Sons, Sam, and Horn, L.L.P.: Brady Case LEGAL ISSUES Only

edmunddantes

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So they've upgraded some of the things already...

Brady destroying his cellphone went from happening on or around the time he interviewed with Wells... to that very day

At the hearing, Brady confirmed that, on March 6, 2015, “the very day that he was
interviewed by Mr. Wells and his investigative team,” he “instructed his assistant to
destroy the cellphone that he had been using since early November 2014, a period
that included the AFC Championship Game and the initial weeks of the subsequent
investigation.”
Lots of twisting like that throughout so if you didn't know the material inside and out, you could easily get lost in the slight alterations.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Do statements like this one make any difference or are they just there as window dressing?
 
https://twitter.com/WALLACHLEGAL/status/658772721422069764
 
And could Kessler respond with the OTL stuff pointing out NFL bias?
 

dcmissle

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This has game thread potential, not from a content point of view (the posters here are generally very solid) but from a psychological standpoint.

Recommendations for those who want to remain relatively content at 38,000 feet and avoid the yo-yo effect, particularly non-lawyers.

1. Assume that each side will put forward their very best arguments in the most attractive packaging possible. That almost certainly is the case, on both sides.

2. Don't get too up or too down.

3. Read the briefs sequentially -- opening, opposition, reply. That's the way they will be presented to the judges, and that's the way they will read them.

4. Form judgments and questions after tracing arguments through the three briefs.

5. Wait until the panel is announced and research the hell out of that panel. Or better yet, wait for somebody here to do it.

6. Don't get thrown off by outside commentators. As a group and individually, barring a new entrant, they are not as talented or knowledgeable as people here.

The people writing these briefs are magicians. You will read the first one and think we are fucked, read the second and pop the champagne, then go back to the first feeling after the reply. Realize that and ignore the spell.
 

Eddie Jurak

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dcmissle said:
The people writing these briefs are magicians. You will read the first one and think we are fucked, read the second and pop the champagne, then go back to the first feeling after the reply. Realize that and ignore the spell.
Well, in my case the first part is already true.  Which is the appropriate thread for kvetching that doesn't add value to this thread?
 

DJnVa

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Rovin Romine said:
 
Saw him twice in SCOTUS cases - Clement's really really good. 
 
Yeah, yeah. You folks said that about Wells too.
 
Seriously though, isn't anyone brought in at this point going to be really really good at this?
 

PedroKsBambino

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DrewDawg said:
 
Yeah, yeah. You folks said that about Wells too.
 
Seriously though, isn't anyone brought in at this point going to be really really good at this?
 
You'd expect so; then again, this is the organization that hired Roger Goddell to run things, so clearly mistakes do get made sometimes.
 

dcmissle

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Yes. But if you are looking for a phenomenal appellate advocate at the height of his powers, and someone named Paul Clement, you would get no argument from people who operate in this part of the profession. They might name others too, but nobody is saying it's not him.

If a Republican succeeds President Obama, there is an excellent chance Clement fills the first Supreme Court vacancy.

Given that Clement picks up the cudgel on this, I will not be surprised if the NFLPA moves off Kessler.
 

garzooma

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Eddie Jurak said:
Do statements like this one make any difference or are they just there as window dressing?
 
https://twitter.com/WALLACHLEGAL/status/658772721422069764
 
And could Kessler respond with the OTL stuff pointing out NFL bias?
 
I wondered about that too.  It seemed to me that a weakness in Brady's case was explaining why the NFL would be out to get him.  The "make-up call" aspect that came out after the Berman decision was a convincing explanation, and it would be nice if that could be worked in.
 
Of course, the fact that Goodell lied in writing in his decision was a pretty decisive demonstration of animus, even if the motive was unclear.
 

nattysez

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dcmissle said:
Given that Clement picks up the cudgel on this, I will not be surprised if the NFLPA moves off Kessler.
Who would you hire if you were the NFLPA? Boies?
 

Ed Hillel

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Eddie Jurak said:
Do statements like this one make any difference or are they just there as window dressing?
 
https://twitter.com/WALLACHLEGAL/status/658772721422069764
 
And could Kessler respond with the OTL stuff pointing out NFL bias?
There are a number of great responses for Kessler, most notably bringing in the issue with the Jets in 2009. If Goodell has no incentive to favor or disfavor, he should be consistent. His record with that sucks, and it's actually legally relevant, as well. There is also the Vikings game, Favre, no punishment for Ghost, etc., but that Jets example is a direct hit.

Using that D+C interview is really absurd. If that is evidence that Brady was deflating footballs--and this is such a massive INTEGRITY OF THE GAME issue--why didn't they investigate him back then?

garzooma said:
 
I wondered about that too.  It seemed to me that a weakness in Brady's case was explaining why the NFL would be out to get him.  The "make-up call" aspect that came out after the Berman decision was a convincing explanation, and it would be nice if that could be worked in.
 
Of course, the fact that Goodell lied in writing in his decision was a pretty decisive demonstration of animus, even if the motive was unclear.
I mean, if we're looking for evidence of bias, the entire start to the sham with the Mort story is a pretty convincing place to start. They leaked false info and never corrected it, there aren't too many ways to interpret that.
 

Rovin Romine

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DrewDawg said:
 
Yeah, yeah. You folks said that about Wells too.
 
Seriously though, isn't anyone brought in at this point going to be really really good at this?
 You'd be surprised.  I've never seen an attorney general do a good job.  (Like an actual one, not an assistant.)
 

soxhop411

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http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/10/26/nfl-appeal-brief-deflategate-ruling-judge-berman-tom-brady?xid=si_social

In its own upcoming brief to be filed by Dec. 7, the NFLPA will aggressively disagree with the points raised by the NFLs appeal. In that same vein, the NFLPA will portray Judge Berman as having correctly applied the law. To accomplish that goal, the NFLPA will raise a series of key arguments, most of which are captured in detail in an SI.com analysis of Judge Bermans decision.

For instance, the NFLPA will highlight the confusing process applied by the NFL in disciplining Brady. Similarly, it will frame the seemingly changing goalposts for why Brady was being punished as valid grounds for Judge Berman to vacate Goodells award.

The NFLPA will also maintain that while federal judges are obligated to accord substantial deference to arbitrators, such deference is not absolutea point which the NFL seemed to accept given that the league, by filing a lawsuit against Brady in New York, sought the approval of a federal judge to uphold Goodells award. Moreover, cases cited by the NFL involve neutral arbitrators rather than an arbitrator like Goodell, who was anything but neutral. The NFLPA will also maintain that the league previously provided investigative notes in the Bounty and Ray Rice disputes and thus should have done the same with Brady.

Also, although factual issues are not at stake in the appeal, you can be sure NFLPA attorneys will mention the various reasons to doubt the NFLs underlying theory of Brady partaking in a ball deflation scheme. This is important because the NFLs brief on Monday assures the Second Circuit that there is significant evidence of Bradys wrongdoing. In response, expect NFLPA attorneys to highlight, among other things, NFL attorney Daniel Nashs admission to Judge Berman that no direct evidence linked Brady to a ball deflation scheme in the 2015 AFC Championship Game.

Expect the NFLPA to also dismiss some of the NFLs reasoning in Mondays brief as irrelevant. For instance, the NFL cites the 1919 Black Sox Scandalwhere gamblers paid off members of the Chicago White Sox to lose against the Cincinnati Reds in the World Seriesas illustrative of the need for commissioners to have sweeping authority to discipline players who attempt to undermine the publics faith in the league. For multiple reasons, the NFLPA is poised to argue that the Black Sox scandal is a poor example to justify Goodells punishment of Brady. First, the Black Sox scandal involved direct proof of wrongdoing, unlike Deflategate where no direct evidence links Brady and where the Ideal Gas Law and confusion about how the referees tested the footballs cloud the indirect evidence. Second, the Black Sox scandal involved a conspiracy to throw games, not gain what would have been a modest and likely inconsequential advantage with slightly under-inflated footballs. Third, the Black Sox scandal occurred in an era before there was collective bargaining between owners and players. This was a time when owners unilaterally imposed employment rules on the players. Those days and their associated legal regimes are long since over. Indeed, when judged by the NFL, Brady was protected by a collectively bargained set of rules that are subject to federal labor law.
Lastly, there remains a crucial unknown factor: the identities of the three judges who will hear the appeal in Brady v. NFL. As explained in another SI.com article on this case, the Second Circuit has a wide-range of conservative, liberal and other judges. It will be the luck of the draw as to which ones are slotted to hear the appeal. If two of the three judges selected are relatively pro-management, Brady would be more likely to lose; if two of the three judges selected are relatively pro-labor, Brady would be more likely to win. Like in a football game, sometimes outcomes in cases can be greatly influenced by sheer luck.
they seriously cited the freaking black sox scandal?
 

Was (Not Wasdin)

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soxhop411 said:
From Page 6 of the brief:

"There is good reason for the Commissioners broad discretion on these matters. The Leagues success depends on its integrity and the publics confidence that its games are fair. The sports worldand the professional leagues, in particularknow all too well what can come if those core values are diminished. See, e.g., E. Asinof, Eight Men Out (1987) (detailing baseballs Black Sox scandal). If the public perceives the games as unfairly tilted in favor of certain players or teams, or even susceptible to such tilts, it will cease valuing professional sports as a paradigm of fair-play, honest effort, and healthy competition. And if players or club owners view the game as tainted, their incentive to compete fairly will be diminished. These matters run to the core of the sports continued vitality."
 

soxfan121

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THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO TALK ABOUT NON-LEGAL STUFF. The #DFG thread is where incredulity and opinion goes. This is the LEGAL thread. The next post(s) not observing Rev's Rules will be summarily executed. 
 
soxhop411 said:
they seriously sited the freaking black sox scandal?
 
It's CITED, not sited. You're giving everyone - lawyers, non-lawyers - a headache.
 

judyb

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There are a number of great responses for Kessler, most notably bringing in the issue with the Jets in 2009. If Goodell has no incentive to favor or disfavor, he should be consistent. His record with that sucks, and it's actually legally relevant, as well. There is also the Vikings game, Favre, no punishment for Ghost, etc., but that Jets example is a direct hit.

Using that D+C interview is really absurd. If that is evidence that Brady was deflating footballs--and this is such a massive INTEGRITY OF THE GAME issue--why didn't they investigate him back then?

I mean, if we're looking for evidence of bias, the entire start to the sham with the Mort story is a pretty convincing place to start. They leaked false info and never corrected it, there aren't too many ways to interpret that.
The NFL leaked lies to the media to convince the public to question the integrity of their games so they could use Article 46 to punish a player for something they don't have enough evidence to convince any reasonable person that the player broke any of their rules.
 

dcmissle

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nattysez said:
Who would you hire if you were the NFLPA? Boies?
There are people, younger, and two individuals in TB's firm who come immediately to mind. I am less familiar with the folks in Kessler's firm.

At its highest level, this is an art requiring a pretty rare skill set. Knowledge of the substantive law is rarely a barrier; unless you are in an esoteric area, the applicable principles and case law can be mastered over a weekend.

This is a hire wire act comparable to speed chess. You are not going to have the marathon sessions Berman permitted. These courts guard their time jealously. Usually, you have 15 minutes a side. Sometimes 10. I would imagine these guys will get 20, but even if the panel is struck by the star power, or really get s into it, they almost certainly will have no more than 25 or 30.

What this means in a closely contested matter is that you can rather easily lose the case with a single answer to a single question. And like football games, most arguments are lost rather than won, IMO.

If I could get a stalemate at oral argument, I'd take it right now. Again, pay close attention to who is on that panel.
 

BroodsSexton

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I said it above, but I will expand. Clement's problem will be that he is looking for a reversal on the law and ALSO to rewrite the record. All he needs is one judge to start expressing concerns about inconsistencies between the characterization of the record and the actual record, and his argument will go off the rails quickly, resulting in a loss of credibility. Credibilty is really important to obtaining a reversal because you are asking the panel to accept your view of the law as correct, as opposed to the long-time federal judge sitting in the district court. It's best to play the facts very, very straight, which he can't do here for all the reasons that have been discussed.

Clement is a rock star no doubt, and the NFL's retainer payments are as green as the next guy, but he's really out on a limb here trying to upend the legal ruling based on a factual record that doesn't exist.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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Goodell on Mike and Mike hiding behind the CBA all while not mentioning that the CBA needs to be fair to both parties. Amazing. If this is the stance for the NFL, Clement is screwed even if they bring up the Garvey ruling.
 

dcmissle

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That is a great point. I have not had a chance to read the brief.

Words matter. Advocates have license to characterize facts in a way that advances their argument. Clement has a broad license and assumed credibility and certainly may draw reasonable, aggressive inferences from undisputed facts.

But you cannot make facts up, and so the line is important.

The first thing I do if I'm responding to this brief is scour the record for inconsistent statements by the NFL, and most notably concessions made by or on behalf of Goodell. And I would make Clement eat those.

You take your case as you find it on appeal. You cannot argue, Roger could have said this, and so I'll say it. And you cannot argue with any persuasion that Roger conceded x, y and,
z but was mistaken.

If somebody has the time -- unfortunately I do not -- it would be a great service to point out instances of this brief playing fast and loose with the record. The record consists of the written submissions and transcript of argument before Berman.
 

Rovin Romine

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BroodsSexton said:
I said it above, but I will expand. Clement's problem will be that he is looking for a reversal on the law and ALSO to rewrite the record. All he needs is one judge to start expressing concerns about inconsistencies between the characterization of the record and the actual record, and his argument will go off the rails quickly, resulting in a loss of credibility. Credibilty is really important to obtaining a reversal because you are asking the panel to accept your view of the law as correct, as opposed to the long-time federal judge sitting in the district court. It's best to play the facts very, very straight, which he can't do here for all the reasons that have been discussed.

Clement is a rock star no doubt, and the NFL's retainer payments are as green as the next guy, but he's really out on a limb here trying to upend the legal ruling based on a factual record that doesn't exist.
 
To build on this there's also the issue of how this ruling may impact future cases.  I think any panel of judges will be very careful in how they frame any final decision.  Courts like Arb.  It limits their workload.  In my mind that's one of the larger issues here.  
 

MarcSullivaFan

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Tyrone Biggums said:
Goodell on Mike and Mike hiding behind the CBA all while not mentioning that the CBA needs to be fair to both parties. Amazing. If this is the stance for the NFL, Clement is screwed even if they bring up the Garvey ruling.
I don't think Garvey is dispositive, despite some juicy soundbites. Garvey was about as clear a case of the district court second guessing factual determinations as you could imagine, and then creating its own remedy and foreclosing further arbitral proceedings.

This case, OTOH, is about the breadth of Goodell's discretion to interpret the CBA (including law of the shop) and about the bizzare manner in which he conducted the hearing.
 

Section15Box113

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Was (Not Wasdin) said:
See, e.g., E. Asinof, Eight Men Out (1987) (detailing baseballs Black Sox scandal).
 
Question for the lawyers.  How often do you see a citation like this one in a brief? 
 
I was under the impression that you typically cite legal cases that you believe demonstrate precedent, rather than other materials publicly available.  Is this citation simply to point the court toward additional context should they wish to seek it (rather than including it directly in the brief)?
 
If this sort of cite is common, I've learned something.  If not, under what circumstances would you opt to work it in?  What are the pros and cons (if any) or doing so?
 

BroodsSexton

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Section15Box113 said:
 
Question for the lawyers.  How often do you see a citation like this one in a brief? 
 
I was under the impression that you typically cite legal cases that you believe demonstrate precedent, rather than other materials publicly available.  Is this citation simply to point the court toward additional context should they wish to seek it (rather than including it directly in the brief)?
 
If this sort of cite is common, I've learned something.  If not, under what circumstances would you opt to work it in?  What are the pros and cons (if any) or doing so?
 
It is not that common, though I wouldn't go so far as to say it is rare. 
 
Legal opinions (along with statutes, regulations, etc.) are typically the source of legal authority for the courts to rely upon in rendering decisions and judgments. Citations to other materials, however, can be used for the purpose of making latitudinal arguments.  In this case, the citation to Eight Men Out is made to highlight the NFL's point that an arbitrator should be given deference to impose discipline on the league, because the public's perception of the game can be adversely affected in the event of scandal.  This is a policy consideration that the NFL wants to highlight and hammer home--the importance of a strong commissioner, and the presumption that Goodell is keeping the league clean. (Of course, I'd take that point and turn it around on them, and say that an commissioner acting arbitrarily and unfairly also affects the public's confidence and perception of the game, which is what we have here).
 
The upside is that it can get the judges thinking laterally about things other than just the strict, binding precedent--which is something that appellate courts are often willing to do.  They are often considering how their decisions, which are binding on lower courts, will impact development of the law, and the impact on the real world. So going beyond precedent can be useful to explain the importance of a decision, or how it will impact the public (particularly, here, where arbitration is a matter of policy preference).  On the other hand, it can look a little cute.  Here, because the point can be so easily turned around on the NFL, to point out that the unfairness of this process also adversely affects the integrity of the game, I don't think it's a very good citation.  As pointed out upthread, there are so many differences between Deflategate and the Black Sox Scandal, that you run the risk of defeating yourself because the comparison is just not applicable.  
 

Reverend

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BroodsSexton said:
 
It is not that common, though I wouldn't go so far as to say it is rare. 
 
Legal opinions (along with statutes, regulations, etc.) are typically the source of legal authority for the courts to rely upon in rendering decisions and judgments. Citations to other materials, however, can be used for the purpose of making latitudinal arguments.  In this case, the citation to Eight Men Out is made to highlight the NFL's point that an arbitrator should be given deference to impose discipline on the league, because the public's perception of the game can be adversely affected in the event of scandal.  This is a policy consideration that the NFL wants to highlight and hammer home--the importance of a strong commissioner, and the presumption that Goodell is keeping the league clean. (Of course, I'd take that point and turn it around on them, and say that an commissioner acting arbitrarily and unfairly also affects the public's confidence and perception of the game, which is what we have here).
 
The upside is that it can get the judges thinking laterally about things other than just the strict, binding precedent--which is something that appellate courts are often willing to do.  They are often considering how their decisions, which are binding on lower courts, will impact development of the law, and the impact on the real world. So going beyond precedent can be useful to explain the importance of a decision, or how it will impact the public (particularly, here, where arbitration is a matter of policy preference).  On the other hand, it can look a little cute.  Here, because the point can be so easily turned around on the NFL, to point out that the unfairness of this process also adversely affects the integrity of the game, I don't think it's a very good citation.  As pointed out upthread, there are so many differences between Deflategate and the Black Sox Scandal, that you run the risk of defeating yourself because the comparison is just not applicable.  
 
Excellent explanation--I just wanted to point out that one the Supreme Court's most famous cases, Brown v. Board had to go "outside" the law and  point to social science to demonstrate that segregation in schools was a real social concern. In effect, law is a box about authority, so "social significance" can often not be proved there.
 
It's also worth noting that the further justices get from considering significance in clear legal terms (e.g. people are not being treated equally) but looking at social impact, the further they get from their area of competency. And, historically speaking, the more likely they are to make what are often looked at later as remarkably shitty decisions.
 
In terms of this case, it seems a little self-important to me. OMG-OH NOES people might not trust NFL football!!!
 

PedroKsBambino

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There is no Rev said:
 
Excellent explanation--I just wanted to point out that one the Supreme Court's most famous cases, Brown v. Board had to go "outside" the law and  point to social science to demonstrate that segregation in schools was a real social concern. In effect, law is a box about authority, so "social significance" can often not be proved there.
 
It's also worth noting that the further justices get from considering significance in clear legal terms (e.g. people are not being treated equally) but looking at social impact, the further they get from their area of competency. And, historically speaking, the more likely they are to make what are often looked at later as remarkably shitty decisions.
 
In terms of this case, it seems a little self-important to me. OMG-OH NOES people might not trust NFL football!!!
 
Though, it is somewhat different to cite a series of social sciences studies (which is what Brown did) focused on assessing the impact of the specific policy in question, and some of which were peer reviewed, than a non-fiction book which did not purport to study broader impact of a single event.
 

BroodsSexton

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PedroKsBambino said:
 
Though, it is somewhat different to cite a series of social sciences studies (which is what Brown did) focused on assessing the impact of the specific policy in question, and some of which were peer reviewed, than a non-fiction book which did not purport to study broader impact of a single event.
 
Yes, this is correct.  There have been pendulum swings in the law as to the extent to which a court can or should go outside of the record to look at additional evidence or social authorities in assessing the proper development of the law. But there is a difference between a "Brandeis Brief"--which can be used as a generic term to refer to any brief that compiles social science or other evidence in an effort to persuade a court that a particular ruling is warranted/necessary--and a throwaway reference intended to tar a party by raising the stench of corruption, which is how I read this citation. It's too cute. I wouldn't be surprised to see a footnote in the response brief taking them to task on it.
 
 
There is no Rev said:
 
Excellent explanation--I just wanted to point out that one the Supreme Court's most famous cases, Brown v. Board had to go "outside" the law and  point to social science to demonstrate that segregation in schools was a real social concern. In effect, law is a box about authority, so "social significance" can often not be proved there.
 
 
The original "Brandeis Brief" goes back earlier, and was submitted by Brandeis in 1908, in connection with Muller v. Oregon, one of the overtime cases related to Lochner.  Brandeis submitted extensive social-science evidence that long hours led to health problems and other negative effects for women, so as to justify upholding restrictions on the number of hours women were permitted to work. 
 

Was (Not Wasdin)

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There is no Rev said:
 
Excellent explanation--I just wanted to point out that one the Supreme Court's most famous cases, Brown v. Board had to go "outside" the law and  point to social science to demonstrate that segregation in schools was a real social concern. In effect, law is a box about authority, so "social significance" can often not be proved there.
 
It's also worth noting that the further justices get from considering significance in clear legal terms (e.g. people are not being treated equally) but looking at social impact, the further they get from their area of competency. And, historically speaking, the more likely they are to make what are often looked at later as remarkably shitty decisions.
 
In terms of this case, it seems a little self-important to me. OMG-OH NOES people might not trust NFL football!!!
 
 
This was exactly my take on it as well.  They burn a paragraph or two in the brief on the "integrity of the game" argument, which seems like too much to me when Goodell's record has been spotty and inconsistent on this very point (Jets, Vikes/Panthers).  Then again, it just adds another issue that the Brady team has to address in the briefs and maybe in the oral arguments.  
 

Bleedred

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Was (Not Wasdin) said:
 
 
This was exactly my take on it as well.  They burn a paragraph or two in the brief on the "integrity of the game" argument, which seems like too much to me when Goodell's record has been spotty and inconsistent on this very point (Jets, Vikes/Panthers).  Then again, it just adds another issue that the Brady team has to address in the briefs and maybe in the oral arguments.  
I've completed the factual sections and didn't find any serious inconsistencies with the record.  As noted above in a separate post, there's this quibble of a mistake, but not sure how much anyone will care about it:
 
Page 16 of the Appeal brief to 2nd circuit:  "At the hearing, Brady confirmed that, on March 6, 'the very day that he was interviewed by  Mr. Wells and his investigative team,' he 'instructed his assistant to destroy the cellphone that he had been using since early November 2014..."
 
Page 1 of the Decision:  "The most significant new information that emerged in connection with the appeal was evidence that on or about March 6 - the very day that he was interviewed by Mr. Wells...."
 
I was amused by this breathless recitation of the record and damning facts:  (Page 11 of the Appeal brief to 2nd circuit)  "The Wells Report also found considerable evidence that in response to their demands, Brady had provided both men with autographs and other memorabilia.  McNally often asked Jastremski to convey to Brady his demands for items of value (e.g. "cash and newkicks"), and on at least one occasion McNally suggested that he was prepared to disclose the arrangement ("not going to espn....yet") if his demands were not met.   The two were, in fact, handsomely rewarded. (my emphasis in italics)  For example, on January 10, 2015, before the Patriots' AFC divisional playoff game-the game before the AFC Championship Game-Brady signed a game-worn jersey and two footballs for McNally."
 
Oh no!  Brady gave him a signed game shirt and 2 footballs!!!!!!!
 
Question:  Does the lack of context by the briefer (i.e. how routine it is for QBs to compensate ballboys this way) call into question the credibility of the drafter at all?  Or is it incumbent on the response brief to call that out?
 

dcmissle

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Thanks Bleedred. Certainly not surprised they did not step in it.

WBV"s initial post yesterday afternoon, which cites the brief having TB in the scheme on game day, made me wonder. I recalled Nash conceding to Berman that there is no direct evidence. No smoking gun re game day itself. And that he did.

But Nash preserved the argument Clement now makes in his argument to Berman on August 19. I checked the transcript. The evidence is circumstantial, he said. So this is fair advocacy and will be viewed as such.
 

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I admit to relying on WBV's initial post, too (and haven't read the brief). I still think it's a steep uphill battle if they are arguing for a different view of the proceedings than was articulated by Berman, as well as a different view of the law.
 

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Right. But it's one thing to more attractively re-package an account presented below, however misbegotten it may be. It's quite another thing to invent on appeal yet a third version (in this case) and try to walk back concessions made by predecessor counsel below. This brief does not do the latter, which would have been a massive unforced error uncharacteristic of counsel.
 

edmunddantes

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Aren't they trying to lower that hill by stating they definitely want this to be "de novo" review or is "de novo" normal practice for appeals at this level?
 

Myt1

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There is no Rev said:
 
Excellent explanation--I just wanted to point out that one the Supreme Court's most famous cases, Brown v. Board had to go "outside" the law and  point to social science to demonstrate that segregation in schools was a real social concern. In effect, law is a box about authority, so "social significance" can often not be proved there.
 
It's also worth noting that the further justices get from considering significance in clear legal terms (e.g. people are not being treated equally) but looking at social impact, the further they get from their area of competency. And, historically speaking, the more likely they are to make what are often looked at later as remarkably shitty decisions.
 
In terms of this case, it seems a little self-important to me. OMG-OH NOES people might not trust NFL football!!!
There's always an inclination to run out a parade of horribles that would be the logical result of allowing the ruling to stand. The thing is, they really have to be both horrible and the logical result of the ruling below, or else you just look silly.

I think that's likely to be the case here. Not dispositive, obviously, but this strikes me as trying too hard by about an order of magnitude, and likely to bring about the same sort of disdain as Berman had for the PED analogy, at least in a certain segment of the judiciary.
 

Rovin Romine

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I've skimmed the brief.  
 
To my surprise, I find it to be a little strident, a tad too much hide-the-ball, at least to the point where it puts my antennae up.  
 
From what I can see there strongest argument is that LMRA deference essentially closes the door to any circuit court's review of an arbitration award, absent fraud or dishonesty.  Yet instead of going with that, and arguing there was no fraud or dishonesty, the brief seems to slide into quibbling - Berman got it wrong, here's why you should get it right, Tom Brady is a really bad guy.  (The brief does address fraud and dishonesty, but not head on, in the context of the standard that makes up its strongest argument; I need to digest and think about this some more.)
 
Anyway, I think my main reservation is that Berman never reached the issue of whether Goodell was impartial.  And it's on that issue that the snake sort of eats its own tail - Berman could have easily found all kinds of impartiality from the record.   And he specifically found that excluding Pash violated 9 U.S.C. § 10(a)(3).  It prejudiced Brady, who was not able to examine whether the Wells report was "independent."  
Berman's decision - https://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/278101662?access_key=key-iSpBcG4vSeX1UO1uye6P&allow_share=true&escape=false&view_mode=scroll
 
I think Clement's response to that is a little too cute. To my mind the argument of whether or not Goodall was biased/dishonest can't really be extricated from the fact that he had his lead counsel create and/or edit the investigative report that was the cornerstone of the imposed discipline.  Therefore, you have to allow cross examination/discovery on the issue and to deny it is a pretty clear violation of due process, no matter how deferential one wants to be to any contrary "factual findings."
 
I can certainly see the argument going the other way, but at the end of the day there has to be some level of egregiousness that allows the courts to overturn an arbitrator's findings.  The courts will want to keep that line fuzzy, since a bright line rule in that area will just serve to say "Hey arbitrators, you can chuck due process out the window up to this bright line."  In the context of this case the Commissioners' office is the investigator, the prosecutor, and the judge (in essence).  It's sort of the inverse of what we'd think of as a system of justice, or even a system of "arbitration" between two sides.  Whether or not it was contracted for under LMRA, I'd hope that in this sort of context the courts would take a long hard look at fundamental due process issues (notice, right to cross examine, etc.) even if only as a proxy for "partiality."  
 

twothousandone

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Rovin Romine said:
 
To build on this there's also the issue of how this ruling may impact future cases.  I think any panel of judges will be very careful in how they frame any final decision.  Courts like Arb.  It limits their workload.  In my mind that's one of the larger issues here.  
Could you also say that, because they like arbitration, courts have to react negatively to overreach by an arbitrator?  IOW, if (and a big if) they affirm that an arbitrator has incredible powers, aren't future collective bargaining agreements likely to seek to limit the areas where an arbitrator can rule, thus bringing more things to court?
 
Edit: Kind of like you just wrote.
 

Rovin Romine

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twothousandone said:
Could you also say that, because they like arbitration, courts have to react negatively to overreach by an arbitrator?  IOW, if (and a big if) they affirm that an arbitrator has incredible powers, aren't future collective bargaining agreements likely to seek to limit the areas where an arbitrator can rule, thus bringing more things to court?
 
Edit: Kind of like you just wrote.
 
Yeah, my points were kind of obvious, but sometimes obvious points are sort of first principles, and thus are worth pitching into a discussion.  There's definitely some tension here from an administration of justice perspective; the courts want arb to work because it resolves disputes without burden the courts.  Yet courts don't want to create an entirely separate and unreviewable system of justice.  Yet courts don't want to open the floodgates and allow all arb decisions to be second guessed.  Yet arb needs to be seen to have a certain element of fairness (or at least predictability) to it.  Etc. etc.  Round and round.
 
(Personally, how the NFL handled this seems flat out wrong.  While it was permissible for Goodell to act as the arbitrator, everyone would have been better served if there was a truly independent arbitrator appointed.   Not that this means anything - it just gives the case a certain flavor, if you will, a flavor that Berman clearly found unpalatable.) 
 

BroodsSexton

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I don't know how likely it is in a higher profile case like this, but it is possible that this case gets a non-precedential affirmance, if the Court doesn't want to create bad law, or views the issues raised by the NFL as trivial/better resolved by the District Court under existing case law. Many Second Circuit decisions are not published as binding precedent.
 

dcmissle

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Yes. Not likely but certainly possible. The Ginger Hammer would go nuts.
 

PedroKsBambino

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MarcSullivaFan said:
They are so filing a petition for cert if they lose at the Second Circuit. Lol.
 
It would be interesting to see what other sports do in that scenario.   If you were on MLB's legal team would you want these POS facts potentially setting precedent for you?
 

BroodsSexton

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SOSH should definitely seek leave to file an amicus brief on behalf of Patriots fans, with a Brandeis brief setting out the myriad ways in which Goodell's arbitrary disciplinary conduct has had an adverse impact on fan confidence in the game, throughout the country. What's the entity's status? Anyone up on member organization standing doctrine?
 

WayBackVazquez

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PedroKsBambino said:
Procedurally, since Berman left several issues open and did not make findings of fact it's almost impossible for the Second Circuit to do anything but remand or affirm here, isn't it?   I understand the attempt to get CA2 to do otherwise and uphold the suspension, but there's almost no way that succeeds given the open factual questions, seems to me.  Especially so since 'evident partiality' is one of the ones left open
 
We discussed this a bit before, but essentially, if the COA wants to do it, it can.
 
 

WayBackVazquez said:
Appellate courts employ all kinds of exceptions to evade the general rule that a court should not decide an issue not passed on in the court below. Of those, the ones that come to mind that an unfriendly panel here could assert are (1) the correct result is "clear"; (2) the matter concerns a purely legal question; or (3) the factual record is sufficiently developed that the COA can decide the matter without wasting judicial resources on remand.

Point being, if a panel wants to make a final decision in the league's favor, there are ways to do so.
 
Clement set up all three points in his opening brief, though he referred to the NFLPA's other asserted grounds as "plainly" rather than "clearly" meritless.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I think it's a pretty good brief.  It's important to understand that the judges usually are not reading the briefs as they come in, but read them as a set once the briefing is completed.  In fact, the panel may not even be assigned internally yet.  Given the high profile nature of the case, maybe the judges are reading this stuff as it comes in.  But essentially, they will have the briefs as a set.  Many judges don't read the briefs in order.  Some read the reply first, to get a handle on what's truly disputed.  Some read sections and then read the responsive sections in the other briefs.  The point is that reading this brief now, without the other briefs, is distorted because you don't know exactly what the full story will be when the people deciding the case are looking at it.
 
I don't like having the middle brief in a de novo appeal.  (WBV and I had a spat about whether this truly is a de novo appeal, and I think it is essentially, but we'll see what Kessler says about it.)  Ceding the first and last word is tough, and Clement et al. are plainly playing to win it in the reply brief.  It's a great strategy in this case.  Make yourself hard to pin down, set some traps, and then hammer the reply.  I thought where the NFL got into trouble in the district court was when it took absolute positions and then cited cases that didn't entirely support those positions.  This brief is perfectly comfortable not citing cases at major points, and even not providing record citations in places where one would expect to find one, and then using case authority only where the citation is solid on a more general point.  Not citing a case for every proposition or a record cite for every factual assertion is something that junior lawyers at appeals seminars would hear are terrible sins.  But the truth is that sometimes it's a winning strategy, in the hands of an experienced appellate lawyer.  It can backfire, but the reason it backfires is usually because it will cause a court to question your credibility.  A former SG comes to court with credibility intact and this is exactly why you hire one -- they can get away with this stuff in moderation.  Here, it will be hard for the union to pin the NFL down -- take the section on "arbitral precedent" as just one example.  Instead of taking an absolutist position and disregarding precedent on law of the shop, they focus on the district court and claim it improperly expanded the doctrine of law of the shop, instead of saying it doesn't exist.  It's essentially the same argument, but without taking on an absolute position that's relatively easier to knock down.
 
Where I think the brief is particular clever is in taking some liberties with the factual record and presenting a narrative about Brady's supposed scheme as though it's undisputed.  But again, it's all a bit fuzzy -- he leaves himself just enough of a tether to the record that it's a bit hard to call him on it.  He gives himself the out that he's fairly characterizing what the commissioner found.  But what he's really doing is creating a difficulty for the NFLPA.  What do you here?  Do you try to call him on it?  If you do, you set yourself up for a response that goes something like, "see, they are arguing the facts just like they did to trick the district court, and everyone knows that the district court can't second guess on factual findings".  How Kessler handles this will be interesting.  Presumably, he will downplay it, by noting a few places where the NFL has taken liberties, but also try to suggest it's not where the action is.  I think he has to do it that way -- but that's a modest victory for the NFL, because they've essentially stolen the narrative by putting Kessler in a difficult position if he tries to write a brief that constructs a different factual narrative.  
 
I may have some small picture comments later.  But I think the ground on which the NFL is trying to win this thing is well chosen and pretty clever.  They seem to feel they are weakest on notice -- and I guess the way Berman decided the case they have to focus on it -- so they are trying in 70 pages to make a relatively simple point.  It goes something like this:  (1) If the district court were correct that this was a mere equipment violation, perhaps it would have had a point.  (2) But this is more.  It's about a scheme to violate the most fundamental set of precepts that a sports league has regarding fair competition, and then to cover it up.  (3) You might disagree.  You might think, "nah, it's really not.  It's really just about equipment and the rest is window dressing."  Or maybe you think like Judge Berman that deflating footballs isn't a big deal.  And maybe that's a perfectly reasonable thing to think, and something that a reasonable person like Judge Berman might think.  But that's not the test.  The Commissioner thought it was about more.  Much more.  And you have to defer to him.  Because that's the law.  And because that's exactly the stuff that the union gave him the power to consider and decide when it negotiated the CBA.
 
Look forward to Kessler's response.  He has a lot to do in 14,000 words.
 

joe dokes

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DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
 
 
I don't like having the middle brief in a de novo appeal.  (WBV and I had a spat about whether this truly is a de novo appeal, and I think it is essentially, but we'll see what Kessler says about it.)  Ceding the first and last word is tough, and Clement et al. are plainly playing to win it in the reply brief.  It's a great strategy in this case.  Make yourself hard to pin down, set some traps, and then hammer the reply.  I thought where the NFL got into trouble in the district court was when it took absolute positions and then cited cases that didn't entirely support those positions.  This brief is perfectly comfortable not citing cases at major points, and even not providing record citations in places where one would expect to find one, and then using case authority only where the citation is solid on a more general point.  Not citing a case for every proposition or a record cite for every factual assertion is something that junior lawyers at appeals seminars would hear are terrible sins.  But the truth is that sometimes it's a winning strategy, in the hands of an experienced appellate lawyer.  It can backfire, but the reason it backfires is usually because it will cause a court to question your credibility.  A former SG comes to court with credibility intact and this is exactly why you hire one -- they can get away with this stuff in moderation.  Here, it will be hard for the union to pin the NFL down -- take the section on "arbitral precedent" as just one example.  Instead of taking an absolutist position and disregarding precedent on law of the shop, they focus on the district court and claim it improperly expanded the doctrine of law of the shop, instead of saying it doesn't exist.  It's essentially the same argument, but without taking on an absolute position that's relatively easier to knock down.
 
 
 
.
 
With the caveat that I have not read it.....Another possible avenue of backfire is if by playing it vague in the opening brief (and depending on the NFLPA's brief), the NFL leaves itself to making the actual well-developed argument in reply, which the court might reject out of hand ('no making arguments for the first time in reply," etc).  I would suspect that someone as experienced as Clement, et al would fall on the correct side of this line, but trying to prop up Goodell's goalpost-shifting clusterfuck might place them in some tough spots.