Misc. Pats Offseason News

ponch73

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For a simple basis of comparison, I took a quick look at the 2018-2023 drafts of the Baltimore Ravens, who I think are generally regarded as one of the smarter drafting NFL teams.

Small samples sizes apply, but the Ravens were roughly half as likely to make a non-consensus pick (defined as drafting a player 32 or more slots earlier than consensus) than the Patriots across the first 5 rounds. They were also much less likely to make a non-consensus pick in the 3rd round, 4th round or 5th round than the Patriots.

2018-2023 NFL Drafts

RAVENS Reaches / Total Picks: 11 / 45 = 24%
RAVENS Reaches / 1st Round Picks: 0 / 9 = 0%
RAVENS Reaches / 2nd Round Picks: 0 / 2 = 0%
RAVENS Reaches / 3rd Round Picks: 2 / 12 = 17%
RAVENS Reaches / 4th Round Picks: 6 / 15 = 40%
RAVENS Reaches / 5th Round Picks: 3 / 7 = 43%

PATRIOTS Reaches / Total Picks: 17 / 37 = 46%

PATRIOTS Reaches / 1st Round Picks: 1 / 6 = 17%
PATRIOTS Reaches / 2nd Round Picks: 1 / 7 = 14%
PATRIOTS Reaches / 3rd Round Picks: 4 / 9 = 44%
PATRIOTS Reaches / 4th Round Picks: 6 / 9 = 67%
PATRIOTS Reaches / 5th Round Picks: 5 / 6 = 83%


I wholeheartedly agree with the notion that BB's high profile 1st and 2nd round offensive draft busts (e.g., Harry, Mac, Strange?, Thornton?) played a large role in getting him fired, as did his free agency and trade moves to bolster the offense over this time period (e.g., A. Brown, Sanu, J. Smith, Parker, Smith-Schuster).

But I also think multiple things can be true at the same time, and, in this case, the failure to benefit from or consider the "wisdom of crowds" in drafting in the 3rd or 4th rounds was an unforced error on his part. This is a shame because I think BB demonstrated that he hadn't lost much zip on his fastball when it came to game planning or in-game coaching, particularly on the defensive side of the ball.
 
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Cellar-Door

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Which is why you don't take guards not name Logan Mankins in the first round.

But he played with a crossbar face mask and no gloves! Plus he almost went to the Airforce!
I mean.... if they took a WR and he blew out his knee what is the difference? Injuries happen at every position. The idea that taking a guy who gets hurt is bad because he got hurt is silly.
 

rsmith7

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Jul 18, 2005
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Well often a patella is used as a replacement for a torn ACL. Not sure what they use to replace a torn patella tendon though.
I have a number of family members with torn patellas. Most often a cadaver, sometimes the patient's own from another location.
 

Jimbodandy

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Well often a patella is used as a replacement for a torn ACL. Not sure what they use to replace a torn patella tendon though.
They just reattach surgically. You don't hear about them as much as ACL tears these days, but I've known a few folks who did it in different sports. One dude I used to play hoop with had the bottom of his patella contact the top of another guy's, coming down for a rebound, and it rolled up his thigh like a shade. The ACL being inside the knee has driven advancements in limiting open surgery and complicated reconstructions, whereas the patella tendon/ligament is easy to get at.
 

cornwalls@6

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They just reattach surgically. You don't hear about them as much as ACL tears these days, but I've known a few folks who did it in different sports. One dude I used to play hoop with had the bottom of his patella contact the top of another guy's, coming down for a rebound, and it rolled up his thigh like a shade. The ACL being inside the knee has driven advancements in limiting open surgery and complicated reconstructions, whereas the patella tendon/ligament is easy to get at.
I had a complete rupture of the quad tendon( basically the upper patella). They just stretched what was left of it, drilled a small metal post into my kneecap, and re-attached it to that. I have about 85-90% of the range of motion I had before the injury. That was in 2014 and still holding up very well.
 
Oct 12, 2023
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Which is why you don't take guards not name Logan Mankins in the first round.

But he played with a crossbar face mask and no gloves! Plus he almost went to the Airforce!
Many of the best guards are former first round picks. Martin and Nelson are (borderline?) hall of fame caliber players. Lindstrom is elite. Bitonio was a 2nd round pick but 35th overall so in the same general range as Strange. Tyler Smith was also a 1st although drafted as a T/G more than a pure guard.

Yeah you can find guys like Thuney (although another conversion) and Yanda in the 3rd but guard is like any other position. The elite guys tend to come from the upper part of the draft.
 

BigJimEd

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Bryce Baringer a two sport athlete

While he'll never be confused with Bo Jackson, Bryce Baringer is a pretty good two-sport athlete in his own right. The New England Patriots punter proved that this week when he won the 2024 Massachusetts Amateur Qualifier.

The win qualifies the 25-year-old Baringer for the 2024 Massachusetts Amateur Championship, which will take place in July, prior to the start of Patriots training camp.
 

dynomite

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: Patriots and LB Jahlani Tavai are in agreement on a 3-year extension. Maximum value of $21 million, with base value of $15 million, per sources.
Can't believe we got em.

More substantively, it felt like Tavai's excellent season flew under the radar last year, maybe because he didn't have a ton of ESPN highlights (fumbles forced, INTs, etc.), isn't a big talker (AKA Judon, who I love), and because the team generally was so bad, but he was the 4th ranked LB by PFF for what that's worth last year. Also, of course, LB is the top of the list of all positions on the roster where I trust Mayo's judgment as a former player and defensive coach, so if he wants to invest in Tavai I'm on board.
 

BaseballJones

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I hear what you're saying, @dynomite but to me it seems like the Pats are paying semi-serious dollars for a bunch of guys who are fine but nothing great.
 

Saints Rest

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I hear what you're saying, @dynomite but to me it seems like the Pats are paying semi-serious dollars for a bunch of guys who are fine but nothing great.
When BB arrived in NE, his first task was to sign "semi-serious dollars for a bunch of guys who are fine but nothing great," guys like Pleasant, Otis Smith, Hamilton, Izzy, Patten, Cox, et al. He did it because he believed that he needed some of his guys who could communicate from the staff to the rank and file. I would imagine Mayo is doing the same thing here a bit, the big difference being that these signees were Pats last year. Hence, we might read more into the players that he didn't re-sign: Mills, Gesicki, Wilson, Jones, Parker, Philips, etc.
 

dynomite

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I hear what you're saying, @dynomite but to me it seems like the Pats are paying semi-serious dollars for a bunch of guys who are fine but nothing great.
Yes, I felt/feel this way with Rham. Still, I hope Tavai is a little different -- a player that (by some eyes) is legitimately top of his position.

Plus the defense generally is the only good unit on this roster, and I feel consistency on that side of the ball for the next few seasons will hopefully be valuable as guys like Gonzalez develop.
 

SMU_Sox

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My response to that is that all of the starting caliber guys they have re-signed are average to quality starters or better. They sucked because their OL, pass catchers, and QB situation. I can nitpick the Rham and Dugger signings and lament that they didn't sign a better bridge LT but overall they didn't sign any bad deals. Most of the deals are very good! I wouldn't conflate lack of talent at other positions with they didn't sign good players for good value.

I don't think the defense helps as much as you'd think. Defenses are inconsistent from year to year and they lost the Belichicks. Plus if your offense sucks it doesn't really matter how good your D is. Still, it's as simple as it is good to have quality starters on defense...
 

Over Guapo Grande

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I don't think the defense helps as much as you'd think. Defenses are inconsistent from year to year and they lost the Belichicks. Plus if your offense sucks it doesn't really matter how good your D is. Still, it's as simple as it is good to have quality starters on defense...
Only 2/3 of them! And the one that remained has been overseeing one of the strengths of this team. (I am looking for straws, let me grasp.)
 

E5 Yaz

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On the value of Tavai

Reiss: Tavai played 74% of the Patriots' defensive snaps last season and 78% of the special teams snaps. He is the only NFL player in the past decade to play at least 70% of his team's special teams snaps and at least 70% of his team's snaps on offense or defense in a season.
 

Jimbodandy

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On the value of Tavai

Reiss: Tavai played 74% of the Patriots' defensive snaps last season and 78% of the special teams snaps. He is the only NFL player in the past decade to play at least 70% of his team's special teams snaps and at least 70% of his team's snaps on offense or defense in a season.
Yeah I think that Tavai is being undersold here.

When Belichick took over this org, he turned over a ton of guys from the 5-11 team...but he kept the ones that were good players. Seems like folks have forgotten that. Just because a team won four games doesn't mean that a house cleaning is in order. Tavai was a stud last year.
 
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Yeah I think that Tavai is being undersold here.

When Belichick took over this org, he turned over a ton of guys from the 5-11 team...but he kept the ones that were good players. Seems like folks have forgotten that. Just because a team won four games doesn't mean that a house cleaning is in order. Tavai was a stud last year.
Well you can’t turn over a full roster in a year. But the 2001 team that won the Super Bowl had turned over the vast majority of the starters.

Troy Brown, Damien Woody, Ty Law, Tedy Bruschi, Willie McGinest, Ted Johnson, Tebucky Jones and Lawyer Milloy were the only starters (plus Vinatieri and obviously Bledsoe and Glenn who started the year as starters). Faulk was around, as were Rutledge and Mitchell (neither of whom were retained once their rookie contracts ended, same as Woody)

Belichick only kept (via extension) the guys who were Patriots hall of fame (or actual HOF in Law’s case) caliber players.

Of course, the 1999 team was much better than the 2023 team. And BB struck gold in his first 2 off seasons with Brady, Seymour, Light coming through the draft and signing key veterans Phifer, O.Smith, Hamilton, Vrabel, Pleasant, Andruzzi and making a huge splash for Colvin.

Belichick made a significant attempt in the 2000 offseason to upgrade the roster and fill holes and find “his guys”. Wolf has done the opposite, essentially running it back with the same guys plus a new QB and some scrap heap players like Takitaki, Okorafor and Gibson.

Not saying one approach is better but it’s clearly different. The Carroll/Grier draft pick young veterans who Belichick inherited didn’t last long (and there is an uncanny similarity between Tony Simmons and Tyquan Thornton). The young roster players Wolf has inherited are clearly being given big roles moving forward (last years OL picks especially but the depth players at CB, S, Douglas etc)

There’s no reason to gut a roster just to remake it, but (again, other than QB), Wolf didn’t do much of anything to actually upgrade the team. He’s taking the approach that coaching, development and better QB play will elevate the talent. BB clearly didn’t like the talent he inherited from day 1 outside of the big name players.
 

Jimbodandy

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Well you can’t turn over a full roster in a year. But the 2001 team that won the Super Bowl had turned over the vast majority of the starters.

Troy Brown, Damien Woody, Ty Law, Tedy Bruschi, Willie McGinest, Ted Johnson, Tebucky Jones and Lawyer Milloy were the only starters (plus Vinatieri and obviously Bledsoe and Glenn who started the year as starters). Faulk was around, as were Rutledge and Mitchell (neither of whom were retained once their rookie contracts ended, same as Woody)

Belichick only kept (via extension) the guys who were Patriots hall of fame (or actual HOF in Law’s case) caliber players.

Of course, the 1999 team was much better than the 2023 team. And BB struck gold in his first 2 off seasons with Brady, Seymour, Light coming through the draft and signing key veterans Phifer, O.Smith, Hamilton, Vrabel, Pleasant, Andruzzi and making a huge splash for Colvin.

Belichick made a significant attempt in the 2000 offseason to upgrade the roster and fill holes and find “his guys”. Wolf has done the opposite, essentially running it back with the same guys plus a new QB and some scrap heap players like Takitaki, Okorafor and Gibson.

Not saying one approach is better but it’s clearly different. The Carroll/Grier draft pick young veterans who Belichick inherited didn’t last long (and there is an uncanny similarity between Tony Simmons and Tyquan Thornton). The young roster players Wolf has inherited are clearly being given big roles moving forward (last years OL picks especially but the depth players at CB, S, Douglas etc)

There’s no reason to gut a roster just to remake it, but (again, other than QB), Wolf didn’t do much of anything to actually upgrade the team. He’s taking the approach that coaching, development and better QB play will elevate the talent. BB clearly didn’t like the talent he inherited from day 1 outside of the big name players.
Great post.

Yes, key differences. I'm just pushing back on the impression that I got--perhaps unfairly--that folks think that resigning anyone from the 4-13 team is bad business. Some of those guys are good players. We should keep them around. Lots aren't. Maybe Wolf et al. aren't moving fast enough for some people, but they seem to be paying around market rate for guys that most of us think can play. If the alternative is attrition, not sure why we'd prefer that.
 

Saints Rest

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Well you can’t turn over a full roster in a year. But the 2001 team that won the Super Bowl had turned over the vast majority of the starters.

Troy Brown, Damien Woody, Ty Law, Tedy Bruschi, Willie McGinest, Ted Johnson, Tebucky Jones and Lawyer Milloy were the only starters (plus Vinatieri and obviously Bledsoe and Glenn who started the year as starters). Faulk was around, as were Rutledge and Mitchell (neither of whom were retained once their rookie contracts ended, same as Woody)

Belichick only kept (via extension) the guys who were Patriots hall of fame (or actual HOF in Law’s case) caliber players.

Of course, the 1999 team was much better than the 2023 team. And BB struck gold in his first 2 off seasons with Brady, Seymour, Light coming through the draft and signing key veterans Phifer, O.Smith, Hamilton, Vrabel, Pleasant, Andruzzi and making a huge splash for Colvin.

Belichick made a significant attempt in the 2000 offseason to upgrade the roster and fill holes and find “his guys”. Wolf has done the opposite, essentially running it back with the same guys plus a new QB and some scrap heap players like Takitaki, Okorafor and Gibson.

Not saying one approach is better but it’s clearly different. The Carroll/Grier draft pick young veterans who Belichick inherited didn’t last long (and there is an uncanny similarity between Tony Simmons and Tyquan Thornton). The young roster players Wolf has inherited are clearly being given big roles moving forward (last years OL picks especially but the depth players at CB, S, Douglas etc)

There’s no reason to gut a roster just to remake it, but (again, other than QB), Wolf didn’t do much of anything to actually upgrade the team. He’s taking the approach that coaching, development and better QB play will elevate the talent. BB clearly didn’t like the talent he inherited from day 1 outside of the big name players.
My point was that many of the free agents BB brought in over his first two years were “his guys” who had played for other organizations. Mayo’s version of “his guys” played for the Pats.
But both have the same goal: to establish the coach’s culture thru the use of the middle of the roster.
 

NickEsasky

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Yeah, his salary is only $6.5 million this season but what about the bonuses he already received? I don't fault any of these guys for wanting to maximize earning potential in a brutal sport with short careers, but the guy isn't underpaid based on total compensation he's received.
 

BaseballJones

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ESPN ranks each NFL team by skill position groups (excluding QB). Has NE at #31 (no surprise).

"It's no secret that the Patriots lack playmakers. Their failure to land difference-makers on offense likely stunted Mac Jones' development and cost Bill Belichick his job. This might be a different franchise if Belichick had drafted Nick Chubb ahead of Sony Michel in 2018, Deebo Samuel instead of N'Keal Harry in 2019, or George Pickens instead of Tyquan Thornton in 2022. In each case, the star was the next player taken at each respective position after New England made its choice.

In trying to make up for those mistakes, the Patriots have generally bought in bulk and hoped that somebody would break through. They haven't. Pleasant surprises such as DeMario Douglas and Kendrick Bourne have been in and out of the lineup, the latter making his way out of Belichick's doghouse in 2023 before tearing his right ACL. JuJu Smith-Schuster had his snaps limited by injuries and racked up just 260 yards last season. Rhamondre Stevensonand Hunter Henry, the two most productive veterans in the dying days of the Belichick era, were both out for stretches in 2023 and saw their production fall off as a result.


There are new players here, most notably second-round pick Ja'Lynn Polk and fourth-rounder Javon Baker, but both players ran 40-yard dashes in 4.5-plus seconds at the combine. Antonio Gibson and K.J. Osborn were supplemental players with their former teams. The Patriots desperately need someone who is going to keep defensive coordinators up at night. Until someone emerges for the Patriots, those coaches might as well replace Dak Prescott in mattress ads."


Ouch.
 

j-man

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i been reading the preseason NFL mags Atlton has u 31th behind car Lindy has u 30th ahead of car tenn roster as of may 14th if they are right if i was u then u need LT and WR in draft