Sons of Peter McNeeley- Boxing Thread

allaboutthesox · Jun 16, 2009

QUOTE (BGrif21125 @ Jun 16 2009, 11:39 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2361669
What makes me skeptical about the conspiracy theories is that I don't necessarily believe that poor tiquet sales would seriously hurt Floyd's negotiating strength when demanding a 50% or greater share against Pacquiao.

Obviously, slow tiquet sales against Marquez wouldn't help his case, but PPV buys account for the majority of a fight's revenue, not tiquet sales. And as long as Mayweather-Marquez could get more PPV buys than the ~400K that Pacquiao-Marquez II did last year (which I'm confident would happen, slow tiquet sales or not), then Floyd can show up at the negotiating table and state that Mayweather-Marquez did more PPVs than Pacquiao-Marquez, Mayweather-Hatton did more PPVs than Pacquiao-Hatton, and Mayweather-De La Hoya did more PPVs than Pacquiao-De La Hoya. And while Floyd is often guilty of making outrageous claims, in this one particular case he'd have a fairly valid point IMO.

I think slow tiquet sales for Mayweather-Marquez are due to the tickets being grossly overpriced at a time of the year (mid-summer) when people aren't itching to go to Vegas and spend several days in 110-degree heat. I do think there is a solid amount of interest in the fight from a $50 PPV standpoint.

BINGO! (bold statement) I would pay the money to watch the fight as I am sure many of us would. The bottomline for us as fans is that this fight not happening really sucks for us as it seemed we were going to have a spectacular year of fights and potential fights with all the big names fighting.

Why is September 19th the only next available date though to schedule this fight?

shawnrbu · Jun 16, 2009

Pacquiao-Cotto is penciled in for November 14th at the MGM Grand in Vegas.

ElUno20 · Jun 16, 2009

I hope cotto holds firm on the weight. It's his biggest advantage and may be his only shot at winning.

allaboutthesox · Jun 16, 2009

QUOTE (shawnrbu @ Jun 16 2009, 05:12 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2362210
Pacquiao-Cotto is penciled in for November 14th at the MGM Grand in Vegas.

Shawnbru beat me to it. Here is another link that states basically he just did.

Cotto-Pacquiao

What I find very interesting is the idea of Cotto hiring Emmanuel Steward as a potential trainer for his fight with Pacman. I hate to toot my own horn ( :lol: ) but I made mention of this in the Cotto-Clottey thread.

QUOTE
I do think that Cotto has some serious work to put in. He may want to look at hiring a top notch well known trainer to make him a more complete fighter in my opinion. His defense could use a little more work as he leaves himself willing to take shots with his guard down to land a few shots.

The article is a decent read as it talks about Cotto taking time off to allow his cut to heal as well. I can only hope though he still decides to exercise a bit and keep his weight down. I need to find the link, but I read somewhere that Cotto will allow his weight to balloon in between fights. Cotto needs to maintain some fitness while his cut heals and go all out before getting into the ring with Pacquiao.

It is all speculation at this point right now.

allaboutthesox · Jun 16, 2009

Clottey targeting Williams.

Clottey vs Williams

Well, that would be an interesting fight to say the least. (If it should occur)

Naehring11 · Jun 17, 2009

QUOTE (BGrif21125 @ Jun 17 2009, 11:43 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2363694
Fwiw, I think Williams is a very bad matchup for Clottey, and is a fight he'd almost certainly lose. If I were Clottey, I'd set my sights on trying to get a fight with either Mosley or Berto (which, I'll grant, will be easier said than done).

I agree that Williams would probably win, but there is an almost zero chance of Clottey getting a fight with Mosley or Berto. They won't put Berto in with a risky opponent like Clottey and Mosley doesn't seem to be interested in fighting anyone who won't bring in the big bucks.

I think Clottey would destroy Berto.

allaboutthesox · Jun 17, 2009

QUOTE (Naehring11 @ Jun 17 2009, 10:50 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2363710
I think Clottey would destroy Berto.

I have never seen Berto fight, but from different things I have read and come across it seems as if people see Berto in a different light. As "a fighter who is not really that good, but yet manages to hold a title" type of chatter is what I have read.

Is Berto a bad fighter? Like I said, I have never seen the man fight, but the more I hear his name the more interested I am in seeing what he actually brings to the welterweight table.

ElUno20 · Jun 17, 2009

Berto is an up and coming young fighter. His fight with Collazo in January is still my FOTY. Think less of a "belt holder" type of fighter and more of his team has brought him up carefully (maybe too carefully in some people's opinion). When he's "on" aka when someone is dumb enough to trade with him, he is superb and a must watch.

eddiew112 · Jun 17, 2009

QUOTE (allaboutthesox @ Jun 17 2009, 06:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2364536
I have never seen Berto fight, but from different things I have read and come across it seems as if people see Berto in a different light. As "a fighter who is not really that good, but yet manages to hold a title" type of chatter is what I have read.

Is Berto a bad fighter? Like I said, I have never seen the man fight, but the more I hear his name the more interested I am in seeing what he actually brings to the welterweight table.

IMO, Berto gets an unfair shake in the boxing world. It seems like everyone is always trying to find a reason to hate/doubt this guy. First it was that he lacked stamina, then he lacked toughness, and now people are mad that he isn't sweeping the scorecards. The fight against Urango was an utterly dominating performance. Although the audience had to listen to Kellerman repeatedly say "he isn't creating the necessary hype", I thought that was a load of shit. No, Berto did not get a flashy knockout, but that's probably because you could hit Urango with a tire iron and he would keep charging forward. Instead, I thought Berto showed a little bit of everything. He can box, he can punch, and he has solid command of the ring. However, I would probably be higher on Berto than most on this board.

On another note, how about we just suspend boxing until we can see Mayweather-Pacquiao fight. Who the fuck wants to see Miguel "The Warrior" Cotto get the shit knocked out of him by Pacquiao? What a disgrace. If only boxing were logical like every other sport, i.e the best fucking fighters fought each other!

The fact that we are actually excited about the welterweight division is a good sign of how horrible the state of boxing is right now. We've got a fighter that is fast approaching 40 (Mosley), a cheater (Margarito), another overrated PR "warrior" (Cotto), two great champions that won't fight anyone (Pacquiao and PBF), a freak (Williams), a prospect no one will fight (Berto), and a guy who doesn't actually want to win (Clottey) Great!

EDIT: I apologize, but I just want to love boxing again.

eddiew112 · Jun 18, 2009

QUOTE (BGrif21125 @ Jun 18 2009, 08:29 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2365800
Eddie, don't you think this is a little harsh?

I don't think Cotto looked that good against Clottey, but I still think he'd have a very legit chance against Pacquiao. Cotto is on a whole different level from Ricky Hatton or a 36-yr-old weight-drained De La Hoya. That would be a huge test for Pacquiao.

It is a little harsh, yes. My bias mainly draws from my obsessive desire to see the Mayweather-Pacquiao fight happen. It's not often that you have the undisputed two best fighters in the sport in the same weight class. Aside from that, I think their styles will make for a classic match-up.

But, on the Cotto-Pacquiao thread, I can't see Cotto coming with any sort of answer to Pacquiao's hand speed. Cotto will probably make it through the entire fight, but it's going to be a brutal 12 round ass-kicking. If Cotto was getting beaten to the punch by Clottey, then I can only imagine what Pacquiao will do to him.

Naehring11 · Jun 18, 2009

QUOTE (allaboutthesox @ Jun 17 2009, 06:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2364536
I have never seen Berto fight, but from different things I have read and come across it seems as if people see Berto in a different light. As "a fighter who is not really that good, but yet manages to hold a title" type of chatter is what I have read.

Is Berto a bad fighter? Like I said, I have never seen the man fight, but the more I hear his name the more interested I am in seeing what he actually brings to the welterweight table.

He isn't a bad fighter at all. He's just young and only has a belt because the opportunity was there to fight a mediocre fighter for a belt. He has great hand speed, but isn't very accurate with his punches. It seems like his development has stalled somewhat. I don't think he has really improved at all over the past couple of years, although Collazo is a very good fighter and he was able to get a win over him.

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket · Jun 18, 2009

QUOTE (BGrif21125 @ Jun 18 2009, 05:38 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2366932
Hey, you're definitely not alone in being obsessed with seeing Mayweather-Pacquiao get done. I think we all have that one at #1 on our wish list. But in the meantime, Pacquiao-Cotto is a pretty damn good consolation prize. It may not be a #1 vs. #2 PFP fight, but a #1 vs. a Top 10 guy who's about 15 pounds bigger is an intriguing matchup in its own right.

Cotto definitely won't be able to match Pacquiao's speed, but he's not just going to run straight at Pacquiao like a fool, like Hatton did. Cotto knows how to be patient and how to go about breaking someone down. If Cotto boxes smart and survives Pacquiao's early onslaught, I'll be very interested to see how Pacquiao looks after 7, 8, or 9 rounds against a great body puncher like Cotto who will probably weigh ~160 on fight night. Or another way to look at it... Pacquiao destroyed Oscar and Hatton, but does anyone think those 2 guys wouldn't have gotten their asses kicked by Cotto too?

I'm not as enamored of Pacquiao-Cotto as you are, though part of that may be due to, like eddie, my excitement of the eventual Pac-PBF showdown. It's extremely rare in the history of boxing that two fighters could simultaneously be considered the legitimate #1 pound-for-pound champ. It's even more incredibly rare that those two fighters are close enough in weight to actually fight each other. So I think everyone with the possible exception of Bob Arum is saying, "Make this fight happen NOW!"

The fact is, that fight is just not going to happen now, or any earlier than next May. So given that sad reality, and given that Pacquiao-Marquez III, the next-best fight out there, isn't going to happen anytime soon either, I'd have to admit that Pacquiao-Cotto is about as good as it gets. Oh, wait a minute. Pacquiao-Mosley would be better.

So I admit I'm damning this fight with faint praise, but given that it's at least the second-best makeable fight out there, I guess I'm good with it.

I mean, you have to like Cotto as a fighter. The Margarito debacle aside, he's got heart, pretty decent boxing ability and a personable if rather taciturn public persona. But his game has some pretty big holes, once you get up to that elite level. I assume that (if the rumors are true) he wants to hire Emanuel Steward to help him with his defense. But I don't think there's much Steward (or anyone) could do with Cotto over the course of a single training camp at this stage of his career, except maybe turn him into more of a jab-and-grabber. But that style doesn't seem to be in Cotto's nature. I think his best defense will always be his offense, and against Pacquiao, regardless of the weight difference, that's going to be a loser. Pacquiao feasts on easy-to-hit fighters and Cotto is pretty easy to hit.

It also seemed to me watching the Clottey fight, as you mentioned earlier, that for whatever reason (I don't even want to speculate) Cotto has lost some hand speed. For several fights in a row, I recall, his hand-speed seemed to get better and better, culminating in the Mosley fight when he was the equal of one of the fastest fighters in the game today. That Mosley fight was the high point of Cotto's career in a lot of ways. But he'll need to be at least that good or better to have a prayer against Pacquiao, who combines Mosley's speed with Mayweather's accuracy and Margarito's relentless pressure. That's a lot of weapons in the arsenal. Cotto's ONLY advantage is size.

That's why I see this fight as a somewhat more competitive version of Pacquiao-Oscar. I think the fight will go largely the same way and I expect that Cotto's corner (whoever happens to be staffing it) or Cotto himself will stop the fight sometime after the 9th round.

I agree that Cotto probably would have beaten Oscar in much the same way that Pacquiao did, but I think that he would have had problems with Hatton. I think Cotto wins the fight, but by a relatively close decision. I just don't think Cotto has ever responded well to an opponent's aggression. He vastly prefers to be the aggressor at all times. And say what you want about Hatton, but he's nothing if not a pure, come-forward fighter. And his hand-speed is rather underrated. I think he would have sent Cotto into the racetrack mode that we saw in the final rounds of the Mosely fight.

Anyway, Pacquiao-Cotto is apparently what we've got and the best I can say about it is, things could certainly be, and have been in recent years, a lot worse.

Naehring11 · Jun 19, 2009

QUOTE (BGrif21125 @ Jun 19 2009, 08:19 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2368130
Klitschko-Chagaev live on ESPN Classic tomorrow at 5.

I've never seen Chagaev before, but I'm just hoping it's a better fight than the last time Wlad faced an Eastern European southpaw. Klitschko-Ibragimov was so bad, that I actually fell asleep around Round 10.

While I was much more interested in Wlad-Haye, it's hard to complain about this new matchup, because when you need a late replacement, it usually ends up being someone who's a LOT worse than Chagaev. I just hope it's semi-entertaining.

P.S. I think Versus has a live fight from Montreal tonight.

Chagaev isn't a bad fighter and the times I've seen him he tried to make the fight entertaining, but he is going to get his ass knocked out tomorrow. No one except Vitali poses any threat whatsoever to Wlad. I suspect the fight will be more interesting than Wlad's recent fights (couldn't be worse), but will end in a KO in the middle rounds.

CP3 · Jun 19, 2009

QUOTE (Naehring11 @ Jun 19 2009, 09:43 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2368219
Chagaev isn't a bad fighter and the times I've seen him he tried to make the fight entertaining, but he is going to get his ass knocked out tomorrow. No one except Vitali poses any threat whatsoever to Wlad. I suspect the fight will be more interesting than Wlad's recent fights (couldn't be worse), but will end in a KO in the middle rounds.

What does that say about the state of the Heavyweight division when no one poses a threat to Wladamir Klitschko. Klitschko was knocked out by Corey Sanders a few years ago, and now no one can compete with him.

The Heavyweight Division should be contracted. Absolute disgrace. And the fact there is not even a competitive American Heavyweight is appalling.

Naehring11 · Jun 19, 2009

QUOTE (CP3 @ Jun 19 2009, 11:55 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2368423
What does that say about the state of the Heavyweight division when no one poses a threat to Wladamir Klitschko. Klitschko was knocked out by Corey Sanders a few years ago, and now no one can compete with him.

The Heavyweight Division should be contracted. Absolute disgrace. And the fact there is not even a competitive American Heavyweight is appalling.

A few years ago in 2003. And if you can't see the difference in Wlad then and now then you haven't been paying attention.

The heavyweight division is definitely garbage, but Klitschko as champion isn't evidence of that in itself. He is an excellent fighter and is underrated because he has nobody worthwhile to fight.

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket · Jun 20, 2009

Very solid, dominant albeit not terribly exciting performance by Klitschko in disposing of Ruslan Chagaev. I'd rate this as Klitschko's most impressive performance. Chagaev may not be the second coming of Rocky Marciano, but he is the consensus best heavyweight in the world not named Klitschko, and Chagaev was certainly trying to win. But Wlad was in total control from the opening bell. Impressive showing.

That said, Klitschko did look kind of one dimensional. He pumped that tried-and-true 1-2 combination over and over again but Chagaev maintained just enough defense to keep a KO shot from landing cleanly. If Klitschko had tried a few differenr angles, or had gone to the body to bring Chagaev's hands down, he probably could have finished the fight with the definitive KO that everyone wants to see.

shawnrbu · Jun 21, 2009

What is the secret to Montreal's boxing success? Every time I see a card there, whether it's ShoBox, Friday Night Fights, or a Versus special, there is a packed house of enthusiastic boxing fans. I love the atmosphere on TV and I can imagine it being top notch excitement to attend in person. Does all it take to bang out a big house in Montreal is to feature a very good local fighter? Are the tickets more affordable than most boxing towns? Why don't we see any of the megafights happen in Montreal with a local like Pascal or Bute featured as the top undercard attraction?

Infield Infidel · Jun 26, 2009

So Marquez-Mayweather is back on for Sept 19. Does this raise or lessen the chances of a Pacquiao fight in 2010 if Mayweather wins?

Naehring11 · Jun 26, 2009

QUOTE (Infield Infidel @ Jun 26 2009, 02:08 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2383343
So Marquez-Mayweather is back on for Sept 19. Does this raise or lessen the chances of a Pacquiao fight in 2010 if Mayweather wins?

It would seem to raise the chances since the Cotto-Pacquiao fight is being worked on for 11/14. If Pacquiao and Mayweather take care of business they would seemingly be lined up to fight around April.

shawnrbu · Jun 27, 2009

It's something of a waste of time that we have to go through a lopsided matchup like Mayweather/Marquez and then Pacquiao has a dangerous fight with Cotto. I'm not a big UFC guy, but boxing sure could use someone like a Dana White to get Mayweather and Pacquiao in the ring a.s.a.p. This fight really should have happened in 2009. Too many bad things can happen when you delay a megafight of this caliber.

ElUno20 · Jun 28, 2009

Golden Boy's money prospect Mr. Victor Ortiz just gave a no mas after a short but brutal fight. If he was smart enough to put his left hand on his chin he would have won tonight. He got destroyed by that right hand. Too much machismo not enough brains tonight.

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket · Jun 28, 2009

QUOTE (BGrif21125 @ Jun 28 2009, 08:36 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2385858
Great toe-to-toe fight with a bizarre ending.

If you're Golden Boy, it's gotta be worrisome that your top prospect laughed his way thru an entire postfight interview after a huge upset loss. That was odd to say the least.

Ortiz's comments after the fight were unusual to say the least, but hey, why not? First, I wouldn't judge a young kid (just 22) too harshly by his comments just moments after he's taken his first loss and worst beating of his professional life. Second, Ortiz's honest attitude is refreshing and a big part of his fan appeal. I mean, the usual postfight interview consists of the usual mishmash of "he's a great fighter -- take nothing away from him -- talk it over with my team" blah blah blah.

In the press conference, Ortiz said the he wanted a rematch and that he's not quitting, so I think he'll be back. I do expect him to take a smarter, boxing style into his future fights, particularly into a Maidana rematch.

Also, it's not as if Ortiz simply gave up at the first sign of trouble (as Robert Guerrero did a few months ago). He was knocked down, shaken up, battered, badly cut and hurt. He fought a war and lost to a guy who was just tougher on that night. I wasn't expecting much from this fight, and it turned out to be a hugely exciting one.

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket · Jun 29, 2009

QUOTE (BGrif21125 @ Jun 29 2009, 07:55 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2387614
I definitely appreciated his honesty. As you said, it sure beats the usual cliche-filled postfight interviews where a guy goes out of his way to say nothing.

But I don't know... Golden Boy has a lot riding on this guy (and maybe they rushed him as a result), and if I were them, I'd be a little concerned over the tone of some of his comments. There were a few points where he seemed to be openly wondering how much he liked boxing now that he'd faced a guy who was willing/able to take his shots and punch back. I'm not saying he's soft (he sure showed a ton of toughness during the fight), but he just didn't seem to be terribly bothered by the thought of losing. I'm not sure how that translates to someone becoming an elite fighter, which is what he's been projected as.

Granted, I could be reading too much into this. Kellerman seemed surprised by the comments though.

Yeah, either they rushed him or someone just underestimated Maidana. Or both (most likely).

No doubt Ortiz's post-fight comments and general demeanor were unusual and, to say the least, puzzling based on what we as boxing fans have come to expect. But he is very young and I think the next severaal months or year will tell what the future holds for Ortiz.

If he's matched "soft" in his next few fights, I don't think that does him much good (I'd give him one soft touch after the pounding he just took). But if he can get in there with another tough, quality opponent, go to war and win (or at the very least "go out on his shield," as boxers are so fond of saying), this debacle will be forgotten.

That's just the way boxing goes! Look at Vitali Klitschko. He was a walking joke after he quit against Chris Byrd (apparently in Europe, quitting as a result of an injury doesn't have nearly the stigma is does here). But that whole bad memory vanished after his toe-to-toe brawl with Lennox Lewis (sending Lewis into retirement!) and particularly after his genuinely anguished reaction when the fight was stopped due to a particularly gruesome cut. (Vitali's subsequent record of canceling fights to due to training injuries turned the tables against him again, but at least after that Lewis fight he was riding high).

Right now, Ortiz has left a giant question mark in his wake. Hopefully he'll heal up and Golden Boy can get him in there at least once, if not twice, by the end of the year. Then we'll really know what kind of potential this kid has.

EDIT - I'd also add that a fighter Ortiz's age -- 22 -- really should be fighting 5 or 6 times per year. This was only his second fight this year after just four last year (5 in 2007).

I think that's a structural problem with Golden Boy's business model. They are not in the prospect development business. They are in the star-making business. Yes, Ortiz is (or maybe WAS) a potential superstar. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't be developed, with frequent activity against a variety of challenging (but beatable) opponents. Hell, at 22, he probably should still be fighting on ESPN or SHoBox, not headlining HBO cards (even BAD) at the Staples Center. So yeah, that's "rushing" him, but I'm not sure Golden Boy knows how to do anything else. Either that, or they aren't willing to invest the money in bringing a fighter along, patiently awaiting the big paydays that will come down the road. De la Hoya would never admit it, but he and his company could really learn a lot from Bob Arum and Top Rank (who developed De La Hoya himself quite expertly) in that regard.

allaboutthesox · Jul 9, 2009

QUOTE (BGrif21125 @ Jul 8 2009, 11:08 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2406771
P.S. Just a reminder that Agbeko-Darchinyan is on Showtime this Saturday. Hopefully it's entertaining, since it's one of the only significant fights of what looks to be a long, boring boxing summer.

What sucks is to think at the beginning of the year how excited most of us were about the prospects of all the summer fights that would lead to end of the year mega fights. :lol:

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket · Jul 16, 2009

QUOTE (BGrif21125 @ Jul 16 2009, 07:42 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2425586
Not sure what to make of this one:

They have to sell this crappy fight somehow.

SeoulSoxFan · Jul 17, 2009

QUOTE (Gene Conleys Plane Ticket @ Jul 16 2009, 11:28 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2425785
They have to sell this crappy fight somehow.

No kidding. After the injuries and Gatti & Arguello's death we get this comedy.

Sille Skrub · Jul 17, 2009

QUOTE (Naehring11 @ Jun 26 2009, 03:58 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2383549
It would seem to raise the chances since the Cotto-Pacquiao fight is being worked on for 11/14.

If anyone sees confirmation on this fight, please post it.

I'm planning a bachelor party for my brother and would love to do it in Vegas on the weekend of a Pac fight.

SeoulSoxFan · Jul 17, 2009

No confirmation on Cotto-Pacman, but I did find this what can only be described as "odd" movie trailer with Pacquiao:

ElUno20 · Jul 17, 2009

Shane now saying he'd fight Pac at 140.

chester · Jul 17, 2009

Guillermo Rigondeaux will be making his second pro fight tonight on ESPN2 at 10pm est.

His first fight was a underwhelming because of the opponent and it being his debut, but I hope for more of a show tonight. Rigondeaux has Mayweather like speed but likes to go toe to toe making him a potentially very entertaining fighter.

edit: also fighting is Erislandy Lara another Cuban defector who has a lot of potential

chester · Jul 19, 2009

QUOTE (BGrif21125 @ Jul 18 2009, 05:45 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2427943
I'm interested to see how fast Rigondeaux and Gamboa are moved along over the next 12 months or so. These guys are much older than US prospects and have hundreds of amateur fights, so they should be moved along quickly. Fighting low-end stepping stone opponents is a waste of time for them.

Yeah it is too bad he has lost a few years, but he still has a few years of prime left in him. His two pro opponents have been a waste of time but necessary to get him in the door and by all accounts he wants to be moved along as fast as possible; He'll probably be looking for a title shot within a year of so.

Sille Skrub · Jul 20, 2009

QUOTE (Sille Skrub @ Jul 17 2009, 01:48 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2425886
If anyone sees confirmation on this fight, please post it.

I'm planning a bachelor party for my brother and would love to do it in Vegas on the weekend of a Pac fight.

Nevermind, just heard the news.

Pacquiao/Cotto is confirmed for 11/14.

Time to get to work.

Sons of Peter McNeeley- Boxing Thread

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