Psssssssst 2022

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Staff member
Dope
Again, these are people, not video game characters.
I get why you responded as you did to NoX, but I’m not sure which way this cuts.

If Kershaw was focused on team and individual goals for the season and didn’t want to put those at risk with an extended April outing, then pulling him was 100% the right decision.

If Kershaw wanted to go for the perfect game, however, I’m not sure the manager should honor that wish. The manager has to manage real individuals, obviously, but he’s ultimately accountable for delivering team goals. Those goals wouldn’t be advanced in any material way by letting Kershaw chase an individual accomplishment in an early-season start.
 

NoXInNixon

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Mar 24, 2008
4,951
Again, these are people, not video game characters.
And they're people who have chosen to get paid millions of dollars to play a game because it entertains millions of fans, knowing that there's a risk of devastating injury every time they put on a uniform. What's your point?
 

NoXInNixon

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SoSH Member
Mar 24, 2008
4,951
Same here. I skipped King Felix and picked the 2nd and 3rd most recent guys to throw perfectos. If someone had given me a list of those two names and a random other started from 10 years ago I wouldn't have guessed right.
You're not a fan of those teams. I bet you can name every Red Sox no-no since the time you became a fan.
 

Lose Remerswaal

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
You're not a fan of those teams. I bet you can name every Red Sox no-no since the time you became a fan.
I can conjure them up. The 4 World Series Championships and the 3 WS losses I have seen are permanently in the front of my brain. Like I said before, Hideo Nomo's first No No for the Sox in my fandom isn't 1% as memorable as 2004 was. Thank goodness Pedro didn't get hurt trying to get a no hitter in the first week of the season and miss 3 months.
 

Gdiguy

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Jul 15, 2005
5,319
San Diego, CA
(maybe a mod should split this discussion into a separate thread, because I think it's an interesting discussion but probably detracting from the point of this thread to call people out to in-progress no-hitters)

You all are a bit spoiled though, because the Red Sox have actually been good for the past couple decades

Like I'll put it a different way - if you have a random Mets game in mid August and they're sub 500 and have no clear path to contention (not exactly a rare occurrence over the past 2 decades), why should I go watch? For me a huge fraction of that is simply that on any random night I might see something cool, whether it's a no-hitter, a great diving catch (also a huge injury risk), etc - I'm certainly not going with the expectation that they need to save bullets for the postseason

The Kershaw argument is a red herring here since between his history and the season timing I don't think anyone here is really arguing that he should've been left in. I think we're more saying that it's a shame that because of those very reasonable decisions, we're losing part of what makes baseball so enjoyable (to at least some of us)

I mean, the very existence and persistence of this thread kind of proves the point - no-hitters are interesting enough that basically every year we've had a thread that points out when they get to the 7th or 8th inning, so people who happen to be around can throw MLB.tv on and watch the end. If it's just '3 pitchers have combined to no-hit the Marlins through 7' every time, I dunno, to me it's lost something

Also, while flags fly forever, so do individual achievements - I mean nothing about Armando Galarraga's stats page says anything more than 'mid-rotation starter that lasted a few years in MLB', what percent of baseball fans would remember him today outside of his 'perfect game'?
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/galarar01.shtml
 

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
OK, so some folks here are taking the position that Kershaw should have been allowed continue his pursuit of a perfect game, their argument citing the historical importance of such an achievement. These rarities are so precious that we've only witnessed 23 of them in the games history. JUST 23 of them, exclusive club, small number, yet I'm willing to bet that most of this membership would struggle to name half of them with no prior research. I'm also willing to bet that the one perfecto that makes everyone's list is Don Larsen's World Series gem. THAT'S memorable, THAT's historic. Few people outside of a specific team's fan base gives a rat's ass about the rest of these "historic" moment's. IMO the idea of Dodgers sending Kershaw back out there in a meaningless game, on a cold April day in Minnesota, in his first start of the season after sustaining a serious arm injury last year would be short sighted and irresponsible.
 

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
Also, while flags fly forever, so do individual achievements - I mean nothing about Armando Galarraga's stats page says anything more than 'mid-rotation starter that lasted a few years in MLB', what percent of baseball fans would remember him today outside of his 'perfect game'?
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/galarar01.shtml
I think few outside of Detroit remember that game if it was in fact a perfect game. Galarraga is remembered largely because of the controversy surrounding his game. Be honest and tell me that you fondly remember Philip Humber's dandy just two years later. I've been more than a casual fan of the game for over fifty years and not only don't I remember Humber's perfect game, I don't remember Humber.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
17,497
Teams have very good reason to protect these incredibly important and expensive assets. But we all know as fans, it would be pretty awesome to be there in the stands and watch a perfect game being thrown by one of the game's best pitchers.

I do wonder if the Dodgers would have let Kershaw try it in, say, late June, once his arm has been fully acclimated to the regular season workload. June 28, say, and the team is up 4-0, and after seven, Kershaw has thrown 80 pitches. Would Roberts be more likely to let him try? Probably. But in today's game, even that is questionable, which shows you how different the game is. Because back in "the day" (not that long ago actually), a pitcher at 80 pitches going for a perfect game would absolutely, 100% be starting the 8th inning, no questions asked.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Jan 23, 2009
16,667
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Teams have very good reason to protect these incredibly important and expensive assets. But we all know as fans, it would be pretty awesome to be there in the stands and watch a perfect game being thrown by one of the game's best pitchers.

I do wonder if the Dodgers would have let Kershaw try it in, say, late June, once his arm has been fully acclimated to the regular season workload. June 28, say, and the team is up 4-0, and after seven, Kershaw has thrown 80 pitches. Would Roberts be more likely to let him try? Probably. But in today's game, even that is questionable, which shows you how different the game is. Because back in "the day" (not that long ago actually), a pitcher at 80 pitches going for a perfect game would absolutely, 100% be starting the 8th inning, no questions asked.
History actually says maybe not. Roberts pulled Rich Hill from a perfect game after 7 innings and 89 pitches in September 2016. While Hill is certainly fragile, and he had missed some time a few weeks earlier, his season high pitch count that year was 112 so it's not like he was entering uncharted territory. He was also a trade deadline rental at the time so it's not as though the Dodgers had a long term investment in him. But they were in a race to win the division and were scraping to keep a healthy rotation (the immortal Jose De Leon and Brett Anderson made September starts for them), so Roberts erred on the side of caution.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Dope
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
60,913
Teams have very good reason to protect these incredibly important and expensive assets. But we all know as fans, it would be pretty awesome to be there in the stands and watch a perfect game being thrown by one of the game's best pitchers.
For me, perfect games/no-hitters are mostly exciting because they get other people excited, they're not always the very best pitched games (meaning other starts can be more dominant even if they give up a few hits) and if I'm actually at a game, I'd generally prefer to see some hitting. The best game by far I ever saw in person was a pitcher's duel, Gooden vs Ryan in game 5 of the 1986 NLCS, but that was because both pitchers were dominating but much more because so much was at stake (a must-win game for the Mets at 2-2 in the series with the unhittable Mike Scott looming again in game 7). For a game in April, I'd be very happy going home with the knowledge that I had just seen the best seven inning start by game score in MLB history (which Kershaw's was).
 
Jul 27, 2021
66
(maybe a mod should split this discussion into a separate thread, because I think it's an interesting discussion but probably detracting from the point of this thread to call people out to in-progress no-hitters)

You all are a bit spoiled though, because the Red Sox have actually been good for the past couple decades

Like I'll put it a different way - if you have a random Mets game in mid August and they're sub 500 and have no clear path to contention (not exactly a rare occurrence over the past 2 decades), why should I go watch? For me a huge fraction of that is simply that on any random night I might see something cool, whether it's a no-hitter, a great diving catch (also a huge injury risk), etc - I'm certainly not going with the expectation that they need to save bullets for the postseason

The Kershaw argument is a red herring here since between his history and the season timing I don't think anyone here is really arguing that he should've been left in. I think we're more saying that it's a shame that because of those very reasonable decisions, we're losing part of what makes baseball so enjoyable (to at least some of us)

I mean, the very existence and persistence of this thread kind of proves the point - no-hitters are interesting enough that basically every year we've had a thread that points out when they get to the 7th or 8th inning, so people who happen to be around can throw MLB.tv on and watch the end. If it's just '3 pitchers have combined to no-hit the Marlins through 7' every time, I dunno, to me it's lost something

Also, while flags fly forever, so do individual achievements - I mean nothing about Armando Galarraga's stats page says anything more than 'mid-rotation starter that lasted a few years in MLB', what percent of baseball fans would remember him today outside of his 'perfect game'?
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/galarar01.shtml
Speaking of which. Check this out...

16 members of a Monmouth University “Law and Society” course and their professor, retired New Jersey Superior Court judge Lawrence Jones, have submitted an 82-page document to current MLB commissioner Rob Manfred that makes a case for Galarraga’s addition to the list of perfect games.

https://sports.yahoo.com/monmouth-university-law-class-tries-112924413.html
 

Tokyo Sox

Baka Gaijin
Lifetime Member
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Feb 16, 2006
5,362
There
What a day for him. His day on the mound is over but still a chance to build on the solid day at the plate. So much fun to watch.
 

bsj

Renegade Crazed Genius
SoSH Member
Dec 6, 2003
21,938
Central NJ SoSH Chapter
Perez is at 63 pitches. His pitch totals this year are 68, 67, 87.

Unless he gets some very quick innings, I'd say that there is less than a 5% chance we even see the game finished.
 

cromulence

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 25, 2009
6,170
Yeah, you guys should watch Nestor pitch sometime - if you can ignore the laundry, he's a lot of fun to watch. Aaron Small, he is not. He doesn't throw hard, but he's got good stuff and plenty of deception.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Dope
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
60,913
Those guys have said it already but Aaron Small was 33 and had been a journeyman for 10 years. He went 10-0 down the stretch in 2005 with a 3.20 ERA but was horrendous the next season and was very quickly out of baseball.

Cortes Jr. is 27 and has been maybe the best pitcher in the AL since he was put in the rotation in the middle of last season, a 2.52 ERA in 125 innings.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Dope
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
60,913
And the no-hitter is over, single up the middle with one out in the 8th.
 

Max Power

thai good. you like shirt?
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
5,868
Boston, MA
How many no hitters have ended with the other team throwing a position player? That's about as thoroughly as you can possibly beat anyone.