Splitting this out and adding a poll. You make the call. Not the call based on overturning or upholding the West call - what do you think actually happened?
Feel free to bring Zapruder quality film, high end audio and any other forensic evidence you can muster,
Feel free to bring Zapruder quality film, high end audio and any other forensic evidence you can muster,
Because when a fan touches a ball in the field of play, it’s a dead ball.
There is no video or photo showing that Betts’ glove crossed the invisible, extended plane of the outfield fence. All the video and photo evidence shows that it did not. It also shows that two or three fans reached into the field of play to try and catch the ball.
True.
There was no “the latter” on this play. Mookie, his glove, the ball and the fans’ hands were all in the field of play. Watch it again. Betts’s body was one to two feet away from the wall at the moment of contact between glove, hands and ball. After the ball deflects his body continues to move then bangs into the wall. His arm is extended upwards at a slight angle. Unless his left arm is four feet long, his glove was still in the field of play. It’s even more obvious if you look at the fans. Three of them are reaching into the field.
Correct. It was either an out or a HR. No chance for a third option based on the fan interference rules.
This is a useless discussion going on around a first inning play. Houston built their ballpark so the fans could be right on the field. You do that and you run the risk of a fan interference call that might come back to bite you like last night. The teams combined for 12 runs after the out call was made. I know the media (social and otherwise) love a good controversy. This is not a good controversy. Mookie would have caught it easily if the fans weren’t there. The fraction of a millimeter difference between out of play/in play was not close to being clear enough to overturn.
Thank Joe West for making the call on the field. I don’t think the opposite call could have been overturned by review either.
Two real stories here IMO:
1. Joe F'in West had a very difficult big time pressure call in an ALCS game and got it right. Well done/good call Joe.
2. Mookie made a fantastic 5* play (one of two last night) to get to point where only fan interference could "plainly prevent" him from catching the ball.
I've watched it several times, and I have no idea how you're seeing it as so clear-cut. It's very difficult to say exactly how close to the rail the guys directly behind Betts are at the moment the ball hits Mookie's glove (about 2:14 here). They're clearly close, but how close? A variation of a few inches in the answer would be the difference between out and HR. My best clue is the guy to the right of that group directly behind Mookie, in the light grey shirt, who's leaning to his right and grabbing the rail with his left hand. He seems to be leaning almost straight to the side, perhaps very slightly forward. Judging by the position of his body, it looks like his hand is maybe 4-6 inches behind the rail. And the ball appears to be a few inches forward of his hand--more or less right above the rail, in other words.
We'll never know what the true answer is. Probably nobody involved--Mookie or fans--knows for sure what the answer is. Astros fans will naturally feel robbed. Sox fans will naturally feel like the call was fine. On we go.
Maybe, but
Definitely the most compelling look I've seen thus far. Either call could be spun as correct, but we got this one. And frankly we are all pretty certain he was going to catch it anyway whether it was in front of or behind the yellow line. So it feels like the right thing was done.
One thing that I wish the media would tumble to is where the actual plane is. If you look at the right field wall, the entire top of the wall is painted yellow which means that a ball that hits the top of the wall is in play. Contrast this to the Moster, where the shelf above the painted red line is not in play and is a home run. That means that for purposes of defining what constitutes the "playing field side of such fence, railing or rope" within the meaning of the rule's approved comment, the playing field side is the part of the fence that lies outside the plane that extends vertically upward from the inside (that is the part facing the spectators) part of the wall.
When this is understood, I really don't think the call is that debatable in the absence of a more dispositive angle. All the video evidence I've seen suggests it is more likely than not that Mookie's glove at the time of interference was on his side of that plane.
And one final point. The relevant question is where the fan's interfering body part is at the time of the interference, which may or may not be the same as where his body part is at the time he touches the ball. Interference is the act of preventing the catch, which started to occur here with contact with Mookie's glove not with contact with the ball.
Again, a view down the wall would be crucial. Without one, the evidence that exists to me suggests it's more probable than not that Joe West got this one right.
There is another part of the rule that is not really being talked about. The interference must prevent the catch, which means the umpire has to judge that the player was going to catch the ball. I think it's fair to say Mookie might have caught the ball. I'm kind of curious how umpires are taught to judge this. Do you presume the ability to make a spectacular play? Can you take the attributes of the player in question into account? Or do you assume something closer to ordinary effort? Is the rule that a ball that has the trajectory to be a home run should be presumptively judged likely to have made it or do you decide that you should never punish the player from being deprived of the opportunity to make a great player if the spectator violates the stadium rules? I think these are all pretty interesting questions and not obvious.
It appears that the orange guys shirt bottom is touching the rail.
Even if he has trex arms they would still be out past his waist given his slight lean and thus in the field of play.
To me, it seems very clear in that photo that all three fans are reaching across the plane. As others have said, whether Bett’s glove did or didn’t break the plane, (I don’t think it did, before impact,) isn’t relevant.
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