Noah's Arc: Song back, assigned to GVL.

Yo La Tengo

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If I was the Phillies, I'd consider putting Song on the 60 day IL, remove him from the 26 man roster, have him spend this year getting in to pitching shape including a "rehab stint" in the minors, he'll get paid the major league salary, and then see if he is ready to contribute for at least 90 games in the majors next year:

"A Rule 5 Draft pick can be placed on the Major League injured list, but he must be active for a minimum of 90 days to avoid being subject to the aforementioned roster restrictions in the next campaign."
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Noted.....and agreed......

Allow me to ask the question a different way.

Why place Song on the 15 day IL instead of the 60 day IL?
Because he's not hurt that badly?

60-day IL means he's shut down a minimum of 30 days (can't do more than 30 days of a rehab assignment). That's probably not what they want if they are trying to get him back in pitching shape.

Edit to add, I don't think they can add him to the 60-day IL since that would remove him from the 40-man roster (albeit temporarily).
 

greenmountains

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I did a quick research to find out what's happened in April, and he's still on the 15 day DL.

How long do the Phillies get to just let Song be on the 15 day DL? At what point do the Sox raise there hand in protest to MLB? If I understand correctly, the rules are different if he goes on the 60 Day DL.
 

trekfan55

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I did a quick research to find out what's happened in April, and he's still on the 15 day DL.

How long do the Phillies get to just let Song be on the 15 day DL? At what point do the Sox raise there hand in protest to MLB? If I understand correctly, the rules are different if he goes on the 60 Day DL.
Maybe the rules have changed but I think he needs to be on the active roster for a year. And if he goes on rehab the clock starts.

I remember Adam Stern had to be on the active roster for the first month of the next season because he spent time on the DL (as it was called then).
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I did a quick research to find out what's happened in April, and he's still on the 15 day DL.

How long do the Phillies get to just let Song be on the 15 day DL? At what point do the Sox raise there hand in protest to MLB? If I understand correctly, the rules are different if he goes on the 60 Day DL.
My understanding is that he can remain on the IL all year and the Sox can't do a thing. But he has to be active and on the 26-man roster for a minimum of 90 days before the Phillies can call him entirely theirs (free to option to the minors, etc). And that 90 days can extend into next season if he's on the IL for too long this year.
 

Yo La Tengo

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My understanding is that he can remain on the IL all year and the Sox can't do a thing. But he has to be active and on the 26-man roster for a minimum of 90 days before the Phillies can call him entirely theirs (free to option to the minors, etc). And that 90 days can extend into next season if he's on the IL for too long this year.
I think this is right. The Phillies can create, essentially, a year long rehab stint for him since he hasn't played competitive baseball in so long. I anticipate at some point, if they haven't already, the Philly will move him to the 60 day IL and free up a roster spot. And Song gets paid the majors minimum salary? So, a win for everyone but the Red Sox.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I think this is right. The Phillies can create, essentially, a year long rehab stint for him since he hasn't played competitive baseball in so long. I anticipate at some point, if they haven't already, the Philly will move him to the 60 day IL and free up a roster spot. And Song gets paid the majors minimum salary? So, a win for everyone but the Red Sox.
Rehab only in the sense that he can throw on the side and build up arm strength he may have lost while serving. He won't get much if any game experience while he's on the IL. Not unless the Phillies want to play the game of letting him rehab for 29 days, then shut down for two weeks due to "re-injury" or a new "injury" in order to reset his rehab clock, then start over. That might be enough to prompt accusations of impropriety though.
 

geoflin

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This is actually pretty meaningless, he's been on the IL since the season began which is already over 50 days so he's still eligible to come back sometime during the next 2 weeks. It's just a procedural move.
 

ShoelessJoe

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I realize this marks me as a hopelessly naive rube, but isn’t there anything the Red Sox can do about this? I suppose there’s a remote possibility this is on the level, but it seems far more likely it’s horseshit chicanery.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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I realize this marks me as a hopelessly naive rube, but isn’t there anything the Red Sox can do about this? I suppose there’s a remote possibility this is on the level, but it seems far more likely it’s horseshit chicanery.
I don't think so. I mean I guess they can tell Rob Manfred and the League Offices, but I suspect that they already know what's happening. The fact is, if DD can pull this off; he exploited a loophole (that may close after this) and pulled the wool over Chaim's eyes. It happens, you lick your wounds and move on.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Didn't the Red Sox do this a while back with a Rule 5 guy? Adam Stern maybe? I remember him starting the season on the IL (legit injury), came back late in the year then had to stay up with the big club for the first few weeks of the following season to fulfill the Rule 5 obligations so the Sox could keep him.

The Phillies are doing nothing nefarious. Especially if, you know, Song really has a back injury. Last report I saw was that Song was throwing to hitters at the Phillies' spring training facility. Next step is probably a rehab assignment and then activation.
 

Sad Sam Jones

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What should they do about it? The Phillies are doing nothing wrong and nothing a number of other teams haven't done over the years, except in this case, everyone knew going in that the guy wouldn't be conditioned to pitch a full season. They still have to carry him on the active MLB roster for the requisite number of days at some point. It's also still his best avenue to ever being a major league pitcher.
 

mauf

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What should they do about it? The Phillies are doing nothing wrong and nothing a number of other teams haven't done over the years, except in this case, everyone knew going in that the guy wouldn't be conditioned to pitch a full season. They still have to carry him on the active MLB roster for the requisite number of days at some point. It's also still his best avenue to ever being a major league pitcher.
The bolded part is key. Song has nothing to gain by forcing the Phillies’ hand, which likely lands him in Worcester with an organization that thought Kaleb Ort was a better use of a 40-man spot. So long as Song says he’s injured, there’s nothing to be done.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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The bolded part is key. Song has nothing to gain by forcing the Phillies’ hand, which likely lands him in Worcester with an organization that thought Kaleb Ort was a better use of a 40-man spot. So long as Song says he’s injured, there’s nothing to be done.
If he were in the Sox organization right now, I doubt he'd be in Worcester. Salem or Greenville probably. Maybe Portland. Assuming his back was up to it at all.
 

trekfan55

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Didn't the Red Sox do this a while back with a Rule 5 guy? Adam Stern maybe? I remember him starting the season on the IL (legit injury), came back late in the year then had to stay up with the big club for the first few weeks of the following season to fulfill the Rule 5 obligations so the Sox could keep him.

The Phillies are doing nothing nefarious. Especially if, you know, Song really has a back injury. Last report I saw was that Song was throwing to hitters at the Phillies' spring training facility. Next step is probably a rehab assignment and then activation.
What should they do about it? The Phillies are doing nothing wrong and nothing a number of other teams haven't done over the years, except in this case, everyone knew going in that the guy wouldn't be conditioned to pitch a full season. They still have to carry him on the active MLB roster for the requisite number of days at some point. It's also still his best avenue to ever being a major league pitcher.
If memory serves, Adam Stern needed to serve a full season in the Major League roster. So the time he spent on the DL did not count and he had to spend part of the next season in the big league club before he was officially a Red Sox and was immediately optioned.

Have the rules changed? If they haven't the same caveat applies. Whenever Song is activated he needs to spend an entire season (carrying over). Also, I believe the same rules apply to rehab assignments, which means once he starts one he has to be up within 30 days I think.

If any of these rules changed then DD is doing nothing wrong and I am an idiot (well, maybe I am anyways but that's another story)
 

joe dokes

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If he were in the Sox organization right now, I doubt he'd be in Worcester. Salem or Greenville probably. Maybe Portland. Assuming his back was up to it at all.
Which is precisely why he's good with the current arrangement. When healthy, he will be in the Major Leagues.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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If memory serves, Adam Stern needed to serve a full season in the Major League roster. So the time he spent on the DL did not count and he had to spend part of the next season in the big league club before he was officially a Red Sox and was immediately optioned.

Have the rules changed? If they haven't the same caveat applies. Whenever Song is activated he needs to spend an entire season (carrying over). Also, I believe the same rules apply to rehab assignments, which means once he starts one he has to be up within 30 days I think.

If any of these rules changed then DD is doing nothing wrong and I am an idiot (well, maybe I am anyways but that's another story)
The Rule 5 rules are the same and DD is still doing nothing wrong. One caveat if he does spend the whole season on the IL is that the Phillies do not have to keep him on the 26-man roster for the full season next year. I think the requirement is a minimum of 90 days on the active roster, so he'd only have to make up any difference during next season rather than the full season. (if he's active for 30 days this year, he'd need to be active for 60 days next year before the Phillies had full control and could option him to their minor leagues)

Regarding the IL rehab rules, as a pitcher he gets a maximum of 30 days of rehab before he must be activated. However, that clock can be reset if he's shut down for at least 10 days (might be 14).
 

ShaneTrot

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I am happy for Song, at least he is cashing MLB checks. Of course, if he somehow becomes 'healthy' this year and ends up facing big-league hitters, he will probably get his head kicked in.
 

Rovin Romine

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The Rule 5 rules are the same and DD is still doing nothing wrong. One caveat if he does spend the whole season on the IL is that the Phillies do not have to keep him on the 26-man roster for the full season next year. I think the requirement is a minimum of 90 days on the active roster, so he'd only have to make up any difference during next season rather than the full season. (if he's active for 30 days this year, he'd need to be active for 60 days next year before the Phillies had full control and could option him to their minor leagues)

Regarding the IL rehab rules, as a pitcher he gets a maximum of 30 days of rehab before he must be activated. However, that clock can be reset if he's shut down for at least 10 days (might be 14).
To put that in context, we're at 62 days from the season opener. 90 days on the active roster is a long time for a club that wants to contend.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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To put that in context, we're at 62 days from the season opener. 90 days on the active roster is a long time for a club that wants to contend.
The one pitcher that I can recall who did this for the Sox was John Trautwein in 1988 who came over from the Expos in the Rule 5 draft. He only appeared in nine games that year and was bombed. The interesting thing, and something that I forgot, is that on August 31 the Sox gave him back to Montreal and then they traded Victor Rosario for him on the same day. I'm not sure why they made this move on that particular date as back then you could expand your rosters to 40 and the minor league season was coming to a close, so having him on the roster wouldn't have been that big of a deal and I'm not sure where he would have played if he was sent down.

The only thing that I can think of is that the Sox were headed to the Post Season that year (Morgan's Magic) and maybe they thought that they had to keep him in the pen for October? Otherwise, I have no idea for the transaction.

Anyway, this killed Trautwein's career as he never threw another pitch in the Majors. Funny thing was Trautwein was a physics major (I think) at Northwestern and the only time you'd read about him in the paper was when writers would ask how far long home runs would travel. I guess he was pretty good at that sort of thing. Basically, Trautwein was a dude who won a "Be a Major League Pitcher for a Year" contest. He sat around in the bullpen and did physics homework.
 

JM3

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Good to see. 12 pitch, 1-2-3 inning... but that stuff looks a looooong way off.
 

jmm57

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Doesn’t look like a guy that’s going to have any trouble with the pitch clock. That was 5 pitches in like 48 seconds.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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He’s already 26 (wish I could say the same for myself). Certainly would take him back if offered, but all that time off probably didn’t do his development any favors, and it’s hard to see what the actual upside is at this point.