i think most folks are just asking him to be something more than a zero on defense.
Mavs give up
- Thread starter Phil Plantier
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Remind me how old Jordan and Lebron were when they won their first championships? Chamberlain? Shaq? Hakeem? Jerry West? Garnett?
Top-20-all-time players, nevermind ordinary all-NBA types, would be failures under the standards some here are proposing to judge Doncic by. Karl Malone was a scrub, huh?
Correct!David Ortiz should have been so much closer in many MVP races
View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u83_7cC0fLQ
Lebron missed the playoffs in his 19yo and 20yo seasons and then played no fewer than 11 playoff games until his age 34 season. He never missed. He's like the poster child for dragging crap teams deep in the playoffs.
Doncic is still young. I'm not saying that he'll never amount to anything. I just said that he was overrated. People have him as a top 5 player, and the top 5 players don't finish as the 11 seed ever.
He's not unique. Lots of one-way guys miss the playoffs or flame out in the first round.
He's not 21 year old Lebron, which is ok. The only person on the radar who may end up having that kind of impact isn't even in the league yet.
And the bolded is absolutely not true. Kevin Garnett won the MVP in 2004 and at 27 was in his absolute prime having made back to back 1st team all-NBA...then his team missed the playoffs 3 straight years before he left for Boston, finishing 9th, 14th and 13th (with Garnett averaging 78 games played per year). LeBron left Cleveland in 2018 after finishing 2nd in the MVP voting, and basically everyone still thinking he was a top 2 player...then the Lakers went 37-45 and finished in 10th place his first year in LA (he missed some time, but they were still just a .500 team with him). Kareem won the MVP award 3 times in 4 years from 1974-1977, and somehow missed the playoffs twice in that stretch.
Even the best players need some semblance of a team behind them.
*edit - Bob Pettit missed the playoffs in 1962, Kobe missed the playoffs in 2005, Barkley missed the playoffs in 1988 and 1992, the list goes on. A startling number of top 5 (or at least top 10) players missed the playoffs in their prime.
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I mean, that's basically a list of overrated players. All great players, but all overrated.
Outside of Lebron's first year at an absolute clownshow org at age 34, you're basically listing guys who got more MVP votes than they deserved and who underachieved in championships relative to their perceived talent.
Outside of Lebron's first year at an absolute clownshow org at age 34, you're basically listing guys who got more MVP votes than they deserved and who underachieved in championships relative to their perceived talent.
I picked my list by going through the Backpicks Top 40 greatest players of all time, generally our go-to for quality NBA analysis, to see who else hadn't won a title by age 24. Turns out it's about as common for them as it was to win one. I only looked at the top dozen or so.
We could keep going, if the point wasn't made. David Robinson (37). Nowitzki (32). Durant (28). Moses Malone (27). Rick Barry (30). Jason Kidd (37). Paul Pierce (30). Clyde Drexler (32). Ray Allen (32). Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Barkley, John Stockton, Patrick Ewing, Reggie Miller, Elgin Baylor - all never.
Your attempts to distinguish those as "players who underachieved", when they're the greatest players of all time, are really kinda weird.
We could keep going, if the point wasn't made. David Robinson (37). Nowitzki (32). Durant (28). Moses Malone (27). Rick Barry (30). Jason Kidd (37). Paul Pierce (30). Clyde Drexler (32). Ray Allen (32). Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Barkley, John Stockton, Patrick Ewing, Reggie Miller, Elgin Baylor - all never.
Your attempts to distinguish those as "players who underachieved", when they're the greatest players of all time, are really kinda weird.
I'm lost as to when I said anything about Luka winning titles or that he should have done it by now. Honestly. I said that he's overrated.
Guy is overrated. He might not be at some point. But he's a one way player who gives back points in chunks on defense and whose team hasn't done shit in four of his five years in the league. Let's compare that to say Jayson Tatum who has been in a finals, other conference finals and has 74 playoff games under his belt in five years in the league. Jaylen Brown was injured for his fifth playoff year but appeared in 61 playoff games in his first four years. Doncic has 28 playoff games in five years (assuming none this year).
Tatum played 24 playoff games last year. That's four less than Doncic in his first five years in the league. It's unfathomable that people still value super high usage volume scorers who are turnstiles on defense when we see time after time that this approach doesn't win.
The question was Jaylen Brown, Marcus Smart and all the picks for Luka. Some people felt that that was too much. Then it devolved to this.
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I compare him to Iverson, guys I love watching play... for other teams. Although I find it amusing that the same people that endlessly complain about Tatum working the refs are orgasming over the WOAT.
It's really tough building a team around Luka because you're playing 4 on 5 on one end of the floor. Which dictates the personnel really strictly. It's much easier putting a team around Tatum/Brown. Two way wings are just the currency of the modern game and I'm happy that Boston has two of them as their foundation (even if Jaylen can be a little absent minded on defense at times).
Yeah, Luka has some flaws, but his record before this year is zero cause for concern.
In his 2nd year he took a team with 1 other NBA starter to the playoffs as a 7 seed and was up 2-1 when that player got hurt (Porzingis), against the 2 seed fully healthy PG/Kawhi Clippers.
In his 3rd year he ended up in the 5 seed, took the same Clippers to 7 games.. BOBAN started and played 30 minutes in that game, DFS and Tim Hardaway Jr played 82 combined minutes.
In his 4th year they get the 4 seed, beat the 5 seed Jazz (end the team as we know it), Beat the Suns with Luke putting up 30/10/7, then they lose to the championship Warriors, Davis Bertans, Reggie Bullock and Frank Ntilkina were key parts of the WCF rotation.
This year was a disaster.... but, they were the 4 seed when Kyrie showed up, and we've seen enough Kyrie to know how that goes.
In his 2nd year he took a team with 1 other NBA starter to the playoffs as a 7 seed and was up 2-1 when that player got hurt (Porzingis), against the 2 seed fully healthy PG/Kawhi Clippers.
In his 3rd year he ended up in the 5 seed, took the same Clippers to 7 games.. BOBAN started and played 30 minutes in that game, DFS and Tim Hardaway Jr played 82 combined minutes.
In his 4th year they get the 4 seed, beat the 5 seed Jazz (end the team as we know it), Beat the Suns with Luke putting up 30/10/7, then they lose to the championship Warriors, Davis Bertans, Reggie Bullock and Frank Ntilkina were key parts of the WCF rotation.
This year was a disaster.... but, they were the 4 seed when Kyrie showed up, and we've seen enough Kyrie to know how that goes.
Kobe and Kareem combined for 11 titles. Plenty of people overrate those two, especially Kobe, but I really don't know what to say if you think they underachieved in championships relative to their perceived talent.
Yeah, "Luka can't take mediocre teams into the playoffs and make them competitive there" is an incredibly bizarre, nonfactual take.
This all really feels to me like over-indexing on the worst individual and team stretch of his career.
Tatum also walked in to a team that had just won 53 games and been to an eastern finals and has never had a season where he wasn't playing with at least 2 other former all stars. He's great, but comparing what he and Luka have done without mentioning the insane talent gulf of their teammates is pretty dumb.
This would be a hilarious and proportional punishment. They could even just move it back by the amount of the advantage gained by specifically tanking the Bulls game.
Contra the "oh but other teams tanked" side: Dallas was trying to have it both ways, because they need to keep Luka happy. They can't just shut him down in the prime of his career, and they need to try to compete to keep him happy.
Then they tried to switch lanes in the last couple games, and go to the tank, which is where the discontinuity jars people. I think there's an intuition that if you're going to tank, you need to absorb the player and fan dissatisfaction that comes with it, and the Mavs tried to have their cake and eat it instead.
There are plenty of other NBA teams that will mortgage everything for Luka. I'd expect Brad to veer away from giving away the farm (JB/Smart/picks) for Luka and continue to work on the edges of this roster.
Plus I'm not a huge fan of the fit. Tatum & Luka would turn into MY TURN-YOUR TURN, walk it up, pound the ball, ISOfest at the top. While getting worse on defense. I just watched a bunch of that in Dallas over the last month on my League Pass.
Luka is one of the 3 best offensive players in the NBA today, which for some bizarre reason translates into Luka being a TOP 3 player by some. He just isn't.
Just the fact that he's mentioned in the same breath as Kobe, Kareem, MJ, TOP40 all-timers tells us everything about the hype around him. One of these years he'll show up in shape, play some D and be a TOP3 player but until then he's clearly overrated. This season was a step back & pairing him with Kyrie is going to be toxic for his development.
Plus I'm not a huge fan of the fit. Tatum & Luka would turn into MY TURN-YOUR TURN, walk it up, pound the ball, ISOfest at the top. While getting worse on defense. I just watched a bunch of that in Dallas over the last month on my League Pass.
Luka is one of the 3 best offensive players in the NBA today, which for some bizarre reason translates into Luka being a TOP 3 player by some. He just isn't.
Just the fact that he's mentioned in the same breath as Kobe, Kareem, MJ, TOP40 all-timers tells us everything about the hype around him. One of these years he'll show up in shape, play some D and be a TOP3 player but until then he's clearly overrated. This season was a step back & pairing him with Kyrie is going to be toxic for his development.
Both great players, but also overrated. And Kareem did play defense, and Kobe could (though he really picked his spots). People have Kareem in the goat conversation and Kobe in the top 10 conversation, when both drafted off of their teammates quite a bit. I mean, Shaq and Magic are probably underrated by as much as Kobe and Kareem are overrated, but peoples love counting stats.
Except that Luka's BPM and DARKO graphs since game 1 of Season 2 (a span of four seasons now) is essentially a straight line. This is who he is. You guys keep looking at the 16yo who dominated Europe, but he’s a doughy 24yo one-way player who hasn't improved an iota in the most important developmental phase of his career. Unless he gets hit by lightning or a visit from the ghost of playoffs future, that's the guy--righthanded Harden who somehow plays less defense. But it's Cuban's fault or Kyrie's fault, ok.
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The NBA is far more talent rich than it has been in may previous generations (and certainly more than in the 2000s and early 2010s) to the degree that having one really spectacular player today is not as valuable as it used to be in the sense that that one player just guaranteed you 45+ wins, regardless of supporting cast. So I don't find the comparisons to KG, or early LeBron really that indicative of anything. It's a different world in the NBA today.
Also, if you take out the final tanking games, Dallas is really only a couple of games behind finishing in like, the 6th seed in the West. So we are really looking at a couple swing games during the season that is the narrative difference between "Luka couldn't even make the play-in!" and "Luka dragged this shitty team to the 6th seed!" and that is just silly.
Also, if you take out the final tanking games, Dallas is really only a couple of games behind finishing in like, the 6th seed in the West. So we are really looking at a couple swing games during the season that is the narrative difference between "Luka couldn't even make the play-in!" and "Luka dragged this shitty team to the 6th seed!" and that is just silly.
One of the best seasons I’ve ever seen a player have was when the Lakers started Smush Parker, Chris Mihm, Kwame Brown and Lamar Odum’s crack pipe yet Kobe dragged them to 45 Wins and a G7 playoff game. Not even Doncic/Kyrie’s supporting cast was this bad.
The Mavs problem all year has been the makeup of their roster. Pre-trade, they didn’t have anyone to take the offensive load off Luka and lost close games in part due to being at an end of game overall talent deficit especially on the defensive end. Post-trade they lost a TON of late possession games due to poor cohesion between Luke and Kyrie while still being at a talent/role player deficit at the other spots especially on the defensive end. If you look closely you can see they are close to being a good team…..but they really are very far from being a good team without an overhaul. This is a crucial summer for the organization and I’d have no idea where to begin if I were them.
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As a Celtics fan, I would be incredibly happy if Jaylen and Luka's DARKOs are correct, because it implies that the Cs' future is incredibly bright. I just don't buy it, because Luka has been so good offensively, in a way that has translated into consistent winning at the NBA level with pretty mediocre rosters.
Good god man.
Lebron, Kareem, Garnett, Petit, Kobe
I know we all hate Kobe and maybe he is overrated, but those other dudes? Again, wtf?
Kobe was also really, really good at basketball and at winning basketball games with good rosters and horrible rosters. Jimbo is kinda HRB'ing here.
^^^This is pure gold, had me laughing^^^
As we head to the playoffs the board is getting salty
Happy Easter, Passover, or Master's Sunday to all...
I think that when I talk about a guy being overrated, people infer that I think that they suck.
My point is that the pointz people overrate guys with pointz and that I hope for us to do better. All of those guys are all time greats. That doesn't mean that they can't also be overrated. Just like Luka.
Serious question--does this board think that Luka is a top 5 player on earth?
Edit: I never called Lebron overrated. Man carried bums to the finals like a sherpa.
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I think people underestimate the team building challenges of having a player like Luka. Great on-ball players/poor off-ball players will raise your floor, but they can also impose a ceiling. They limit the ways the other players on the roster can contribute to winning.
</Bill Simmons>Luka is definitely top 8 of all players right now out of top 5 guys of the last 17 years.<Bill Simmons>
If he's not a top-5 player, he's very close. He's also a really good 16-game player.
The runs he has done with the supporting casts he's had are about what I'd expect someone like Durant or Giannis to do with those casts.
Relative to younger guys, he's better than Shai, and it's close with him and Tatum, although I'd take Tatum clearly right now.
So who were you taking about besides Kobe in the post you quoted that talked about Lebron, KG, Kareem, and Petit?
I thought that this part was clear: "Outside of Lebron's first year at an absolute clownshow org at age 34, you're basically listing guys who got more MVP votes than they deserved".
I'll drop this for now. Everyone loves Luka, fine. I think that he's closer to Dame than Tatum, i.e. great offensive player who will hang around the 8 seed until he gets paired with the right guy.
Luka can’t play defense and there are going to start to be legitimate conversations around whether he is someone that is impossible to play with.
It’s incredibly hard to set up a team around a guy that doesn’t do shit off-ball and doesn’t try on defense. Not to mention the fact that he’s never seemed terribly interested in getting into even decent shape.
Kevin O’Connor relayed a story on the latest episode of The Mismatch where he interviewed Luka the year where they got Porzingis. He asked Luka if they acquired another guard who could handle the ball and shoot the 3 if Luka was willing to do more of ball (set screens, move to unlock other players)…he said Luka looked at him like he had 10 heads and showed 0 interest. That’s an incredibly bad omen
It’s incredibly hard to set up a team around a guy that doesn’t do shit off-ball and doesn’t try on defense. Not to mention the fact that he’s never seemed terribly interested in getting into even decent shape.
Kevin O’Connor relayed a story on the latest episode of The Mismatch where he interviewed Luka the year where they got Porzingis. He asked Luka if they acquired another guard who could handle the ball and shoot the 3 if Luka was willing to do more of ball (set screens, move to unlock other players)…he said Luka looked at him like he had 10 heads and showed 0 interest. That’s an incredibly bad omen
Kareem's impassioned defense of himself (saw the movie last night).
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArHNrCvwq4c
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArHNrCvwq4c
That doesn’t surprise me in the least. He’s incredibly fun to watch on offense. But he’d be equally frustrating to watch on D if he were on my team. I’m happy to watch him lead the Mavs. Let it be their problem.
OK, so not Lebron. You are calling KG, Kareem, and Pettit overrated?
I understand the sentiment, but I don't see how to square this with Luka first 5 years in the league, in which he's already had a number of decent playoff runs while not being "paired with the right guy."
"Luka is tricky to build around" is a legit opinion, but "Luka can't take mediocre teams on playoff runs" has been proven wrong a few times before he's hit his 25th birthday.
You can be low on Luka, and question the championship upside of teams featuring him, but these takes about his being a losing player are unmoored from reality.
Media-driven player rankings are 90% based on POINTZ
That's why players like Zach LaVine, Trae Young & Bradley Beal are Maxing out while their teams struggle in purgatory. They learned long ago that casuals will clamor for baskets, GMs will feel the pressure, & defense leads to a shortened off-season.
Two-way WINGs are NBA gold. If Jaylen is moved, then a two-way WING would need to be returned.
Jimbo's basic argument was Luka is overrated.
Then folks started lumping in guys like Bron, KG, Kareem & Petit with Luka...which is further proof that Luka is overrated
I jumped in to point out that an argument against Luka that is based on "well he hasn't dragged a team to a championship yet and he's 24, he's no spring chicken!" is nonsense, because even a lot of the all-time greats hadn't won a championship by age 24, nevermind dragged a subpar team to one. So that's a pretty silly way to try and argue against the merits of an all-NBA level player.
Nobody was comparing Luka Doncic to an all-time great.
Nobody was comparing Luka Doncic to an all-time great.
That would be me initially, and the intent wasn't to compare Luka to those guys. Jimbo posted that top 5 players don't finish 11th, which is why I brought up a bunch of NBA 75 guys who missed the playoffs (sometimes during their prime) as proof that even top 5 guys can occasionally miss the playoffs.
Luka's obvious Comp is James Harden. Ball dominant scorer/passer with low effort on D, but enough size that he's better on that end than Dame. I don't see him as an 8 seed guy. This year was a disaster (and had some tank reasons in play), but they were in the 4-5-6 chase the last several and that's the team I expect them to be, with a real chance at top 3 seeds if they hire a competent NBA coach and build a roster around his weaknesses.
I think there are legit reasons to worry about Luka on D, but not in terms of team success. He's already had more playoff success than Joel Embiid for example (or Jokic)... individual dominance doesn't really matter in the NBA in this era, you need 2-3 guys who fit playing All-Star level.
Edit- also a chance he forces his way out and turns it around elsewhere, since DAL is sneakily one of the worst run franchises in the league
OK. Luka can be surrounded with crap 3-15, not make the playoffs, and still be overrated...they are not mutually exclusive.
The amazing part is over the last 5 seasons whenever Luka goes to the bench the Mavs don't fall apart with all the garbage around him. Yet teams with Tatum, Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Curry, Butler, Durant, LeBron, Kawhi etc all hold their breath when those players are off the floor.
Fine, he's overrated. He's 2nd all-time in playoff ppg and he's one of three players to make 1st team all-NBA 3 times before age 24 (along with Duncan and Durant), and literally no one following the NBA, outside of a few people in this thread, would say no to a Brown+ for Luka deal.
I don't really care about the fake trade since I've said a few times that other teams would bid multiples of what Boston would.
I suspect other teams would trip over themselves for a 3x All NBA player while Brad may feel that's not the best metric to measure players.