NFL Playoffs - Championship Round

Remagellan

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Counting fouls is cherry picking to the nth degree, proves nothing and is meaningless 40 years after the fact.

Nonetheless the 76ers won in 7 the next year. Go figure. They were two great teams that played in very
memorable series.
Everything in sports is meaningless 40 seconds after the fact. But the scars from our youth run deeper. It's why 1978 will always hurt more for me than 1986 and 2003.
 

8slim

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The internet is never wrong. I could point out shit that I saw (like not calling forward progress to be stopped near the end of the 1st half, thus giving Cincy the equivalent of an extra time out, and others), but there are always bad calls. Too bad the faux controversy overshadows a pretty amazing effort by a defense with an essentially all-rookie secondary against a really fucking good Bengal offense and an offense with one legitimate WR and a one-legged QB against a really fucking good Bengal defense. Whatever, peace.
Man, go celebrate somewhere. The calls were awful. Its OK, you don’t have to admit it. You’re in the SB.
 

Shelterdog

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Counting fouls is cherry picking to the nth degree, proves nothing and is meaningless 40 years after the fact.

Nonetheless the 76ers won in 7 the next year. Go figure. They were two great teams that played in very
memorable series.
In honor of the 81 sixers star Daryl Dawkins would name this post “bill firch whining stern conspiring Robert parish fedex supplying ml carr high fiving remagellen crying Mchale elbowing dr j impregnating larry bird mvp’ing wham
Bam bag job in hand i am rigged officiating”
 

Al Zarilla

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I was just wondering what's one degree short of the meteor strike. I have no love for the Eagles, and absolutely loathe the Chiefs and their fans, but a meteor strike would screw up things for the rest of us humans on Earth for a long time. I'd like to see a flock of diarrheic pigeons deciding to swarm in Arizona and continually fly over the stadium just before kickoff.
It doesn't have to be a dinosaur size extinction event, maybe just a 5 foot hole between the 40 yard lines. Let the geniuses at NFL HQ figure it out from there.
 

bankshot1

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Everything in sports is meaningless 40 seconds after the fact. But the scars from our youth run deeper. It's why 1978 will always hurt more for me than 1986 and 2003.
That series was the best most intense and maybe had more HoF talent than any non Finals series EVER. It was The N B A as it should be.
And as best as I can tell in a war of a
7 game series your primary objection is mostly an adverse outcome that took 7 games to get to.
 

Marciano490

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This focus on rings for GOAT status is a bit Brady-friendly. We don’t really count rings for other sports. Is Pedro not the GOAT pitcher?
 

Remagellan

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And you guys traded Moses Malone and Braud Daugherty for Jeff Ruland and Roy Hinson
No, we (Sixers fans) didn't--Harold Katz did. I'm pretty sure there wasn't a single Sixers fan happy with those trades. Katz argued they were good moves because the Sixers played well without Moses in the playoffs that past season, which ended with them losing in seven games to the Bucks in the second round. To which I would say to him if I could, "When did losing to the Bucks in the second round in seven games become the measure of a successful season?"

Now I'm done with this. I'm going to go watch The Last of Us to try to cheer myself up. Peace be with you all.
 
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Salva135

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He might not need 7, but he needs...at least 4. Because Montana is still there.

The numbers in this era of passing distort things, and I wish there was some sort of passer rating + stat kind of like ops+ or era+ that takes into account the era in which these guys played. If he doesn't get this one this year, suddenly he's 1-2 in Super Bowls and it's another season where he doesn't get his second. But at 2-1, he's on a really good track to get to 4 or 5.

Again though, let's see how things shake out. He won't have Kelce forever, and his contract will eat up far more of the salary cap at some point, and at some point Reid will retire and he's been amazing for the Chiefs. Lots of stuff can happen here to get in the way of crowning Mahomes the GOAT.

I'd be shocked if he doesn't get 4. He's knocking on the doorstep of 2 as we speak, and it could be 4 already. And Brady gets the benefit of the passing era distortion for more of his career than he didn't.

Mahomes doesn't need Kelce any more than Brady needed Gronk, just like he didn't need Tyreek. Mahomes is Brady with more mobility and improvisational skills. He has the killer mindset, the ability to turn nobodies into NFL receivers, and greats into GOATs.

His biggest challenge will be durability. I've never seen Brady lessen his play due to injury other than perhaps a thumb. Mahomes can get hurt and it alters his effectiveness at times. He's not built like Brady, certainly doesn't train like Brady, and doesn't play like him, so I doubt he matches Brady's longevity numbers. But he's got everything else.
 

lars10

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Counting fouls is cherry picking to the nth degree, proves nothing and is meaningless 40 years after the fact.

Nonetheless the 76ers won in 7 the next year. Go figure. They were two great teams that played in very
memorable series.
He also left out Parish and McHale that didn’t really help his argument.. but also Dawkins

the FT disparity is bad but not egregious.. like Game 2 against Miami where rondo went off for 44.. but the heat shot 47 free throws to 29.. forty seven..
 

DukeSox

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This focus on rings for GOAT status is a bit Brady-friendly. We don’t really count rings for other sports. Is Pedro not the GOAT pitcher?
Different sport. Would be similar if MLB pitchers pitched every game.
 

lars10

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I'd be shocked if he doesn't get 4. He's knocking on the doorstep of 2 as we speak, and it could be 4 already. And Brady gets the benefit of the passing era distortion for more of his career than he didn't.

Mahomes doesn't need Kelce any more than Brady needed Gronk, just like he didn't need Tyreek. Mahomes is Brady with more mobility and improvisational skills. He has the killer mindset, the ability to turn nobodies into NFL receivers, and greats into GOATs.

His biggest challenge will be durability. I've never seen Brady lessen his play due to injury other than perhaps a thumb. Mahomes can get hurt and it alters his effectiveness at times. He's not built like Brady, certainly doesn't train like Brady, and doesn't play like him, so I doubt he matches Brady's longevity numbers. But he's got everything else.
is the bolded really true? I’m trying to think of any players he’s made great.. and that’s not to slight him.. but Hill and Kelce were both pretty freakin good. What other superstars has he made? Maybe some of the RBs? But his receivers especially this year haven’t been greats.

I think he’s a great qb but I’m trying to think of an Edelman type or any number of WRs Brady had on his team that he made into good WRs that were basically nobodies before they go there.

I’m not as familiar with the chiefs rosters over the years tho
 

8slim

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The league should allow intentional grounding. It’s silly to make the QB throw it at some RBs feet but not an OLman. If you want to protect QBs just let them ground. Another rule that doesn’t need to exist yet complicates the game.
 

Mystic Merlin

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The league should allow intentional grounding. It’s silly to make the QB throw it at some RBs feet but not an OLman. If you want to protect QBs just let them ground. Another rule that doesn’t need to exist yet complicates the game.
You would all but eliminate sacks from the game with that rule change.
 

Al Zarilla

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Pardon me for continuing the NBA diversion, but there was a moment of absolute dread for a Celtic fan at the end of game seven in '81. The Celtics were ahead by one point with time for just one more play, a throw-in by the Sixers in the Celtics end. The camera scanned from behind the Sixer player throwing it in all the way to the basket. Believe it or not, there was Dr. J by himself underneath the basket. I felt oh no, there goes the seven game series. For some reason, the inbound guy didn't throw it to him, must've had a play they were going with, didn't see him, whatever.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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That all sounds pretty reasonable. The refs were terrible overall but these two situations seemed to be handled appropriately.
I don’t know. He says that after the play the field judge said he had tried to stop the play but nobody heard him. So they consulted and decided do over. That sounds like a too late situation to me. At that point does It make any sense at all to ignore a play that just happened and which you were too late to stop just to add two seconds to the clock?

Also, they didn’t exactly “reset” the play clock. They added literally one second. From 9 to 10. And as mentioned above, it was the ref who said to wind the game clock. From the initial bad spot to the do over after they couldn’t shut the play down in time the whole thing was awful.

One only hopes that if the Chiefs had gotten a first down, they would have decided after the fact that it was no play. We will never know.
 

jon abbey

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I don’t know. He says that after the play the field judge said he had tried to stop the play but nobody heard him. So they consulted and decided do over. That sounds like a too late situation to me. At that point does It make any sense at all to ignore a play that just happened and which you were too late to stop just to add two seconds to the clock?
Isn't the issue here that maybe some of the players heard him so it possibly affected the play?
 

patinorange

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Cincinnati was in control and elected to try deep shots on 2nd & 3 AND 3rd & 3 (long armpunt pick). Despite KC having no offense at the end, CIN lost control of the game right there. They were close to getting it back but the intentional grounding - sack combo with their shitty OL guaranteed no regulation win, then the roughing ended it.
The bad officiating kind of masks the questionable play calling in the last two drives Cincy had. Reminiscent of the gag job coaching in last year's Super Bowl.
 

Salva135

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is the bolded really true? I’m trying to think of any players he’s made great.. and that’s not to slight him.. but Hill and Kelce were both pretty freakin good. What other superstars has he made? Maybe some of the RBs? But his receivers especially this year haven’t been greats.

I think he’s a great qb but I’m trying to think of an Edelman type or any number of WRs Brady had on his team that he made into good WRs that were basically nobodies before they go there.

I’m not as familiar with the chiefs rosters over the years tho
Well, he led the league in yards and touchdowns, so if you can't name anybody he made great, then I guess that's an even bigger point for him?

I think I was alluding to the fact that many thought Tyreek was a key to his excellence, and he dominated without missing a beat without his HOF-level WR1. That's Brady-like. I can't name a single Chiefs WR. You take away the most dominant player in the game (ala Moss '07) and he adapts his game, finds new receivers, and delivers another MVP season.

And as good as Kelce is, they scheme him open like crazy, I never see him overpowering DBs like Gronk, he's just always in the right position for a huge gain in space. He's amazing, but he's not in decline any time soon.
 
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rodderick

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This focus on rings for GOAT status is a bit Brady-friendly. We don’t really count rings for other sports. Is Pedro not the GOAT pitcher?
Pitchers control team success a whole lot less than quarterbacks, so it's different. I think it's natural to give a lot of weight to rings when judging a position that disproportionately impacts wins and losses more than arguably any other in any other sport. Obviously, if Mahomes wins 5 Lombardis, he'll have an argument if the rest of his career is up to par, but when one guy has won seven, it's hard to be in the conversation with anything less than 4, I'd say.
 

lexrageorge

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I'm not sure if the question being asked in the Mahomes vs Brady comparison is peak or career. Looking at career accomplishments, the number of Lombardi's absolutely has to be in the discussion as a criterion. Not the only one, but a factor nonetheless, especially given that one of them requires 2 hands to wear all of his.

Another key criterion, IMHO, is how the QB performed when forced to throw 50+ passes in a game. Most QB's, even in today's NFL, have losing records when they log more than 50 attempts. Mahomes has done it 5 times, and has a 3-2 record, which is quite impressive. Now look at Brady's record for doing the same..... system QB my ass. Still, Mahomes probably has the best chance of any active QB not named Bailey Zappe to meet or exceed some of Brady's career accomplishments.

Now, as for peak QB play, it's a much closer argument, and Mahomes may not even be at his peak yet.
 

rodderick

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I'm not sure if the question being asked in the Mahomes vs Brady comparison is peak or career. Looking at career accomplishments, the number of Lombardi's absolutely has to be in the discussion as a criterion. Not the only one, but a factor nonetheless, especially given that one of them requires 2 hands to wear all of his.

Another key criterion, IMHO, is how the QB performed when forced to throw 50+ passes in a game. Most QB's, even in today's NFL, have losing records when they log more than 50 attempts. Mahomes has done it 5 times, and has a 3-2 record, which is quite impressive. Now look at Brady's record for doing the same..... system QB my ass. Still, Mahomes probably has the best chance of any active QB not named Bailey Zappe to meet or exceed some of Brady's career accomplishments.

Now, as for peak QB play, it's a much closer argument, and Mahomes may not even be at his peak yet.
Mahomes' first 5 seasons stack up really well to Brady and Manning's 5 year peak, his start has been insane. But there's always a chance he's Dan Marino and peaks really early and never reaches these heights again.
 

johnmd20

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I'm not sure if the question being asked in the Mahomes vs Brady comparison is peak or career. Looking at career accomplishments, the number of Lombardi's absolutely has to be in the discussion as a criterion. Not the only one, but a factor nonetheless, especially given that one of them requires 2 hands to wear all of his.

Another key criterion, IMHO, is how the QB performed when forced to throw 50+ passes in a game. Most QB's, even in today's NFL, have losing records when they log more than 50 attempts. Mahomes has done it 5 times, and has a 3-2 record, which is quite impressive. Now look at Brady's record for doing the same..... system QB my ass. Still, Mahomes probably has the best chance of any active QB not named Bailey Zappe to meet or exceed some of Brady's career accomplishments.

Now, as for peak QB play, it's a much closer argument, and Mahomes may not even be at his peak yet.
Tom Brady hasn't been called a system quarterback in 15 years. Nobody is alleging Tom Brady was just in the right place at the right time. Nobody is alleging Tom Brady isn't the best QB of all time.

But Mahomes' first five years are impressive as hell, up there with any other QB in their first five yeas, including Tom Bady. That's all. And it's ok. There is room for both.
 

8slim

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People who are really invested in Brady being the greatest QB of all-time are going to have to get used to their being a potential challenger every few seasons for the next few decades. It's the nature of the sports discussion beast.

Mahomes is phenomenal. I can't believe there's a take that he doesn't make those around him better. Just look at some of his completions yesterday. Guy is pure silk back there, just always moving with his eyes downfield to find someone. He's an assassin.
 

BigSoxFan

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People who are really invested in Brady being the greatest QB of all-time are going to have to get used to their being a potential challenger every few seasons for the next few decades. It's the nature of the sports discussion beast.

Mahomes is phenomenal. I can't believe there's a take that he doesn't make those around him better. Just look at some of his completions yesterday. Guy is pure silk back there, just always moving with his eyes downfield to find someone. He's an assassin.
Mahomes is incredible. The coverage of him is over-the-top but who really cares. He’s earned it. If it weren’t for TB12 being stupid good, Mahomes would be a 27 year-old going for his 4th SB title. With Kelce turning 34 next season, this feels like an important game for the Mahomes legacy talk though. It’ll be very hard to get out of the AFC in the coming years so you just never know.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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They should cut the rule book in half. Or more. If they’re going to be this bad and get so much wrong, then the league should stop overregulating the game.

Make most holds legal, most DPIs, blocks in the back, etc.Just call the egregious stuff. They’re clearly not capable of accurately enforcing the current massive rule book.
This is the way. The games would run much smoother even if you only eliminated select rules like the Polian Crybaby Penalty.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Mahomes' first 5 seasons stack up really well to Brady and Manning's 5 year peak, his start has been insane. But there's always a chance he's Dan Marino and peaks really early and never reaches these heights again.
Mahomes' start has been fantastic and yet even then he's lost 2 AFCCG at home (one of which was because he threw an INT in OT), lost a SB in an embarrassing blowout, and won a SB because SF's defense imploded and Jimmy G missed a WIDE open throw for a GW touchdown.

He's had a great start and yet he's still nowhere near Brady. The comparisons should stop because there is no comparison. Let Mahomes be this consistently great for the next ten years and maybe we can start the convo.
 

rodderick

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People who are really invested in Brady being the greatest QB of all-time are going to have to get used to their being a potential challenger every few seasons for the next few decades. It's the nature of the sports discussion beast.

Mahomes is phenomenal. I can't believe there's a take that he doesn't make those around him better. Just look at some of his completions yesterday. Guy is pure silk back there, just always moving with his eyes downfield to find someone. He's an assassin.
Sure, but just like it took LeBron having a decade+ of consistent success before people started talking about him in relation to Jordan, there is no argument for Mahomes yet. He is the undisputed greatest of his generation at this point but even that can change in 3-5 years.
 

BaseballJones

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Mahomes' start has been fantastic and yet even then he's lost 2 AFCCG at home (one of which was because he threw an INT in OT), lost a SB in an embarrassing blowout, and won a SB because SF's defense imploded and Jimmy G missed a WIDE open throw for a GW touchdown.

He's had a great start and yet he's still nowhere near Brady. The comparisons should stop because there is no comparison. Let Mahomes be this consistently great for the next ten years and maybe we can start the convo.
Yep, it's absolutely no disrespect to Brady to say that Mahomes' start to his career has been unfathomably great, both in terms of team success (3 trips to the SB, 5 straight trips to the AFCCG) and individual performance (will win his 2nd MVP this year, and has put up insane numbers), possibly even greater than Brady's first 6 years - (well all except SB titles, it is).

But it's also absolutely no disrespect to Mahomes to say that he isn't remotely in Brady's class YET, mainly because Brady's overall career accomplishments are so unfathomable, and have occurred over such a long period of time, that in order for Mahomes to get there he has to play at an elite level for a LOT longer, and accomplish a hell of a lot more than he has, just to even really start that conversation. There is no disrespect in saying that your career isn't yet anywhere close to the match of a guy who has been to 10 Super Bowls, won 7 of them, been a 15x pro bowler, won 3 MVPs, 5 Super Bowl MVPs, has won more than any other player in the history of the sport, and is still playing at a pro bowl level in his MID FORTIES.
 

glennhoffmania

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Isn't the issue here that maybe some of the players heard him so it possibly affected the play?
Yes. That's the point. One of the seven officials was blowing his whistle and was out of position. Since the others didn't hear him they didn't stop the play from happening. But in that situation a play should not count.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Also, Mahomes' habit of running along the sidelines on QB runs and then pretending to be about to step out of bounds only to try to get a few more yards is extremely risky and at some point a defender is going to say "to hell with the 15 yards" and destroy him. Both he and Josh Allen do that to take advantage of the QB protections and it's annoying to watch and a defender is going to crush him doing it.
 

loshjott

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Incredibly, Mahomes has never played a road playoff game (SBs excluded, of course). Brady had played two in the first mini dynasty (2-0, both vs Pittsburgh of course). Then he went 1-2 on the road in the playoffs following the 05-06 seasons, then lost twice at Denver after the 2013 and 15 seasons. Then went 4-0 on the road starting in KC, then 3 games for the Bucs. Brady is 7-4 in true road playoff games.

What's my point? Not sure, other than Mahomes has "played from ahead" his whole career thus far.
 

BaseballJones

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Yep. On the flip side, Brady played the vast, vast majority of his career in the "2 teams get a bye" era. Mahomes will now not have that for the rest of his career. So it should be, in theory, harder to get to the AFCCG under these rules. Of course, someone else needs to supplant KC as the #1 seed in order for that to even matter. But I'd love to have seen KC have to play the Patriots in the WC round, then Cincinnati in the divisional round, and then Buffalo in Buffalo in the AFCCG, and see how they handle that. It's hard to bet against Mahomes, but that's a MUCH more difficult road than getting a bye, then playing Jacksonville at home in the divisional round, and then playing Cincy at home in the AFCCG. It's always hard getting to the Super Bowl, but one of those roads is MUCH more difficult than the other.
 

trekfan55

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The whole Mahomes vs Brady thing is still premature.

Brady has had an otherwordly carrer. I had a big discussion with my nephew years ago about Montana vs Brady. He cited some numbers, I countered, Montana had 4 rings, Montana had that drive in Super Bowl 23, etc. Then Brady kept going. And he did 28-3. And he won another superbowl in Tampa bay. Hell, Megatron started to play and retired and was elected to the Hall of Fame DURING Brady's career.

So yeah, the 5 years we have ssen from Mahomes have been amazing, and if he gets 2 rings out of them we can keep talking, but career wise it's not even close.

And I'm not a Patriots fan (I do like the Pats a lot but I root for my 9ers)
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Ironically, I thought the ankle injury that prevented Mahomes from doing his usual "run 30 yards backwards before throwing a dart to Kelce" routine actually made him better yesterday; he stayed in the pocked longer and didn't try to play stupid hero ball, which had cost KC in the past. Yes he still scrambled a bit but he calmed down in the pocket and I think he was the better for it.
 

Pablo's TB Lover

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I'm not sure if the question being asked in the Mahomes vs Brady comparison is peak or career. Looking at career accomplishments, the number of Lombardi's absolutely has to be in the discussion as a criterion. Not the only one, but a factor nonetheless, especially given that one of them requires 2 hands to wear all of his.

Another key criterion, IMHO, is how the QB performed when forced to throw 50+ passes in a game. Most QB's, even in today's NFL, have losing records when they log more than 50 attempts. Mahomes has done it 5 times, and has a 3-2 record, which is quite impressive. Now look at Brady's record for doing the same..... system QB my ass. Still, Mahomes probably has the best chance of any active QB not named Bailey Zappe to meet or exceed some of Brady's career accomplishments.

Now, as for peak QB play, it's a much closer argument, and Mahomes may not even be at his peak yet.
It's a tall task to compare these QBs until Mahomes has a little more mileage, as he was "born on third base" as far as the system he started out in. Not knocking this, it should put him in a better position and build more confidence for when the supporting cast is not as great but he has the experience to be a better QB. But it remains to be seen if a normal QB peak will apply to him, he'll simply plateau at the current level (which would mean a top 1 or 2 all-time career), or his stats will diminish and how much once guys like Kelce and Andy Reid (to name 2 people who also contributed a lot to the KC success) depart.

Brady's start of career had many misfit toys, but at the same time his defense in the early 2000s gets more of the "credit pie" for the Pats success than the Chiefs defense of the past 5 years. Brady did not hit the stacked offense era Mahomes has now until 2007 starting out at the WR position, then continuing through the AH and Gronk dual threat. It wasn't until this period was well underway that I was thinking Brady's stats could become almost as impressive as his Super Bowl resume. But funny enough his mid-career was also a championship desert, partially due to just dumb luck. Which goes to show you kind of need a balanced review of stats plus championships to evaluate the best of all time, it can't be one or the other.

Mahomes passed one potential pitfall these past few years, and that is over-reliance on his legs at the expense of taking too many clean hits, and therefore being prone to injury. He has really done well moving within the pocket and throwing darts without needing to roll out and go the RPO route more than a few times per game. The injury Mahomes sustained last week was due to a sketchy takedown just out of the pocket, so it's not evidence to me that he is injury prone going forward.