SCOTUS would touch this, and good thing. Cause If they do, be very afraid -- they loves them arbitration and have issued decisions in that space that my clients love but would appall people here were they aware of them -- fairness my ass.
I'm assuming we'd be opposing cert.
 

dcmissle

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BroodsSexton said:
I'm assuming we'd be opposing cert.
You never file to oppose cert. All that does is raise the case's profile. Indeed, most parties don't file cert opps these days unless the case raises troubling apparent Circuit conflicts. If the Court is inclined to grant cert or is not sure, it will ask you to respond. Almost nothing to loose by remaining silent.
 

WayBackVazquez

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dcmissle said:
You never file to oppose cert. All that does is raise the case's profile. Indeed, most parties don't file cert opps these days unless the case raises troubling apparent Circuit conflicts. If the Court is inclined to grant cert or is not sure, it will ask you to respond. Almost nothing to loose by remaining silent.
This is mostly wrong. First off, an opposition is still filed in the majority of paid cases. As to what there is to lose, you needn't look any farther than what you discussed earlier about how an appellate court or clerk usually reads briefs to see one potential issue. Instead of reaching the pool clerk with the benefit of both sides of a claimed split (for example) being examined and briefed, the justices receive a recommendation based on only the petitioner's arguments. Yes, respondent will get a chance to file a BIO before the cert decision is made, but by that time there is a leaning toward a grant that may be difficult to overcome. The statistics certainly don't contradict this, in that cases where a response is requested are granted at many times the typical rate.

Our group has had discussions about this at meetings, so I can tell you that the definitive statements you're making are far from universally agreed upon among Supreme Court practices.
 

dcmissle

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WayBackVazquez said:
This is mostly wrong. First off, an opposition is still filed in the majority of paid cases. As to what there is to lose, you needn't look any farther than what you discussed earlier about how an appellate court or clerk usually reads briefs to see one potential issue. Instead of reaching the pool clerk with the benefit of both sides of a claimed split (for example) being examined and briefed, the justices receive a recommendation based on only the petitioner's arguments. Yes, respondent will get a chance to file a BIO before the cert decision is made, but by that time there is a leaning toward a grant that may be difficult to overcome. The statistics certainly don't contradict this, in that cases where a response is requested are granted at many times the typical rate.

Our group has had discussions about this at meetings, so I can tell you that the definitive statements you're making are far from universally agreed upon among Supreme Court practices.
Of course firms file them -- they are paid for them. Clients follow like sheep.

The last 5 cases up there I have filed no opposition. Cert denied in all 5 cases. They never asked for a response.

Here is the point -- the rate of grants is so low that the odds are monumentally against the Court taking the case. And, if the Court is on the edge, it will ask for a response. And in those cases in which a response is requested, the matter is probably cert worthy and you should have anticipated that and filed.

This case is not in that category. As much as the Court likes arbitration cases, taking 1 to 3 per year in recent years, it just isn't.

I have not heard of a single case -- not one -- where a petition is filed, no opposition is filed, and cert is granted. If you are aware of such an instance, please let me know. I need to know about it

if you are an AMICUS that doesn't want cert to be granted and you file, you are out of your mind and wasting your money.
 

WayBackVazquez

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Firms file them because when it's a non-frivolous petition, it's bad lawyering not to. It's pretty great to tell a client that cert "probably would have been granted anyway" after you initially waived a response. The risk/reward is off the charts in favor of ending a case before getting to the merits as compared with the cost of briefing and printing an opposition.

I never said the Court would grant cert without asking for an opposition. I recall it may even be in the procedures that it won't.

As to whether this case is a likely grant, neither you nor I have any idea at this point. The Eighth Circuit could issue a ruling with a holding directly in conflict with whatever the Second Circuit does here. In which case you'll have the exact case where whether a court confirms or vacates an award between even the very same parties on the very same issue will be solely dependent on the court where the case is filed. And especially in light of the race to the courtroom in this very case, that presents a problem of the kind that SCOTUS is made for.

And I wasn't talking about amicus. Neither were you.
 

crystalline

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WayBackVazquez said:
  
The opening of an amicus brief must contain a (FRAP 29) statement of the party's interest in the matter. IMO, "Amicus is a mostly non-practicing attorney and blogger who has an interest in requiring the the NFL to act fairly," is less persuasive than "Amici are New England Patriots season ticket holders who have an interest in ensuring the fair value of their property and maintaining a level playing field for their favored team."
What about DOTB? Longtime season ticket holder and Patriots bettor, if I remember correctly, and has a New England local real estate practice so it might get his name out there in a useful way.
You guys should draft and file this.
 

dcmissle

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Fair enough. I file opps in two circumstances. I'm here referring to civil cases based on a claimed Circuit conflict, not cases of great public importance -- e.g., Obamacare.

1. Where there is a decent argument for a genuine Circuit split. These are dangerous because despite the Court's shrinking docket ( after Roberts testified at confirmation he wanted 100 cases a Term), the Justices take seriously their responsibility to resolve conflicts.

2. Where a petitioner weaves a smokescreen that a case belongs in category 1, and the Court needs my help putting the lie to that. These are typically procedurally messy cases, and the opps tend to be very short.

Otherwise, I remain silent, the case goes away, and the client is happy. Maybe I am too adventurous, maybe not.

As for this case, I suppose it is possible that the Eighth and Second could conflict. Even then, we're facing a very quirky arbitration regime that isn't very prevalent. And there is a good argument that this situation represents a one off unworthy of the Court's attention.

They are not going to grant because they want to see Clement. They usually see him 3 or 4 times a Term. And they are unfazed by the NFL's inflated sense of self importance.
 

dcmissle

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Bleedred said:
When is the NFLPA reply brief due?
"Reply" is term of art in this context, and refers to the NFL's response to what the Union will submit, which typically is referred to as brief in opposition.

Not being a nerd, just trying to head off some potential confusion as the briefs come in.
 

GeorgeCostanza

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I prefer remembering it as Larry Legends birthday.

As an aside, I think it's honestly pretty cool to see how some of you legal eagles fawn over some of the attorneys involved. It's normally something we only see with entertainers (athletes, musicians, actors, etc).

At this point, who has the advantage talent wise representing them? Or is it a toss up? I'm a bit of an amateur Supreme Court buff, and Clements most recent results with cases in front of SCOTUS were not wins if I'm recalling correctly.
 

dcmissle

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Don't judge by won-loss records. These people take long shots. And Clement -- and others -- take cases reflecting personal beliefs that are even bigger long shots.

I don't think either side will have much of an advantage in the briefing. The arguments are what they are; these people will frame them them well; and each side will have really good people reviewing them and offering comment.

As for oral argument, it depends who the Union sends in there. We won't know for sure until brief is filed. If they send in Kessler and he does the trial lawyer thing, he may get his ass kicked. That's my concern. They send in a very good experienced appellate advocate, oral argument is probably a stand off, which I would take in a nanosecond.

And don't judge the argument by how the panel reacts. Either side could do a terrific job but get kicked around because of a really bad draw with the panel.
 

edmunddantes

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The worst part is knowing that none of this really matters till we know who is on the panel, and even then there are surprises.
 
Unless people with knowledge of the current slate of judges in that group are willing to start breaking down "Judges X, Y, Z are the ones you want, while if you see any of these names it's probably going the other way" as much as can be done. Probably too big of a pull though considering the need to go through recent cases, etc to get a feel for how the judges are tracking beyond any real ideologues that you can pinpoint a mile away  like "he's a union guy 99 time out of hundred" or "he has never met an arbitrator case that he didn't feel was judged correctly" 
 

dcmissle

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edmunddantes said:
The worst part is knowing that none of this really matters till we know who is on the panel, and even then there are surprises.
 
Unless people with knowledge of the current slate of judges in that group are willing to start breaking down "Judges X, Y, Z are the ones you want, while if you see any of these names it's probably going the other way" as much as can be done. Probably too big of a pull though considering the need to go through recent cases, etc to get a feel for how the judges are tracking beyond any real ideologues that you can pinpoint a mile away  like "he's a union guy 99 time out of hundred" or "he has never met an arbitrator case that he didn't feel was judged correctly" 
Court is just too big to start that now, at least for me.

I count 22 judges, 13 active and 9 senior. And that does not exhaust it because the panel could have some judge not on the court sitting by designation.
 

TheoShmeo

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dcmissle said:
Don't judge by won-loss records. These people take long shots. And Clement -- and others -- take cases reflecting personal beliefs that are even bigger long shots.

I don't think either side will have much of an advantage in the briefing. The arguments are what they are; these people will frame them them well; and each side will have really good people reviewing them and offering comment.

As for oral argument, it depends who the Union sends in there. We won't know for sure until brief is filed. If they send in Kessler and he does the trial lawyer thing, he may get his ass kicked. That's my concern. They send in a very good experienced appellate advocate, oral argument is probably a stand off, which I would take in a nanosecond.

And don't judge the argument by how the panel reacts. Either side could do a terrific job but get kicked around because of a really bad draw with the panel.
Honest question:  Do you know that Kessler has very limited appellate experience?
 
To your point, it does look from his on line CV that that is the case.    
 
http://www.winston.com/en/who-we-are/attorneys/kessler-jeffrey-l.html
 

dcmissle

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Thanks for posting that.

I see that he represented BB when he "hereby resign[ed] as HC of the NYJs" -- on a cocktail napkin.

Lol
 

Was (Not Wasdin)

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scotian1 said:
With the firm of Gibson, Dunn and Crutcher being part of the Brady team. I would hope that one of their experienced lawyers in appellate court would take a leading role. In fact if it was me this is the one that I would want.
http://www.gibsondunn.com/lawyers/mestrada
 
 
I think that if Gibson is significantly involved, Ted Olson would play a major role
 
http://www.gibsondunn.com/lawyers/tolson
 
He is an appellate giant.  Despite his conservative tendencies, he teamed with David Boies to argue the case at the Supreme Court overturning California's Proposition 8, the ban on same sex marriages.  
 

DJnVa

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I have a good friend that works there. I'm going to reach out and see if he is doing anything on this.
 

bankshot1

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Was (Not Wasdin) said:
 
 
I think that if Gibson is significantly involved, Ted Olson would play a major role
 
http://www.gibsondunn.com/lawyers/tolson
 
He is an appellate giant.  Despite his conservative tendencies, he teamed with David Boies to argue the case at the Supreme Court overturning California's Proposition 8, the ban on same sex marriages.  
About a week ago dcm provided a link to Clement's recent arguments to (IIRC) this appellate court. One of the cases, Brady v NFL (about NFLPA decertification) Olson argued for the NFLPA and against Clement and the NFL.  
 

troparra

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The NFL injury report policy is stated to be "paramount to maintaining the integrity of the game".  
The IndyStar reported the following:
 
The NFL has punished teams in the past for failing to comply with injury reporting guidelines. In 2009, the New York Jets were docked $75,000 and former coach Eric Mangini and general manager Mike Tannenbaum $25,000 each for not listing quarterback Brett Favre on the injury report for part of the previous season even though he had a torn biceps tendon.
The Washington Redskins, Buffalo Bills and Baltimore Ravens were fined $20,000 each in October 2012 for various injury reporting violations.
http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nfl/colts/2015/11/01/report-indianapolis-colts-qb-andrew-luck-dealing-broken-ribs/75001308/
 
 
 
Can this be used as precedent in the NFLPA's case?   It clearly shows that a violation of a rule that is incredibly important to the "integrity of the game" was met with a token fine.  I'm guessing the Colts will get a similar fine for the Luck rib injury situation.  So, clearly, Brady's punishment was way out of line with other "integrity of the game" violations.  
 
The NFL can argue that the injury report and deflating footballs are different, but aren't they essentially handcuffed by their own policy which literally says that there is no greater threat to the integrity of the game than violating the injury report policy?  
 

dcmissle

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Technically no, you are pretty much confined to the record below, and this isn't in it.

That said, I have seen things like this show up in a sentence or footnote. It is a drive-by. You are putting your opponent to the tough choice of complaining about it, maybe moving to strike references to it, which only draws attention to it, or gritting his or her teeth in silence and frustration.

But unless this tactic really hits a telling point, you are best avoiding it. It can make you look desperate.

I would be greatly surprised if this popped up in the brief. The Union has a bunch of other stuff to work with in this vein.
 

mwonow

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dcmissle said:
Technically no, you are pretty much confined to the record below, and this isn't in it.

That said, I have seen things like this show up in a sentence or footnote. It is a drive-by. You are putting your opponent to the tough choice of complaining about it, maybe moving to strike references to it, which only draws attention to it, or gritting his or her teeth in silence and frustration.

But unless this tactic really hits a telling point, you are best avoiding it. It can make you look desperate.

I would be greatly surprised if this popped up in the brief. The Union has a bunch of other stuff to work with in this vein.
 
I'm sure you're right, but still - this has to be at least as relevant as the 1918 White Sox, right?
 

BroodsSexton

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I'll disagree with dcmissile. I'd be happy to include this point if I could find a way to work it in, and be happy to bait a response from the NFL. If NFLPA can drag the appellate court into engaging with reality (sometimes difficult with an appellate body, but not impossible), it is all to the good. Let the NFL be the one to constantly say that facts are irrelevant. Be strong on the law (or at least a 50/50) and hammer the sheer idiocy of what you're dealing with in reality.

But you know the saying, 2 lawyers in a five minute conversation, five opinions voiced and half an hour billed. Or something like that.
 

Myt1

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mwonow said:
I'm sure you're right, but still - this has to be at least as relevant as the 1918 White Sox, right?
Right now the union has an appealing no bullshit purity of not trying to make bad reaches for analogies (PEDs and Black Sox). My inclination would be not to wrestle with the pig at this point (because you both get dirty but the pig likes it) in the absence of some 99% effective pig-killing jujitsu move that you can pull.

And I just think that this ain't it.

In other words, I'm loathe to trade potentially a lot of credibility/narrative synergy for a little potential benefit in the argument that would require a panel to read it just right for it to land.
 

Quintanariffic

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Just read that the NFLPA has retained Gibson Dunn for the appeal from reliable media source on Twitter. I think I recall the consensus being that this is potentially a good thing given Kessler's strengths/weaknesses?
 

dcmissle

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I think very highly of the firm, have worked with it on a number of matters. I think it's good news. Sis the Twitter report name an individual lawyer? We'll know by early Dec when the brief is filed.
 

TheoShmeo

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My guess is that Kessler/Winston will stay on the brief and remain part of the team along with Gibson Dunn.
 

mauf

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Doesn't make much sense to hire Gibson Dunn and not use Ted Olson.

There had been some questions about the quality of representation that TB12/NFLPA received earlier in this case, so I agree with dcmissle that this is good news.
 

Otis Foster

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Doesn't make much sense to hire Gibson Dunn and not use Ted Olson.

There had been some questions about the quality of representation that TB12/NFLPA received earlier in this case, so I agree with dcmissle that this is good news.

Didn't that relate to the handling of emails, etc. during the investigative phase? Kessler wasn't involved in that.

But I do agree, retain Olsen if at all possible, esp. with Clement on the other side. They've tangled before.
 

Shelterdog

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Doesn't make much sense to hire Gibson Dunn and not use Ted Olson.

There had been some questions about the quality of representation that TB12/NFLPA received earlier in this case, so I agree with dcmissle that this is good news.
Olson is obviously out of this world but Gibson Dunn has a ton of other great lawyers who are in the upper stratosphere of appellate practice.
 

dcmissle

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Agreed. Just to take one, for example, Mark Perry. It's not at all clear to me that the NFLPA should want to create a battle of the Titans, a rematch of that CBA case. Atmospherically, that's not where I'd want to bring this. I'd be delighted with a summary affirmance. You want a first rate appellate lawyer who can go toe to toe with the opposition. Several there fit that description.
 

joe dokes

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Olson is obviously out of this world but Gibson Dunn has a ton of other great lawyers who are in the upper stratosphere of appellate practice.
I think that both sides have lawyers of such quality that neither can be said to have some sort of advantage. It's also likely that this appeal, like most appeals, will be won on the briefs. Oral argument is fun, exciting and public, but if you haven't convinced 2 of the judges of your case in the 6 weeks before argument that they have your briefs, it's unlikely to change in the 15 or 20 minutes you get to argue. Not unheard of, just not likely.
 

TheoShmeo

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I agree, Joe. Most times when there has been pre-hearing briefing, the Judge knows where he plans to go before oral arguments begin. Often, the opinion is more than half written by that time.

Where oral argument matters most is when it's a close case in the Judge's mind. I think most litigators have seen Judges ask really tough questions partially because they need help in getting to a decision.

So yeah, I agree, the oral advocacy is going to be great on both sides, they will probably cancel each other out and it will probably not matter because the Judges will have reached their conclusions in advance. But if one or more of them are on the fence....
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Oral argument doesn't often matter, but when it does, it really does matter a lot. Some judges really do go into argument at or close to equipoise. Some go in unprepared. In some of the busier circuits (though I don't believe in the 2d), a bench memo is prepared by only one of the clerks for for the entire panel. So, Judge A's clerk will write a bench memo that distributed not just to Judge A, but also Judges B and C. (This is the practice at the 9th Circuit, where it's too busy for every chambers to write a memo for every case, although some of the judges make their clerks write supplements to the bench memo.) If a judge does you the favor of telling you in his questions why he's not buying your argument, which they don't always do, this is where you're most likely to have an impact -- if you can shake what he thinks he knows to the point where he's willing to go back and take another look, then you have a chance to turn the thing around. It's much less common that this happens with respect to the law, because once a judge (or his clerk) has an opinion about what a case means or whether it applies, it's hard to shake. The only way you can really get a judge off something like that is to maybe make a point about the case that matters and is sort of hidden. If you can get a judge to go back and re-read a case, you've accomplished something. It may not mean that oral argument will necessarily turn a loss into a win, but it would be wrong to say it doesn't matter. It does happen most with the record -- if the judge has an incorrect understanding of the record, or thinks something is in there that isn't (or vice versa), this is where you can make some headway.

The other thing that seems to happen a lot at oral argument is that a particular judge might go in predisposed to rule for one side, but with a few things that she needs to have shored up in order to be comfortable. If you're on the side where this judge is leaning, oral argument really does matter -- you need to try to recognize what those points are and give the assurance the judge is looking for (again often about the record) while playing some defense by trying to rebut what your opponent has said (or, harder, what you expect your opponent is likely to say) about why the judge has it wrong. If you mis-perceive what the judge is doing -- if she's trying to help you but needs you to meet her halfway and you treat her as hostile, you could fuck up your whole case. If you're on the losing side, you have an uphill battle, but you have to hope that the judge gives you a fighting chance by accurately explaining her concerns so that you at least can try to take them on.

This is one of the reasons that, while the prospect of gathering judge intelligence is often bullshit, it does help to know your judge sometimes. It's a very small sample size, but if I were ever to appear before Berman, based on this case, I would be inclined to conclude that he asks honest questions and tells me exactly what my problems are. If I'm on the side that is losing, this is my very favorite kind of judge, because he gives me a puncher's chance. Because he was so adamant about trying to get a settlement in this case, when the reports came in about oral argument, there were a lot of attempts to figure out what it meant -- was he asking hard questions of the NFL because they were dragging their heels in settlement and he wanted to try to convince them to play? As it turns out, no. When you read his opinion, and look back on oral argument, it's very clear that the questions he was asking were a straightforward and honest attempt to get the NFL to try to convince him he was wrong. They didn't even try. But, very long winded way of saying that when you have a judge like that, oral argument really can matter.
 

WayBackVazquez

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Clement has requested March 3 or March 4 for oral argument.

We should know by Christmas who (tentatively, at least) intends to argue for the union, since the argument statement is due within 14 days of the opposition brief.
 

Shelterdog

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Agreed. Just to take one, for example, Mark Perry. It's not at all clear to me that the NFLPA should want to create a battle of the Titans, a rematch of that CBA case. Atmospherically, that's not where I'd want to bring this. I'd be delighted with a summary affirmance. You want a first rate appellate lawyer who can go toe to toe with the opposition. Several there fit that description.
Exactly. It's not like you're fucking up an appellate case if you have Miguel Estrada handles it rather than Olson.
 

soxfan121

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Whoever gets Reverend in Secret Santa should get him a Kessler fathead for his wall.