Between the amount of games JBJ missed and his utter suck on offense (related concepts in his case), I'm glad he didn't win the GG. I get that it's a defensive award and that it does not logically follow that winners need to be accomplished on offense. But JBJ's lack of produciton with the bat in 2014 was arguably beyond the pale, even in the context of a defensive award.HangingW/ScottCooper said:Congrats Pedey. Also, it's a shame that JBJ didn't get it over Jones.
So JBJ shouldn't win a defensive award because his offense sucked? Does not compute. JBJ blew away Jones in RF and DWAR. What Bradley did on offense should have no impact on what he did on defense.TheoShmeo said:Between the amount of games JBJ missed and his utter suck on offense (related concepts in his case), I'm glad he didn't win the GG. I get that it's a defensive award and that it does not logically follow that winners need to be accomplished on offense. But JBJ's lack of produciton with the bat in 2014 was arguably beyond the pale, even in the context of a defensive award.
And yeah, a hearty salute to DP. His brand of defense is a pleasure to watch.
Wait, why should offensive production have anything at all to do with an award which is only supposed to recognise defense? Do you think he was so bad with the bat that we should pretend he spent the season in the minors as he probably should have?TheoShmeo said:Between the amount of games JBJ missed and his utter suck on offense (related concepts in his case), I'm glad he didn't win the GG. I get that it's a defensive award and that it does not logically follow that winners need to be accomplished on offense. But JBJ's lack of produciton with the bat in 2014 was arguably beyond the pale, even in the context of a defensive award.
TheoShmeo said:Between the amount of games JBJ missed and his utter suck on offense (related concepts in his case), I'm glad he didn't win the GG. I get that it's a defensive award and that it does not logically follow that winners need to be accomplished on offense. But JBJ's lack of produciton with the bat in 2014 was arguably beyond the pale, even in the context of a defensive award.
Good and fair questions from all of you.Savin Hillbilly said:
Would you carry this in the other direction as well? Would you have denied Manny Ramirez all 8 of his Silver Slugger awards on the grounds that his lack of production with the glove was beyond the pale, even in the context of an offensive award?
Lose Remerswaal said:To those asking about what offensive production has to do with Golden Gloves, the answer SHOULD be: "NOTHING". But the facts are the facts, that Golden Glove awards ARE skewed by offensive statistics and have been for decades (see Palmeiro, Rafael: 1999), which is why you see Adam Jones beating JBJ for the Gold Glove this year with defensive stats that are comparatively positively offensive.
This kills me. As much as I love Baseball things like this make me hate it a little too.Montana Fan said:One more and he'll be as good defensively as Cap'n Jetes.
This may be true but then again the team finished last 2 of the last 3 years and is now getting young very quick. What exactly is he crucial to?Koufax said:Good for him. There may be others as good, but no other second baseman is as crucial to his team as Pedie.
You are right--he's clearly of no value to the team as a player or leader for the young teammates. Let's trade him for a player to be named later if we could get that much.seantoo said:This may be true but then again the team finished last 2 of the last 3 years and is now getting young very quick. What exactly is he crucial to?
seantoo said:This may be true but then again the team finished last 2 of the last 3 years and is now getting young very quick. What exactly is he crucial to?
Yea, well Mookie can clearly do this too and he's ten years younger!JohntheBaptist said:He's crucial to facepalm inducing message board trade proposals, that's for sure.
Can you clarify this, you say one thing the other and the pieces do not fit at least they don't by your explanation.TheoShmeo said:Between the amount of games JBJ missed and his utter suck on offense (related concepts in his case), I'm glad he didn't win the GG. I get that it's a defensive award and that it does not logically follow that winners need to be accomplished on offense. But JBJ's lack of produciton with the bat in 2014 was arguably beyond the pale, even in the context of a defensive award.
And yeah, a hearty salute to DP. His brand of defense is a pleasure to watch.
Trying to put a little perspective on where the team is right now. [SIZE=14.3999996185303px]Maybe a few moves down the road that changes quickly but with our staff right now there is alot of work and/or time required to change things. There is a reason why players in Andre Dawson's situation rarely win MVP's. [/SIZE]TomRicardo said:
Probably that team in the middle that won the World Series? Are you seriously asking that?
I asked a simple question, "what is he crucial to?" Did I say or even imply he has no value? Of course not, put down the pom-poms and just answer the question. Not what his value is, but what is he crucial to? It's not meant to make a declaration but encourage thought, good grief.SoxLegacy said:You are right--he's clearly of no value to the team as a player or leader for the young teammates. Let's trade him for a player to be named later if we could get that much.
seantoo said:Trying to put a little perspective on where the team is right now. [SIZE=14.39px]Maybe a few moves down the road that changes quickly but with our staff right now there is alot of work and/or time required to change things.[/SIZE]
TheoShmeo said:Seatoo, it fits in fine. When your offense is so bad that you end up on the bench or in the minors for a huge chunk of games, you should not win the Gold Glove.
If Bradley had played as many games as Adam Jones, then yeah, he should have won the Gold Glove. Part of me would have wondered about a guy with horrific offensive numbers winning the award, but that part of me would have been wrong.
Theoshmeo, I agree with this and even if you are wrong it is how the real world operates.TheoShmeo said:Seatoo, it fits in fine. When your offense is so bad that you end up on the bench or in the minors for a huge chunk of games, you should not win the Gold Glove.
If Bradley had played as many games as Adam Jones, then yeah, he should have won the Gold Glove. Part of me would have wondered about a guy with horrific offensive numbers winning the award, but that part of me would have been wrong.
But JBJ's lack of produciton with the bat in 2014 was arguably beyond the pale, even in the context of a defensive award.
I'll put down the pom-poms when you put away the pitchforks and torches. If you pay attention to the team, you might recall that John Henry, Lucchino, Ben Cherington believe that Pedroia is a franchise player due to the fact that the team awarded him what amounts to a lifetime contract which, judging by the statements at the time and since then, was based on valuation of not just his baseball skills but also his leadership and capacity to be a role model for the younger players. Clearly there are several key figures in the Red Sox front office that believe that Pedroia is crucial to the success of the franchise.seantoo said:I asked a simple question, "what is he crucial to?" Did I say or even imply he has no value? Of course not, put down the pom-poms and just answer the question. Not what his value is, but what is he crucial to? It's not meant to make a declaration but encourage thought, good grief.
Again Pitchforks and Torches? Where is their any sign of that? That's you again being defensive. When a team finishes in last place hard questions should be asked, unconventional ones as well. This is not 2012, where injuries and down years by key members of the team gave a realistic hope that 2013 would be much better. With nearly the entire rotation traded, the hole to climb out of is much steeper this go round.SoxLegacy said:I'll put down the pom-poms when you put away the pitchforks and torches. If you pay attention to the team, you might recall that John Henry, Lucchino, Ben Cherington believe that Pedroia is a franchise player due to the fact that the team awarded him what amounts to a lifetime contract which, judging by the statements at the time and since then, was based on valuation of not just his baseball skills but also his leadership and capacity to be a role model for the younger players. Clearly there are several key figures in the Red Sox front office that believe that Pedroia is crucial to the success of the franchise.
'Nuff sed. This thread was supposed to be about a member of the Sox winning the Gold Glove. Congratulations, Pedey!
I'm not being defensive, it's called having a different point of view than yours on the value that Pedroia (and apparently anyone over the age of 30) has to the team. Injuries and down years didn't figure into the team performance in 2014? I think that Pedey's wrist, Victorino's back, Napoli's finger, and the myriad of ills afflicting Middlebrooks coupled with the underperforming Bradley, Bogaerts, Nava, Ross, Buchholz, Doubront, and Peavy had something to do with the W/L record.seantoo said:Again Pitchforks and Torches? Where is their any sign of that? That's you again being defensive. When a team finishes in last place hard questions should be asked, unconventional ones as well. This is not 2012, where injuries and down years by key members of the team gave a realistic hope that 2013 would be much better. With nearly the entire rotation traded, the hole to climb out of is much steeper this go round.
There is a very realistic chance it takes multiple years before we can seriously contend again. Anyone that is 30 years or older now may not be as crucial to the next great Redsox team as you think.
Ortiz and Koji were deep into their 30's last year and the 2013 World Championship doesn't happen with your line of thinking...seantoo said:Again Pitchforks and Torches? Where is their any sign of that? That's you again being defensive. When a team finishes in last place hard questions should be asked, unconventional ones as well. This is not 2012, where injuries and down years by key members of the team gave a realistic hope that 2013 would be much better. With nearly the entire rotation traded, the hole to climb out of is much steeper this go round.
There is a very realistic chance it takes multiple years before we can seriously contend again. Anyone that is 30 years or older now may not be as crucial to the next great Redsox team as you think.
I think your missing a key element. This team is in a different stage of development then the 2012 team. If this was 2012 I'd being singing a different tune, however you appear to approach team building as if all teams are in the same stage of team development. You have to have different approaches and even any specific strategy has to have multiple plans within that same approach. Guys like Napoli (especially with Craig in the fold) are definitely guys you'd consider trading and not because he's not valuable but because he is valuable and he's only here for this year. He's definitely on the back nine of his career to so extending his does not seem prudent, so why not trade in a current asset you have to help you down the road when you have a better chance of contending. This is common sense, yes?SoxLegacy said:I'm not being defensive, it's called having a different point of view than yours on the value that Pedroia (and apparently anyone over the age of 30) has to the team. Injuries and down years didn't figure into the team performance in 2014? I think that Pedey's wrist, Victorino's back, Napoli's finger, and the myriad of ills afflicting Middlebrooks coupled with the underperforming Bradley, Bogaerts, Nava, Ross, Buchholz, Doubront, and Peavy had something to do with the W/L record.
Following your line of thought, the Sox should look into moving Pedroia, Ortiz, and Napoli this off season as well as avoid going after Lester, Scherzer, Headley, et al because they might not be of any value to the future team due to their age. And what about the part about the team owners and front office valuing leadership? It's the veteran players that are the folks providing that commodity. Happily, your thoughts are not reflective of the front office.
Please learn to read or you can pursue repeating the same crap until others think its true. After his last injury the boat sailed on that one, which was minor to begin with and I noted that early on but that was conveniently ignored.MakMan44 said:How are they in a different "stage of development"? What does that even mean? You're still not making a good case that the Red Sox can't be competitive in 2015 and you're derailing the Pedroia thread even further. But please, keep on earning your tag line and telling us (for the millionth time) that trading Pedroia is a brilliant idea.
seantoo said:Please learn to read or you can pursue repeating the same crap until others think its true.
It's just a weird turn of phrase for a baseball team.seantoo said:Please learn to read or you can pursue repeating the same crap until others think its true. After his last injury the boat sailed on that one, which was minor to begin with and I noted that early on but that was conveniently ignored.
Different stage of development is a confusing concept to you? If I have to explain it to you then I shouldn't bother. Their is different levels of competing too. They will spend and make trades and should obviously be better but chances are they will be only be competitive for a wc if everything breaks right. That's compete to not actually win. They have to many young players who usually take 2 years to approach their own level and to many major holes as well. It could happen but most agree that it is unlikely to compete for the WS.
Cherington, on how Dustin Pedroia is progressing from wrist surgery: “He told me he’s going to hit .480 next season.”
***
Shortstop Xander Bogaerts is scheduled to arrive in Arizona later this month to begin training at the Athletes Performance Institute in Scottsdale. Bogaerts will return home to Aruba around the holidays, then come back to API in January, and report from there to spring training, Cherington said. The club recommended to Bogaerts that he come to API to train, but no, the GM said, he won’t be working out with Pedroia.
“Dustin doesn't work out at API anymore,” Cherington said. “When you get to Dustin’s level, they come to you.’’