Most talented Pats team of all time

Smiling Joe Hesketh · Oct 10, 2023

By DVOA the 2007 Pats were the best team in franchise history (52.9) and the second-best of all time behind the 1991 Washington club. The 2004 Pats were among the top 20 at 34.2. The 2010 and 2012 teams were high up there as well via DVOA.

slamminsammya · Oct 10, 2023

Its 07 and I don't think it's at all close. Randy Moss has a case for being a top ten player ever at his peak, which he was, Brady at the peak of his powers, Welker was probably the best in his role ever, also at his peak.

tims4wins · Oct 10, 2023

slamminsammya said:
Its 07 and I don't think it's at all close. Randy Moss has a case for being a top ten player ever at his peak, which he was, Brady at the peak of his powers, Welker was probably the best in his role ever, also at his peak.

Flip side, almost all of the defensive players were better in 2004. Vrabel, Bruschi, Seymour, Ty Law, Willie, Rodney, Colvin, Ty Warren. Maybe the only guy who was better in 2007 than 2004 was Wilfork.

Vinatieri was also better than 2nd year Gost.

slamminsammya · Oct 10, 2023

tims4wins said:
Flip side, almost all of the defensive players were better in 2004. Vrabel, Bruschi, Seymour, Ty Law, Willie, Rodney, Colvin, Ty Warren. Maybe the only guy who was better in 2007 than 2004 was Wilfork.

Vinatieri was also better than 2nd year Gost.

Sure, but the gaps are much much smaller IMO. Vrabel had 12.5 sacks in 07, was he even better in 04? Asante Samuel and Ty Law match up pretty well at that point in their respective careers.

rodderick · Oct 10, 2023

In terms of talent it's the 2007 team and honestly second place would probably belong to the 2008 team had Brady not gotten hurt. That team was just as loaded and they faced the 4th easiest schedule in the league after having a very tough one in 2007. I don't think that team loses more than two games with Brady under center the whole season and they'd have a real shot at 16-0 again, not even being hyperbolic.

slamminsammya · Oct 10, 2023

tims4wins said:
Flip side, almost all of the defensive players were better in 2004. Vrabel, Bruschi, Seymour, Ty Law, Willie, Rodney, Colvin, Ty Warren. Maybe the only guy who was better in 2007 than 2004 was Wilfork.

Vinatieri was also better than 2nd year Gost.

Ty Warren was also 1st team all pro in 07, and not in 04, for what thats worth.

tims4wins · Oct 10, 2023

slamminsammya said:
Ty Warren was also 1st team all pro in 07, and not in 04, for what thats worth.

You mean Vince? I mentioned him. He was 2nd team AP in 2007

Ale Xander · Oct 10, 2023

I stand corrected

slamminsammya · Oct 10, 2023

tims4wins said:
You mean Vince? I mentioned him. He was 2nd team AP in 2007

No I meant Ty Warren when I said Ty Warren. Take a look https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_All-Pro_Team

tims4wins · Oct 10, 2023

slamminsammya said:
No I meant Ty Warren when I said Ty Warren. Take a look https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_All-Pro_Team

Got it, I was looking at the AP

slamminsammya · Oct 10, 2023

tims4wins said:
Got it, I was looking at the AP

Ah, I also get confused with the various teams. I see he was 1st team for Pro Football Writers, but AP he was nothing. Why we gotta make this so confusing media folks? https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2007/allpro.htm

BigSoxFan · Oct 10, 2023

Surprised no love for the 2023 Pats. There are, like, 8-9 guys on the team capable of going for 10 receiving yards on a given day.

Mooch · Oct 10, 2023

Am I crazy for thinking that in a winner-take-all game, the 2004 team would beat the 2007 team more often than not? I think the ‘04’s balanced offensive attack and more complete defense would limit the ‘07 team’s explosiveness.

Cellar-Door · Oct 10, 2023

probably 2007, but there is a case on pure talent (not achievement) for some of the early 2010 teams.

No Moss, but you replace him with Gronk probably the best ever at his position.

2012 gives you:
Brady
Gronk
Welker
Edelman
He who shall not be named
Talib
Chandler Jones
Wilfork
Mayo
McCourty
Branch
Hightower

tims4wins · Oct 10, 2023

BigSoxFan said:
Surprised no love for the 2023 Pats. There are, like, 8-9 guys on the team capable of going for 10 receiving yards on a given day.

Corey Dillon. The 2003 team really couldn't run the ball well. Their offense wasn't very good.

Edit lol misread 2003 for 2023

BigSoxFan · Oct 10, 2023

Mooch said:
Am I crazy for thinking that in a winner-take-all game, the 2004 team would beat the 2007 team more often than not? I think the ‘04’s balanced offensive attack and more complete defense would limit the ‘07 team’s explosiveness.

Since it’s a hypothetical, certainly not crazy. Of course, I don’t know who on the 2004 team would be able to hang with Moss. Young Asante Samuel and Randall Gay vs. Moss/Welker is a huge mismatch. I’m not sure the 2004 DL would get on 2007 Brady the way the Giants did.

Hoya81 · Oct 10, 2023

I’m not sure if they all appeared on the field at the same time but in weeks 1-4 of 2010 the Pats could have gone 5 wide with Gronk, Hernandez, Moss, Welker and Edelman.

slamminsammya · Oct 10, 2023

Cellar-Door said:
probably 2007, but there is a case on pure talent (not achievement) for some of the early 2010 teams.

No Moss, but you replace him with Gronk probably the best ever at his position.

2012 gives you:
Brady
Gronk
Welker
Edelman
He who shall not be named
Talib
Chandler Jones
Wilfork
Mayo
McCourty
Branch
Hightower

Vereen, Ridley, and Woodhead was a pretty solid group at the time as well.

Was (Not Wasdin) · Oct 10, 2023

I think it is 2007 as well, but 2014 is up there

Brady, Gronk, Wilfork, Revis, McCourty gives you five legit "all time" guys.

Hightower, Mayo, Collins, Chandler Jones is a beastly LB/DE group.

Gostkowski, Jules, Brandon Browner, Nink, all top tier at their respective positions.

OL maybe a little lacking, but at the top they are right there.

tims4wins · Oct 10, 2023

BigSoxFan said:
Since it’s a hypothetical, certainly not crazy. Of course, I don’t know who on the 2004 team would be able to hang with Moss. Young Asante Samuel and Randall Gay vs. Moss/Welker is a huge mismatch. I’m not sure the 2004 DL would get on 2007 Brady the way the Giants did.

Of course are we talking the 2004 Super Bowl team vs. the 2004 peak strength team. Ty Law / Ty Poole was a great tandem but they were both done for the year come the playoffs. If fully healthy, I stick Poole on Moss with Eugene Wilson playing deep safety, I let Law erase Stallworth / Gaffney, and I stick Asante on Welker in the slot.

Saints Rest · Oct 10, 2023

I'd like to offer up 1978. Different eras obviously, but a lot of talent on that team at every level.

Kliq · Oct 10, 2023

Probably 1775 or 1776, those guys had some monster years.

Ale Xander · Oct 10, 2023

If the 1985 team had a QB . . . (And perhaps a younger Hannah and more help on both lines)

sezwho · Oct 10, 2023

BaseballJones said:
I love them, but neither Wilfork nor McCourty are anywhere close to "all time" guys.

Ted Washington was the best nose tackle that came through. Or maybe ever was.

and I loooove Wilfork.

Was (Not Wasdin) · Oct 10, 2023

slamminsammya said:
No I meant Ty Warren when I said Ty Warren. Take a look https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_All-Pro_Team

I mean, it makes sense because they went 16-0, but 2007 had 1st or 2nd team All Pros at QB, WR (2), T, G, C, DL (2), LB, and CB.

8slim · Oct 10, 2023

Kliq said:
Probably 1775 or 1776, those guys had some monster years.

Dude, neither of those squads could hold a candle to the 1781 group that won a HUGE road game at Yorktown. Come on, now.

8slim · Oct 10, 2023

Ale Xander said:
If the 1985 team had a QB . . . (And perhaps a younger Hannah and more help on both lines)

'85 was loaded though. The OL also had Brian Holloway and Pete Brock. Stanley Morgan and Irving Fryar at WR. Craig James and Tony Collins at RB. Lin Dawson and Derrick Ramsey at TE. Monster LB and DB core (Tippet, Blackmon, Rembert, Marion, Lippett, R. James).

Obviously, not loaded like most all of the 2004-2018 teams. But tons of high-end talent all over the field.

BigSoxFan · Oct 10, 2023

sezwho said:
Ted Washington was the best nose tackle that came through. Or maybe ever was.

and I loooove Wilfork.

I loved Ted Washington so much. The guy was an absolute force. That Panthers SB often gets overlooked but the Pats defense was absolutely murdering Carolina’s offense before the injuries started to mount.

Carolina’s longest play for their first 6 series was…5 yards. Took them until their 24th or 25th play to finally exceed it.

BigSoxFan · Oct 10, 2023

BaseballJones said:
That game was bonkers. No offense and then an explosion at the end of the first half by both teams. Then very little in the second half then an explosion at the end.

Including 2 missed FGs by Vinatieri, which was nuts given it was indoors where he was generally awesome although I guess one was blocked.

Silverdude2167 · Oct 10, 2023

BigSoxFan said:
Including 2 missed FGs by Vinatieri, which was nuts given it was indoors where he was generally awesome although I guess one was blocked.

Great story about the emergency long snapper that caused those two "misses" and really shows how important that position actually is.

BigSoxFan · Oct 10, 2023

Silverdude2167 said:
Great story about the emergency long snapper that caused those two "misses" and really shows how important that position actually is.

Wow, thanks for sharing. I had no idea! And I’m glad I didn’t at the time.

tims4wins · Oct 10, 2023

Ted Washington in 2003 had a top 10 all time Patriots defender performance IMO.

The Panthers had negative yardage in that game through 26 minutes IIRC.

Kliq · Oct 10, 2023

The 2003-2004 Pats don't get enough conversation in "Best Defense Ever" conversations. #1 and #2 defense in back-to-back years, winning back-to-back Super Bowls. I think they are underrated because Brady is the face of those teams (as opposed to the Steel Curtain, '85 Bears, 2000 Ravens, 2002 Bucs, etc.) even if he wasn't quite TOM BRADY yet. They also "only" have two Hall of Fame players in Law and Seymour--but the team was just full of "Hall of Very Good" guys at all three levels--Ted Washington, Wilfork, Bruschi, McGinest, Rodney Harrison, Vrabel, etc.

jose melendez · Oct 10, 2023

Silverdude2167 said:
Great story about the emergency long snapper that caused those two "misses" and really shows how important that position actually is.

I'd never heard that before. It make me want to go back into the past and vomit.

j-man · Oct 10, 2023

2007 i mean eil was sacked on that 3rd down play but the refs did not call it

TFisNEXT · Oct 10, 2023

8slim said:
'85 was loaded though. The OL also had Brian Holloway and Pete Brock. Stanley Morgan and Irving Fryar at WR. Craig James and Tony Collins at RB. Lin Dawson and Derrick Ramsey at TE. Monster LB and DB core (Tippet, Blackmon, Rembert, Marion, Lippett, R. James).

Obviously, not loaded like most all of the 2004-2018 teams. But tons of high-end talent all over the field.

I remember reading years ago that because of how obscenely unstoppable Andre Tippett was in 1984 (think he had 18 or 19 sacks that year?), he was drawing almost full-time double teams in 1985 which helped the other defenders really excel….I think they mentioned Blackmon had a career high in sacks. Tippett still had some ridiculous number too (15 or 16?) but just not as obscene as 1984.

Devizier · Oct 10, 2023

j-man said:
2007 i mean eil was sacked on that 3rd down play but the refs did not call it

If we’re being fair, Rex Ryan shouldn’t have been granted that timeout and the Dolphins pop the champagne during the regular season.

Dick Drago · Oct 11, 2023

Pre-Brady/BB they’d be my choice (1978, meant to quote Saint’s post above):

WR Morgan and Harold Jackson, both over 20 yards per catch-I’d say both are all time greats, considering the era.

TE Russ Francis, probably = Casper as best blocking and receiving TE of the ‘70s.
All time great John Hannah and all-pro Leon Gray.
Sam Cunningham, maybe best all around FB at the time plus 3 other “good” RBs.

Great secondary, Clayborn and Haynes two of the best, and a very good safety in Tim Fox. Haynes certainly an all-time great. Steve Nelson, Rod Shoate, Julius Adams.
Tremendous talent-but I think turnovers (and the Fairbanks-Sullivan drama) doomed them.

I loved Grogan-he was a great runner, and strong arm—but he made so many ridiculous decisions-his arm was FAR stronger than Mac obviously, he threw a great deep ball…but he’d constantly try those cross-field throws on the move ala Mac Vs Dallas-and had days when he was great…but also could be terrible. Far too many picks—Cunningham and Ivory also fumbled all the time.

I’d say for pure talent they are up there, #1 pre-dynasty, but performance rarely matched up to their potential.

Most talented Pats team of all time

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