Red Sox Select LHP Jason Groome 12th Overall

Marbleheader

Dope
Dope
Sep 27, 2004
11,633


Jason Groome
LHP
6'6", 180
Barnegat HS, NJ

Solid mechanics. Fastball in 95-96 MPH range. 75 MPH curve with 1-to-7 action. Turns 18 in August. Changed HS to IMG Academy in FL then came back to NJ. Ruled ineligible transfer and lost 30 days. Originally committed to Vanderbilt and changed to Chipola College in FL. Agent Jeff Randazzo reportedly seeking $4 million. Reports there were "issues" caused him to slide.

 

alwyn96

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 24, 2005
1,351
Listed at #1 overall in at least one of BA's apparently many draft rankings

http://www.baseballamerica.com/college/2016-top-100-draft-prospects-3/#Izrtz16k81wBpwpX.97

Then there’s Groome, whose camp has floated some very big signability numbers (“top three money”) amid a large number of rumors about his makeup. Now some of these rumors may be spread by teams hoping Groome will fall, but the rumors which started last summer have persisted. Asked what the craziest rumor he’d heard about Groome, one scout replied simply, “That he was dead.” It’s been that kind of spring.

Groome no longer is committed to Vanderbilt, unlike Garrett, who is, and is now headed to Chipola (Fla.) JC. He cancelled a meeting with Oakland team president Billy Beane and now appears to be in free-fall in the first round, though other teams could take a player ranked No. 3 on the #BA500 and dare him to go to junior college.
It would be hilarious if Dombrowski actually started those rumors, although that doesn't really seem like his M.O.
 
Last edited:

oumbi

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 15, 2006
4,047
From over on another thread here, the issues seem to be a combination of signability (he reportedly will ask for $4,000,000) and maturity. The latter is not tied to any specific behavior. (No evidence yet that he is Denny II) rather, Groome is only 17 (turns 18 in the fall) and therefore no one knows what sort of human being he will turn into.

The above is just summarizing points from others.
 

AlNipper49

Huge Member
Dope
Apr 3, 2001
44,360
Mtigawi
From over on another thread here, the issues seem to be a combination of signability (he reportedly will ask for $4,000,000) and maturity. The latter is not tied to any specific behavior. (No evidence yet that he is Denny II) rather, Groome is only 17 (turns 18 in the fall) and therefore no one knows what sort of human being he will turn into.

The above is just summarizing points from others.
If it's really bullshit then you could have him and Espinoza as our two best pitchers in the minors in 12 months. How insane would that be? Two dudes who can't buy beer for another three years
 

Snodgrass'Muff

oppresses WARmongers
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2008
27,644
Roanoke, VA
I wouldn't be surprised if it was a reaction to his suspension, which had nothing to do with maturity. It was due to a technical rule about him transferring back to his home town high school. People see suspension, they assume he did something stupid and attribute immaturity to him.

I mean, he's 17, so of course he's immature, but there doesn't seem to be any real evidence that he's immature for his age.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
52,022
I wouldn't be surprised if it was a reaction to his suspension, which had nothing to do with maturity. It was due to a technical rule about him transferring back to his home town high school. People see suspension, they assume he did something stupid and attribute immaturity to him.
The rumors started last summer, suspension was early this season.

And even if the timing was correct, I doubt think teams would hear about a suspension and just assume it was the kid's fault without checking. That would be a shocking lack of due diligence.
 

alwyn96

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 24, 2005
1,351
My guess about the "make-up" rumors is that he chose to transfer away from a high-level private athletic high school situation that is probably not too far from a rookie-league baseball situation. If he didn't like a high school that sounds like it was pretty close to a pro situation, he might not be motivated by an actual pro situation. It's not crazy, but it seems thin to me.

It hadn't even occurred to me that rumors might be planted about players in order to get them to drop in the draft. Damn.
 

AlNipper49

Huge Member
Dope
Apr 3, 2001
44,360
Mtigawi
My guess about the "make-up" rumors is that he chose to transfer away from a high-level private athletic high school situation that is probably not too far from a rookie-league baseball situation. If he didn't like a high school that sounds like it was pretty close to a pro situation, he might not be motivated by an actual pro situation. It's not crazy, but it seems thin to me.

It hadn't even occurred to me that rumors might be planted about players in order to get them to drop in the draft. Damn.
I don't think if you have say, the 5th pick in the draft that you pass on a dude who is a potential top of the rotation lefty without some meat on those rumor bones
 

alwyn96

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 24, 2005
1,351
I don't think if you have say, the 5th pick in the draft that you pass on a dude who is a potential top of the rotation lefty without some meat on those rumor bones
There's also the signability issues, which may be a bigger factor than make-up. But yeah, you never know. Especially with 17 year olds, who are.....young. Fingers crossed.
 
Last edited:

Snodgrass'Muff

oppresses WARmongers
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2008
27,644
Roanoke, VA
There's also the signability issues, which may be a bigger factor than make-up. But yeah, you never know. Especially with 17 year olds, who are.....young. Fingers crossed.
His agent was asking for 4 million. Slot doesn't get down under 4 million until the 7th pick. His price tag may explain why the handful of teams ahead of the Sox didn't grab him, but it doesn't explain why he dropped from the top of the draft through the first 7 or 8 picks. I don't buy into the makeup issues since there is nothing specific being mentioned by anyone who points to it, but something was definitely pushing his draft stock down.

It could be that he left a more challenging situation to go back to his easier high school, as you suggested. Still seems a long way to fall for something like that, though.

Edit: And I'm not complaining that he fell. It's great that the Sox got a chance to grab him.
 

FanSinceBoggs

seantwo
SoSH Member
Jan 12, 2009
937
New York
Awesome pick. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think his slot (12th pick) is worth around 3.2 million. The Red Sox can go 5% over their total spending allotment, which would give them an extra 400,000. They give that 400,000 to Groome and have now offered him 3.6 to sign. That will hopefully get it done. If not, they can nickel-and-dime a few picks and free up another 400,000 to get it to 4 million. It sounds like Groome grew up rooting for the Red Sox, and is excited to join the organization, and so hopefully Groome will sign without forcing the organization to give less money to other draftees.
 

uncannymanny

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 12, 2007
8,936
My guess about the "make-up" rumors is that he chose to transfer away from a high-level private athletic high school situation that is probably not too far from a rookie-league baseball situation. If he didn't like a high school that sounds like it was pretty close to a pro situation, he might not be motivated by an actual pro situation. It's not crazy, but it seems thin to me.

It hadn't even occurred to me that rumors might be planted about players in order to get them to drop in the draft. Damn.
I think this is a good take. IMG is a very serious sports-first "high school". I did some work with IMG+Gatorade. It seems to be run like a pro program (which is why our testing ground for pros was IMG), but with school too.

That perception that he's not a hard enough worker or whatever because he left is somewhat understandable if you don't follow up on it. Seems like they would dig into the why. How much do they scout these kids in that way? They can't just rely on rumors for a top 5-ish pick.

I could also easily see that a relatively mature 17 year old could just not want to be in Florida away from his family and friends. I skipped going to Maccu Piccu for the first time to fly home and be with my gf in high school...in winter. Because I was a 17 year old idiot.

He's a Red Sox fan (loved watching Pedro and Manny!) and seems ecstatic to have been picked by them. I don't think there's going to be any problem signing him for the Boston Red Sox. This might not have been the case for other teams with the bonus demands and the college commitments. He was originally committed to Vandy -- the later commitment to the FL college really seems like an IMG guided thing. Also wouldn't be surprised if he felt pushed around and that was the reason for leaving.

If this kid works hard, this pick seems like as slam of a dunk as I've seen them make.
 

Bigpupp

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 8, 2008
2,317
New Mexico
Awesome pick. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think his slot (12th pick) is worth around 3.2 million. The Red Sox can go 5% over their total spending allotment, which would give them an extra 400,000. They give that 400,000 to Groome and have now offered him 3.6 to sign. That will hopefully get it done. If not, they can nickel-and-dime a few picks and free up another 400,000 to get it to 4 million. It sounds like Groome grew up rooting for the Red Sox, and is excited to join the organization, and so hopefully Groome will sign without forcing the organization to give less money to other draftees.
All the slot values are listed by Jim Callis here. The 12th pick is worth $3,192,800. With 5% that takes the pick value to $3,352,440.
 

chrisfont9

Member
SoSH Member
I wouldn't be surprised if it was a reaction to his suspension, which had nothing to do with maturity. It was due to a technical rule about him transferring back to his home town high school. People see suspension, they assume he did something stupid and attribute immaturity to him.

I mean, he's 17, so of course he's immature, but there doesn't seem to be any real evidence that he's immature for his age.
Well, it comes from MLB personnel murmuring about "makeup." So it's all a bit cloaked in secrecy, since nobody divulged any details, and there's a decent chance it's absolutely nothing. But at least some people believe something about him that made them hold off. The speculation above about not working hard or something seems as plausible as anything else. It also seems like something not to worry about.
 

uncannymanny

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 12, 2007
8,936
Wouldn't he have been five years old during in Pedro's last season? At least Manny hung around until he was right or nine.
Yeah I don't know about Pedro, but his family is all Yankees fans, so the 03/04 ALCS would've probably been a big deal in his household. I was 8 in '86 and that season hooked me on the Sox. I'd already been "into" baseball for a few years at least.
 

uncannymanny

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 12, 2007
8,936
So how did a kid who grew up in Yankees country become a Red Sox fan?

"I always liked Pedro Martinez and Manny Ramirez," said Groome. "I always liked Fenway Park. Everyone in my family is a Yankees fan. I always tended to like the Red Sox fans a little bit better. I've just taken them as my best team. Dustin Pedroia is my favorite player just because of his work ethic, and David Price, who I like to model myself after, as well."
http://m.mlb.com/news/article/183099426/red-sox-draft-jason-groome-with-12th-pick
 

SydneySox

A dash of cool to add the heat
SoSH Member
Sep 19, 2005
15,605
The Eastern Suburbs
If a kid from Maine said his favourite team was the Yankees because his family were all Sox fans and he liked Yankee fans better, I think many would care less or ridicule the 'favourite team' story.

I hope he succeeds and does it for us. But I give zero shits about his favourite team, especially when I think his reasons make him seem like a wanker.
 

alwyn96

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 24, 2005
1,351
What do folks think of this analysis?

I don't know a ton, but it seemed pretty great to me. As a fellow LHP (who had ridiculously bad mechanics, so take this for what it's worth, which is nothing), I think Groome's stiff lead leg is probably something to work on. His stride length is great, but I don't think he'll make it to MLB stopping his momentum around his lead leg that way. As an older guy it hurts my knees to see him land and put so much force into it like that, but he's young and it's fine for now. Plenty of time to fix that. Upper body looks great. I wish I had that kind of shoulder/scapular flexibility.

Pitch-to-pitch consistency in delivery is something that doesn't get talked about on forums much and is something I could never master, but is super important. That's just a common thing in young pitchers and something that'll just take a ton of repetition to either figure out or not. Being able to repeat your delivery the same way every time helps hugely with control and command, and it can take a while to get the muscle/neurological memory to be able to repeat a delivery. Having a bunch of unintentional variation in delivery is practically the definition of "raw." Not having seen him throw more than a few game pitches it's impossible for me to tell how well he can repeat his delivery, but apparently his stuff is great, and he's only 17. Plus he's huge, which doesn't hurt. He's got a lot of work ahead, but he's got some great stuff going for him.
 
Last edited:

threecy

Cosbologist
SoSH Member
Sep 1, 2006
1,587
Tamworth, NH
I don't think if you have say, the 5th pick in the draft that you pass on a dude who is a potential top of the rotation lefty without some meat on those rumor bones
Yes, as well as the concern that a check for $4 million could magnify the alleged issues.
 

smastroyin

simpering whimperer
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2002
20,684
With #12, I think this is a really good pick. I am worried about the bonus and what that means for the rest of the draft but you need to take a few swings when you get the chance. That said, of course he has a very high flameout risk by nature of being a HS P and by the fact that his biggest negative is command. I hope in two years we aren't arguing about whether he's a prospect anymore. It doesn't make it a bad choice though. In comparison to Ball (I think this discussion was in the other thread) Groome is a better prospect who has pitched more and has more developed stuff and of course drafting 12 instead of 7 is a difference, even if it is small (or you believe the depth of this draft makes the #12 equivalent to the 2013 #7).
 
Last edited:

JimD

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2001
8,606
Given that even first-round selections in the MLB draft are a massive crapshoot, this is an awesome pick.
 

canderson

Mr. Brightside
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
38,490
Harrisburg, Pa.
This "maturity" talk is frustrating. We have no proof of the kid doing anything wrong (I mean he's 17 of course he's immature and probably is an asshole because he's better than anyone else at what he does) yet the Cardinals select a convicted PED abuser and aside from freaking Herald Reynolds no one says anything.
 

TheoShmeo

Skrub's sympathy case
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
12,890
Boston, NY
If a kid from Maine said his favourite team was the Yankees because his family were all Sox fans and he liked Yankee fans better, I think many would care less or ridicule the 'favourite team' story.

I hope he succeeds and does it for us. But I give zero shits about his favourite team, especially when I think his reasons make him seem like a wanker.
Being able to sign him is an issue. If being a Sox fan contributes in any way, even at the extreme margin, to making him easier to sign, it's a good thing.
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
29,068
This "maturity" talk is frustrating. We have no proof of the kid doing anything wrong (I mean he's 17 of course he's immature and probably is an asshole because he's better than anyone else at what he does) yet the Cardinals select a convicted PED abuser and aside from freaking Herald Reynolds no one says anything.

Baseball is loaded with petty idiots who will say anything. The baseball press is loaded with petty idiots who will write anything. I think the best course is to make believe that no one ever said anything about maturity, because the reporting on this issue is just as likely to be as accurate as no one ever having said it. It never ceases to amaze me why otherwise intelligent people (the ones that post here) regard *anything* like that that isn't backed up with even one fact as anything other than nothing.
 

ArttyG12

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
100
Baseball is loaded with petty idiots who will say anything. The baseball press is loaded with petty idiots who will write anything. I think the best course is to make believe that no one ever said anything about maturity, because the reporting on this issue is just as likely to be as accurate as no one ever having said it. It never ceases to amaze me why otherwise intelligent people (the ones that post here) regard *anything* like that that isn't backed up with even one fact as anything other than nothing.
They're probably not giving specifics what causes the maturity concerns because he's a kid in high school, but pretending guys like Law and Callis are just making it up is crazy. A guy who is generally considered one of the top two picks falls to twelve, and every reporter says there's a maturity concern that caused him to fall...pretending there's not something there seems like wishful thinking. Hopefully, whatever the issue is, it was a one time thing or stops being a problem as he matures.
 

CoRP

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2007
9,457
The Epicenter
Wouldn't he have been five years old during in Pedro's last season? At least Manny hung around until he was eight or nine.
Six. My kid is the same age (and a pitcher) and is a huge Pedro fan but you're right, he was too young to really appreciate him. Manny was his real favorite. He remembers '07 much better than '04.
 

RG33

Certain Class of Poster
SoSH Member
Nov 28, 2005
7,010
CA
They're probably not giving specifics what causes the maturity concerns because he's a kid in high school, but pretending guys like Law and Callis are just making it up is crazy. A guy who is generally considered one of the top two picks falls to twelve, and every reporter says there's a maturity concern that caused him to fall...pretending there's not something there seems like wishful thinking. Hopefully, whatever the issue is, it was a one time thing or stops being a problem as he matures.
I agree with this. It seems like pretending there is not something there based on no facts is also a SoSh trait as well. I am firmly in the camp of "who cares" though, you take the risk at #12 on a top talent like this and hope the kid matures and becomes a major leaguer.
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Staff member
Dope
I'll be the wet blanket -- I don't like the pick. Hopefully, DD won't get many chances to make a top-15 pick; I don't like the idea of picking a HS pitcher with makeup questions, and likely going significantly over slot to sign him. By far the most likely outcome is that Groome amounts to nothing, and I assume we passed on the best available player with a few of our later picks to squirrel away enough money to meet Groome's demands.

Or, maybe DD intends to play hardball with Groome and is prepared to take the comp pick and move on if Groome won't sign for roughly 10% over slot. Remind me -- what kind of compensation would we get if Groome doesn't sign? If it amounts to little more than rolling over the pick to next year, that might not be a terrible outcome if DD wasn't enamored of the other options (particularly the available college pitchers).
 

Bowlerman9

bitchslapped by Keith Law
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 1, 2003
5,221
Or, maybe DD intends to play hardball with Groome and is prepared to take the comp pick and move on if Groome won't sign for roughly 10% over slot. Remind me -- what kind of compensation would we get if Groome doesn't sign? If it amounts to little more than rolling over the pick to next year, that might not be a terrible outcome if DD wasn't enamored of the other options (particularly the available college pitchers).
13th pick next year if he fails to sign.
 

pjheff

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2003
1,194
They're probably not giving specifics what causes the maturity concerns because he's a kid in high school, but pretending guys like Law and Callis are just making it up is crazy. A guy who is generally considered one of the top two picks falls to twelve, and every reporter says there's a maturity concern that caused him to fall...pretending there's not something there seems like wishful thinking. Hopefully, whatever the issue is, it was a one time thing or stops being a problem as he matures.
I agree. If we're engaging in speculation, a kid who went away to school for his junior year and then brought back for his senior year sounds like a potential party problem.

"All the while, his stock was slipping.

By midsummer, Vanderbilt was no longer interested in having Groome attend, according to a source familiar with the situation. It wasn’t because of his talent, but a bigger issue.

Three days before the draft, Groome announced he was no longer planning on attending Vanderbilt and instead pledged his commitment to Chipola College, a junior college in Florida.

Questions about Groome’s makeup have not gone away. He’s reputed in the industry as someone who likes to have fun, perhaps too much fun at times."

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/red_sox/2016/06/questions_come_with_red_sox_top_pick_jason_groome
 

Norm loves Vera

Joe wants Trump to burn
SoSH Member
Dec 25, 2003
5,086
Peace Dale, RI
After spending sometime on google looking for info on Groome, it looks like he could be a steal. I would think if there was something more with Groome leaving IMG, I would think Ray Fagnant would have gotten wind of it, as it seems the Red Sox did select IMG alum last year Logan Allen.

I will take the word of his Summer League Manager the last two years, Tom Rizzo, who is an ex MLB himself, who thinks very highly of Groome:

""Personally, he's made to be a professional player," Rizzo said. "Myself, I was kind of that way. I wasn't interested in going to school. To me, he's a pro-type kind of guy. He's very strong mentally and he has some swagger. He's humble at the same time. He isn't real arrogant. He is very confident in himself. I believe it will transfer to professional baseball very quickly."
http://www.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/ryan-hannable/2016/06/10/how-red-sox-first-round-pick-jason-groome-al
 

smastroyin

simpering whimperer
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2002
20,684
It definitely a high risk pick even if there weren't maturity issues whatever they may be. But I think he was so much BPA that I don't know if it tells us much about the team's propensity. As for covering the slot I think their second round pick (see my thread) should make up most of the difference.
 

PaulinMyrBch

Don't touch his dog food
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 10, 2003
8,316
MYRTLE BEACH!!!!
Signing him shouldn't be too difficult a task. Grab some college seniors with zero leverage in the 6th - 10th round range and free up the $$ you'll need to go over Groome's slot. They may have a bit already freed up with the pick at 52.
 

smastroyin

simpering whimperer
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2002
20,684
I do understand mauf's point in that you don't want to make it be a one player draft by going so far over slot, especially when they can't do much internationally either. But, I think it is worth trying to swing for the fences for a year. Remember of course that most other, safer picks also fail miserably.

That said, I should point out that the two best players the Sox have drafted in the last 20 years have come out of the second round (Pedroia and Lester). Of course we all hope the 2011 draft class changes that fact.
 
Last edited:

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
29,068
.

Questions about Groome’s makeup have not gone away. He’s reputed in the industry as someone who likes to have fun, perhaps too much fun at times."
He's 18 fucking years old. I wonder what my scouting report looked like at 18. "Lawyer?!!!! Bwhahahahahaha. Prison lawyer, maybe."
 

burstnbloom

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 12, 2005
2,720
There is too much smoke for there not to be fire on the "make-up" issue. John Manuel on the broadcast said he talked to a scouting director who had the largest dossier on Groome as he had on any other player in the draft. I think there is probably something there and it might be unflattering. I would guess the lack of specific information leaked is the fact that the kid is still a minor and that is iffy ground that I wouldn't want to step on. That said, I couldn't care less. Those issues are why the Red Sox were able to grab the most talented prep arm in the draft. Without them, he goes in the top three. A high school arm is tremendously risky either way, but usually the risk is because the kids mechanics need tweaking or you need to project his curve or change. This kid has all the physical tools at a tremendously young age. If they can help a 17 year old mature, this could be a huge boon to the organization. If not, well, high school kids are like throwing darts in the dark.
 

smastroyin

simpering whimperer
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2002
20,684
He's 18 fucking years old. I wonder what my scouting report looked like at 18. "Lawyer?!!!! Bwhahahahahaha. Prison lawyer, maybe."
You have your whole life to get it together.

If you want to make it in baseball you have to take your craft seriously from the jump. Yes, you get a second and third chance, but the third chance is usually with a second team (meaning that the risk the Red Sox are taking doesn't pay off if he finally makes it with another team - see Josh Hamilton, the Rays got $50K in the rule 5 draft to show for Hamilton). And frankly, guys who putz away their first couple years of development don't typically make anything of themselves. So it adds significant risk. We can hope the Red Sox can help him out. But, you know, there isn't a lot of evidence they have magic powers. Look at Jon Denney, look at Michael Kopech. I think writing it off as just being a kid is tremendously naive, and if that was all it was he would have been drafted in the top 7.

Just to re-iterate, I think it was a good pick. Just saying that you can't completely write off these things as "he's 17!" unless you're Stevie Nicks.
 
Last edited:

simplicio

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 11, 2012
3,551
I'll be the wet blanket -- I don't like the pick. Hopefully, DD won't get many chances to make a top-15 pick; I don't like the idea of picking a HS pitcher with makeup questions, and likely going significantly over slot to sign him. By far the most likely outcome is that Groome amounts to nothing, and I assume we passed on the best available player with a few of our later picks to squirrel away enough money to meet Groome's demands.

Or, maybe DD intends to play hardball with Groome and is prepared to take the comp pick and move on if Groome won't sign for roughly 10% over slot. Remind me -- what kind of compensation would we get if Groome doesn't sign? If it amounts to little more than rolling over the pick to next year, that might not be a terrible outcome if DD wasn't enamored of the other options (particularly the available college pitchers).
Isn't the most likely outcome of any pick that it amounts to nothing, especially outside of the early first round? If the chance of failure is inherent in every pick, why would you pass on a potential ace for the chance to sign a slightly more robust set of guys that will probably never sniff more than a cup of coffee?