Yup, just saw that. But they could have done it once though, right?It’s been discussed, they could call a 15 yard penalty with no clock run off.
Yup, just saw that. But they could have done it once though, right?It’s been discussed, they could call a 15 yard penalty with no clock run off.
It's an expression. Of course I know exactly how they feel.You're a Sox fan. I'm sure you can relate at least a bit, no?
This loss for Buffalo has to feel like 2003 did for Sox fans.You're a Sox fan. I'm sure you can relate at least a bit, no?
Uncertain on that point. @CFB_Rules ??Yup, just saw that. But they could have done it once though, right?
And it could go either way, right? After the incredible heartbreak, they could come back and win it all next year. Or their organization could slide backward like so many others who come close but don't quite get there.This loss for Buffalo has to feel like 2003 did for Sox fans.
Basically depends on how blatant it is. It already falls under the "unfair acts" part of the rules so basically the crew can do whatever they think is equitable.Uncertain on that point. @CFB_Rules ??
They should have rushed 2I rewatched the end of the game on NFL Network, and Romo made a great point prior to the pass to Kelce that set up the FG. The Bills rushed four on that play. He suggested they should have rushed three and dropped the fourth guy into coverage, because with 8 seconds left, Mahomes was going to throwing the ball quickly anyway, so that extra rusher would have been better deployed in coverage (like maybe doubling Kelce).
Don't believe so. At least not technically. Rule is for multiple fouls on the same play in an attempt to manipulate the game clock.Yup, just saw that. But they could have done it once though, right?
Thanks. I dread the day this is attempted. Especially if it’s against KC.Basically depends on how blatant it is. It already falls under the "unfair acts" part of the rules so basically the crew can do whatever they think is equitable.
In real life they could probably get away with it.
Absolutely...there's so much young talent in the AFC and the window only seems to stay open for such a short period of time in the NFL.And it could go either way, right? After the incredible heartbreak, they could come back and win it all next year. Or their organization could slide backward like so many others who come close but don't quite get there.
I agree with this... although I will say the context is a little comic/tragic, given that burned into the collective psyche of all Buffalo fans is the Music City Miracle, where of course a short-ish kickoff in a similar situation led to disaster. Despite common sense and football wisdom begging for a squib kick/short kick, I would bet a lot of Bills fans were probably relieved in real time when they kicked deep.The risk of Byron Pringle ripping one to well into BUF territory - or even scoring - is way lower than the risk of what actually happened.
I'm sure this is about as bad as it gets, but the fact that 2003 was a loss to the Yankees in Yankee Stadium I think still gives that an edge. The direct analogy would have been if yesterday's game were at Gillette. In fact, absolutely humiliating the Patriots in these playoffs in Round One was one of the sweetest moments in the last two decades for Bills fans, right?This loss for Buffalo has to feel like 2003 did for Sox fans.
Been thinking about this. Perhaps because I'm a homer, I'll still give the edge to the Snow Bowl (because of the environment) and SB 49 (Pats/Seahawks), but this is pretty close.Haven't read the thread at all as I was behind on the game, sorry, but if you asked me the best football game I ever saw, my answer for basically my whole life would have been the 41-38 SD/MIA game in 1981, but I think that KC/BUF game just topped it. Did that really just happen?
I thought it was intentional (unlike what the article says), and I thought the NFL changed the rules as a result. I will now take a shower to rid myself of this memory:On the last drive of SB 46, the Giants had a 12 men penalty that took eight seconds off the clock which you'll take every time for five yards. I don't know if it was intentional, but it was certainly effective.
https://www.footballzebras.com/2012/09/12-men-in-formation-now-stops-play/There’s a new rule in the NFL this year, thanks in part to a play in the waning moments of last year’s Super Bowl between the New England Patriots and the New York Giants.
The Giants accidentally ran a play with 12 men on the field. The penalty back then was a flag at the snap, five yard penalty from the previous spot, and repeat the down. That was all well and good for the Patriots, but the play ate up precious seconds. So, in the long run, it could be successfully argued that the 12th man foiled the Patriots play AND ate time off the clock.
So for 2012, the NFL has a new rule. If the officials detect 12 men on the field on the defense and that 12th man is not attempting to get off the field, they will blow the whistle, kill the clock, and administer the five-yard penalty as a dead-ball foul.
I was thinking the same thing. Whatever they did, they should have been more concerned with conceding yards underneath rather than getting beaten over the top, because the Chiefs weren't looking to score a TD there but rather just to get into FG range.They should have rushed 2
Should have ran a (from the back) 2-4-3-2 defense with man principles.
Had a half-joking conversation after the game about when do defenses start to rush like 8 guys with 3 deep just to prevent long gains on a heave ho. 8 would contain the QB and he'd only have 2 seconds to get the ball away, over lineman trying to tip the pass.with 13 seconds left, the bills should have rushed 4, had 4 guys at the line of scrimmage and three guys deep. They should have told the 4 guys in press coverage, literally, I dont want the receiver to get 10 yards past the line of scrimmage. the second the ball is snapped, hold, bearhug, wrestle, suplex, whatever you need to do, get them to the ground. If Mahomes has nobody to throw to, he will sit back there dancing, and waste valuable seconds. We will take the 5 yard penalty all day long. Even if they call a personal foul, we can live with it, if 5-6 seconds come off the clock.
No as mentioned earlier, personal foul and game clock is reset. They changed this rule a could years ago after the Ravens did this on multiple plays.with 13 seconds left, the bills should have rushed 4, had 4 guys at the line of scrimmage and three guys deep. They should have told the 4 guys in press coverage, literally, I dont want the receiver to get 10 yards past the line of scrimmage. the second the ball is snapped, hold, bearhug, wrestle, suplex, whatever you need to do, get them to the ground. If Mahomes has nobody to throw to, he will sit back there dancing, and waste valuable seconds. We will take the 5 yard penalty all day long. Even if they call a personal foul, we can live with it, if 5-6 seconds come off the clock.
ARTICLE 3. INTENTIONAL FOULS TO MANIPULATE GAME CLOCK
A team may not commit multiple fouls during the same down in an attempt to manipulate the game clock.
Penalty: For multiple fouls to run off time from the game clock: Loss of 15 yards, and the game clock will be reset to where it was at the snap. After the penalty is enforced, the game clock will start on the next snap.
Yeah, I think this sums it up pretty well.I feel terrible for Bills fans but I loathe McDermott and his tough guy routine.
They were also defending the sidelines for some reason in situation where KC had all 3 timeouts.No need to rush 4. Rush 2 and let Mahomes take time off clock if chooses. Can't wait to see the All 22 but looked like Buffalo basically conceded the FG to prevent a TD. They called 2 timeouts and those were the calls they came up with.
I was flooded with relief once again that KC elected to kick for the tie with 8 seconds left in the 2018 AFCCG rather than take a shot in the end zone. Any time for Mahomes is too much time.One of my first thoughts this morning after awakening was "13 fucking seconds". I'm a Pats fan living in New England. I can only imagine the hell that Bills fans are dealing with this morning.
This is a good point.I was flooded with relief once again that KC elected to kick for the tie with 8 seconds left in the 2018 AFCCG rather than take a shot in the end zone. Any time for Mahomes is too much time.
You sure about that? I mean, I guess this was with 23 seconds left, but the Chiefs did basically the exact same thing to the Patriots in early 2019.I think you’d get away with that intentional holding strategy once, which is all you’d need. There is a risk the officials flag it even though it’s not prohibited by an express rule addressing this exact scenario (it only prohibits MULTIPLE intentional penalties on the same down), but that would bring into question why that rule needed to even be passed if it could already be penalized as a palpably unfair act.
No way the Ravens or Patriots, just to name two examples, allow KC to have a second play from scrimmage from about the 45 with 8 seconds left. A combination of a short kickoff and an intentional holding tactic on the first play would preclude that Kelce play to set KC up in sub-50 FG range.
As to the Tony Gonzalez true double team chuck coverage, I recall Belichick stating that it is illegal now, even inside of five yards, but I can’t find an express basis for that in the NFL rule book.
You think Flowers intentionally jumped?You sure about that? I mean, I guess this was with 23 seconds left, but the Chiefs did basically the exact same thing to the Patriots in early 2019.
View attachment 48699
He did however lay the lumber on a tackle of a fan. Also, hard to have him go off when Gabriel Davis is going for 8 and 201 and 4tds:While I recognize that he wasn't the reason the Bills lost Stephon Diggs had 3 receptions for 7 yards in probably the biggest game of his life against a terrible Chiefs secondary. Incredible.
I don't think he was arguing they would take an intentional penalty. I think he was saying there's no way they'd allow a similar type of completion. But of course, they did back in the 2018 game.You think Flowers intentionally jumped?
No way. Go to 2:19:30 of the game tape.
View: https://youtu.be/BoVG6evyoRI
He jumps, then tries to get back onside. If you were committing an intentional defensive penalty to kill clock, you wouldn’t jump
offside then try to recover onside. You’d hold a receiver. All Flowers did was give them a free play to no defensive advantage.
So kick a touchback?I don't think he was arguing they would take an intentional penalty. I think he was saying there's no way they'd allow a similar type of completion. But of course, they did back in the 2018 game.
Maybe I'm not following either.So kick a touchback?
Not following. The point of kicking short with 13 seconds is you either get the returner to kneel/fair catch at the 5-10 yard line or draw down 5-6 seconds from the play clock, leaving time for one play before they’d need to kick. It greatly limits the offense’s paths to a makable FGA.
I think kicking short if you like your coverage unit makes sense in the ‘18 AFCCG, too, even with 39 seconds left, but for the purposes of this comparison the difference between 39 seconds and 13 seconds is massive. That’s worth several additional plays, the particulars dependent on when KC uses its TOs and whether they get the sideline on any completions. That is, the potential time run off the kickoff return v no time elapsing on a touchback is much less consequential to the Chiefs odds of getting a FGA in the ‘18 AFCCG than it was last night.
‘Hey they could get a thirty yarder because they did in another game’ neglects to mention that the odds of that are not high against the coverage you’d be playing on a final scrimmage play and doing so could kill the rest of the clock in doing so where there are 7-8 seconds left after the kick return.
In my scenario, the first play from scrimmage is with about 8 seconds left. They aren’t getting a second play from scrimmage in that situation that doesn’t - absent a defensive penalty - end the game because, unlike a goal line play or a play with 12 plus seconds, they can’t run a second play from scrimmage that materially improves their chances of getting into scoring position without killing the clock.Maybe I'm not following either.
Your first post (summarized): no way the Pats would let the Chiefs run a 2nd play from the 45 with 8 seconds left, they would have done something to prevent that situation
Laddie's response: the Chiefs ran 2 plays in 16 seconds in a similar situation back in 2018, so the Pats basically did the same thing
But fully agree with you that 39 and 13 seconds aren't comparable.
Yeah, no, my bad. I misread your post.You think Flowers intentionally jumped?
No way. Go to 2:19:30 of the game tape.
View: https://youtu.be/BoVG6evyoRI
He jumps, then tries to get back onside. If you were committing an intentional defensive penalty to kill clock, you wouldn’t jump
offside then try to recover onside. You’d hold a receiver. All Flowers did was give them a free play to no defensive advantage.
He wasn't. It was Pringle. That should have made a non-end zone kick mandatory.I know HIll returned the last punt in regulation. I thought i heard them say he was back there on the kick-off as well
They should have had 8 back in coverage and 3 guys on the line fake rush and dance around waving their arms at him from the LOS to distract. Making it more difficult to complete a shorter pass.I like the idea of rushing 2 the most. Romo was making a great point about how pass rush wasn’t the constraint for Mahomes, time was. Regardless of whether you blitz or rush 2, Mahomes had to release the ball within a couple seconds. If you are dropping 9, that is way hard for him to complete something downfield than dropping 7.
Because, in the least satisfying answer possible, roughing the passer is treated differently because it is. If 10 seconds had elapsed and Donald simply plowed Brady into the bench as he went to the sideline, I suspect it would be a regular deadball PF.Reffing question for @CFB_Rules - On the Evans play, the ball hit the ground a split second before Waddle leveled him with a helmet-to-helmet hit. Therefore, it technically was (being fourth down) a change of possession and therefore the ball didn't go back to the Bucs.
Now let's say that instead of H-2-H on the WR, it was a H-2-H on Brady. Say he tried to throw a screen on fourth down and the ball hit the turf a second before Donald drilled Brady in the head. So incomplete pass, turnover on downs, but Brady gets pummeled by Donald in a clear roughing penalty. They throw the flag for a personal foul.
In that case, would the Bucs have retained possession? If so, why is it different than the H-2-H on Evans?
Roughing the passer is assumed by rule to occur during the pass, so it would always be during the play. I don’t think I have ever seen a roughing foul that wasn’t during the play though.Because, in the least satisfying answer possible, roughing the passer is treated differently because it is. If 10 seconds had elapsed and Donald simply plowed Brady into the bench as he went to the sideline, I suspect it would be a regular deadball PF.
There’s never been a late hit on a QB after the ball has hit the ground?Roughing the passer is assumed by rule to occur during the pass, so it would always be during the play. I don’t think I have ever seen a roughing foul that wasn’t during the play though.
I mean, how often do you see a helmet to helmet hit on a defenseless receiver after the ball hits the ground? I'm having trouble thinking of an example before this past weekend, and any hit on the QB would happen way earlier.There’s never been a late hit on a QB after the ball has hit the ground?
It turns out that Joe Pos is almost the exact same age as me (one month younger) and thought the same thing. It was the crazy end obviously but also the quality of play from both teams the entire game, the defenses couldn’t do anything by the end but it was because they’d been battered into submission, like the late rounds of a great heavyweight fight.Been thinking about this. Perhaps because I'm a homer, I'll still give the edge to the Snow Bowl (because of the environment) and SB 49 (Pats/Seahawks), but this is pretty close.
The question is not whether the 15 yards gets enforced, though (it was). The question is about possession of the ball.I mean, how often do you see a helmet to helmet hit on a defenseless receiver after the ball hits the ground? I'm having trouble thinking of an example before this past weekend, and any hit on the QB would happen way earlier.
And how many of those occur on 4th down?I mean, how often do you see a helmet to helmet hit on a defenseless receiver after the ball hits the ground? I'm having trouble thinking of an example before this past weekend, and any hit on the QB would happen way earlier.
Not if he was throwing a screen pass, or throwing the ball into the ground to avoid a sack. QBs do that all the time and occasionally they still get hit late. I've never seen it on fourth down though, but in the history of the NFL it has to have happened before. I'm just asking CFB what would happen in that scenario. I suspect they'd treat the QB *very* differently than the WR. Like if Brady tried to dump a screen to Fournette on that play and the ball hit the ground a split second before Brady got absolutely lit up by Aaron Donald, and they called roughing, I'm 100% convinced the Bucs would retain possession there. Because....QB.I mean, how often do you see a helmet to helmet hit on a defenseless receiver after the ball hits the ground? I'm having trouble thinking of an example before this past weekend, and any hit on the QB would happen way earlier.