Peyton Manning's Legacy
- Thread starter RIrooter09
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Brady and Manning are close, but the one thing I will keep coming back to is that Brady has shown that he can take an offense with mediocre, and sometimes shitty, parts, and take them to the playoffs and compete. Peyton Manning has never really been in that situation. When each has had weapons, their greatness has really come to light, but Manning has never really had a lull in talent around him, and he's generally had a consistent base he's worked with. Brady has had to adapt far more often. Then you factor in the dome for Peyton's numbers, and Brady's clear superiority in the elements, and he's the guy you want for an entire football season, including the playoffs.
Ed Hillel said:
On the other hand, Brady has had the stability of having maybe the best coach in history on the sideline his entire time in the league, and Manning has had some pretty mediocre shit in that department.
I'm not a Manning apologist by the way, and was rooting for Seattle tonight, and giggling when he threw the pick six. But the guy is like Mariano Rivera level good. Unfortunately there's not really an analogous situation in football, but I was there for Rivera's last appearance in Fenway and I stood up and cheered for him with everyone else. Acting like he's not a generationally good athlete is silly.
He's obviously a generational athlete.Jnai said:
He also has a losing record in the playoffs. And has 8 losses at home.
So he wins the MVP at age 37 but loses in the Super Bowl to an historically great defense and that's a tarnish on his legacy? The fuck is wrong with you people?
Brady and manning are 2 of the greatest QBs ever. In my opinion, THE top 2, and there's not a clear winner at all. Perfectly logical and sound arguments for both sides.
Brady and manning are 2 of the greatest QBs ever. In my opinion, THE top 2, and there's not a clear winner at all. Perfectly logical and sound arguments for both sides.
Who the fuck cares? All I know is that after tonight, Omaha is praying that he uses Scottsbluff next season instead.
It's pretty fucking goddamn clear right now. It's absolutely a tarnish.veritas said:
Manning is the second best QB ever. Hell of an accomplishment, but it's pretty clear who's sitting in second place.
Jnai said:
Yep, Manning gets my vote for best of the post-modern era (yes, ahead of Brady), even given the turd he laid tonight.
It's like Favre. The guy gets shit on relentlessly (pulling a Weiner doesn't help) but was one of the greatest QBs to play the game.
Hard to compare with guys who played in the old days, or even the 80s and 90s, because the rules have changed so much over the years.
CaptainLaddie said:
One bad loss for a 37 year old QB where his team totally shits the bed, is a tarnish on his legacy?
Two weeks after he totally outplayed the guy you think is "pretty fucking goddamn clearly" the better QB? Mmmkay...
Great QBs are measured on postseason success. Peyton is 1-2 in SBs with both losses being by multiple TDs. One of them by 35 points. He is one of the most talented QBs ever, but his teams have not fared well in the playoffs. If he takes the credit for "running" the offense when it's going well, he has to take the blame when they lose. It may not be fair, but it's the way it is. We all know that if the Patriots got beat like this, Brady would be getting crushed.
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Yeah..cause this is the only time Manning has ever stunk up the joint and Manning and Brady played one on one two weeks ago of course...the teams were completely the same.veritas said:
edit: I mean really the Pats almost tied the game with a team that was missing something like ten of their best players and had a receiving group where none of them would even start for the Broncos maybe other than Edelman?
and 24 ints in 23 playoff games?
E5 Yaz said:
That was negated by his war hero status. I mean if Peyton wants to justify it to himself based on his mass marketability and ability to connect with the simple folk via his yokel accent, sure. Ultimately, it's his decision.
11-12 in the playoffs. 1-2 in the biggest games. Your record says what you are: mediocre in the postseason.veritas said:
RedOctober3829 said:
Oh sorry must be thinking of a different sport where there are no teams just QBs competing against each other. Carry on
lars10 said:
Their postseason *individual* stats are actually very very similar. And if you want to talk about who's had the better supporting cast, I'd definitely give that edge to Brady over their careers. Manning has gotten some terrible teams to the playoffs and you can't hold that against him when he inevitably loses.
Forgive me if I'm missing your point, but in what world are we supposed to be where Peyton Manning is getting shit on, relentlessly or otherwise?Devizier said:
veritas said:
Which "terrible teams" has Manning gotten to the playoffs? I don't think you can give me the terrible supporting cast on offense argument at many points, if any, and if you're talking about defense, I can sure show you some terrible defenses that Brady led into the playoffs.
I will grant you that Brady had better defenses at the highest point, I don't think that's really debatable.
Pretty much this. There is zero doubt or argument the Pats have been the clear best team since the Brady/BB combo has been in place, the argument for best QB isn't as clear cut at all.veritas said:
Huge lol at anyone who thinks one of these QBs is definitely much better than the other one.
veritas said:
Let's compare talent on offense.
Mmmkay?
Edit: I'm confused you know little about football. Seriously. It's fucking clear that Brady is better. Yes, Manning has won head to head a couple of times, but Brady has won more than that.
Also: name ONE "terrible" team that Peyton has taken to the playoffs. Seriously. Shinebox.
Except Manning's team has been favored in almost all of his losses. How could he have less talent.veritas said:
I'd say Peyton slid behind Elway tonight.
Montana
Brady
Elway
Manning
Although it's a very tight grouping.
Montana
Brady
Elway
Manning
Although it's a very tight grouping.
veritas said:
I see, personal stat records=Lombardi trophies.
That's where all of us are derping.
It's very close. That's why Peyton's postseason results have a negative effect in the comparison.Stitch01 said:
Manning is a great player who gets too much crap around these parts, but most of that comes from the fact that he's been the Pats most fearsome rival for over a decade.
That said, outside of 2007, when has Brady ever had the weapons that Manning was blessed with throughout his career? That alone should give folks pause when looking at regular season and/or individual stats.
Never mind the fact that QB's really don't compete against each other, but against defenses that they have no control over as far as the personnel goes.
They're both great. Manning has some work to do to match what Tom has done. Not sure why that is a controversial stance.
That said, outside of 2007, when has Brady ever had the weapons that Manning was blessed with throughout his career? That alone should give folks pause when looking at regular season and/or individual stats.
Never mind the fact that QB's really don't compete against each other, but against defenses that they have no control over as far as the personnel goes.
They're both great. Manning has some work to do to match what Tom has done. Not sure why that is a controversial stance.
veritas said:
Wait, what?
Talk to me when Manning throws to Reche Caldwell, Doug Gabriel, the corpse of Troy Brown, and Ben Watson and comes within an inch of the Super Bowl.
Brady may have had superior defensive talent around him from 01-04, but Manning has had INSANELY better offensive talent than Brady has, sans 07.
Look, when you're THE GUY at QB in NFL history, and everyone is supposed to worship you, and then you have a losing record in the playoffs, you can't keep blaming your defense and skill players. Peyton's legacy is built on being THE BEST QB EVER and it's kind of a joke. Guess what: when you have Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Marvin Harrison for a decade and then move to another team and have Thomas, Decker, Thomas and Welker -- you can't make excuses. You have some of the best offensive players at their position ever, and your team has lost more games than it's won in the playoffs. And when it comes to the Super Bowl, if you want to play with numbers, they ain't close.
The idea that this game tarnishes Peyton's legacy as an all-time great is silly, but I don't think anyone here is really saying that it did. That it really hurt his argument for greatest of all time, however, is certainly in play. The sport has been around long enough that the criteria for that imaginary title is almost insanely nit-picky. I don't think a single person in this thread would leave Peyton Manning out of their top ten best quarterbacks to ever play the game, but when we're talking 1A, failures like tonight are relevant. There's some validity to penalizing him for the playoff record, especially the two Super Bowl losses in which his turnovers were backbreaking.
I'm fine with calling him and Brady relatively close, but if we were going to allow a win tonight to give him the de facto edge, a loss has to hurt his argument a fair amount. Brady's rings, the inferior offensive skill players sans 07, and the bad defenses from 2008 on certainly cancel out or even outweigh Peyton's regular season counting stats and the coaching discrepancy.
Basically, I'm with Laddie. Peyton is fucking awesome. But there's enough responsibility for playoff shortcomings to say that fucking awesome isn't synonymous with BEST EVER.
I'm fine with calling him and Brady relatively close, but if we were going to allow a win tonight to give him the de facto edge, a loss has to hurt his argument a fair amount. Brady's rings, the inferior offensive skill players sans 07, and the bad defenses from 2008 on certainly cancel out or even outweigh Peyton's regular season counting stats and the coaching discrepancy.
Basically, I'm with Laddie. Peyton is fucking awesome. But there's enough responsibility for playoff shortcomings to say that fucking awesome isn't synonymous with BEST EVER.
veritas said:
No he already had the rep as being stats machine, but playoff dud. Another win after his comeback would change it to the new Peyton is a winner. But then he sucked, and not for the first time. You really think he gets 50tds throwing to the guys Brady had this year?
Jungleland said:
The whole Brady-Manning thing reminds me (in some ways) of the Federer-Nadal debate in tennis. The analogy isn't perfect since they are slightly different ages, but it is undeniable that Federer (despite having all the stats on his side) could not get past Nadal in the biggest matches.