On a scale of Dante Bichette to David Ortiz...

How much do you enjoy having Price on the Sox roster?

  • 1 (I'd have preferred rooting for Arod)

  • 2-3

  • 4-6 (Hired guns are fine if we win)

  • 7-8

  • 9

  • 10 (Ortiz and Pedro love child)


Results are only viewable after voting.

Savin Hillbilly

loves the secret sauce
SoSH Member
Jul 10, 2007
18,783
The wrong side of the bridge....
And Jimy Williams, trolling us with his 'bat Andy Sheets third cause that's where Valentin, the usual 3baseman hits' lineups.
Hasn't every Sox manager of the past 20 years, including Tito and Farrell, done that? It used to drive me bats (as it were), but now I've come to regard it as evidence that managers understand the relative insignificance of batting order better than most of us.
 

Mighty Joe Young

The North remembers
SoSH Member
Sep 14, 2002
8,696
Halifax, Nova Scotia , Canada
Hasn't every Sox manager of the past 20 years, including Tito and Farrell, done that? It used to drive me bats (as it were), but now I've come to regard it as evidence that managers understand the relative insignificance of batting order better than most of us.
Or they think keeping players in their accustomed batting order slot is more important than the marginal gain.

Similar to the argument for having designated closers and setup men.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
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Jul 14, 2005
25,923
Miami (oh, Miami!)
I read in FanGraphs that this year Crawford is getting paid the second most dead money ($21.9m) of any player this year. The only person he's behind is Josh Hamilton, who is getting paid $26.4m by the Angels to play for the Rangers.

That Crawford contract was really, really, REALLY terrible.
Seems like it's time for a Punto Trade retrospective, since I have lunch free.

Mid 2012 Punto Trade:
Sox Send - Gonzalez, Crawford, Beckett, Punto, Cash
Sox Get - (salary relief of 252.5 mil), Loney, De Jesus, Webster, Sands, De La Rosa.​

2013 Sox Sign: Gomes, Victorino, Koji, S.Drew, Napoli, Dempster, and purchased Carp.

2013 gave us a WS victory which is hard to value via:
Victorino 6.5 WAR
Napoli 4
Koji 3.6
S.Drew 3
Carp 1.2
Gomes 1.1
Dempster 0
Total 19.4 WAR (I didn't do the $ breakdown - the point is that the freed cash allowed the FA signings.)​

Compare that to the 2013 GCBP production for LA:
Gonzalez 3.9 WAR $21m
Punto 2.1 $2(?)
Crawford 1.6 $20
Beckett neg .8 $16
Total 8 WAR for $59m​

In 2013 both Boston and LA got to the post season, with LA losing the NLCS to the Cardinals. It's highly unlikely that Boston would have gotten to the post season without the FA upgrades, pretty much all of whom outperformed the players they replaced (13.5 WAR v 8 WAR) while allowing more value to be added in terms of other signings. As time passes other factors beyond just the traded players will play larger roles.

However, 2014 gave us a last place finish, and the following:
Napoli 3.3 WAR
Koji 1.7
Victorino .6
De La Rosa .4
Carp 0
Gomes 0
(S.Drew came back as an ineffectual FA)
Total 6 WAR​

2014 gave LA a post season berth (NLDS loss):
Gonzalez 3.8 WAR $21m
Crawford 2.3 $20
Beckett 1.9 $16
Total 8 WAR for $57m​

So in 2014 contracts aside, Gonzalez, Crawford, and Beckett, would have made an upgrade over Napoli, Victorino, and De La Rosa. The Sox had bigger problems though, and I don't believe magically undoing the trade would have put them in the post-season mix in 2014. That said, the money locked into the 2013 FA class was not paying nearly the same dividends in 2014.

2015 gave us another last place finish with the following:
Victorino .6 (traded mid-season for Rutledge)
Napoli .6 (traded mid-season for cash)
Miley 2.5 WAR (obtained with Webster and De La Rosa)
(Koji came back as a FA)
Total 3.7 WAR - but that's scraping the bottom of the barrel.​

2015 gave LA a post season berth (NLDS loss):
Gonzalez 4 WAR $22m
Crawford neg. .01 WAR $21
Total: 3.9 WAR for $43m​

So in 2015, magically undoing the trade (even though Gonzales was good) would again not have likely helped the season outcome for the Sox. Once Victorino and Napoli were traded, the last of the 2013 FA restocking class were gone. The Sox still had (and have), in theory, the flexibility of the money they saved at the tail end of the 2012 season, but have already been reallocating it in different ways, smartly and stupidly, as the FA market allows. However, that "freed" money should be viewed as only the money LA remains on the hook for at any given time: aprox. $43m for 2015, $44m for 2016, $44m 2017, and $22m for 2018.

2016 saw us back in the post season (ALDS loss), with no direct trade players.

2016 gave LA yet another post season berth (NLCS loss):
Gonzalez 2.1 WAR $22 (another $22 for 2017 and 2018)
Crawford (released) $22 (another $22 remaining for 2017)
Total: 2.1 WAR for $44m
It seems that at this point $44m is still a significant chuck of change for the Sox. If they're near their unofficial cap, an extra $44m (and Gonzalez locked into 2.1 WAR at 1b/DH) would likely have prevented some signings (almost certainly Price).

Looking back, in terms of direct contributions from traded players, not much happened for the Sox.
  • Sands and De Jesus were (with Pimentel and Melancon) traded for Hanrahan/Holt. Since the Sox had Melancon in 2012, I left Holt out of the mix. But if you want to view the trade as Melancon for Hanrahan and the rest for Holt, you could add 5.2 WAR for Holt from 2013-16.
  • Webster and De La Rosa were traded for Miley, who gave us 2.5 WAR in 2015, and then was traded with Aro for Elias and Carson Smith.
Intangibles and LA's overall record aside, it's bad if you look at the trade from LA's overall perspective. As of 2017:
Gonzalez - 4+ seasons, 664 games, 10.3 WAR, $107 million. (2 years left at $45 million)
Becket - 2+ seasons, 35 starts, 2 WAR, $47 million.
Crawford - 4 seasons, 320 games, 2.8 WAR, $62 million.
Punto - 1+ season, 138 games, 2.5 WAR, $3 million.​

LA has been very competitive, but you have to wonder if they wouldn't have done better using the money on other acquisitions, which might have put them over the top.

Post trade:
Sox - 1 WS, 1 ALDS berth, 2 losing seasons.
LA - 2 NLCS berths, 2 NLDS berths.

I don't see any plausible scenario where the Sox come out ahead by standing pat in 2012. And it's mostly because of Crawford.
 

TheoShmeo

Skrub's sympathy case
Lifetime Member
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Jul 19, 2005
12,890
Boston, NY
This comment from an article today on weei.com encapsulates why I really hate the idea of having to root for this dude.

“It’s making sure whenever I come back, it’s to stay back, not to be back,” Price said. “I know that some people can’t understand that.”

I mean, fine, don't rush back, no problem. But why the silly shot at "some people"? So unnecessary....
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,731
This comment from an article today on weei.com encapsulates why I really hate the idea of having to root for this dude.

“It’s making sure whenever I come back, it’s to stay back, not to be back,” Price said. “I know that some people can’t understand that.”

I mean, fine, don't rush back, no problem. But why the silly shot at "some people"? So unnecessary....
First, we're not sure if we've seen the entire quote or even the context of the response. The local media has become really good at taking sound bites and removing the context behind them.

Second, Tomase, who for some reason still writes for WEEI, disparagingly referred to Price's approach to rehab as the "magic elbow" just one week ago. Can't necessarily blame Price for being a bit testy with another reporter from the same organization. Yes, he should probably learn to ignore the noise better. But it's also not right to put all the blame on Price either.
 

TheoShmeo

Skrub's sympathy case
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Jul 19, 2005
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First, we're not sure if we've seen the entire quote or even the context of the response. The local media has become really good at taking sound bites and removing the context behind them.

Second, Tomase, who for some reason still writes for WEEI, disparagingly referred to Price's approach to rehab as the "magic elbow" just one week ago. Can't necessarily blame Price for being a bit testy with another reporter from the same organization. Yes, he should probably learn to ignore the noise better. But it's also not right to put all the blame on Price either.
This isn't exactly an isolated testy quote from Price.

Between silly twitter wars with fans and his recent comments to Grossfield about how bad he had it last season (without putting any meat on the bone), there just seems to be a bit of a pattern.

You're right, maybe this was WEEI specific. But he has to know that his "some people" comment can be interpreted in lots of ways and to me it seems unnecessarily swarmy and condescending. Said differently, the idea that a pitcher should not rush back from injury isn't hard to grasp...for anyone.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2001
24,950
I think that you're taking this a bit too personally.

The way I read the "some people" line are the blowhards on sports radio and the newspapers and social media who think Price is being a wuss for not going out there right now and pitching. "The doctahs say his ahm is totally fine! He's just being a baby." And don't say that they're not out there, because you know that they are.

There is a pretty vocal swath of fans who don't get pitchers, or athletes in general. "When I was a kid Dick Radatz threw 500 innings one year and you never heard him complain!" or "Back in my day, pitchers made 45 starts and finished what they started!" If we hear this all the time, I would guess that Price and other MLBers do too and it's probably a little discouraging to tell people that that's not that way baseball is played anymore.

It's just a way of saying being patient. The dude is lined up for $200M over the next six or seven years, I'd rather not have him blow out his arm pitching to the Tigers in Ft. Myers so that Sully from Eastie can feel better about Price's toughness.

So, not being David Price, I would bet that these are the "some people" he's talking about. If you don't see yourself in those people, you have nothing to worry about.
 

TheoShmeo

Skrub's sympathy case
Lifetime Member
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Jul 19, 2005
12,890
Boston, NY
I don't think I'm actually personalizing this. I completely agree with Price that he should not rush back and think criticism for not doing that would be foolish. Hell, I expected him to go straight to the operating table after he met with Dr. Andrews and was quite surprised when he didn't. I was also a little alarmed when he picked up the ball before the trainers were ready for him to do so. In short, take your time and get right, David.

And I do not think he is directing his comment at me.

I just think he's being needlessly aggressive to whoever he is focused on. I mean, fans and mediots may eventually pull the "tough guy" routine with him but as of yet, I am not aware of that happening. Have I missed something? Maybe, as I am not in the Boston market. But if not, preemptively calling out the knuckle draggers just seems douchey to me.

I will admit that I am predisposed against Price. His combination of playoff ineffectiveness, rabbit ears syndrome, comments to Grossfield about his difficult first year in Boston (without much in the way of details) and the weirdness about fans only caring about him if he wins (as if Boston fans are somehow unique in this regard) collectively have me on alert for comments that fit the narrative, I admit.
 

drbretto

Member
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Apr 10, 2009
12,313
Concord, NH
How do you know how aggressive he was being if you read the text and didn't hear him talk? You put your own tone into it. I read it as perfectly benign and matter of fact.
 

redsoxstiff

hip-tossed Yogi in a bar fight
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Dec 10, 2002
6,772
No one could live up to the MONEY...of course, I was disappointed that he didn't rival Mickey Lolich...Maybe this year he wins 22 or more...but that ain't the MONEY...

I like him fine.
 

gryoung

Member
SoSH Member
I'm OK with having Price on the team. He's shows up every 5th day and delivers quality starts most of the time. He's in the top 25% of starters around the league (in my opinion).

It's just that I don't have much faith in him for the "big" games. When he pitched for TB against the Sox, I was never worried as I figured there was a good chance he wouldn't show up.
 
Nov 24, 2015
1,204
I kind of like that he preemptively calls out the knuckle draggers. They need to be called out.
Me too. There's an awful lot of emphasis put on "Toughness" by a lot of fans, and its both stupid and counterproductive.

I think TheoShmeo's opinion of Boston sports fans gives them way too much credit.