On a scale of Dante Bichette to David Ortiz...
- Thread starter Kenny F'ing Powers
- Start date
I'd prefer a pitcher based scale when rating a pitcher. I suggest a Matt Young-to-Pedro scale.
He's a good pitcher. A very good pitcher.
Last year Price was 4th in the league in Ks, 1st in the league in innings pitched, was 5th in the league in wins and has a WHIP of 1.20. This all after a very cold start.
Pitchers like Price are necessary to win divisions and get homefield. A winning team is more fun to watch than a losing team. While Price isn't Pedro he's certainly a 7 or 8 in my book.
Last year Price was 4th in the league in Ks, 1st in the league in innings pitched, was 5th in the league in wins and has a WHIP of 1.20. This all after a very cold start.
Pitchers like Price are necessary to win divisions and get homefield. A winning team is more fun to watch than a losing team. While Price isn't Pedro he's certainly a 7 or 8 in my book.
I don't hate Matt Young; I only hate people that try to defend the signing of Young, claiming that he wasn't as bad as his stats indicate.
His innings pitched capabilities didn't replace Mike Boddicker's, so f that guy.
It gave me hope that maybe he'd be good. Or at least OK. My hope was misplaced.
My hatred is colored by a story a friend of mine told me about Young being an asshat when he met him in a bar. Too long ago to recall the details.
Mike Lansing was the price to get Rolando Arrojo who would have been a good pitcher if they hadn't taken every opportunity to use him in situations where he'd be his worst self. Whatever you think about Lansing, the intent of getting him wasn't to get him, it was to get someone else.
The intent of getting Mike Benjamin wa to play him and he sucked. Couldn't hit. Couldn't field. Couldn't shave his goddamn face without giving himself dumbass looking sideburns.
The latter and they aren't really the same thing at all. Price is not Pedro and Pedro wasn't Pedro because of having a chip on his shoulder.
Where did anyone do this?
Small misgivings aside, I think we all are with some degrees of nuance.
Bingo, well said. I only care about what he says if it has a negative effect on his ability to pitch his best for the Boston Red Sox. I see a guy detrimentally focused on with what people think about him rather than throwing the baseball better.
Of course they're the same thing. They're different sides of the same coin. I didn't say Price was Pedro. I was saying athletes can turn things that slow you or I down into motivation. That and I remember a ton of parsing of Pedro's words because he could come off bitchy and irritated at times while playing too. As we look back with hindsight, it seems clear Pedro was effective at harnessing that anger into something positive. Maybe Price is the same. Maybe he's not.
The interview seems to be a big part of this discussion. To the extent others have expressed dismay over it, it has been tied to his makeup and what it will mean for him as a player. Some players' irritability and chip-on-the-shoulder attitude is a positive (Pedro, perhaps). Some it is not. We don't really know; casting it as a negative--or a positive, really--is just an assumption. Thus, silly.
Awesome. My point in putting it that way was to highlight what I felt was the most important part and where we can point to being sure we "know." He's a good player.
Lol. Uh, "where did anyone do this?" Right here? You see a guy "detrimentally focused on what people think... rather than throwing a baseball better." I'm calling bullshit on your ability--any of our's--to "see" that connection. He can't be focused on both? Or neither?
Last edited:
The dog-shaming in this thread is terrible. Come on, people: we're better than that, here.
I think Price is okay but he gives off a Lance Storm kind of vibe with how always seems to have the male equivalent of RBF. He's a 6 or 7 in my book, but I can see him getting to an 8 if he turns it around next season and beyond.
I think Price is okay but he gives off a Lance Storm kind of vibe with how always seems to have the male equivalent of RBF. He's a 6 or 7 in my book, but I can see him getting to an 8 if he turns it around next season and beyond.
I'm unwilling to speculate about how a player's media presence represents a deficiency in his mental-toughness/"clutch" abilities; I don't know the guy, won't judge him much on that stuff. Up to the point of a player's bad personal qualities doing significant harm to others, I don't care much. He's a very good pitcher for now. Voted 7-8. Could get to 9 with a sterling, lengthy postseason.
Lugo OPS'ed .885 in the '07 World Series. That alone precludes him from representing the floor for me. I'd put Renteria ahead of him for the purposes of this excercise (don't get me wrong, Lugo fucking sucked).
Mike Benjamin also looks a lot like our own AlNipper49, so there's a gigantic mark in the negative column.
Yes, really.
Carl Everett was a pretty good player who believed some stupid things and was a bit of an asshole due largely to a very short temper.
He gets treated like he's worse than serial wife-beater Wilfredo Cordero.
John Lackey is a great barometer to Price, if he performs even the biggest haters will tip their cap. If he doesn't, it'll be good riddance at the end. Or a little bit of thanks-but-good-riddance.
Lol it's almost like that's a great reason for a fan not to like a player.
He was a good player for only part of his time here and an overweight problematic trainwreck the rest. He was also accused of smacking his kids around which, while maybe that accusation had some unfairness, it is an understandable root for loathing and he's been arrested for domestic violence since.
And yeah, among the "stupid things" he believed was an extreme intolerance for homosexuals, even if they were teammates, which was expressed with a tough guy promise to "set them straight." Or he'd retire or some other dumbshit nonsense. I had gay friends even way back in the late 90s/ early 00s so if it's ok with you, I actually didn't like the guy and still feel like a fan who actually might not be a part of your mythical "problem." Whatever that means.
As to your last sentence, that's nonsense. He can be treated unfairly by Dan Shaughnessy and still be a loathsome asshole.
He was an asshole. Ras is not the cosmos.
Last edited:
Price is a 4-6 to me right now. That's nothing against him, but if the upper end of the scale is Pedro/Ortiz, then Price is nowhere near that.
He's here, so I'll root for him. But I won't, at this point, be crushed if he leaves. So far David Price has giving me a little disappointment, but hasn't really drawn my ire with his performance. He's been passable, barely. Still, he hasn't endeared himself to me either.
As for Dante Bichette, I was never a fan, but while his presence may be a good hallmark of semi-recent under-performing Red Sox teams, he's by no means the nadir of franchise talent. He's not even the worst of those 2000-2001 teams, which featured Jose Offerman, Craig Grebeck, Mike Lansing, Mike Benjamin, Jose Offerman, Rico Brogna, Ed Sprague, Manny Alexander, Gary Gaetti, Bernard Gilkey, Jose Offerman, Shea Hillenbrand, and Jose Offerman. Not to mention Jose Offerman.
He's here, so I'll root for him. But I won't, at this point, be crushed if he leaves. So far David Price has giving me a little disappointment, but hasn't really drawn my ire with his performance. He's been passable, barely. Still, he hasn't endeared himself to me either.
As for Dante Bichette, I was never a fan, but while his presence may be a good hallmark of semi-recent under-performing Red Sox teams, he's by no means the nadir of franchise talent. He's not even the worst of those 2000-2001 teams, which featured Jose Offerman, Craig Grebeck, Mike Lansing, Mike Benjamin, Jose Offerman, Rico Brogna, Ed Sprague, Manny Alexander, Gary Gaetti, Bernard Gilkey, Jose Offerman, Shea Hillenbrand, and Jose Offerman. Not to mention Jose Offerman.
He is, in fact, an asshole.
He does, in fact, get treated worse around here than Wilfredo Cordero. Back when he was current events, I put up a poll about who people least wanted on their team including Carl Everett and three guys who beat up their wives/girlfriends. Everett, by the way, wasn't accused of beating his kids, but not doing enough to stop his wife from beating their kids.
Also, I am, in fact, the cosmos.
I had a slightly bigger thing for Scherzer the previous winter then I did for Price, but at the end of the day I still feel feel taking the flyer on Price was a best overall way for *this* team to allocate it's money at the time. Especially in comparison to holding the line on some "no mega contracts on a SP" concept....but then being perfectly OK when turning around to spend 80% of that on fairly wreckless and reach'y stuff like Panda/Castillo.
That said I'd probably go a 7 on that scale. Don't particularly care for his personality, and as much as know I shouldn't read that much into SSS, I just can't help but look at him as more the guy I'll bank on getting me there then the starter I actually trust on the mound for that one win or go home game.
That said I'd probably go a 7 on that scale. Don't particularly care for his personality, and as much as know I shouldn't read that much into SSS, I just can't help but look at him as more the guy I'll bank on getting me there then the starter I actually trust on the mound for that one win or go home game.
I'm not sure why there should have been much of a price for Arrojo.
He had a great rookie season at age 32, but then proceeded to suck with TB in 1999, and was one of the worst pitchers in the league in 2000, when we traded for him. He was certainly not worth throwing $6.5M away on Mike Lansing. It was a terrible trade, both in hindsight and in foresight.
At least arrojo gave us one of Ben Afflecks few quality moments of not acting.
I didn't think the scale was about talent. Lansing seemed to be miserable all the time, even on the rare occasions he had success. Bichette actually believed his Colorado numbers were real.
I didn't think the scale was about talent. Lansing seemed to be miserable all the time, even on the rare occasions he had success. Bichette actually believed his Colorado numbers were real.
Benjamin was a Jimy Williams binkie. Much like Darren Lewis. At least those guys seemed to know their limits. But there ought to be a category of overly-entitled and mouthy mediocrities; Merloni, Hillenbrand.
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned AJP. Short memories.
There's a sheep out there that still has Hillenbrand flashbacks.
Honestly, the race for the worst manager of the last half century or so is a hard one. Jimy Williams may have been deliberately trying to lose games. Grady Little made the single worst managerial decision in the history of the game. Butch Hobson might be worse than both of them. Kevin Kennedy. Bobby Valentine.
See, but you're not. This is a great example why not. An interesting post would have been insight into why you feel like Carl Everett got a raw deal. Instead we got, as usual, an adolescent declaration.
Carl Everett was accused of beating his kids. ("Accusations that Carl Everett physically abused Shawna surfaced on Wednesday when child-care workers in the Mets' family room at Shea Stadium noticed bruises and welts on the girl.") Years later he was arrested for holding a gun to his wife's head. Cool story about the poll.
That adolescent declaration was a joke and you know it. The cool story about the poll was the insight about how he got a raw deal.
Do you really want to rehash all this shit?
Shaughnessy trashes him on the way into town. Talk radio follows. How do people remember his fight with Ron Kulpa? They call it the "head butt" game but when you watch the video, it's not even clear that there's contact and if there is, it's with the bill of his cap and accidental. People went nuts. People wanted him dumped for nothing. It was ridiculous.
But you know all this. All this is ancient history.
Now if you'll excuse me, Neil DeGrasse Tyson is here with a film crew.
Guys, guys, guys... how soon have we forgotten Jim Leyritz. He checks so many of the "I really don't want to root for that guy" boxes. He was a generic late 90's ex-slugger who was mediocre enough to keep getting at-bats (see: Bichette, Husky, Canseco, Gilkey, Sprague, Brogna). Plus, he was a former Yankee hero. AND he had a hideous batting stance. And was just generally hideous.
Oh yeah, and he has a gross criminal history.
Oh yeah, and he has a gross criminal history.
Why does/did Canseco get so much flack over his performance here? He was really damn good over his two year stint in Boston.
1995: .306/.378/.556/.933 OPS+137
1996: .289/.400/.589/.989 OPS+146
There's a variety of reasons to dislike Canseco - but his offensive performance as a member of the Boston Red Sox isn't one of them.
I guess Canseco wasn't all that bad when he was here. But in general, he was an expensive DH that was often injured and went 0-for the one playoff series he was involved in.
Now that I'm looking back at that 1995 ALDS... why in the world did the Sox (86-58) play the Indians (100-44), while the Mariners (79-66) got to take on the Wild Card-winning Yankees (79-65)? Why didn't the Indians play the Yankees? Seems nuts that the two worst teams got to face each other.
Now that I'm looking back at that 1995 ALDS... why in the world did the Sox (86-58) play the Indians (100-44), while the Mariners (79-66) got to take on the Wild Card-winning Yankees (79-65)? Why didn't the Indians play the Yankees? Seems nuts that the two worst teams got to face each other.
It was one of the first seasons of the wild card. The playoff matchups were set in advance; AL east winner was set to play AL central winner, assuming wild card was from AL east.
Canseco's influence in Boston helped Clemens find success at Toronto and New York, so that's one reason for hating him.
As for Carl Everett, his offensive numbers collapsed after that infamous incident with Ron Kulpa, and become known as a clubhouse cancer to boot.
I was never a Leyritz fan, but I'm not sure he's the best example of what you're talking about - we traded with TX for Leyritz and Buford in the offseason. Leyritz then hit very well for us as a DH for half a season (98) before he was traded to the Padres for a bunch of spare parts. I don't recall the trade circumstances, but I seem to remember a clutch home run early in the season.
All his legal problems started in 2007 - those I remember much better. But they couldn't have affected fan enjoyment when he was actually playing for the team.
Ramiro Mendoza - now there was an embedded Yankee.
PS - Speaking of (retroactively) Embedded Yankees, I was curious to learn, clicking through stats, that Roger Clemens, during his tenure with the Sox, was out-WAR'd during a season by another pitcher 12 times. (One pitcher did it twice.) What actually surprised me were the names of the pitchers that accomplished the feat. If I had to guess, blind, I'd probably have come up with 3 of them, and guessed 4 more incorrectly.
Anyone want to try their luck?
Anyone want to try their luck?
Bruce Hurst
Mike Boddicker
Erik Hanson
Tim Wakefield
Jeff Reardon
Bob Stanley
Oil Can Boyd
(Off the top of my head)
Mike Boddicker
Erik Hanson
Tim Wakefield
Jeff Reardon
Bob Stanley
Oil Can Boyd
(Off the top of my head)
Tricky, right?
84
Bruce Hurst
Bob Ojeda
Al Nipper
85
Oil Can Boyd
Bob Stanley
Bob Ojeda
93
Danny Darwin
Frank Viola
Aaron Sele
95
Tim Wakefield
Erik Hanson
Stan Belinda
Bruce Hurst
Bob Ojeda
Al Nipper
85
Oil Can Boyd
Bob Stanley
Bob Ojeda
93
Danny Darwin
Frank Viola
Aaron Sele
95
Tim Wakefield
Erik Hanson
Stan Belinda
Interesting that all 12 times were in only 4 seasons, and only 2 seasons after he really established himself.
Hmmmmm...so you're saying having an injury-marred season makes it harder to accumulate WAR?
I'd throw in a large number of the '00 and '01 Sox I hated having on the roster:
Lansing, Bichette, sprague, Berry, Brogna...
And Jimy Williams, trolling us with his 'bat Andy Sheets third cause that's where Valentin, the usual 3baseman hits' lineups.
Lansing, Bichette, sprague, Berry, Brogna...
And Jimy Williams, trolling us with his 'bat Andy Sheets third cause that's where Valentin, the usual 3baseman hits' lineups.
Id this thread has turned into all time most hated Sox player, then:
Carl Crawford has to get into the starting lineup. He performed horribly and by all reports complained incessantly that the cause was anything but himself, it was the fans, it was the media, it was where he batted in the order, he then capped off the biggest regular season collapse in baseball history by dropping a ball 50% of this board would have caught even if we had been quantum leap transported onto the field just seconds before the play. Then add to the mopey joy sucking demeanour he dragged himself around in the entire time he played here and you have a horribly unlikable Red Sox player. I mean closeups of his face during the game exuded sadness and sulkiness so much you would switch the channel to the Igmar Bergman film festival, or crack open a Russian classic novel just to cheer yourself up. I have thought of this a long time and the only thing Carl Crawford could have done to make those closeups of his sad millionaire face more irksome would be to literally wipe his tears with wads of cash.
Carl Crawford has to get into the starting lineup. He performed horribly and by all reports complained incessantly that the cause was anything but himself, it was the fans, it was the media, it was where he batted in the order, he then capped off the biggest regular season collapse in baseball history by dropping a ball 50% of this board would have caught even if we had been quantum leap transported onto the field just seconds before the play. Then add to the mopey joy sucking demeanour he dragged himself around in the entire time he played here and you have a horribly unlikable Red Sox player. I mean closeups of his face during the game exuded sadness and sulkiness so much you would switch the channel to the Igmar Bergman film festival, or crack open a Russian classic novel just to cheer yourself up. I have thought of this a long time and the only thing Carl Crawford could have done to make those closeups of his sad millionaire face more irksome would be to literally wipe his tears with wads of cash.