NFL Playoffs - Championship Round

[glennhoffmania]

I still agree with Marciano that such a focus on rings is very Brady-centric. If he had gotten to 8 SBs and only won 3 I think the arguments around here would be very different. It's such a team game with so many factors that the QB can't control. But for anyone who is going to use rings as the primary focus there's nothing further to discuss at this point.

But honest question, if we can be objective- in how many seasons was Brady the clear cut best QB in the league? I don't have the time or energy to do a deep dive right now, but just looking at QBR he led the league twice with the last time back in 2010. Mahomes has already done that twice, and I think there's an argument that in his first five seasons he was the clear top QB in four of them. Brady and his team were incredibly successful for a long time. Mahomes has been phenomenal since day one and has been clearly a better player than Brady if you compare them at the same age.

The idea that Mahomes will be penalized if his defense falls apart or if his kicker misses a key FG or something similar happens while he plays very well in a SB defies logic to me.

 

[Shelterdog]

Cincy didn't yesterday. Stupid.

They actually did. Not every play but a lot.

EDIT: And on a lot of plays its impossible to tell how they were covering him with the tv copy.

 

[Pablo's TB Lover]

I still agree with Marciano that such a focus on rings is very Brady-centric. If he had gotten to 8 SBs and only won 3 I think the arguments around here would be very different. It's such a team game with so many factors that the QB can't control. But for anyone who is going to use rings as the primary focus there's nothing further to discuss at this point.

But honest question, if we can be objective- in how many seasons was Brady the clear cut best QB in the league? I don't have the time or energy to do a deep dive right now, but just looking at QBR he led the league twice with the last time back in 2010. Mahomes has already done that twice, and I think there's an argument that in his first five seasons he was the clear top QB in four of them. Brady and his team were incredibly successful for a long time. Mahomes has been phenomenal since day one and has been clearly a better player than Brady if you compare them at the same age.

The idea that Mahomes will be penalized if his defense falls apart or if his kicker misses a key FG or something similar happens while he plays very well in a SB defies logic to me.

Not sure if comparing Mahomes v Brady with that standard will be beneficial one way or the other. You had Peyton Manning doing great things with the Colts during Brady's career, and Josh Allen and Joe Burrow may likewise keep Mahomes from being "the clear cut best QB in the league" on a regular basis. A measure easily found and indicates both individual and relative team success (winning record or in the playoffs) is top 5 MVP voting.

Brady has 3 MVP wins and has been top five 10 times over 22 full time seasons (if calling 2001 full time). So just under half the time. This seems to track, as Mahomes has 1 MVP win with a possible 2nd this season (remains to be seen), and he'll have 3 top five MVP votes in 6 seasons.

 

[Norm Siebern]

I turned off the game in the 3rd quarter when the Refs gave a first down to KC after the KC running back reached forward to try to get the 1st down, even though his knees were already down and a yard and a half short. Bag job for KC, I thought, why watch?

Woke up this morning to read and hear that this treatment continued, to the point of allowing KC to re-run plays that were not successful. My decision to turn off the game was validated. My God, what a joke. If I want to watch games that are made to run to a pre-decided narrative, I'll watch the WWE.

And I have no plans whatsoever to watch the Super Bowl. Fuck off, NFL. You took a great sport played by magnificent athletes and ruined it. Fuck off.

 

[loshjott]

Ironically, I thought the ankle injury that prevented Mahomes from doing his usual "run 30 yards backwards before throwing a dart to Kelce" routine actually made him better yesterday; he stayed in the pocked longer and didn't try to play stupid hero ball, which had cost KC in the past. Yes he still scrambled a bit but he calmed down in the pocket and I think he was the better for it.

Is this Tony Romo? He was saying the same thing.

 

[Salva135]

Not sure if comparing Mahomes v Brady with that standard will be beneficial one way or the other. You had Peyton Manning doing great things with the Colts during Brady's career, and Josh Allen and Joe Burrow may likewise keep Mahomes from being "the clear cut best QB in the league" on a regular basis. A measure easily found and indicates both individual and relative team success (winning record or in the playoffs) is top 5 MVP voting.

Brady has 3 MVP wins and has been top five 10 times over 22 full time seasons (if calling 2001 full time). So just under half the time. This seems to track, as Mahomes has 1 MVP win with a possible 2nd this season (remains to be seen), and he'll have 3 top five MVP votes in 6 seasons.

Mahomes has been the best QB in the league
since his first season on the field. He dominated since Day 1.

 

[glennhoffmania]

Not sure if comparing Mahomes v Brady with that standard will be beneficial one way or the other. You had Peyton Manning doing great things with the Colts during Brady's career, and Josh Allen and Joe Burrow may likewise keep Mahomes from being "the clear cut best QB in the league" on a regular basis. A measure easily found and indicates both individual and relative team success (winning record or in the playoffs) is top 5 MVP voting.

Brady has 3 MVP wins and has been top five 10 times over 22 full time seasons (if calling 2001 full time). So just under half the time. This seems to track, as Mahomes has 1 MVP win with a possible 2nd this season (remains to be seen), and he'll have 3 top five MVP votes in 6 seasons.

Coming into this season I think there was a legitimate debate about whether it was Mahomes or Allen. There is absolutely no debate right now. Mahomes is by far the clear cut best QB in the league despite how good Allen, Burrow, Herbert, or Tua may be. That could never have been said about Brady. If KC loses in two weeks it doesn't change the fact that Mahomes is easily the best QB in the league. If KC wins in two weeks it doesn't make Mahomes better than he is today.

The way I see it Mahomes is basically Marino but he already has a ring.

 

[brandonchristensen]

I still don’t think Mahomes’ body holds up. Feels like he’s always hobbled by the end of the year. The running QBs just never seem to last.

 

[Salva135]

When Mahomes flipped out on his coaching staff after being asked to sit last week, I accepted him as a worthy successor to the throne, if he can get there. He's got the Brady tiger blood.

 

[CoffeeNerdness]

They actually did. Not every play but a lot.

EDIT: And on a lot of plays its impossible to tell how they were covering him with the tv copy.

That's what I noticed as well. Also, Reid is a very clever schemer so if you strictly bracket Kelce other guys will be getting looks (Hello, MVS) or he'll find ways to get Kelce open regardless of the bracket coverage.

 

[SemperFidelisSox]

I still don’t think Mahomes’ body holds up. Feels like he’s always hobbled by the end of the year. The running QBs just never seem to last.

Yeah, but unlike a lot of running QBs I think Mahomes can transition to a pure pocket passer and still have success.

 

[glennhoffmania]

I still don’t think Mahomes’ body holds up. Feels like he’s always hobbled by the end of the year. The running QBs just never seem to last.

He averages about four rushes per game. I wouldn't call him a running QB. As a comparison, Allen averages about seven rushes per game. Jackson is over ten. Burrow rushed more often than Mahomes this year.

 

[BaseballJones]

I distinguish between the "best" and the "greatest". The "best" is someone with the personal stats and accolades, but the "greatest" takes into account the whole point of the sport, which is winning.

Bradshaw and Montana both have four SB titles, but Bradshaw's individual accolades are dwarfed by Montana's. Conversely, if you have two QBs with similar personal accolades but one of them wins a hell of a lot more than the other, the "greatest" nod goes to the one who has won more.

The thing about Brady is this: He has BOTH personal accolades AND unparalleled success in winning. It's not like he's been a pretty decent QB who just happens to have won a lot. That was basically Bradshaw, who was on absolutely loaded teams stacked with Hall of Famers. He was perfectly fine, a solid player. On the other hand, Marino was a transcendent talent, but really found it difficult to win the big game.

Brady has it all.

Personal accolades:
- 3 MVPs
- 10 top 5 MVP voting
- 15 Pro Bowls
- 3 All Pro first team
- 5 Super Bowl MVPs
- Comeback player of the year
- All 2000s HOF team
- All 2010s HOF team
- Led the NFL in passing yards 4 times
- Led the NFL in passing TDs 5 times
- #1 all time in passing yards
- #1 all time in passing TDs
- #1 all time in 4th quarter comebacks
- #5 all time in best interception %

Team success:
- 10 trips to the Super Bowl (thus, 10 conference championships)
- 7 Super Bowl titles
- 14 trips to the conference championship
- 251 career regular season wins (most all time)
- 35 career playoff wins (most all time)

His very best statistical seasons stack up against anyone that's ever played the game:

2007: 398-578 (68.9%), 4,806 yds, 50 td, 8 int, 117.2 rating
2010: 324-492 (65.6%), 3,900 yds, 36 td, 4 int, 111.0 rating
2011: 401-611 (65.6%), 5,235 yds, 39 td, 12 int, 105.6 rating
2016: 291-432 (67.4%), 3,554 yds, 28 td, 2 int, 112.2 rating (the year he got 4 games taken away)

So he's not "just" a compiler either. He's had unfathomably great individual seasons. His peak is as good as anyone that's ever played. And he's been great for FAR longer than anyone else in history.

I mean, I know we've done this before, but he's basically had THREE separate hall of fame careers:

- 2000-2006
- 2007-2013
- 2014-present

Patrick Mahomes is otherworldly, let's not kid ourselves. He has a LONG, LONG way to go to approach Tom Brady in the "greatest" QB conversation.

 

[8slim]

They actually did. Not every play but a lot.

EDIT: And on a lot of plays its impossible to tell how they were covering him with the tv copy.

So funny. Yes, randos on the Internet have cracked the code on how to slow down Kelce. If only those knucklehead DCs who work 16 hours a day would just wise up!

 

[mr_smith02]

Serious question as I truly don't know the rules well enough to know the answer...
On the play where the clock clearly should have been stopped, but instead, KC ran a play, did not get the first down, and looked to have to punt, then was given a re-do, what should have been the by-the-book correct thing the refs should have done in that situation?

Yes, KC ultimately punted on that possession, but it clearly impacted the rest of the game and the choice the Bengals had to make from that point forward.

 

[8slim]

Coming into this season I think there was a legitimate debate about whether it was Mahomes or Allen. There is absolutely no debate right now. Mahomes is by far the clear cut best QB in the league despite how good Allen, Burrow, Herbert, or Tua may be. That could never have been said about Brady. If KC loses in two weeks it doesn't change the fact that Mahomes is easily the best QB in the league. If KC wins in two weeks it doesn't make Mahomes better than he is today.

The way I see it Mahomes is basically Marino but he already has a ring.

Eh, we'll see. If KC starts slow next season, and Burrow or Allen is off to a roaring start, there won't be a lot of 'Mahomes is the undisputed best ' talk. I was around for Marino's entire career and he never got that undisputed accolade in real time either. There was always a Montana or Elway or Kelly, etc. who people would hold up in equally high regard.

 

[glennhoffmania]

Eh, we'll see. If KC starts slow next season, and Burrow or Allen is off to a roaring start, there won't be a lot of 'Mahomes is the undisputed best ' talk. I was around for Marino's entire career and he never got that undisputed accolade in real time either. There was always a Montana or Elway or Kelly, etc. who people would hold up in equally high regard.

Absolutely. But right now, based on the 2022 season, there really isn't a debate.

 

[CFB_Rules]

Serious question as I truly don't know the rules well enough to know the answer...
On the play where the clock clearly should have been stopped, but instead, KC ran a play, did not get the first down, and looked to have to punt, then was given a re-do, what should have been the by-the-book correct thing the refs should have done in that situation?

Yes, KC ultimately punted on that possession, but it clearly impacted the rest of the game and the choice the Bengals had to make from that point forward.

What the officials did is the by-the-book correct thing. The officials, if they notice an error before the snap, are supposed to correct the error. The error was noticed by the Field Judge who is positioned 35 yards away downfield (which is probably 50 yards away from the Referee with the microphone). He tried to stop the play from occurring, but due to positioning was too far away and nobody heard the whistle. But the fact that the whistle was sounded means by rule the play never happened.

 

[brandonchristensen]

He averages about four rushes per game. I wouldn't call him a running QB. As a comparison, Allen averages about seven rushes per game. Jackson is over ten. Burrow rushed more often than Mahomes this year.

But his legs allow him to get out of the way to make great last second throws.

I thought he was very unimpressive outside a handful of plays yesterday because he was clearly slowed down (mustering enough on that final play).

His scramble skills are God tier and if he loses that I don’t know if he is as good.

 

[8slim]

But his legs allow him to get out of the way to make great last second throws.

I thought he was very unimpressive outside a handful of plays yesterday because he was clearly slowed down (mustering enough on that final play).

His scramble skills are God tier and if he loses that I don’t know if he is as good.

Now that more and more "mobile" QBs are starting, I wonder if we'll start to see a progression similar to what we used to see in baseball. That being, the fireballers who learned how to "pitch" as they lost a few MPH off their fastballs as they aged. Mahomes strikes me as being highly skilled enough to emphasize his footwork and ability to move in the pocket as his ability to break and run declines. Burrow seems like he'll do that as well. Not so sure about Allen.

 

[glennhoffmania]

But his legs allow him to get out of the way to make great last second throws.

I thought he was very unimpressive outside a handful of plays yesterday because he was clearly slowed down (mustering enough on that final play).

His scramble skills are God tier and if he loses that I don’t know if he is as good.

In your previous comment you referred to him as a "running QB." Now you're saying the issue is that he moves around in the pocket and if his legs go he won't be able to move around as well? And what is your concern about his legs if he's not actually a running QB? You're reaching. Your comments could be applied to Allen, Burrow, Herbert, Jackson, Hurts, Rodgers, Dak, Lawrence, Tua, Watson, Jones, and any other decent to great QB who relies on their legs at all, either to run or to be mobile within the pocket.

 

[RIrooter09]

Now that more and more "mobile" QBs are starting, I wonder if we'll start to see a progression similar to what we used to see in baseball. That being, the fireballers who learned how to "pitch" as they lost a few MPH off their fastballs as they aged. Mahomes strikes me as being highly skilled enough to emphasize his footwork and ability to move in the pocket as his ability to break and run declines. Burrow seems like he'll do that as well. Not so sure about Allen.

That appeared to be Russell Wilson's career arc until this season happened.

 

[8slim]

That appeared to be Russell Wilson's career arc until this season happened.

For sure. Sometimes QBs just start sucking. Wilson was in decline and then the Broncos acquired him.

 

[Al Zarilla]

The whole Mahomes vs Brady thing is still premature.

Brady has had an otherwordly carrer. I had a big discussion with my nephew years ago about Montana vs Brady. He cited some numbers, I countered, Montana had 4 rings, Montana had that drive in Super Bowl 23, etc. Then Brady kept going. And he did 28-3. And he won another superbowl in Tampa bay. Hell, Megatron started to play and retired and was elected to the Hall of Fame DURING Brady's career.

So yeah, the 5 years we have ssen from Mahomes have been amazing, and if he gets 2 rings out of them we can keep talking, but career wise it's not even close.

And I'm not a Patriots fan (I do like the Pats a lot but I root for my 9ers)

Ugh, I turned on good Morning Football at 7 am CA time. I think they have the best summary program of the major sports, including MLBN, the NBA and NHL channels, and ESPN. On a day like today, they'd usually go into the games chronologically (Niners Eagles first and Bengals Chiefs second). They did the opposite, and spent a good 15 minutes straight on the AFC game, showing the penalty hit on Saint Mahomes about 3 times. Onto the 9er game and they didn't even show the McCaffrey run! It was all about the injuries, Shanahan missing the no catch early that led to the first TD, and more injuries. They all love the Chiefs, gonna have to live with it.

 

[Euclis20]

None of the active QBs we think of as mobile really compare with Mahomes in my mind. He can absolutely do what they do, but he (and the Chiefs) almost never opt for it, his mobility is a safety valve more than a weapon, at least until a 2 minute drill when he basically turns on cheat mode. Additionally, he really is a step above anyone else playing right now, which changes his career outlook. Wilson is a decent comp, but at his absolute best he's still a level below Mahomes.

The comp that works the best for me is Aaron Rodgers. Mahomes has averaged 63 rushing attempts and 331 rushing yards per 17 games since his first full season. Through the first five full seasons of Rodgers' career, he averaged 64 rushing attempts and 304 yards per 17 games (and his rushing yards per 17 games actually went up slightly over the next 5 years, to 326). Plus unlike the other guys, Rodgers is/was also a top tier pocket QB when he needed to be, just like Mahomes. Injuries can change the picture, but looking at his playstyle I really don't see why he can't do what Rodgers is doing and remain at the very top into his late 30s. This isn't Josh Allen smashing into linebackers as the announcers can barely remember to breath, or Jalen Hurts rushing SEVEN times in a 2nd half drive near the end of a blowout. Mahomes is just smarter and better than these guys, no reason to think he won't last longer at the top level.

 

[trekfan55]

Ugh, I turned on good Morning Football at 7 am CA time. I think they have the best summary program of the major sports, including MLBN, the NBA and NHL channels, and ESPN. On a day like today, they'd usually go into the games chronologically (Niners Eagles first and Bengals Chiefs second). They did the opposite, and spent a good 15 minutes straight on the AFC game, showing the penalty hit on Saint Mahomes about 3 times. Onto the 9er game and they didn't even show the McCaffrey run! It was all about the injuries, Shanahan missing the no catch early that led to the first TD, and more injuries. They all love the Chiefs, gonna have to live with it.

Injries were a huge factor. Along with penalties.

Hell, they showed CMC trying on the helmet with the microphone at one point.

That being said, CMC`s run tied the game at 7 in the 2nd quarter.

 

[Al Zarilla]

Injries were a huge factor. Along with penalties.

Hell, they showed CMC trying on the helmet with the microphone at one point.

That being said, CMC`s run tied the game at 7 in the 2nd quarter.

I'll have to look at it again. It seemed so 80-20 or 90-10 in coverage ratio between the two games. Of course, they were very disparate in closeness, excitement, etc.

 

[brandonchristensen]

In your previous comment you referred to him as a "running QB." Now you're saying the issue is that he moves around in the pocket and if his legs go he won't be able to move around as well? And what is your concern about his legs if he's not actually a running QB? You're reaching. Your comments could be applied to Allen, Burrow, Herbert, Jackson, Hurts, Rodgers, Dak, Lawrence, Tua, Watson, Jones, and any other decent to great QB who relies on their legs at all, either to run or to be mobile within the pocket.

By running I mean he’s mobile and can use his legs to dance out of danger. Any time you leave the pocket youre putting yourself in a position for a big hit, or a non contact injury even.

I think Allen is an insane person, and Jackson has definitely been injured a bunch and I would be terrified to give him a big contract.

We are just talking about Mahomes in here - all mobile QBs have an extra risk component, but Mahomes stands out because he’s hobbled right now (and was his last SB appearance).

my point is that I don’t know how long the shelf life is on these guys to start saying he will pass Brady.

 

[trekfan55]

I'll have to look at it again. It seemed so 80-20 or 90-10 in coverage ratio between the two games. Of course, they were very disparate in closeness, excitement, etc.

Apologies. I was discussing the injuries. I agree that they are "overcovering" the Bengals Chiefs, but maybe they are doing it because that game was more competitive?

I did not see the post games. Too angry.

 

[Euclis20]

By running I mean he’s mobile and can use his legs to dance out of danger. Any time you leave the pocket youre putting yourself in a position for a big hit, or a non contact injury even.

I think Allen is an insane person, and Jackson has definitely been injured a bunch and I would be terrified to give him a big contract.

We are just talking about Mahomes in here - all mobile QBs have an extra risk component, but Mahomes stands out because he’s hobbled right now (and was his last SB appearance).

my point is that I don’t know how long the shelf life is on these guys to start saying he will pass Brady.

On the bolded, it's just not realistic for any player to think about playing at an MVP level into his mid 40s. More realistic thinking is if they can maintain their current level of play through their mid 30s and remain decent in their late 30s.

Mahomes is definitely a mobile QB and may decline accordingly, but there are levels to this. Do mobile QBs age faster because they get hurt and their bodies break down faster than pocket QBs? Or do mobile QBs age faster because as they get slower in their 30s, the rest of their game isn't good enough to compensate for decline in mobility? I'm sure it's both, but I really don't think Mahomes has to worry too much about the latter.

 

[Salva135]

I think Mahomes can do everything he does from the pocket,but he's so athletic that the hero ball instinct will always be there, same with Josh Allen. It will bite them eventually, especially Mahomes given his frame. That shit is such a part of the KC offense that even Kelce wants to make dazzling laterals to extend plays. Brady could never make an athletic play so that idea was never ingrained in his psyche.

 

[Al Zarilla]

I did not see the post games. Too angry.

I don't blame you. Everything that could happen (bad) did happen to the 49ers.
Like everyone else, I'm most interested in what they do about the quarterback position. Purdy is kind of short, comparatively, and can he see over, throw over the 6'1-6'3 or taller monster linemen we
have today? Then, is his arm strength good enough? What's the shelf life on his scrambling ability. He really hit the ground running this year. Could Trey Lance (6'4) do the same next year. Personally, I've gone from full backing of Purdy to let's see what Lance has.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

What the officials did is the by-the-book correct thing. The officials, if they notice an error before the snap, are supposed to correct the error. The error was noticed by the Field Judge who is positioned 35 yards away downfield (which is probably 50 yards away from the Referee with the microphone). He tried to stop the play from occurring, but due to positioning was too far away and nobody heard the whistle. But the fact that the whistle was sounded means by rule the play never happened.

In this case, the whole thing is terrible because they made like three mistakes that led to the need to have to stop the play from a guy 50 yards away. First, they spotted the ball incorrectly and then apparently took several seconds to notice. Then, the ref told the timekeeper to wind the clock. Then, all of his colleagues (including presumably the down judge who knew the pass before was incomplete and the line judge who I hope knew the ball was incomplete) heard Torbert announce over the PA that he was going to wind the game clock said nothing and let him actually do it. And then only when he actually did it, did the field judge decide to stop a play that had pretty much already started.

All to save two freaking seconds in a game that had tons of time left. Two seconds is a rounding error. Maybe getting the clock exactly right with under a minute left in a close game makes two seconds matter. It's hard to believe that they had zero discretion here to take a pass on a meaningless error. They need to let these negligible timing errors go and not stop the game because of them. I mean, you see them all the time. Routinely, the question when to start the game clock again after out of bounds is more art than science. You see the guys juggle the ball or whatever and the guy who signals the play clock to run is not always going to be consistent. Refs constantly use discretion whether or not to pump the play clock back to 25 even when there's a running clock. Sometimes they are efficient getting the kicking ball in, and sometimes they are not. Getting hyper fussy over two seconds seems absurd. Once the Chiefs get to the line, you have to let that go.

One thing that I wonder is whether Torbert had discretion to re-pump the play clock to 25 after the botched spot. The game clock was stopped. So, really it's no big deal. At the time they re-spotted the ball, there were 9 seconds left on the play clock. Torbert decided that they were going to put 10 seconds on the clock. To me, that's unfair to KC for an official's error. Even though they had already gotten 30 seconds, it's not their fault that everything got interrupted. Plus, the ball was re-spotted. Yes, it's only a half yard, but maybe they might like to think about a different play. If Torbert had the discretion to re-pump to 25 seconds, that's what he should have done and then maybe that would have given them longer to stop the play if he wound the game clock. I've seen them re-pump for less.

 

[CFB_Rules]

In this case, the whole thing is terrible because they made like three mistakes that led to the need to have to stop the play from a guy 50 yards away. First, they spotted the ball incorrectly and then apparently took several seconds to notice. Then, the ref told the timekeeper to wind the clock. Then, all of his colleagues (including presumably the down judge who knew the pass before was incomplete and the line judge who I hope knew the ball was incomplete) heard Torbert announce over the PA that he was going to wind the game clock said nothing and let him actually do it. And then only when he actually did it, did the field judge decide to stop a play that had pretty much already started.

All to save two freaking seconds in a game that had tons of time left. Two seconds is a rounding error. Maybe getting the clock exactly right with under a minute left in a close game makes two seconds matter. It's hard to believe that they had zero discretion here to take a pass on a meaningless error. They need to let these negligible timing errors go and not stop the game because of them. I mean, you see them all the time. Routinely, the question when to start the game clock again after out of bounds is more art than science. You see the guys juggle the ball or whatever and the guy who signals the play clock to run is not always going to be consistent. Refs constantly use discretion whether or not to pump the play clock back to 25 even when there's a running clock. Sometimes they are efficient getting the kicking ball in, and sometimes they are not. Getting hyper fussy over two seconds seems absurd. Once the Chiefs get to the line, you have to let that go.

One thing that I wonder is whether Torbert had discretion to re-pump the play clock to 25 after the botched spot. The game clock was stopped. So, really it's no big deal. At the time they re-spotted the ball, there were 9 seconds left on the play clock. Torbert decided that they were going to put 10 seconds on the clock. To me, that's unfair to KC for an official's error. Even though they had already gotten 30 seconds, it's not their fault that everything got interrupted. Plus, the ball was re-spotted. Yes, it's only a half yard, but maybe they might like to think about a different play. If Torbert had the discretion to re-pump to 25 seconds, that's what he should have done and then maybe that would have given them longer to stop the play if he wound the game clock. I've seen them re-pump for less.

So the NCAA unofficially uses the "5 and 5" rule for timing errors. Fix any error of greater than 5 seconds regardless of what time is left in the game. Fix any timing error with under 5 minutes left.

The NFL rule is that if the play clock is interrupted under 10 seconds, it must be reset to 10 seconds. NCAA they would get the full clock.

 

[steveluck7]

Like 95% of the confusion and feeling of “these guys have no clue what they’re doing” could have been solved if Tolbert hadn’t watched both special teams units come in the field and get damn near ready to line up for the punt.
When the camera cut to him, you could see the KC punter hold 3 fingers up as it to say “it’s 3rd down?”

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Like 95% of the confusion and feeling of “these guys have no clue what they’re doing” could have been solved if Tolbert hadn’t watched both special teams units come in the field and get damn near ready to line up for the punt.
When the camera cut to him, you could see the KC punter hold 3 fingers up as it to say “it’s 3rd down?”

The announcers were also pretty confused, but as soon as Torbert started talking it was pretty clear that it was going to be a do-over. I think the players on the field got it, after some confusion, well before Nantz and Romo.

What if KC had gotten the first down? Could you imagine? There would have been a near riot. In fact, I'm not sure that they would have really had the courage to call it a do-over. They probably would have. But I actually think as bad as that was for Cincy in that situation it would have been even more unfair to the Chiefs if they had converted and then had to go back for a third and long. Imagine a TD?

When you start to put those scenarios in place, it really magnifies just how bad of a fuck up this was in a massive game and also how idiotic it is to not just let a 2 second clock error go once the Chiefs were ready to snap.

 

[BaseballJones]

McCaffrey feels like the NFC championship got stolen due to the NFL no longer having a rule allowing an emergency 3rd QB.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/49ers-christian-mccaffrey-says-it-feels-like-nfc-title-got-stolen-from-his-team-due-to-a-lack-of-this-rule/

- - -

"You don't want to make excuses, but it just sucks, because we wish we had a healthy quarterback for a full game and just kind of see how the game would have panned out," McCaffrey said. "It's a really good team that we played, but it feels like something got stolen from you. Just wish it would have played out differently."

The NFL used to allow teams to carry an emergency third quarterback on game day, but the league scrapped that rule in 2011. McCaffrey wants to see the league bring it back.

"Hopefully they change that rule where you can carry a third quarterback," McCaffrey said.

If the rule had been in place, the 49ers would have been able to play the second half with at least one healthy quarterback, but instead, they were stuck using a QB who was playing with a torn ligament in his elbow.


"It's tough to win a football game in the NFL without a quarterback, let alone the NFC Championship Game," McCaffrey told Pro Football Talk in a separate interview. "I wish they had changed the rule where you're allowed to carry three. ... I think they should change that. It's not good for us, obviously. It's not good for fans watching to not have a quarterback. I hope there's something they do with that moving forward so that you can stay in the fight."

From 1991 to 2011, each NFL team was allowed to carry an emergency third quarterback who didn't count against the 45-man active roster limit for game day. In 2011, the NFL eliminated the emergency QB rule, but the league also upped the roster limit to 46 players for game day, giving each team an extra spot to work with.

In light of the 49ers' recent issues, it wouldn't be shocking if the NFL were to revisit the emergency QB rule. Not only does McCaffrey want to see it implemented, but 49ers coach Kyle Shanahan and general manager John Lynch have also both made it clear that they would be on board with bringing the rule back."

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The bolded part is key. The NFL did away with the emergency QB, but expanded the game-day active roster by one spot, from 45 to 46. Thus, if a team wanted to carry a 3rd QB, they could (and can) still do that. It has no effect on the rest of the game-day roster. Instead of it being 45 + emergency QB, it's 46, but you can use the 46 however you want. So if teams are actually concerned about the QB spot, just use the 46th spot on another QB.

Sounds like McCaffrey doesn't want to go back to 45 + emergency QB; rather, he wants 46 + emergency QB. Because 46 is better than 45 + emergency QB. It certainly allows teams to carry an additional QB, but if they don't want to, they don't have to; they can use that spot however they want (I think they have to dress a minimum of 2 QBs though...not positive about that).

I just don't love the complaining about the emergency QB rule, when the NFL actually allows teams to carry 3 QBs if they want. In other words, there was nothing in the rules preventing SF from carrying a third QB if they wanted. They just chose not to.

 

[Bowhemian]

This is dumb. Teams can carry 10 QBs on their game day roster if they want. That the team didn't add an extra QB to the active roster is on them, not on the NFL.

 

[rodderick]

I'm just wondering how "dude who is worse than Josh fucking Johnson" would have helped the 49ers at all in that game. You guys got unlucky with injuries in a big spot, it happens.

 

[johnmd20]

I'm just wondering how "dude who is worse than Josh fucking Johnson" would have helped the 49ers at all in that game. You guys got unlucky with injuries in a big spot, it happens.

Presumably having a QB who can actually throw is better than having a QB who cannot.

But it really was just a bad break, what can you do, an emergency QB was not beating Philly. Philly didn't even try in the 2nd half of the game on offense.

 

[rodderick]

Presumably having a QB who can actually throw is better than having a QB who cannot.

But it really was just a bad break, what can you do, an emergency QB was not beating Philly. Philly didn't even try in the 2nd half of the game on offense.

Their 2nd QB already was a guy who couldn't throw. They weren't noncompetitive in that game because Johnson got hurt, they were noncompetitive because Purdy got hurt. What would a guy that's behind Johnson in the depth chart accomplish? He'd be the 49ers' 5th option at QB. Who's overcoming a big deficit in a playoff game with that guy?

 

[johnmd20]

Their 2nd QB already was a guy who couldn't throw. They weren't noncompetitive in that game because Johnson got hurt, they were noncompetitive because Purdy got hurt. What would a guy that's behind Johnson in the depth chart accomplish? He'd be the 49ers' 5th option at QB. Who's overcoming a big deficit in a playoff game with that guy?

The odds of winning when you have a QB who can actually throw the ball must be higher than the odds when you have a QB who cannot throw. Johnson can actually throw the ball forward.

But I did say that an emergency QB wouldn't beat Philly. So I agree, not arguing otherwise.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

The odds of winning when you have a QB who can actually throw the ball must be higher than the odds when you have a QB who cannot throw. Johnson can actually throw the ball forward.

But I did say that an emergency QB wouldn't beat Philly. So I agree, not arguing otherwise.

a) Kyle Shanahan has a ridiculous injury rate with his QBs that dates back to his time in Washington.
b) On the two plays where his QBs got hurt, he had Hasson Reddick, an elite edge rusher, being blocked 1:1 by a TE with no assistance, on the road. I can't even begin to fathom how stupid that is.
c) As noted by others, they made an active decision not to bring a 3rd QB.
d) The Philadelphia Eagles have a 3rd string QB on the active roster for the game.

The whining about the emergency QB needing to be brought back is beyond ludicrous.

 

[trekfan55]

The game was over when Purdy got hurt. Said so watching live.

Johnson proved useless and even dropped a "perfect" snap that gave the Eagles the ball in good field position. There is only so much a defense can do and they held longer than expected. This game was tied into the 2nd quarter.

I really don't know what the deal is with Lyle Shanahan and QBs.