Should the Red Sox consider Jose Bautista?

jasvlm

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I understand that this will likely be an unpopular proposal, but if Bautista is willing to sign a 1 year deal, how bad could it be? I am fully aware that he'll cost the Red Sox their first round pick, and the money from the pool they'll have to sign players from the draft. I'm weighing that consideration against the likely improvement they could get from adding him to the roster for 2017 (and possibly 2018, if there were an option year tacked on). Bautista could play in the OF, at 1b, and in dire circumstances, fill in at 3b. He still features and elite bb rate, and has power that should play anywhere.
If the Red Sox were willing to do a 1 year, 20 mil deal with a club option for 2018 at another 20 mil, they could potentially add a middle of the order bat with little downside. If their "window" of focus is on the next 3 years, it would be hard to argue that they could add another player of more impact than Bautista, so DD may be willing to jump at the chance to sign him based on his market rate having plummeted.
I'm not 100% sold that I'd do this as a Red Sox supporter, but it at least merits discussion. If not, Happy Holidays, and may the stove always be hot in your home.
 

DeadlySplitter

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He's done in the OF. He would put us over the tax. One year deal to lose a draft pick is silly.

He's more washed up than EE.
 

Average Reds

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If you're going to lose a pick, you need to acquire a player for more than 1 or two years. (Unless you are the Mets and you just cannot pass up the life force that is Michael Cuddyer.)

Pass.
 

CreedBratton

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He's done in the OF. He would put us over the tax. One year deal to lose a draft pick is silly.

He's more washed up than EE.
Yeah EE really looked washed up last year

I'd take Bautista in a heartbeat on a one year deal if there wasn't a pick attached, but alas makes no sense.
 

johnnywayback

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We can save ourselves a lot of angst if we come to terms with the fact that Mitch Moreland is going to be our 1B and Hanley Ramirez is going to be our DH.

There is no room for another DH/1B/bad OF on the roster. If they can upgrade on Josh Rutledge as a RHH Sandoval platoon partner / insurance policy without giving up talent or going over the luxury tax threshold, great. Otherwise, the roster is set. No Napoli, no Trumbo, no Bautista.
 

Green Monster

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[QUOTE="johnnywayback....There is no room for another DH/1B/bad OF on the roster. If they can upgrade on Josh Rutledge as a RHH Sandoval platoon partner / insurance policy without giving up talent or going over the luxury tax threshold, great. Otherwise, the roster is set. No Napoli, no Trumbo, no Bautista.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like Trevor Plouffe to me..........3B/1B, RHH w/ occassional pop. Looks like he has even had ML innings at 2B/SS/OF, although not since 2012....should be able to get him and still leave some cap space for mid-season additons
 
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Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat

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He's done in the OF. He would put us over the tax. One year deal to lose a draft pick is silly.

He's more washed up than EE.
Being more washed up than a guy who isn't washed up at all isn't really very descriptive.

As to the topic at hand, it doesn't make any sense. Losing the pick/slot and going over the threshold for a declining Bautista to DH for a year...no.
 

Cesar Crespo

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If he still available in June, maybe. And unless Toronto signs him, him not signing until June is a possibility. Plus there is an outside chance there are guys like Pedro Alvarez and Chris Davis that have to accept minor league deals, however remote that chance.
 

simplicio

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If he still available in June, maybe. And unless Toronto signs him, him not signing until June is a possibility. Plus there is an outside chance there are guys like Pedro Alvarez and Chris Davis that have to accept minor league deals, however remote that chance.
Chris Davis just finished year 1 of a 7 year/$161 million contact. Maybe you're thinking Trumbo?

Absolute no in Bautista. He's old and he should be a DH and his numbers just jumped off a cliff.
 

Bags27

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You're darn right! Bautista at DH would be a monster in Fenway. He is clutch and after last year very determined. He keeps himself in great shape and has the edgy attitude that the Sox need. He was hurt last year and that caused his #s to fall a bit. Go for him - 2 years.
 

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I'd love Luis Valbuena, who happens to be a pretty solid fielder at 3B (and competent back-up at 2B or 1B) and has some pop -- but I'm guessing he's hopeful of a bigger role than the Red Sox would be able to carve out for him.
 
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mwonow

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Jose's a gamer. But he's past his best-by date, and not worth the first rounder + $MM + over the tax just doesn't add up for a guy who should leave the glove at home and hit .234.

I think he'd add to the 2017 Sox, but not in a cost-effective way
 

Mighty Joe Young

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Signing Joey Batts would be beyond stupid.
- they'd have to dump Moreland .. thus sending a terrible message to other prospective FAs.
- it would force Hanley back to 1B thus hurting the defense.
- it would cost them a 1st round pick plus the subsequent bonus money in a year where it's really important to start rebuilding the farm.
- It would put them back over the cap

All that to make Bautista the DH for a year (or two).

Swapping Bautista for Moreland is pretty marginal upgrade at best.

I think it's pretty likely he goes back to the Blue Jays. Although even that costs them the potential compensation pick if he signs elsewhere. Plus the 20 million it's going to take. He may not sign until May when he'll be free of the QO albatross.
 

PapaSox

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Again, I don't see where JB fits into the current lineup. He is a player w/o a position. If anything we could use a big 3B bat in case Panda does not work out. We have Hanley at DH and he can play 1B. We have Moreland at 1B (Gold Glove) who can DH. We have Young and Swihart who can DH and play the OF. Where does JB fit?
 

Plympton91

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Again, I don't see where JB fits into the current lineup. He is a player w/o a position. If anything we could use a big 3B bat in case Panda does not work out. We have Hanley at DH and he can play 1B. We have Moreland at 1B (Gold Glove) who can DH. We have Young and Swihart who can DH and play the OF. Where does JB fit?
Take a look at Bogaerts 2013-2014 batting lines. Now tell me again that Benintendi is a sure thing to be good in 2017.

This team replaced David Ortiz with Mitch Moreland and traded most of the small amount of production they got at 3B for a middle reliever (even if you don't think Shaw could repeat it, you can't just ignore that he had 2 great months and 1 good one). Pedroia is a year older and had another surgery, and played more games in 2016 than he had in years. Panda didn't play last year and was awful in 2015. Moreland hits like a SS but plays 1B. Leon, Bogaerts, and Bradley ended 2016 in horrible slumps. Vazquez is Kevin Cash level bad offensively so far.

The idea that this team has a big margin of error on offense is silly. Ideally, they need another middle of the order bat, failing that they need to find ways to limit the downside at 1B, 3B, and C (hopefully Farrell will get over Swihart's dropped pop up and put him back behind the plate).

But I agree giving up the pick for Batista, who is a DH coming off a bad year doesnt make sense. Napoli with no pick attached would be nice, and is a good defender at 1B. Valbuena would at least limit the downside at 1B/3B and on average replace what we got from Shaw last year.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Take a look at Bogaerts 2013-2014 batting lines. Now tell me again that Benintendi is a sure thing to be good in 2017.

This team replaced David Ortiz with Mitch Moreland and traded most of the small amount of production they got at 3B for a middle reliever (even if you don't think Shaw could repeat it, you can't just ignore that he had 2 great months and 1 good one). Pedroia is a year older and had another surgery, and played more games in 2016 than he had in years. Panda didn't play last year and was awful in 2015. Moreland hits like a SS but plays 1B. Leon, Bogaerts, and Bradley ended 2016 in horrible slumps. Vazquez is Kevin Cash level bad offensively so far.

The idea that this team has a big margin of error on offense is silly. Ideally, they need another middle of the order bat, failing that they need to find ways to limit the downside at 1B, 3B, and C (hopefully Farrell will get over Swihart's dropped pop up and put him back behind the plate).

But I agree giving up the pick for Batista, who is a DH coming off a bad year doesnt make sense. Napoli with no pick attached would be nice, and is a good defender at 1B. Valbuena would at least limit the downside at 1B/3B and on average replace what we got from Shaw last year.
Benintendi and Bogaerts aren't close to the same player and their minor league batting lines bear that out. Ignore those bb/k %'s though.
 

Bags27

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Take a look at Bogaerts 2013-2014 batting lines. Now tell me again that Benintendi is a sure thing to be good in 2017.

This team replaced David Ortiz with Mitch Moreland and traded most of the small amount of production they got at 3B for a middle reliever (even if you don't think Shaw could repeat it, you can't just ignore that he had 2 great months and 1 good one). Pedroia is a year older and had another surgery, and played more games in 2016 than he had in years. Panda didn't play last year and was awful in 2015. Moreland hits like a SS but plays 1B. Leon, Bogaerts, and Bradley ended 2016 in horrible slumps. Vazquez is Kevin Cash level bad offensively so far.

The idea that this team has a big margin of error on offense is silly. Ideally, they need another middle of the order bat, failing that they need to find ways to limit the downside at 1B, 3B, and C (hopefully Farrell will get over Swihart's dropped pop up and put him back behind the plate).

But I agree giving up the pick for Batista, who is a DH coming off a bad year doesnt make sense. Napoli with no pick attached would be nice, and is a good defender at 1B. Valbuena would at least limit the downside at 1B/3B and on average replace what we got from Shaw last year.
 

Bags27

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I agree that with Moreland essentially replacing Ortiz, the offense will be much worse. Plus, a leader-of-the-pack type is needed. Please don't say Pedroia, and all other candidates are too young. Joey Bats with something to prove would be perfect.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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I liked Valbuena's versatility in a bench/3Bback-up role, but his lefty bat doesn't complement Panda and Moreland. Napoli would be fine off the bench but otherwise, he'd get what role, exactly? Half time with Moreland at first? Why would he sign up for that?

A RHH 3Bman (Panda insurance/platoon) who can also play first better than Hanley (platoon with Moreland) would have a role on this team. Is that Plouffe?
 

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I agree that with Moreland essentially replacing Ortiz, the offense will be much worse. Plus, a leader-of-the-pack type is needed. Please don't say Pedroia, and all other candidates are too young. Joey Bats with something to prove would be perfect.
Can you tell us why Bautista coming here as a hired gun would be a better "leader-of-the-pack type" than Pedroia?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I liked Valbuena's versatility in a bench/3Bback-up role, but his lefty bat doesn't complement Panda and Moreland. Napoli would be fine off the bench but otherwise, he'd get what role, exactly? Half time with Moreland at first? Why would he sign up for that?

A RHH 3Bman (Panda insurance/platoon) who can also play first better than Hanley (platoon with Moreland) would have a role on this team. Is that Plouffe?
Why can't it be Josh Rutledge?

As far as I can tell, the biggest difference between Rutledge and Plouffe is Plouffe has shown a bit more pop (higher slugging)...and Plouffe has had full seasons as a big league starter. He's also 3 years older and, if he's paid approximately what he'd have gotten in arbitration had the Twins tendered him, much more expensive. Even if he takes a pay cut from that just to sign somewhere, he should still get better than the barely above league minimum Rutledge is due.

I guess I'm just failing to see the excitement about Plouffe or how he'd be enough better than Rutledge to be worth the extra expense.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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I'm not excited about Plouffe, just saying he'd fill an actual roster spot better and more cheaply than Bautista. But yes, that spot is currently open for Rutledge. I wouldn't be shocked to see another body brought in to compete for it, but it won't be someone costing $10m+ and a draft pick. Might not even be a guy with a major league deal.

I think they're mostly set at this point. They'll see what spring brings.
 

Bags27

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Can you tell us why Bautista coming here as a hired gun would be a better "leader-of-the-pack type" than Pedroia?
Just an opinion. Pedroia is a gritty leader type and he and Papi were a dynamic duo. Pedroia would benefit from help from a strong personality like Bautista, who would have a big chip on his shoulder, and a big desire to prove people wrong about being washed up. A hired gun, yes, but what's wrong with that?
 

Plympton91

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Benintendi and Bogaerts aren't close to the same player and their minor league batting lines bear that out. Ignore those bb/k %'s though.
"This time is Different!"

Maybe.

I liked Valbuena's versatility in a bench/3Bback-up role, but his lefty bat doesn't complement Panda and Moreland. Napoli would be fine off the bench but otherwise, he'd get what role, exactly? Half time with Moreland at first? Why would he sign up for that?

A RHH 3Bman (Panda insurance/platoon) who can also play first better than Hanley (platoon with Moreland) would have a role on this team. Is that Plouffe?
Looking for someone to complement Panda is the wrong way to think about it. Panda should be viewed as someone who is equivalent to a washed up veteran on a minor league contract hoping for one last good season. That they are essentially counting on him to be the starting 3B with only Brock Holt, who is needed in the utility role, as a safety net is asking for failure.

I'd bring in Valbuena as the starting 3B and if Panda forces his way into the lineup so much the better. But when last seen. Panda sucked. Pretending surgery on his non throwing shoulder and showing up in something that better resembles the shape of an athlete are going to magically reverse a steady decline following a lost season is fools gold.
 
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Minneapolis Millers

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Looking for someone to complement Panda is the wrong way to think about it. Panda should be viewed as someone who is equivalent to a washed up veteran on a minor league contract hoping for one last good season. That they are essentially counting on him to be the starting 3B with only Brock Holt, who is needed in the utility role, as a safety net is asking for failure.

I'd bring in Valbuena as the starting 3B and if Panda forces his way into the lineup so much the better. But when last seen. Panda sucked. Pretending surgery on his non throwing shoulder and showing up in something that better resembles the shape of an athlete are going to magically reverse a steady decline following a lost season is fools gold.
Pretending that they can discard a highly paid veteran and bring in another starter without regard to budget ignores the criteria under which DD is operating and the moves already made. Moreland was acquired to fill a specific role. Buchholz was traded for specific reasons.

They COULD take that savings - the budget space they just created to give them room for an in-season move- and blow it now to acquire a guy to replace Panda before we've seen what he has left, but that's not what DD said he's doing.

Of course, if they can sign Valbuena for dirt cheap, great. But I'm guessing some other team will pay more for him than the Sox would want to pay.
 

Plympton91

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Pretending that they can discard a highly paid veteran and bring in another starter without regard to budget ignores the criteria under which DD is operating and the moves already made. Moreland was acquired to fill a specific role. Buchholz was traded for specific reasons.

They COULD take that savings - the budget space they just created to give them room for an in-season move- and blow it now to acquire a guy to replace Panda before we've seen what he has left, but that's not what DD said he's doing.

Of course, if they can sign Valbuena for dirt cheap, great. But I'm guessing some other team will pay more for him than the Sox would want to pay.
I understand alll that, it just seems a bit schizophrenic to me. The acquisition of Kimbrell, Sale, Pomeranz, and Thornberg are all 'win it in the next two years' moves. To then turn around and put Moreland on first and throw all your 3B eggs in Panda's basket. Especially with catcher also a potential black hole on offense if Farrell won't play Swihart (and he's also coming off a bad injury that cost him 2/3rds of a season) there, just doesn't make any sense to me. If you're going to mortgage the farm, don't cheap out now. They're liable to end up in a 2002 or 2014 position, with a superb rotation and no offense, squandering the first of the three year window with Sale.
 

MikeM

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We can save ourselves a lot of angst if we come to terms with the fact that Mitch Moreland is going to be our 1B and Hanley Ramirez is going to be our DH.

There is no room for another DH/1B/bad OF on the roster. If they can upgrade on Josh Rutledge as a RHH Sandoval platoon partner / insurance policy without giving up talent or going over the luxury tax threshold, great. Otherwise, the roster is set. No Napoli, no Trumbo, no Bautista.

I've come to terms with it myself, but I also essentially agree with Plympton that this offense doesn't have a large enough margin of error on offense to really support a notion that we should already start printing our playoff tickets.

The fact DD has been adding a lot MI type depth leaves me guessing he currently has zero interest in a Plouffe type too. But not because and beyond paying lip service to the "penalty" our FO ultimately cares all that much whether or not we go a couple million over the LT. I think he's just mostly all in on Pablo as an everyday guy, and Plouffe would certainly push the "we might end up having to platoon Pablo" to a "we signed this guy to do just that".
 
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absintheofmalaise

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I agree. I don't care how many times that null hypothesis is accepted to indicate the absence of clutchness. I'd rather have Bautista up in a pressure situation than almost any other statistically-similar hitters.
Whoosh!

Why do you think JB is a better hitter than almost any similar hitter in a "clutch" situation? Please show your work. Just posting your opinion with no facts to back up your opinion is worthless.
 

E5 Yaz

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Whoosh!

Why do you think JB is a better hitter than almost any similar hitter in a "clutch" situation? Please show your work. Just posting your opinion with no facts to back up your opinion is worthless.
I'm still ruminating over "null hypothesis."
 

Bags27

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Whoosh!

Why do you think JB is a better hitter than almost any similar hitter in a "clutch" situation? Please show your work. Just posting your opinion with no facts to back up your opinion is worthless.
Wait 'til my grant application is accepted and I'll do the "work". What is this, a scientific journal?
 

Minneapolis Millers

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Yes, I can see that interpretation. But I think they decided that getting Sale was worth going even if it BOTH hurt the farm AND limited their options to upgrade the line-up. I think DD is relying on the kids to grow and shifting to a more pitching and defense oriented team. All within a budget framework.
 

PapaSox

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I don't feel the offensive is that weak that the Sox need to hire JB. There is plenty of offense in Betts, Pedroia, X, JBJ, Hanley with Mitch, Sandy, Panda, Swihart, Vaz, Holt & Benintendi adding some additional punch. They won't be #1 in offense but nicely placed around 5 or 6th. The rotation is better and the pen looks solid. Defense should be good also. They won't need to score 5 runs every game to win.

Now, that does not mean the offense will not collapse when it is needed. Nor, does that mean the pitching won't fall off the rails. It simply means adding Sale, Thorn and Mitch improves the team in a way different from Papi being in the line up.
 

shaggydog2000

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How much better do they need to be? They were 101 runs better than the next highest scoring team in the AL. Sure losing Papi will hurt, but does being the 2nd or 3rd best offensive team in the AL make it incredibly hard for them to win? I doubt it, and if the pitching doesn't turn to crap all of a sudden, they should be a much better overall team.
 

opes

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Wait 'til my grant application is accepted and I'll do the "work". What is this, a scientific journal?
Have you bothered to even look at his numbers, or are you seriously trolling? Just off the top, he hasn't created more runs per game since 2009, nor has his slugging been that low since then. Ergo, his ability to create runs with his power hasn't been at this low level since 2009. That is a sign of serious regression. There is little possibly he could
Based on his progression recover to his numbers of 2011 - 2015. Not to mention he can't respectively play any field position. There really is no stance you possibly could firmly stand on in this position.
 

TheoShmeo

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How much better do they need to be? They were 101 runs better than the next highest scoring team in the AL. Sure losing Papi will hurt, but does being the 2nd or 3rd best offensive team in the AL make it incredibly hard for them to win? I doubt it, and if the pitching doesn't turn to crap all of a sudden, they should be a much better overall team.
This resonates...at least on paper. I worry that removing Papi's production from the equation and replacing that as they have, or have not, will put pressure on the remaining guys beyond what the numbers themselves would suggest.
 

Rough Carrigan

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I might be Joey Bats' biggest booster on the board here but this would be dumb. Fenway's big right field requires a better than average right fielder. He's never been that and is only trending further away from it now. He's become too injury prone and his production is trending down. Please no.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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I might be Joey Bats' biggest booster on the board here but this would be dumb. Fenway's big right field requires a better than average right fielder. He's never been that and is only trending further away from it now. He's become too injury prone and his production is trending down. Please no.
I seriously doubt that anyone is suggesting the Sox should sign Bautista and put him in RF. Conceivably LF, if they decide Benintendi needs AAA time despite his showing last year, but certainly not right. Far more likely he'd be taking time away from Moreland at 1B/DH. I don't think even that is a good idea, given the draft pick and the other issues you note, but how good a RF he is these days seems beside the point.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I understand alll that, it just seems a bit schizophrenic to me. The acquisition of Kimbrell, Sale, Pomeranz, and Thornberg are all 'win it in the next two years' moves. To then turn around and put Moreland on first and throw all your 3B eggs in Panda's basket. Especially with catcher also a potential black hole on offense if Farrell won't play Swihart (and he's also coming off a bad injury that cost him 2/3rds of a season) there, just doesn't make any sense to me. If you're going to mortgage the farm, don't cheap out now. They're liable to end up in a 2002 or 2014 position, with a superb rotation and no offense, squandering the first of the three year window with Sale.
Maybe the organization is just really high on Devers. Even the biggest optimist couldn't see him up until after the ASB though. A Pablo injury puts Rutledge or Marco as our backup 3b. Devers isn't far behind. A right handed Travis Shaw would be a great fit for this team because our 1b depth isn't that great either.
 

JimD

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The acquisition of Kimbrell, Sale, Pomeranz, and Thornberg are all 'win it in the next two years' moves. To then turn around and put Moreland on first and throw all your 3B eggs in Panda's basket.
Those 'eggs' are already in Panda's basket, though, whether he plays or not. Might as well see if the guy can return to being a productive offensive player. If not, some of us like having the current budget flexibility to make an in-season move than to blow it now.
 

simplicio

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Maybe the organization is just really high on Devers. Even the biggest optimist couldn't see him up until after the ASB though. A Pablo injury puts Rutledge or Marco as our backup 3b. Devers isn't far behind. A right handed Travis Shaw would be a great fit for this team because our 1b depth isn't that great either.
Don't forget Sam Travis knocking on the 1b door either. The team has what it needs for now and the pipeline looks good for next year and beyond. If the offense turns out to be completely anemic that's a problem to solve during the season and sure, go ahead and sign a high slugging/low average bat to a ml deal if there's one to be had, but don't give up assets or picks, create an unnecessary roster crunch and blow back through the salary cap just for an extra bit of a bat if that's not entirely crucial to the success of the team.