Wrong thread, but as Small Forward has become Wing, can we get rid of the term “Guard” for guys like Luka and Kyrie who can’t/don’t?
National Celtics discourse
- Thread starter RorschachsMask
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OK. Probably will skip the podcast anyways.
Started listening to the latest Dunker's Spot podcast. I think Steve Jones Jr. has basically pegged the series correctly - BOS is great at making adjustments on offense and doesn't have to make any on defense. BOS has lots of ways to win; DAL has one (Luka and Kyrie have to both go off).
Both Duncan and Jones Jr. were very complimentary of the second-half adjustments that BOS made to deal with DAL putting their C in a zone - better detailed by the Thinking Basketball guys posted above (or one of these threads).
Fact is the media is angry for the Celtics completely exposing Luka’s defense on an embarrassing level. Only when we went up 3-0 did the face-saving course correction start.
IIRC Brad's breakdown was always "Big", "Wing", and "Ballhandler". That works. Luka and Kyrie handle the ball a shitload.
"The British are coming" was a fact. We already knew that the Celtics were playing the Mavericks in the Finals. Partnow didn't have a midnight ride. He's the guy that came through the next day with little British flags saying we had no chance against the mighty empire. That motherfucker probably got shot.
Every few weeks there's been a new boogey man for the Celts:
At the beginning of the season it was Giannis and Dame that was going to totally own the Celtics.
Then the rejuvenated Sixers.
Then the up-and-coming Knicks.
When the playoff started, good golly you had to watch out for the Heat. They had the Celtics number!
Then it was the frisky Cavs.
Then the Pacers were going to give them a go.
While in the West no one was going to topple the reigning champs, the Nuggets.
Until someone did and then the Celts couldn't stop the next Michael Jordan and the TWolves.
Then it was the Mavs with the greatest back court in history. Why, the Celtics would be lucky to get two points off this budding dynasty.
I get that saying the Celtics are really good and they look tough and almost unbeatable might be boring to 95% of the country, but good lord the amount of gymnastics that people do NOT to say that is amazing. If you have even the slightest amount of memory, it just makes people look really dumb.
It's really bizarre how in love they are with this whining prick. There are much more likeable stars on many teams. I don't think it's a racial thing either.
I agree it’s not a racial thing. I don’t really understand why so many media guys hate Harden’s ball dominant approach, but love watching Luka dribble. The same heliocentric criticisms that apply to Harden teams - like teammates not feeling fully involved unless it’s covering for the star defensively - should apply to Luka.
To be fair, there was a lot of national media who talked about how close it was in last year’s Nuggets-Lakers series.
Also: the narrative of the folks who picked Dallas was that Boston isn’t as good as their numbers and Luka is so good, maybe the best player in the world, that he will beat them nearly by himself.
So when it goes the other way, spectacularly, what do they say? Boston is much better than we told you? Luka is much worse than we claimed? We were still right, somehow? It’s Kyrie’s fault? What?
Also: the narrative of the folks who picked Dallas was that Boston isn’t as good as their numbers and Luka is so good, maybe the best player in the world, that he will beat them nearly by himself.
So when it goes the other way, spectacularly, what do they say? Boston is much better than we told you? Luka is much worse than we claimed? We were still right, somehow? It’s Kyrie’s fault? What?
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I do find it interesting that SAS' point is Luka should be deferring to Kyrie when Kyrie is doing well (accurate!), but JT gets punished for not taking over games or whatever when JB is doing well
The media LOVES guys that will stir the pot, and Luka has to be on the short list of biggest trash talkers in the league today, especially among the stars. Not too many of the top players in the league do that right now (it's part of the Ant fascination too, it's not just the athleticism).
They'll love to kill him, too. Guys that talk are great to talk about, and it will absolutely go both ways. I said it before, he's gonna get shredded the longer he goes without a title. It won't be as bad as Lebron in 2011, but it will absolutely be worse than Tatum (especially if he gets close and fails).
Ultimately I think that last part is why Embiid skates by relatively unchallenged. He never even gets close, he gets slapped hard for failing out of the playoffs again, then there's another 5-8 weeks of basketball, and by the time the offseason starts, everyone has forgotten about him. He's not a relevant figure in the championship landscape.
True, but I feel like the narrative is he should be more like Kobe or whatever and keep hoisting shots until he gets it right. Clearly what the Cs are doing is working and that means JT not putting up every shot every position. I can live with some bad shots and shots that miss... it's when its *every* shot that's an issue.
Yeah, what's the opposite of "damning by faint praise"? Tatum took a few bad shots. They had around 100 possessions. Pretty much every primary scorer takes a few bad shots. But the fact that they were that noticeable shows how well the offense is actually cooking right now. Felt like half of Dallas's shots in game 3 were contested fadeaways.
Yup. Look no further than Kyrie’s shot with about 50 seconds left down 102-98. That awful off balanced 3 on Horford. That was a horrible situational shot.
FWIW, if anyone has a little PTSD of Tatum falling in love with the step back 3 after 10 dribbles, don't feel like you're being judged for it. It definitely was a thing in the past. But it seems that it's more of an aberration now than falling back into bad habits. This team is disciplined AF.
Cutting and pasting this and sending it out. If it comes back to you, decent chance it’s my fault.
It's worse. He received the inbound pass with about 43 seconds left and dribbled until there was about 25 seconds left before he shot, which meant that the best case scenario - i.e., the shot goes in - was that Dallas was fouling on the next possession rather than playing defense.
It was much worse than that. They got the ball with 42 seconds left down 102-98 and he burned 17 of those seconds before taking that shot at :25. He burned nearly half the clock left while his team was down two possessions and also ensured that they couldn't go 2 for 1 and would have to foul even if he made the shot. It was worst case scenario situational decision making.
Edit: Or pretty much exactly what jmcc5400 said right before me.
This one from KOC is pretty fun to read in, with hindsight. The recommendations:
- Fire Mazzulla
- Trade Jaylen
- Worry about Horford
- Give Grant more playing time, once JB is gone
(he does correctly recommend shaking up Brogdon and Smart)
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2023/5/30/23742125/boston-celtics-jaylen-brown-joe-mazzulla-rumors-trades-offseason
- Fire Mazzulla
- Trade Jaylen
- Worry about Horford
- Give Grant more playing time, once JB is gone
(he does correctly recommend shaking up Brogdon and Smart)
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2023/5/30/23742125/boston-celtics-jaylen-brown-joe-mazzulla-rumors-trades-offseason
You guys just proved the point about SoSH being able to take over the beat across the league.
And the Jaylen trade is centered on acquiring one of Dame, LaMelo Ball, or Beal as a replacement. That’s a tough look for KOC in retrospect, and more importantly that is a curious recommendation to have made at the time.
Loved the audio they got from G3 where Tatum was talking about not taking those shots and said "me especially" or something to that effect. Of course he then took a few but he definitely knows!
to be fair, "constantly being a moron in public" is a tough look in general, but he pulls it off!
I don't think he really did. Here are his shots (see Video and Shotcharts | Stats | NBA.com ):
- Turnaround over Kryie with the shot clock running down. I think the play was designed to get JT the ball against Kryie, who played decent defense. I wouldn't say this was a bad shot given the circumstances.
- Drove baseline against Lively after beating double-team and put up a shot at the rim. JT thought he was pushed and he probably was. He didn't really have any other options. Definitely not a bad shot.
- Driving shot against Green with the shot-clock winding down. Drew like 15 defenders; JB had wide-open tip.
- The Dunk
- 1:34 left of the clock; Cs up 4. JT gets the ball with 10 on the shot clock and waits for the shot clock to wind down and then puts up the step-back.
Ah, yeah, you're both right. That final minute was a blur for me but makes it even worse. He basically combined hero ball with terrible strategy. And we all know the double standard if Tatum were to do something like that.
Gotta say, I'm loving Windhorst recently. He wraps up this video with a mic drop
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux7YofJwq28
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux7YofJwq28
That Kyrie shot (ignoring the time - just atrocious clock management from one of the anointed all-time best closers or whatever) was the kind of shot that in years past it feels like the Cs would make trying to force the issue and it rarely worked. It was nice being on the other side. As soon as it left his hands, I was pretty sure it was going to be a brick.
Reddick was offered a job as assistant coach by Mazzulla earlier this year, so I suspect they talked a LOT about Mazzulla's vision and goals for this team.
Not that Kryie needs defending but this isn't really the way it went. True Kryie got the ball at 42 seconds, but he didn't just dribble aimlesly while burning the clock out.
Because the ball went out-of-bounds on the previous play, DAL was taking it on jus above the baseline. Not a great place to receive the pass plus Jrue was able to hound him from teh get go so he was trying bring the ball up without turning it over. He didn't get into the half-court set up until about 33 seconds remaining and Green didn't come up to set the pick with Horford on him until 30 seconds remaining. There was no way that anyone but KI should be taking that shot. He only took five seconds to get the shot up once he got Al on him. The shot was probably as good as any he was going to get given who was on the floor for DAL and BOS.
One team always wins and one team always loses (and credit/blame is always apportioned about 50-50), but in this case, I credit the Celtics defense, rather than hit the Mavs offense, for failing to take advantage of the 2 for 1. Holiday picked up Kyrie full court and made him work for every step (it took 7 seconds to cross half court), and forcing a switch for Kyrie (their only shot creator) to be guarded by Horford (the Celtics worst on ball defender on the court vs quick guards) was absolutely the right move. Dallas got exactly what they wanted, it just took too long (credit Holiday for making it difficult) and Kyrie couldn't get a good look (credit Horford for incredible defense).
*edit - or exactly what WBCD said above.
Greenberg's schtick encapsulates the genre. "The best I've ever seen." One of them was when he was 15. And, who the fuck is Mike Greenberg, such as "he's seen it" matters?
Who's the "Alan" guy? (and the 72 Lakers beat a Knicks team that was missing the MVP from the Finals in 70 and 73. Context my ass.)
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What a pivot in two months from ‘is this Celtics team really that good’ to ‘will playoff demons sunk this good team/can they win close games’ to ‘would a Finals win really be all that impressive’ to ‘is this an all-time run?’
Of course, this latest wrinkle just allows them to maintain some negative framing by qualifying the title (‘yeah well THEYRE STILL NOT THE 96 Bulls, 86 Celtics, or 17 Warriors!!!’). But talk about not owning your own bullshit you’ve spewed for months.
Of course, this latest wrinkle just allows them to maintain some negative framing by qualifying the title (‘yeah well THEYRE STILL NOT THE 96 Bulls, 86 Celtics, or 17 Warriors!!!’). But talk about not owning your own bullshit you’ve spewed for months.
There are two far more likable stars on the other side of the court.. and that’s if you ignore Drue and DW as most of the media have..
If the Celts win tonite they could be one of the best teams ever with almost no recognition.
Just wait for the "if this team is so good why have they only won one championship" takes. They'll be fun.
Actually, I was surprised at how quickly and how savagely much of the media turned on Luka after Game 3 -- a response I attribute to the fact that so many media pundits had staked themselves on the narrative of "Luka's intangibles will win the series for the Mavs." They feel betrayed, in my opinion, and for the last day and a half they're taking it out on their disgraced golden boy.
Had to look it up. Looks like Alan Hahn, who works for MSG as well as MSG. Alan Hahn - Wikipedia
One thing that comes to mind after reading your post - those 7-8 seconds that Jrue made Kryie use up bringing up the ball is the kind of thing that no one notices but really impacts winning. A lot of guards wouldn't bother, and of the ones that would, some of them would get called for fouls.
But Jrue is so good at moving his feet, he knows that he can pick up Kryie full court, make him use time, and not foul - and possibly do the same to Kryie as he did to Nembhard.
The bolded is the truth. We love Tatum because he's a really thoughtful family man who seems to have simple pleasures and looks like he just came out of an Archie comic, but he's milquetoast for the national media and it's hard to get someone in California to care about him. Even Jaylen, who does sometimes say and do controversial things, is hard to write about because he's so clearly well-versed in the things he cares about that the media aren't all that interested in engaging and doing the research. Plus, he's a superstar in the community. BORING.
Luka has to be great because it's no fun tearing down someone no one cares about. First you have to create the rock star, then you can get people to care about him doing blow with hookers.
If I remember correctly part (if not all) of that dribbling around was because of some super intense and incredible defense by Jrue. Once they got the switch, Kyrie went pretty quickly against Horford
Gotta say I don't love the "it's over vibe" right now. I get what history says, but still, let's finish the job first. I loved the Tatum mic drop but "win it again next year?" umm let's win it this year first.
And if they win more than one, the question pivots to: "Is the NBA as good as it used to be? Where are the superstars?"
100%, as others have pointed out. I agree that Jrue's on-ball defense probably deserves more love than Kyrie does criticism. In rewatching that sequence, the Celts got really lucky PJW's corner three didn't go down with :50 left, that was a good look - and find by Kyrie.