Might as well start talking about 2021

nvalvo

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So, how does this roster look now? (edited to add: yuck, that table functionality suuuuuucks.)

Starting Pitchers (5)
Rodriguez L
Richards R
Eovaldi R
Perez L
Pivetta R

Swingmen/Bulk (3)
Andriese R
Whitlock R
Hernandez L

Short Relievers (6)
Barnes R
Ottavino R (reverse split)
Brasier R
Sawamura R
Valdez R
Brice R

Catchers (2)
Vazquez R
Plawecki R

Infielders (4)
Bogaerts R
Devers L
Dalbec R
Arroyo R

IF/OF (2)
Hernández R
González S

Outfielders (4)
Cordero L
Renfroe R
Verdugo L
Martínez R

Earlier I said: “That's 25. We still need to add a bench IF/OF who should ideally be a 3B/1B/LF type, and probably a LHH.” Then we added Martin González, who should play basically this role. He’s a switch hitter.

Depending on how people play, you could imagine a quasi-platoon scenario involving Hernandez (500 PA at 2B and CF), Renfroe (350 PA at LF and RF), Cordero (500 PA in LF, CF, and RF), Arroyo (300 PA at 2B and backing up SS), and the future bench IF/OF (350 PA in LF, 1B, and 3B) dividing 2B and OF PAs and backing up elsewhere.

One could certainly quibble with the last few selections of pitching staff. Is Brice really better than Taylor or Walden? I dunno, but he's out of options. One might even decide, given the innings ramp up for everybody, to give Whitlock or Andriese (or Houck?) regular turns as a sixth starter.
 
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chawson

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So, how does this roster look now? (edited to add: yuck, that table functionality suuuuuucks.)

Starting Pitchers (5)
Rodriguez L
Richards R
Eovaldi R
Perez L
Pivetta R

Swingmen/Bulk (3)
Andriese R
Whitlock R
Hernandez L

Short Relievers (6)
Barnes R
Ottavino R (reverse split)
Brasier R
Sawamura R
Valdez R
Brice R

Catchers (2)
Vazquez R
Plawecki R

Infielders (5)
Bogaerts R
Devers L
Dalbec R
Arroyo R
Hernández R

Outfielders (4)
Cordero L
Renfroe R
Verdugo L
Martínez R

That's 25. We still need to add a bench IF/OF who should ideally be a 3B/1B/LF type, and probably a LHH. That could be Chavis or Múñoz or someone yet to be signed (BROCKHOLT!?!?).

Depending on how people play, you could imagine a quasi-platoon scenario involving Hernandez (500 PA at 2B and CF), Renfroe (350 PA at LF and RF), Cordero (500 PA in LF, CF, and RF), Arroyo (300 PA at 2B and backing up SS), and the future bench IF/OF (350 PA in LF, 1B, and 3B) dividing 2B and OF PAs and backing up elsewhere.

One could certainly quibble with the last few selections of pitching staff. Is Brice really better than Taylor or Walden? I dunno, but he's out of options. One might even decide, given the innings ramp up for everybody, to give Whitlock or Andriese (or Houck?) regular turns as a sixth starter.
Nice.
Minor quibbles, but did you mean Barnes with the reverse split rather than Ottavino?
I think Bloom still has another move or two here (with so much noise linking the Mets to Turner or Bryant I think Chavis for J.D. Davis/Familia would be nice). If not, then Taylor's my bet to be the 26th man if he's healthy.
 

jon abbey

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Yeah, NY got rid of Ottavino because they didn’t trust him against lefties anymore (and he makes a lot and he can’t prevent SBs), definitely no reverse split there.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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Ok, slightly off topic, but you MUST be retired JA, right? How the hell do you have so much time to add quality content to a Red Sox message board???

In addition to a LHH corner guy, I’d like one more solid bullpen arm who can reliably pitch in the 7th and 8th, if needed. Valdez and Brice don’t excite me. But I think they could two guys to fill those roles for a total of $4-5M.
 

Jack Rabbit Slim

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So, how does this roster look now? (edited to add: yuck, that table functionality suuuuuucks.)

Starting Pitchers (5)
Rodriguez L
Richards R
Eovaldi R
Perez L
Pivetta R

Swingmen/Bulk (3)
Andriese R
Whitlock R
Hernandez L

Short Relievers (6)
Barnes R
Ottavino R (reverse split)
Brasier R
Sawamura R
Valdez R
Brice R

Catchers (2)
Vazquez R
Plawecki R

Infielders (5)
Bogaerts R
Devers L
Dalbec R
Arroyo R
Hernández R

Outfielders (4)
Cordero L
Renfroe R
Verdugo L
Martínez R

That's 25. We still need to add a bench IF/OF who should ideally be a 3B/1B/LF type, and probably a LHH. That could be Chavis or Múñoz or someone yet to be signed (BROCKHOLT!?!?).

Depending on how people play, you could imagine a quasi-platoon scenario involving Hernandez (500 PA at 2B and CF), Renfroe (350 PA at LF and RF), Cordero (500 PA in LF, CF, and RF), Arroyo (300 PA at 2B and backing up SS), and the future bench IF/OF (350 PA in LF, 1B, and 3B) dividing 2B and OF PAs and backing up elsewhere.

One could certainly quibble with the last few selections of pitching staff. Is Brice really better than Taylor or Walden? I dunno, but he's out of options. One might even decide, given the innings ramp up for everybody, to give Whitlock or Andriese (or Houck?) regular turns as a sixth starter.
It seems like too many relievers and no one who can back up SS. Valdez probably gets optioned for Arauz or a FA.

I still think they need someone who can play a significant amount of time in the outfield unless Kike is going to be out there more than it seems from his quotes.
 

Coachster

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Yairo Munoz has 377 innings as a major league shortstop. (220 innings at 2nd and 200 at 3rd, as well 293 in the outfield.) He's the perfect swiss army knife for this club, but he has to get past the fetid corpse of Michael Chavis on the depth chart to have a shot.
 

jon abbey

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Ok, slightly off topic, but you MUST be retired JA, right? How the hell do you have so much time to add quality content to a Red Sox message board???
Heh, I run my own business from home (erstwhilerecords.com) and Yankee discussion sites are all filled with morons (and I am permabanned from nyyfans.com for repeatedly and cleverly alerting them to that), so I’m very happy to be here.
 

Ale Xander

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Heh, I run my own business from home (erstwhilerecords.com) and Yankee discussion sites are all filled with morons (and I am permabanned from nyyfans.com for repeatedly and cleverly alerting them to that), so I’m very happy to be here.
Can we trade out Shanghai Warrior for Exception That Proves The Rule?

Fake edit: This roster needs a legit CF!
 

BaseballJones

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So, how does this roster look now? (edited to add: yuck, that table functionality suuuuuucks.)

Starting Pitchers (5)
Rodriguez L
Richards R
Eovaldi R
Perez L
Pivetta R

Swingmen/Bulk (3)
Andriese R
Whitlock R
Hernandez L

Short Relievers (6)
Barnes R
Ottavino R (reverse split)
Brasier R
Sawamura R
Valdez R
Brice R

Catchers (2)
Vazquez R
Plawecki R

Infielders (5)
Bogaerts R
Devers L
Dalbec R
Arroyo R
Hernández R

Outfielders (4)
Cordero L
Renfroe R
Verdugo L
Martínez R

That's 25. We still need to add a bench IF/OF who should ideally be a 3B/1B/LF type, and probably a LHH. That could be Chavis or Múñoz or someone yet to be signed (BROCKHOLT!?!?).

Depending on how people play, you could imagine a quasi-platoon scenario involving Hernandez (500 PA at 2B and CF), Renfroe (350 PA at LF and RF), Cordero (500 PA in LF, CF, and RF), Arroyo (300 PA at 2B and backing up SS), and the future bench IF/OF (350 PA in LF, 1B, and 3B) dividing 2B and OF PAs and backing up elsewhere.

One could certainly quibble with the last few selections of pitching staff. Is Brice really better than Taylor or Walden? I dunno, but he's out of options. One might even decide, given the innings ramp up for everybody, to give Whitlock or Andriese (or Houck?) regular turns as a sixth starter.
Can we get an update with this, including Marwin Gonzalez?
 

nvalvo

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Nice.
Minor quibbles, but did you mean Barnes with the reverse split rather than Ottavino?
I think Bloom still has another move or two here (with so much noise linking the Mets to Turner or Bryant I think Chavis for J.D. Davis/Familia would be nice). If not, then Taylor's my bet to be the 26th man if he's healthy.
Oh, you might be right that I was misremembering which reliever has the reverse split.

Can we get an update with this, including Marwin Gonzalez?
See above.
 

jon abbey

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I think it's 3 currently, and one can be Sale to the 60 day IL next week (he is the only one, right?), but yeah they need to make moves too.
 

joe dokes

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View: https://twitter.com/chriscotillo/status/1359758636793421832?s=21
Sox also signed C/OF Chris Herrmann in a minor league deal yesterday, a pretty good hitting catcher who posted a .323 xwOBA over his last four seasons (higher than any season of CV’s). He had a pretty solid reputation a couple years ago and if he looks good, he might provide some insurance if Bloom finds a Vaz trade he likes.
Surprised that he appears not related to former MLB catcher Ed Herrmann, who may have been the slowest baserunner I ever saw play in the 70s.

One thing I am looking forward to is Cora running a roster with multi-position platoon players in light of the 3-batter minimum.
 
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Red(s)HawksFan

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View: https://twitter.com/chriscotillo/status/1359758636793421832?s=21


Sox also signed C/OF Chris Herrmann in a minor league deal yesterday, a pretty good hitting catcher who posted a .323 xwOBA over his last four seasons (higher than any season of CV’s). He had a pretty solid reputation a couple years ago and if he looks good, he might provide some insurance if Bloom finds a Vaz trade he likes.
This is a good depth signing and decent insurance in case Vazquez or Plawecki get hurt. This is not insurance if Vazquez is traded.

Since 2016 (when Vazquez returned from his TJ surgery):
.262/.309/.402/.711 in 1508 PA for Vazquez
.221/.303/.386/.689 in 603 PA for Herrmann

And Vazquez is decidedly trending up while Herrmann (3 years older) is trending down. If Herrmann has meaningful playing time with the Sox, something's gone wrong.
 

BaseballJones

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Catchers (2)
Vazquez R
Plawecki R

Infielders (4)
Bogaerts R
Devers L
Dalbec R
Arroyo R

IF/OF (2)
Hernández R
González S

Outfielders (4)
Cordero L
Renfroe R
Verdugo L
Martínez R


So a typical starting lineup against RHP:

C - Vaz
1b - Dalbec
2b - Arroyo
3b - Devers
SS - Bogaerts
LF - Cordero
CF - Hernández
RF - Verdugo
DH - Martínez

Against LHP:

C - Vaz
1b - Dalbec
2b - Chavis
3b - Devers
SS - Bogaerts
LF - González
CF - Verdugo
RF - Renfroe
DH - Martínez

??
I'm guessing, obviously. There's quite a few interesting and/or versatile pieces here. We could see a lot of different lineup combinations.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Who’s the back-up SS? Gonzalez?? I know he’s played there, but not much recently, and not really well.
Kiké has some experience there (536 MLB innings) so he can probably do it in a pinch. Arroyo has done it too. I think Gonzalez is likely the primary back-up as he has the most experience, but he's three years removed from any significant time there.
 

chawson

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This is a good depth signing and decent insurance in case Vazquez or Plawecki get hurt. This is not insurance if Vazquez is traded.

Since 2016 (when Vazquez returned from his TJ surgery):
.262/.309/.402/.711 in 1508 PA for Vazquez
.221/.303/.386/.689 in 603 PA for Herrmann

And Vazquez is decidedly trending up while Herrmann (3 years older) is trending down. If Herrmann has meaningful playing time with the Sox, something's gone wrong.
More accurately, I think Plawecki's capacity to take on more than a backup's workload is the Vaz insurance, but you're probably right that I'm reading too much into a depth signing.

Still, I'm used to NRI catcher depth signings being good defensive backstops with no bat. It's kind of interesting that Herrman's hitting metrics are so decent. He's roughly the 15th best-hitting catcher from 2016-19. (Vaz is obviously better defensively.)

Since 2016 (when Vazquez returned from his TJ surgery):
.262/.309/.402/.711 in 1508 PA for Vazquez | .304 BABIP, 87.6 mph Avg. Exit Velocity, .300 xwOBA
.221/.303/.386/.689 in 603 PA for Herrmann | .280 BABIP, 89.3 mph Avg. Exit Velocity, .323 xwOBA
 

bosockboy

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Catchers (2)
Vazquez R
Plawecki R

Infielders (4)
Bogaerts R
Devers L
Dalbec R
Arroyo R

IF/OF (2)
Hernández R
González S

Outfielders (4)
Cordero L
Renfroe R
Verdugo L
Martínez R


So a typical starting lineup against RHP:

C - Vaz
1b - Dalbec
2b - Arroyo
3b - Devers
SS - Bogaerts
LF - Cordero
CF - Hernández
RF - Verdugo
DH - Martínez

Against LHP:

C - Vaz
1b - Dalbec
2b - Chavis
3b - Devers
SS - Bogaerts
LF - González
CF - Verdugo
RF - Renfroe
DH - Martínez

??
I'm guessing, obviously. There's quite a few interesting and/or versatile pieces here. We could see a lot of different lineup combinations.
Hernández isn’t going to platoon; he was signed to play every day.
 

johnnywayback

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I'm imagining a lineup against RHP that looks like:

CF Verdugo
SS Bogaerts
DH Martinez
3B Devers
2B Hernandez
LF Cordero
C Vazquez
1B Dalbec
RF Renfroe

With Gonzalez playing twice a week at 1B, twice a week at 2B (moving Hernandez to CF and Verdugo to RF), and once a week in the outfield.

Against LHP

RF Verdugo
SS Bogaerts
DH Martinez
3B Devers
CF Hernandez
LF Renfroe
C Vazquez
1B Dalbec
2B Arroyo

With Gonzalez playing four times a week in LF (once moving Renfroe to RF and sitting Verdugo, 3x moving Renfroe to RF, Verdugo to CF, Hernandez to 2B) and twice a week at 2B.
 

Danny_Darwin

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I think there’s maybe some justification in trying Chavis as a strict platoon bat against righties, since he’s had a reverse split his entire MLB career. He hit everyone poorly in 2020, but he was less bad against RHPs. If the plan is to find some kind of role for him, that might not be a bad place to start. I say this as someone who’s not particularly confident in his future.
 

Dewey'sCannon

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I expect to see Marwin used mostly at 1B and LF against LHP to platoon with Dalbec and Renfroe.

The thing I'm not sure of is whether they just keep Verdugo as an everyday RF, and use Cordero in CF (at least against RHP, and maybe Hernandez there against LHP) or whether the use Verdugo in CF some or all of the time. However, I don't know that it really effects who's in the lineup - just where they play.
 

DeadlySplitter

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I feel like all the outfield combinations we're going to see (especially at CF) is going to really hurt the defense. We're going to be missing Beni & JBJ knowing how to play the wall, at least in the early going. Versatility and all, but continuity out in the grass at Fenway is really important and that's been lost with this approach to the roster.

We have what, 6 players probably making the initial 26 man roster that can play the outfield (Cordero, Renfroe, Verdugo, JDM, Gonzalez, Hernandez), but no true CF? it's my biggest gripe with what Chaim's done this winter. And if Verdugo does head there, then there's a gaping hole in Fenway RF where you want a CF-like player there.
 

chawson

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I feel like all the outfield combinations we're going to see (especially at CF) is going to really hurt the defense. We're going to be missing Beni & JBJ knowing how to play the wall, at least in the early going. Versatility and all, but continuity out in the grass at Fenway is really important and that's been lost with this approach to the roster.

We have what, 6 players probably making the initial 26 man roster that can play the outfield (Cordero, Renfroe, Verdugo, JDM, Gonzalez, Hernandez), but no true CF? it's my biggest gripe with what Chaim's done this winter. And if Verdugo does head there, then there's a gaping hole in Fenway RF where you want a CF-like player there.
Hernandez is pretty close to a true center fielder. I'm not sure what the best fielding metrics are lately, but according to Fangraphs, he's averaged 12.5 runs saved per 150 games in CF over all his innings there accumulated from 2018-20 (527 innings).

That puts him 6th among MLB CFs over that period, behind Keon Broxton, Harrison Bader, Trent Grisham, Kevin Kiermaier, and Byron Buxton (min. 500 innings). Small sample size and YMMV with fielding metrics and all, but he could be a very good center fielder. (Verdugo's UZR is +2.8 runs saved per 150 games in CF in 523 innings over 2018-20, but also had a serious back injury last year.)
 
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Yo La Tengo

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Hernandez is pretty close to a true center fielder.
This is what I'm thinking as well. Renfroe/Cordero will platoon in left, Hernadez in center, and Verdugo in right. Gonzalez (2B and 1B), Chavis (2B and 1B), Dalbec (1B), and maybe Arroyo (2B) will make up the right side of the infield. As discussed upstream, CF defense is so much more important than second base defense that it would make no sense to put Hernandez at second and create a problem in center.
 

johnnywayback

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This is what I'm thinking as well. Renfroe/Cordero will platoon in left, Hernadez in center, and Verdugo in right. Gonzalez (2B and 1B), Chavis (2B and 1B), Dalbec (1B), and maybe Arroyo (2B) will make up the right side of the infield. As discussed upstream, CF defense is so much more important than second base defense that it would make no sense to put Hernandez at second and create a problem in center.
I agree with this -- the only reason I had suspected otherwise was that Hernandez seemed to think he'd signed to play 2B and Bloom had talked (I think at the Benintendi presser) about his comfort with Verdugo in CF.
 

Yo La Tengo

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I agree with this -- the only reason I had suspected otherwise was that Hernandez seemed to think he'd signed to play 2B and Bloom had talked (I think at the Benintendi presser) about his comfort with Verdugo in CF.
If Verdugo is a good or better centerfielder, this could change the alignments, but only if the braintrust wants Renfroe and Cordero to play everyday. My impression is that Renfroe can handle right field but I'm not sold on Cordero staying healthy or Renfroe hitting righties and Cordero hitting lefties.
 

allmanbro

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The Rays over the last few years have really not had anything like a set lineup. It seems like Bloom has built a similar roster here. We may see all of these variants at different times, and we may also be left, from the outside, unsure exactly how we should summarize the actual roles of several players.
 

woodros04!

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Lot's of combinations are possible. The lineup could look different every day. I was still hopeful for a JBJ reunion right up until they signed Gonzalez. With so many question marks in the starting rotation, defenders who can steal some outs could make a big difference. I would like to see Hernandez play in the outfield a fair amount as he is a plus defender out there.
 

KingChre

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Jul 31, 2009
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Garrett Richards at $10 million
Rich Hill at $2.5 million

which contract is a better deal?
I don't believe Boston was an option for Hill regardless of contract. He made it abundantly clear in a November interview with Rob Bradford that he was looking at continuing his career with a World Series contender only.

The article is linked below, but I've pulled out what I believe is the most relevant part. (Pardon me for any formatting issues, I don't post often)

Now it's almost looking at Vegas and seeing who is going to win the World Series next year and calling them up. That's how I feel. I want to win a World Series and I want to be a part of that.
 

richgedman'sghost

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Just curious as it's been reported that Colin McHugh has signed elsewhere. Why weren't the Red Sox interested in re signing him? I realize that he is returning from injury but as back of the rotation depth, think he would have fit in nicely. Was Red Sox management turned off by what transpired last year? I just find it weird that the Sox did not make an attempt to keep him.
 

Yo La Tengo

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Garrett Richards at $10 million
Rich Hill at $2.5 million

which contract is a better deal?
I prefer the Richards deal because of the situation the Sox are in for 2021: I think Richards has a better chance of high performance over the course of the season (primarily due to his age). If he manages to stay healthy all year, and throws 175 innings that match his career stats, I think the Sox have a chance to compete for a wild card spot (this would require lots of other pieces falling in to place). If Hill pitches to his potential (something like 80-100 very good innings) I don't think that would be enough to make the Sox competitive due to the team's other question marks in the rotation. But, I could see an argument that Hill ($2.5) plus McHugh ($1.8)would be a better use of funds (fully recognizing that Hill and McHugh may not have wanted to come to Boston).
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Just curious as it's been reported that Colin McHugh has signed elsewhere. Why weren't the Red Sox interested in re signing him? I realize that he is returning from injury but as back of the rotation depth, think he would have fit in nicely. Was Red Sox management turned off by what transpired last year? I just find it weird that the Sox did not make an attempt to keep him.
The Rays signed him for a reported $1.85M. I assume that's a big league contract requiring him to be added to the 40-man. The Red Sox are already in a bit of a 40-man crunch. When they signed him last year, he was going to start the season on the IL, likely the 60-day IL so he was long-term depth (a mid-season acquisition in March). I don't think that would be the case this year, and they don't really have a place for him on the Opening Day roster barring injuries.
 

chrisfont9

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I prefer the Richards deal because of the situation the Sox are in for 2021: I think Richards has a better chance of high performance over the course of the season (primarily due to his age). If he manages to stay healthy all year, and throws 175 innings that match his career stats, I think the Sox have a chance to compete for a wild card spot (this would require lots of other pieces falling in to place). If Hill pitches to his potential (something like 80-100 very good innings) I don't think that would be enough to make the Sox competitive due to the team's other question marks in the rotation. But, I could see an argument that Hill ($2.5) plus McHugh ($1.8)would be a better use of funds (fully recognizing that Hill and McHugh may not have wanted to come to Boston).
If you believe what apparently the Sox are saying about Richards' ceiling, it's not even close. Hill is a one-year stopgap for a team whose window is open now. Richards, if healthy, is more like a 4-year building block. Obviously he's on a 1&1 deal so if he's great again the Sox will have to compete for his services after 2022. And unhealthy or diminished Richards isn't anything special. But we don't need Hill for a team that's rebuilding (realistically) for the 2022-23-24 years, at the earliest.
 

allmanbro

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I don't expect a ton from this team win-wise in 2021, but even so I think it should be a fun team to watch. Rooting for breakouts/rebounds for any of Cordero, Richards, Edro, Pivetta, Renfroe, Dalbec etc. will be fun, even if the team doesn't make a significant run at a wild card spot. And they still might manage that.
 

nvalvo

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I don't expect a ton from this team win-wise in 2021, but even so I think it should be a fun team to watch. Rooting for breakouts/rebounds for any of Cordero, Richards, Edro, Pivetta, Renfroe, Dalbec etc. will be fun, even if the team doesn't make a significant run at a wild card spot. And they still might manage that.
I agree, and I’d add Downs and Duran and Houck and Mata and Seabold. We have real talent in the high minors whose progress could make this season very exciting.

Plus, Kiké is eminently watchable, both as an engaging personality with fun positive vibes and a slick defender at multiple positions.
 

chawson

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View: https://twitter.com/chriscotillo/status/1361853282394734594?s=21


Heller still has an option remaining and he’s gotta be better than at least one of Walden, Brewer or Brice. Very hard thrower the Yanks got in the Andrew Miller trade. Struck out a ton in the minors then had Tommy John surgery at the start of 2018 and has only pitched 13 major league innings since. He’s 29 and under team control for three more seasons.