Pats Release Cam Newton

cornwalls@6

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Marino had beaten the Bears on a Monday night earlier in the season the Bears only loss. However I think the Bears would have been just as motivated for a rematch with Miami in Super Bowl XX should they have been the opponent.
And Ditka would have, at gunpoint if necessary, forced Ryan to back off the 46 look a little bit, and mix in some zone coverages. Marino with his release, and those small, quick receivers were the one offense in the league that year capable of beating that blitz. Even Walsh hadn't really figured it out at that point.
 

Cellar-Door

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I guess that time he almost led them to a week 2 victory at Seattle.............. otherwise, yeah, I got nothing.
Yeah I mean after week 2 he was sitting on a 71% completions, ANY/A of 7.76 and 120 rushing yards, with 5 total TDs to 1 turnover. Then is started to fall apart
 

loshjott

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Yeah I mean after week 2 he was sitting on a 71% completions, ANY/A of 7.76 and 120 rushing yards, with 5 total TDs to 1 turnover. Then is started to fall apart
To be fair to Chris Simms (OK, not really) there was quite a bit of commentary after week 2 about "how did everyone else let Belichick get Cam Newton for a song."
 

rodderick

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Yeah I mean after week 2 he was sitting on a 71% completions, ANY/A of 7.76 and 120 rushing yards, with 5 total TDs to 1 turnover. Then is started to fall apart
I think people at the time got a little too excited about that second half against a team that gave up 900 combined passing yards (not an exaggeration) in the game prior and the game following Cam's performance. We played the Seahawks when their pass defense was historically bad.
 

Shaky Walton

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Some thoughts on this:

One, I am not a fan of comparisons to Brady, because Brady is truly in a class of one. But the sense of relief I have that Belichick went with Mac now, when he could have waited, is similar to how I felt about his decision heading into the Saints game in 2001 and then after the AFC Championship game that year. That we've been spared having to see Cam miss passes and make agonizing mistakes late in games is such a blessing, and of course this kid is presumably the QB of the future and shows lots of promise. I couldn't be more happy that Bill pulled the trigger now, and chose not to wait.

Two, I did think Bill would start Mac in week one, and am glad I was not swayed by the views expressed by likes of Danny Boy and Trollin Volin (as contrasted with them themselves, who I know he would never care about), but I never saw Bill cutting Cam. But, in retrospect, an unvaxed Cam is at greater risk for Covid than vaxed players, and it's not hard to imagine Cam getting Covid and then knocking out the other QBs through contract tracing. What a potential disaster. Now, make no mistake, I am not saying this was Bill's reason. And I think that the Pats offense in pre-season games looked much smoother and better with Mac than Cam. But if Cam got covid, it may have been disastrous because of the ripple effect.

Three, Cam's performance against the Eagles was so over praised. There was almost no pressure on him in that game. We saw last year that Cam consistently made the wrong read or bad throws when he had pressure. In most games, there will be pressure. How he fared in such an artificial scenario is not at all relevant in my view.

Four, the inevitable "black balled like Kaepernick" stories are so wrong headed. Critically, given the covid scenario I mentioned, this goes way beyond the issues affecting Kaep, as he was not gonna knock out any other players from eligibility. And yeah, the do share a commonality. Neither was very good at football at the end. Sure, Kaepernick was better than other back ups who had jobs, but the media shit show that would have ensued made not having him as a back up totally understandable. Why would any team want that much focus on an insurance policy? And we all know that the whole NFL passed on Cam before the Pats turned to him in desperation, and we all saw how he performed in the Pats offense last year.

Five, I don't know what Mac is gonna turn into. But damn, this is exciting. He displays so many traits -- work ethic, accuracy, intelligence, winning pedigree, leadership -- that bode well. I may be guilty of buying into the hype. But as my brother pointed out before the draft, anyone with a completion percentage that high in a major college program is, at the very least, highly unique.

Six, the idea that Bill should have waited to get past the Brady game was, in my opinion, ludicrous. Mac played in so many big games at Alabama. The idea that he was going to wet his pants because Tom Brady is coming to town...childish. Yes, it will be an intense story and the hype will be off the hook. But there's a reason why Mac Jones won the job, and part of it is that he's not some ninny who is gonna be swallowed up by a media storm.

Seven, for me, hearing of Bill's decision was the best sports news/event I have been made aware of since the Pats finished off the Rams.

So color me more than a little excited as the days count down to the Miami game.
 

Cellar-Door

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I think people at the time got a little too excited about that second half against a team that gave up 900 combined passing yards (not an exaggeration) in the game prior and the game following Cam's performance. We played the Seahawks when their pass defense was historically bad.
He played well against MIA too. I think anyone who thought he'd throw for 320+ a week was crazy, but a MIA type performance would still have made him really valuable. Take care of the ball, complete passes, run effectively for chunk plays to open up the D, and be a monster in the red-zone. That's a really valuable QB. Problem is for whatever reason his running fell off, and his passing regressed. Some of the rushing could be COVID related, the passing was mostly just a shredded shoulder, bad footwork, bad receiving options and a lack of playbook knowledge. THe thought this year was that 3 of those would be fixed, and the footwork might improve. To an extent that was true, but the shoulder is still a mess and the footwork still inconsistent, so they're moving on.
 

Eddie Jurak

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That Bears D was just insane, but the funny thing is that if Miami didn't shit down their leg looking past NE in the AFCCG, the Bears probably don't win the 85/86 SB. Marino et al had the exact offense to exploit the shit out of that Bears D.
There was no looking past NE. One crazy thing about Marino is that the Patriots of that era had a lot of success against him. For his career, he threw more interceptions than touchdowns against New England (42-46 in 30 games). From 1985 through 1988, Marino was 1-8 against the Patriots in the regular season, including 7 straight losses from 1986 to 1988 (including the 1985 playoff game). In those 9 games he threw 12 TDs and 16 INTs. And the lone win was a 30-27 win in which Marino was nothing special: 17-33 for 192 yards, 1 TD and 1 INT. The Patriots are the only team Marino played more than 5 times and threw fewer TDs than INTs. Ray Berry's Pats had his number.
 

Ferm Sheller

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For his career, he threw more interceptions than touchdowns against New England (42-46 in 30 games).
That's an amazing stat. I never would have guessed that. I recall that Marino struggled at times against the Pats, but I also thought he torched them quite a bit, too.
 

Eddie Jurak

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That's an amazing stat. I never would have guessed that. I recall that Marino struggled at times against the Pats, but I also thought he torched them quite a bit, too.
He may well have torched them quite a bit during the Rod Rust/Dick McPherson errors.
 

54thMA

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He may well have torched them quite a bit during the Rod Rust/Dick McPherson errors.
Hey, you spelled eras wro.....................oh I see what you did there.

And yes, they were "errors", specifically Rod "I'm proud of my men" Rust.

What a disaster he was.
 

Groovenstein

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I fully expected for the clip to end with Gronk getting mugged in the end zone as a pass gently falls a few feet in front of him. Great game.
“Clete! That’s criminal!”

(Aside: I’m on a message board for trial attorneys in Nebraska, and every now and again Clete will post a legal question of one sort or another. Every time I’ve so wanted to reply, “I want to help you out, but that non-call was criminal.”)
 

rodderick

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He played well against MIA too. I think anyone who thought he'd throw for 320+ a week was crazy, but a MIA type performance would still have made him really valuable. Take care of the ball, complete passes, run effectively for chunk plays to open up the D, and be a monster in the red-zone. That's a really valuable QB. Problem is for whatever reason his running fell off, and his passing regressed. Some of the rushing could be COVID related, the passing was mostly just a shredded shoulder, bad footwork, bad receiving options and a lack of playbook knowledge. THe thought this year was that 3 of those would be fixed, and the footwork might improve. To an extent that was true, but the shoulder is still a mess and the footwork still inconsistent, so they're moving on.
Yeah, I don't think you're winning a lot of games with the kind of performance he had against Miami and there's a reason he never really replicated it. Teams adjusted and that was that. He couldn't throw the ball.
 

NortheasternPJ

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Oh you're right.

But it's still a penalty.
I file this under the Tom Brady got called twice (in the 2007 SB and the Seattle game) for Intentional Grounding that's never called. It was the right call, but 99% of the time it's not called. This falls in that same bucket. It's the right call but never called that way.
 

Ralphwiggum

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Apropos of nothing I watched that Gronk non-call game in the delivery room awaiting my youngest’s arrival. Took some of the sting out.
 

Captaincoop

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View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7L_7qIPkKU


I don't think there's any way Gronk gets that ball. Gronk has a ton of awful non-calls in his career, this one is an awful throw by Brady to a double covered Gronk and he under threw it.
I've never heard of "uncatchable" defined to include being uncatchable because there is another defender between the receiver and the ball. Would have to look at the text of the rule, though.

The ball was traveling on a plane that clearly - CLEARLY - would have been catchable for Gronk, but for the defender who picked it off. If he wasn't held, could Gronk have cut back and gotten his hands on it? The defensive back did - and they were in basically the same position when they recognized the ball's path. It seems like he should get the benefit of the doubt in that situation, but NFL rule interpretations are generally insane, so who knows.

That was truly infuriating when it happened, though.
 

RIrooter09

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I've never heard of "uncatchable" defined to include being uncatchable because there is another defender between the receiver and the ball. Would have to look at the text of the rule, though.

The ball was traveling on a plane that clearly - CLEARLY - would have been catchable for Gronk, but for the defender who picked it off. If he wasn't held, could Gronk have cut back and gotten his hands on it? The defensive back did - and they were in basically the same position when they recognized the ball's path. It seems like he should get the benefit of the doubt in that situation, but NFL rule interpretations are generally insane, so who knows.

That was truly infuriating when it happened, though.
Cost us home field if I remember correctly.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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How in the everlasting fuck does Chris Simms still have a job?
I don't understand how any of the Simms ever had a job at anything. His dad was a mediocre QB who parlayed that into being the worst announcer in sports, and having a son be a lousy college qb, a lousy pro qb, have a lousy spleen, then be a lousy analyst. Why do either of these goons get employment
 

Cotillion

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I don't understand how any of the Simms ever had a job at anything. His dad was a mediocre QB who parlayed that into being the worst announcer in sports, and having a son be a lousy college qb, a lousy pro qb, have a lousy spleen, then be a lousy analyst. Why do either of these goons get employment
Cause the world really isn't as big a meritocracy as the propaganda would have you believe...
 

wiffleballhero

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In the simulacrum
Phil Simms was a basically photogenic hick from Kentucky who also played football in NYC. That is a relatively good angle for a national profile. His son is a moron on TV shows mostly watched by other morons (present company excluded). We live in a world where Terry Bradshaw is paid to say things out loud. The Simms family dynasty is just the tip of the iceberg.
 

pedroia'sboys

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I don't understand how any of the Simms ever had a job at anything. His dad was a mediocre QB who parlayed that into being the worst announcer in sports, and having a son be a lousy college qb, a lousy pro qb, have a lousy spleen, then be a lousy analyst. Why do either of these goons get employment
I completely agreed with this then I researched Chris Simms QB Pre Draft Rankings.

In 2017 he had Maholmes over Watson and called him a generational talent.

2018
  1. Lamar Jackson
  2. Josh Allen
  3. Baker Mayfield
  4. Sam Darnold
  5. Josh Rosen
2019
  1. Kyler Murray
  2. Drew Lock
  3. Dwayne Haskins
  4. Ryan Finley
  5. Jarrett Stidham
  6. Daniel Jones
  7. Clayton Thorson
  8. Will Grier
2020
  1. Joe Burrow
  2. Justin Herbert
  3. Jordan Love
  4. Tua Tagovailoa
 
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Remagellan

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I completely agreed with this then I researched Chris Simms QB Pre Draft Rankings.

In 2017 he had Maholmes over Watson and called him a generational talent.

2018
  1. Lamar Jackson
  2. Josh Allen
  3. Baker Mayfield
  4. Sam Darnold
  5. Josh Rosen
2019
  1. Kyler Murray
  2. Drew Lock
  3. Dwayne Haskins
  4. Ryan Finley
  5. Jarrett Stidham
  6. Daniel Jones
  7. Clayton Thorson
  8. Will Grier
2020
  1. Joe Burrow
  2. Justin Herbert
  3. Jordan Love
  4. Tua Tagovailoa
And he had 2021's QBs:

1. Zach Wilson
2. Trevor Lawrence
3. Mac Jones
4. Kellen Mond
5. Justin Fields

The Giant bashing on this board is ridiculous. Phil Simms was an excellent QB who played in a wind tunnel with horrible receivers for most of his career. Bill Walsh wanted to draft him over Joe Montana, but didn't have the opportunity because the Niners traded their first round pick to the Bills for OJ Simpson the year before.

Look, I'm glad Bill chose to go with Mac over Cam, both because I think it was the right call, and because I was a little nervous about him being overly cautious about starting the year with a rookie QB would cost us a win in a key divisional game. But if he had gone with Cam, that would have been a defensible move, because Cam did look better in the preseason than he did at the end of last year, and with the kind of run heavy offense they seem to be running this year, they could compete with a healthy Cam. But their offense could have been a lot less efficient with him at the helm, and his availability would have been a constant concern given his unvaccinated status, so it became an easier decision to just trust Mac with the team from the start.
 

Soxy

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Lazar seems to confirm what I thought may be the case, which is that this competition wasn't very close:

According to several discussions with offensive players on the Pats, New England’s QB competition wasn’t particularly close and was trending this way for weeks.

After Jones carved up the Giants’ starting defense on the first day of joint practices, we reported that the key decision-makers in the organization saw that the rookie was outplaying Newton.

And speaking to those that knew the play calls, reads, protections, good plays, and bad plays, Jones’s execution of the offense was better than an improved Newton’s this summer.

The question became about the best course of action to transition to Jones, not if Jones would start this season, and Belichick decided to avoid delaying the inevitable.

Although Newton’s timing improved this summer, coaches grew frustrated with his lack of ability to check the offense out of plays that weren’t going to succeed against a particular defense.
Even if we put aside everything that was happening after the ball was snapped, it seemed pretty damning that the rookie looked way ahead of Cam pre-snap. Not that it was ever Cam's strong suit, but he's a 10-year vet in his second season with the team, and the rookie was ahead of him in picking up the offense. Not the first time we've seen vets have trouble grasping things here, and that may ultimately be more of a positive reflection on Mac than anything, but Cam doesn't really have the arm talent any more to be able to compensate as a "see it, throw it" kind of guy. He needs to be accurate and on time with the ball, and he needs to be able to make the correct pre-snap and post-snap adjustments, at least in this offense, and that's never really been his game. He's always been the superman with otherworldly talent that could just do things nobody else could.

I was extremely hopeful that it would work when they signed Cam last offseason, but he needed to adapt his game a little bit. It's kind of like when a pitcher loses their stuff. Some guys can transition into being a crafty command pitcher when their stuff starts to diminish. Some can't. It looked promising at the start, but Cam never really took to it in the end.
 

E5 Yaz

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Even if you don't agree with Simms' takes, some of the takes here are unfair at best. Personal attacks on his father are also unnecessary.
Yeah, but we're hiding behind keyboards and aliases ... so we can be tough
 

Harry Hooper

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The limitations of Phil Simms as a broadcaster seemed to have bled over to views of him as a player. He was a fine player.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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I'm glad someone defended Phil Simms. He was a terrific QB and always seemed like a good guy to me.
That's how I feel.

I'm also glad Chris Simms' QB rankings are also posted. I distinctly remember him taking a ton of crap for having Jones as the #3 prospect when no one else did.

Both Simms deserve credit where they are due. Otherwise, back it up with any kind of decent analysis or evidence.
 

johnmd20

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That's how I feel.

I'm also glad Chris Simms' QB rankings are also posted. I distinctly remember him taking a ton of crap for having Jones as the #3 prospect when no one else did.

Both Simms deserve credit where they are due. Otherwise, back it up with any kind of decent analysis or evidence.
Yeah, why is Phil Simms getting shredded here? So weird.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Lazar seems to confirm what I thought may be the case, which is that this competition wasn't very close:
Bedard has said the same, and is doing a game by game review of the preseason coaches tape.

Game 1 (vs WFT) here:

https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2021/09/03/nfl-patriots-coaches-film-mac-jones-newton-washington

He goes plays by play, and adds a few details he'd missed before, for example noting that on a play where Mac scrambled for a short gain, his likely intended receiver had gotten tripped up on a crossing route. All in all, he has neither QB doing all that well in this game, but he has Mac being far better at avoiding below average plays (only 3 in 22 plays; 13.6%) where Cam made frequent below average plays (4 in 7; 57.1%).

I don't think either quarterback was all that great in the game, as evidenced by two grades in C range.

Jones was quicker, and he was clearly better although that's a bit unfair given that Jones had 22 dropbacks and Newton just seven.

Jones did have 4 "A "(4-5 points) throws in 22 attempts (18 percent). Newton had 1 in 7 (14 percent).

But Jones had only 3 of 22 plays below average (13.6 percent). Newton had 4 in 7 (57.1 percent).

That could be the point of all this, and a big reason why Jones won out over Newton: Both will give you similar good plays, but Jones will minimize the poor plays.

Through one game, similar ceiling, Jones has the higher floor.

Game 1 winner: Jones.
 

RedOctober3829

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Rob Ninkovich says he heard from his sources inside the building that Mac Jones was actually helping Cam learn the playbook. Think about that for a second. A guy in his 2nd year in the system did not grasp the playbook as well as a rookie who just stepped in the building.
 

E5 Yaz

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Rob Ninkovich says he heard from his sources inside the building that Mac Jones was actually helping Cam learn the playbook. Think about that for a second. A guy in his 2nd year in the system did not grasp the playbook as well as a rookie who just stepped in the building.
Nink being newish to the ways of media, I wonder if he took an anecdotal account and made it into a blanket statement. He could easily have heard that Mac was explaining what he looks for during one of a multitude of plays. It would be foolish of any veteran not to ask teammates for their input on such things.

It doesn't necessarily translate into Cam not grasping the playbook. This could be a single instance on a specific play.
 

Captaincoop

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Nine being newish to the ways of media, I wonder if he took an anecdotal account and made it into a blanket statement. He could easily have heard that Mac was explaining what he looks for during one of a multitude of plays. It would be foolish of any veteran not to ask teammates for their input on such things.

It doesn't necessarily translate into Cam not grasping the playbook. This could be a single instance on a specific play.
Valid point. But from what we did see, it seems plausible.
 

RedOctober3829

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Nink's full quote

"From what I gained ... from sources inside the actual building, from everything I understand now, Mac [Jones] was basically helping Cam [Newton] learn the playbook. ...
"Because Mac was having less M.E.s, that's mental errors ... and having a better understanding of the offense. We didn't see Cam running any two minute, we didn't see him run any no huddle. You have to run no huddle. That's vital."

https://www.barstoolsports.com/blog/3382161/rob-ninkovich-says-mac-jones-was-helping-cam-newton-learn-the-patriots-playbook
 

E5 Yaz

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Nink's full quote

"From what I gained ... from sources inside the actual building, from everything I understand now, Mac [Jones] was basically helping Cam [Newton] learn the playbook. ...
"Because Mac was having less M.E.s, that's mental errors ... and having a better understanding of the offense. We didn't see Cam running any two minute, we didn't see him run any no huddle. You have to run no huddle. That's vital."

https://www.barstoolsports.com/blog/3382161/rob-ninkovich-says-mac-jones-was-helping-cam-newton-learn-the-patriots-playbook
The two-minute and no-huddle comments add needed context. Thanks.