Wait until they sign Trevor BauerI'm annoyed that they would even meet with German. If they sign him, I'm out on the Sox until he's gone.
Wait until they sign Trevor BauerI'm annoyed that they would even meet with German. If they sign him, I'm out on the Sox until he's gone.
Yawn. My monocle didn’t fall off when I wrote that. But if a guy is repeatedly trying to bend the rules with a foreign substances to cover up his mediocre performance, that’s a relevant data point to me.Pro athletes cheating? I don’t believe it.
I’m sure you feel the same way about all cheaters. Manny, Papi, etcYawn. My monocle didn’t fall off when I wrote that. But if a guy is repeatedly trying to bend the rules with a foreign substances to cover up his mediocre performance, that’s a relevant data point to me.
Manny was a cheater. Big Papi was not. Please get your facts straight.I’m sure you feel the same way about all cheaters. Manny, Papi, etc
Now let’s not get too worked up about who took a bunch of female fertility drugs and who didn’t, we’ve all had some crazy weekends.Manny was a cheater. Big Papi was not. Please get your facts straight.
I feel the same way about all domestic violence abusers who are mediocre talents and who have been caught cheating, yes.I’m sure you feel the same way about all cheaters. Manny, Papi, etc
I've been waiting to see if his name would ever come up in this thread.Wait until they sign Trevor Bauer
Pay one of them more than he wants but let it be known he has 24 hours for the super deal or it comes off the table.This is a great idea and all, but if the rest of the front line starters are waiting for Yamamoto to set the market (and that certainly seems to be the case), how do you propose getting one to sign earlier?
This, right here, is what the Sox should be doing. To your point it sort of breaks the trade machine, but if they’d do it for some group of reasonable prospects, I’m in.So is this where BTV kinda breaks down? I can't imagine the Brewers trading away Yelich, Burnes, and Adames for almost nothing. If they are willing, it's awfully tempting. Like you said, Yelich is still a good hitter. Then, WHEN we add another top tier pitcher we're starting to look like something.
Sox don’t have the leverage to be able to make that threat stick, though. The player and his agent will call their bluff. I don’t see how they can create a sense of urgency to sign now, nor really why they would want to.Pay one of them more than he wants but let it be known he has 24 hours for the super deal or it comes off the table.
Dealing Verdugo opens up a spot for Yelich...This, right here, is what the Sox should be doing. To your point it sort of breaks the trade machine, but if they’d do it for some group of reasonable prospects, I’m in.
Burnes and Adames both fill desperate needs. And part of the reason for a big market team to stockpile prospects is to trade them to a team like Milwaukee.
And the trade this reminds me of is the Beckett/Lowell trade. 2023’s Yelich isn’t the same as 2005’s Mike Lowell, but there are similarities.
Even if the Sox can only get Burnes and Yelich I’d still do a version and the trade. We desperately need more high end talent, especially in the rotation, and should have the financial flexibility to handle Yelich’s salary and find him plenty of ABs in RF, LF, and DH.
edit: Whoops I see others got to Beckett/Lowell faster.
Not to mention that when it doesn't work and YY likely signs somewhere else the Sox might still want to, you know, try to sign one of these guys. Will those offers have a deadline too?Sox don’t have the leverage to be able to make that threat stick, though. The player and his agent will call their bluff. I don’t see how they can create a sense of urgency to sign now, nor really why they would want to.
Sox don’t have the leverage to be able to make that threat stick, though. The player and his agent will call their bluff. I don’t see how they can create a sense of urgency to sign now, nor really why they would want to.
The scenario where a team might be able to pull that move is very rare and this isn't remotely close to that.Not to mention that when it doesn't work and YY likely signs somewhere else the Sox might still want to, you know, try to sign one of these guys. Will those offers have a deadline too?
It's laughable how much some people think it's just a matter of imposing one's will to get players to sign, and if players sign elsewhere it is only because the team didn't try hard enough or something.
I might take a flier on him at a minimum price. The rape allegations against him were apparently proven to be false, and he appears to want to return to MLB based on his social media, so I'd take a gamble. I do think the media attention probably wouldn't be worth the chaos it might cause, but on a skill basis he is intriguing.Wait until they sign Trevor Bauer
This is Boston, old sport. I can hear the yowling now.I might take a flier on him at a minimum price. The rape allegations against him were apparently proven to be false, and he appears to want to return to MLB based on his social media, so I'd take a gamble. I do think the media attention probably wouldn't be worth the chaos it might cause, but on a skill basis he is intriguing.
Do you remember Parcells's favorite line about trying versus willing oneself over the line? "I don't want to hear about the labor pains, just bring me the baby."Not to mention that when it doesn't work and YY likely signs somewhere else the Sox might still want to, you know, try to sign one of these guys. Will those offers have a deadline too?
It's laughable how much some people think it's just a matter of imposing one's will to get players to sign, and if players sign elsewhere it is only because the team didn't try hard enough or something.
I think a situation like this COULD work with Boras, but not in a "take it or leave it / ultimatum" style.The scenario where a team might be able to pull that move is very rare and this isn't remotely close to that.
As with German, I'd be out on the Sox at least for at least as long as Bauer was on the team. Probably longer. This may be calling for the "there are dozens of us!" meme (though, frankly, I think it would be gross to post it in response to someone saying they care about this subject), but I'm not the only one who won't root for a team of domestic and sexual abusers.Every time Trevor Bauer is back in the news, people forget what we actually know about him and claim that by virtue of him not facing criminal penalties Bauer is somehow being punished without due process.
I just don’t get it. He’s a guy who, by his own admission, likes to beat up/choke out women during sex. For a private business to decide they don’t want to be associated with that isn’t an example of them destroying his career or denying him any kind of due process. It’s simply Bauer reaping the consequence of his own actions.
So much of American culture, so much of sports culture, is filled with toxic masculinity. My guess there are a lot of abusive men populating big time sports, whose abuses never come to light. Of course having confirmation that there is domestic/sexual abuser on the team is its own thing, I suppose. But my bet is the Bauer's of the world are a bit less anomalous than we'd like to believe.Reposting the following quote, and I think (thankfully) that there's no chance the Red Sox want any part of Bauer and his baggage.
As with German, I'd be out on the Sox at least for at least as long as Bauer was on the team. Probably longer. This may be calling for the "there are dozens of us!" meme (though, frankly, I think it would be gross to post it in response to someone saying they care about this subject), but I'm not the only one who won't root for a team of domestic and sexual abusers.
This is unquestionably true. It doesn’t excuse ignoring abuse when it comes to light*.So much of American culture, so much of sports culture, is filled with toxic masculinity. My guess there are a lot of abusive men populating big time sports, whose abuses never come to light. Of course having confirmation that there is domestic/sexual abuser on the team is its own thing, I suppose. But my bet is the Bauer's of the world are a bit less anomalous than we'd like to believe.
Of course, not all domestic and sexual abusers' behavior has come to light. I appreciate @Average Reds's addendum, because otherwise this would be a weird thing to post.So much of American culture, so much of sports culture, is filled with toxic masculinity. My guess there are a lot of abusive men populating big time sports, whose abuses never come to light. Of course having confirmation that there is domestic/sexual abuser on the team is its own thing, I suppose. But my bet is the Bauer's of the world are a bit less anomalous than we'd like to believe.
I agree to both points but oddly I’m 99% sure it happened with a Boras client and the Red Sox just last year (Masa).The scenario where a team might be able to pull that move is very rare and this isn't remotely close to that.
Honestly it's probably smart to not just spend for the sake of spending, but that won't go over well.Jared Carrabis dropped a new podcast this morning. On the pod, he mentioned that someone that he personally trusts who is connected to the team texted him saying that the Red Sox are making a hard push for Yamamoto. If they are unable to sign Yamamoto, however, they are unlikely to spend big on anyone else.
I take this to mean that if they miss on Yamamoto, they will pursue pitching through trades and short-term deals.
Take this for what you will.
Truth. Breslow didn’t deserve the expectations Warner set by his flippant comments. He put him in a corner. Horrible look on his part.Honestly it's probably smart to not just spend for the sake of spending, but that won't go over well.
This is unquestionably true. It doesn’t excuse ignoring abuse when it comes to light*.
*I am building on your comment, not insinuating that you think we should ignore it.
And if I can build a bit further... Right, wrong or indifferent, Bauer's sexual habits are now known, the cat's out of the bag. I get and understand that this is a thing for some though I have no earthly idea why. So let's suppose for just a moment that this was mutual behavior between two consenting adults. A baseball team has it easy as far as not hiring a guy like this. There's no job application to refuse, lots of teams pass on a lot of guys for any variety of reasons. No real fear of an individual team being sued for discrimination I would think. IMO no real risk to a franchise by not signing him. On the other hand, what's he been found guilty of? Why not take a chance? Well, this sort of behavior might not set well with some members of the team and more likely it doesn't set well with an even broader segment of the team's fan base and community where the team plays. Does that bring any sort of boycott, any sort of long lasting black mark against the franchise? Is there any reason to think that his private life changes in any way after what he's done has been in a way validated? So you sign him on and he finds another consenting partner. Perhaps things extend past the "consent", or perhaps he's now made himself a target for future lawsuits or worse yet someone dies during this "consensual" act. Do you really want that stench on your team? Is the talent worth that organisational risk? Hard fucking pass for me.Of course, not all domestic and sexual abusers' behavior has come to light. I appreciate @Average Reds's addendum, because otherwise this would be a weird thing to post.
You make that sound like a bad thing. I’d certainly yowl.This is Boston, old sport. I can hear the yowling now.
I'll bet on the under.There were rumors a few weeks back that Montgomery was looking for 8 years, which seems crazy, but if there are enough bidders someone will offer.
I appreciate your post, but I think the following post by @Rovin Romine in the Bauer thread is useful to consider in relation to the BDSM/consenting adults aspect of Bauer's defense* (particularly the bolded):Right, wrong or indifferent, Bauer's sexual habits are now known, the cat's out of the bag. I get and understand that this is a thing for some though I have no earthly idea why. So let's suppose for just a moment that this was mutual behavior between two consenting adults.
This is a decent overall write-up. The analysis is after the transcript parsing (which isn't very useful IMO). https://www.legalaffairsandtrials.com/p/never-said-that-i-wanted-to-be-punched
I think the article (and real world) take-away point for me is there was enough credible testimony at the MLB arbitration hearing to suspend Bauer under the MLB domestic violence policy. There are multiple women (4) who all seem to say (more or less) that he choked them out and violated whatever boundaries were set.
Two other points which I think are interesting are:
1) Bauer went on the offensive to try to reclaim his career. He was the one who civilly sued Hill first (defamation) rather than the other way around. For a guy with what must have been a $10M war-chest, he could have made this go away in multiple ways. But his entrenchment, I think, has not helped him at all.
2) The BDSM community is not exactly a small one. And this leads to four sub-points:
a) Actual weird shit (from a mainstream perspective) goes on between actual consenting adults every single day. And there's not a huge spiral of criminal and civil lit or accusations that erupts from this.b) It would be relatively easy for Trevor Bauer to safely engage with this community.c) If Trevor Bauer really were into BDSM or even "safe rough sex". . .he's completely incompetent. Four strikes, one could say.d) So while it's possible Bauer is simply an epicly incompetent fuck-up in that sphere, it's more likely he's doing something else.A similar subset of arguments can be applied to the idea that plenty of athletes sleep around and don't seem to have the same problems that Bauer does. So, just really really bad luck on his part? Or maybe something else?
How does that work with the tax? Taken to an extreme...say they want to sign Marcus Stroman to a 3 year deal for 75 million. Surely they can't sign him to a deal for 11 years for 78 million, where he makes 25 mil the first three years and then 500k the next 8, with a player opt out after year 3, and have it only count for 7.1 mil (78/11) under the tax for just 3 years? The balance of the 75 mil would get applied retroactively, or spread over the next 8 years?Breslow is going to have to structure the contract in a way Yamamoto can’t turn it down. 10/375 with an opt out after 5 years. Front load it where he makes more money in the first five years. Trade clause is player preference.
Is he really running the team according to public approval? I really hope not.Truth. Breslow didn’t deserve the expectations Warner set by his flippant comments. He put him in a corner. Horrible look on his part.
I believe that AAV would be recalculated after an opt-out and applied retroactively, and they'd owe any luxury tax that might be due because of that recalculation. If it weren't the case, I think we'd see a lot more instances of teams doing exactly that.How does that work with the tax? Taken to an extreme...say they want to sign Marcus Stroman to a 3 year deal for 75 million. Surely they can't sign him to a deal for 11 years for 78 million, where he makes 25 mil the first three years and then 500k the next 8, with a player opt out after year 3, and have it only count for 7.1 mil (78/11) under the tax for just 3 years? The rest would get applied retroactively, or spread over the next 8 years?
It wouldn’t be to such an extreme. He earns $225 million of the $375 million over the first five years. Good chance Yamamoto walks if he pitches up to his ability, but you are getting him at his prime age.How does that work with the tax? Taken to an extreme...say they want to sign Marcus Stroman to a 3 year deal for 75 million. Surely they can't sign him to a deal for 11 years for 78 million, where he makes 25 mil the first three years and then 500k the next 8, with a player opt out after year 3, and have it only count for 7.1 mil (78/11) under the tax for just 3 years? The balance of the 75 mil would get applied retroactively, or spread over the next 8 years?
Yes, I will say hard pass for me to.And if I can build a bit further... Right, wrong or indifferent, Bauer's sexual habits are now known, the cat's out of the bag. I get and understand that this is a thing for some though I have no earthly idea why. So let's suppose for just a moment that this was mutual behavior between two consenting adults. A baseball team has it easy as far as not hiring a guy like this. There's no job application to refuse, lots of teams pass on a lot of guys for any variety of reasons. No real fear of an individual team being sued for discrimination I would think. IMO no real risk to a franchise by not signing him. On the other hand, what's he been found guilty of? Why not take a chance? Well, this sort of behavior might not set well with some members of the team and more likely it doesn't set well with an even broader segment of the team's fan base and community where the team plays. Does that bring any sort of boycott, any sort of long lasting black mark against the franchise? Is there any reason to think that his private life changes in any way after what he's done has been in a way validated? So you sign him on and he finds another consenting partner. Perhaps things extend past the "consent", or perhaps he's now made himself a target for future lawsuits or worse yet someone dies during this "consensual" act. Do you really want that stench on your team? Is the talent worth that organisational risk? Hard fucking pass for me.
This stuff should really start being moved into some other forums. I think Hannah Gadsby is a humorless turd personally but I also don't disagree with her completely. This is all a case-by-case situation and I don't think it should ever be- someone did something bad he/she (yeah "she" too) should be forever cancelled. It's terrible slippery slope stuff.Yes, I will say hard pass for me to.
My initial response is just that being a fan of major athletics means being a fan of some toxic dudes whether you realize it or not - it is endemic to the culture but hopefully changing (I mean, the homophobia alone). There is a broader philosophical issue of enjoying the work of entertainers/athletes/artists who behaved badly/immorally in their personal lives. John Lennon is an admitted batterer. Picasso is know to have physically abused and certainly emotionally abused woman. MLK Jr is a known philanderer (https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/06/04/how-to-make-sense-of-the-shocking-new-mlk-documents-227042/). Should we reject their work? Not go to museums that show it, or platforms that play the music, or listen to their speeches? Maybe we should reject their work, I don't know - it's a difficult question. The comedian Hannah Gadsby's show Nanette addresses this issue and she is vociferous that we SHOULD reject the work of these people (well worth watching this show, even if you wind up disagreeing - highly compelling).
Of course there is a difference between folks who are actively abusive today, and "historical" figures. Though where is the line drawn - how far back do we need to go to overlook repugnant personal behavior of artists/athletes/entertainers/public figures and still choose to enjoy their public work?
I mean, to be fair, it depends on what they can trade and what "not spending big" means.Jared Carrabis dropped a new podcast this morning. On the pod, he mentioned that someone that he personally trusts who is connected to the team texted him saying that the Red Sox are making a hard push for Yamamoto. If they are unable to sign Yamamoto, however, they are unlikely to spend big on anyone else.
I take this to mean that if they miss on Yamamoto, they will pursue pitching through trades and short-term deals.
Take this for what you will.
yes, belongs in a different thread, you're right - apologies for getting off course!This stuff should really start being moved into some other forums. I think Hannah Gadsby is a humorless turd personally but I also don't disagree with her completely. This is all a case-by-case situation and I don't think it should ever be- someone did something bad he/she (yeah "she" too) should be forever cancelled. It's terrible slippery slope stuff.
There's also the issue of the posting fee, which is based on the total contract value. You're not going to pay his former team $50 million and then give him another $45 million a year for three seasons just to have him walk away. He'd have to be prime Pedro to be worth nearly $200 million for three years of work. And he's not going to be prime Pedro.I have no idea what will happen with Yamamoto, but it is interesting to think about whether the deal he signs will include some type of a short term opt out. Let's say he inks a double-digit year contract that takes him into his late 30's but there is an opt out after year 3.
He would be 28-29 at that point, which is around where most elite pitchers come due for their first huge contract.
Say those first 3 years are All Star caliber, Cy Young finalist seasons. He then gets offered another 10+ year deal in the 3-400 million range.
Of course, he could have one injury that costs him most of a season, or there is an up-and-down 3 year period where he flashes Ace potential and numbers but does not totally put it all together.
Maybe who ever signs him frontloads the first 3 or 4 years, something in the 40-45mil AAV range to get him to bite.
What I am getting at is there are so many permutations that can happen, and I am sure the teams involved at this point have considered several options, and the real negotiating that is happening is about a potential opt out, AAV per year, etc.
As I think about it, maybe this has been the main sticking point so far, and why this process has languished for so long. There are maybe a dozen people in the whole world who know what it will take to get a signature.
I'm not defending Bauer. I framed my post in that manner because at least one member here said that they would consider signing him. I have no idea if this behavior was consensual or not and don't care to speculate one way or the other, but will say that forced and/or violent sexual acts of any sort evoke a lot of negative emotions. I can't understand why anyone would take or allow sex in that manner.I appreciate your post, but I think the following post by @Rovin Romine in the Bauer thread is useful to consider in relation to the BDSM/consenting adults aspect of Bauer's defense* (particularly the bolded):
* Calling it Bauer's defense to note that it isn't your defense of Bauer, because you framed your post as "Let's suppose" rather than stating as fact that this really was simply mutual behavior between two consenting adults.
Fuck no. Like, unequivocally, fuck no. He hasn’t pitched in two years, he has more than one single accuser if i remember correctly, and has a long and well documented history of being an insufferable, arrogant shithead.I might take a flier on him at a minimum price. The rape allegations against him were apparently proven to be false, and he appears to want to return to MLB based on his social media, so I'd take a gamble. I do think the media attention probably wouldn't be worth the chaos it might cause, but on a skill basis he is intriguing.
No, or at least mostly not. It does however play right into the hands of any agent if they know you’re loaded and desperate. That sounds like a country record.Is he really running the team according to public approval? I really hope not.
Just to be clear, I know you weren't defending him and I tried to say as much (though probably inartfully). I took no issue with your post, just wanted to contextualize Bauer's consenting adults defense with RR's post.I'm not defending Bauer. I framed my post in that manner because at least one member here said that they would consider signing him. I have no idea if this behavior was consensual or not and don't care to speculate one way or the other, but will say that forced and/or violent sexual acts of any sort evoke a lot of negative emotions. I can't understand why anyone would take or allow sex in that manner.
He hasn't pitched in MLB in a couple years. He did throw 156 innings in Japan last season (and fared okay).Fuck no. Like, unequivocally, fuck no. He hasn’t pitched in two years, he has more than one single accuser if i remember correctly, and has a long and well documented history of being an insufferable, arrogant shithead.