March/April: Red Sox discussion, observations and trend tracking...AKA It's not all about the Benjamins

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2022
1,209
It's a natural question. One thing to look at is Bailey's tenure with the Giants 2020-2023. How did those staffs fare injury-wise?
Depends on the year.

2022 they were pretty healthy. Webb and Rodon both started 30 plus. Cobb started 28. Wood started 26. In 2023, not so much. Webb remained dependably excellent (33 starts) and Cobb hit 28 again. Rodon was in NY and got hurt again (as he does basically every year) but that isn't something that can be attributed to Bailey because, again, it happens almost every year.

Relative to this year - Pivetta is the one I question. He's been pretty damn dependable his entire career. Same for Giolito. Whitlock, I mean, he also gets hurt every year. Bello I seem to recall missing the first couple of weeks last year (forearm, I think) so maybe he's just a guy that takes a while to really get going. That'll bear watching to see if he comes right back and then posts every 5 days (like last year) or not.

I'm certainly no expert, but I found this interesting reading about pitch type and stress on the arm. It looks as though the two pitches that Pivetta favors (4 seam and sweeper) are quite strenuous for a pitcher but that change was made pre Bailey and Breslow, so it would be tough to blame anything on that change.

https://rocklandpeakperformance.com/how-different-are-torque-levels-across-various-pitch-types/

My take away - of course Whitlock got hurt, that happens all the time. Pivetta and Giolito are straight up bad luck. Kind of like the difference between O'Neill getting hurt in various ways (of course he will) vs Casas (are you effing kidding me). Bello is the TBD of the bunch.
 

Fishy1

Head Mason
SoSH Member
Nov 10, 2006
6,175
Team is 7th in SO/9 and 3rd in BB/9, making them fourth in SO/W ratio. Notably, there's a huge gap in SO/W between the top teams and everybody else. Minnesota and Seattle are sitting around 3.9, then there's a drop to the Orioles, who are at 3.65, then to the Red sox at 3.49, and then... bottom falls out. The next closest team is the Tigers, at 3.09, and then it's 2.95 and a slew of teams until league average at 2.53.

Which is just to say the Sox are among the very best at limiting contact and free baserunners, two crucial skills. They're also top ten so far in HR/9, at .8, which leads to a league-leading 3.25 FIP. Despite the onslaught of defensive miscues (and to be clear, there have been a lot of web gems too), they're fourth in runs allowed per game, with only the Royals, Guardians, and Yankees ahead of them, and just about tied with Seattle. They've got a league-leading 21 errors, but they actually have more company than you might think. Six teams with 17 errors, one with 17 (NYM), two with 19 (NYY and Pirates), and the A's have 20. League average is 14 errors.They've got a league-leading 21 errors, but they actually have more company than you might think. Six teams with 17 errors, one with 17 (NYM), two with 19 (NYY and Pirates), and the A's have 20. League average is 14 errors.

Offense is barely above league average by OPS+ (103). They're about league average in BBs, are second in the league in strikeouts (in the bad way) -- but they are 7th in total bases, so there's that. They're only behind the Orioles in home runs. Four of their guys have been injured or playing only intermittently. God only knows when we'll get Casas back (or what we'll be without him), but Devers, O'Neill and Abreu should all be playing more, I hope, going forward. And the others -- Yoshida,

I expect the pitching to dip, and the offense to come on (some). Casas and Devers were playing at or slightly above their projections. Wong has obviously been out of his mind, and O'Neill should be very good to great, but probably not a 207 OPS+ good. Abreu, too, is not a 170 OPS+ guy. Duran, at 98+, is disappointing, but pretty much projected, and Yoshida at 102 does not make me happy, but is only slightly worse than he was last year. Valdez, Reyes, and Rafaela cannot be as bad as they've been. Or I hope they can't.

The team awaits hopefully good news about the pitchers, and the return of Grissom and Casas. And no more fucking injuries.
 

cantor44

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2020
1,645
Chicago, IL
Team is 7th in SO/9 and 3rd in BB/9, making them fourth in SO/W ratio. Notably, there's a huge gap in SO/W between the top teams and everybody else. Minnesota and Seattle are sitting around 3.9, then there's a drop to the Orioles, who are at 3.65, then to the Red sox at 3.49, and then... bottom falls out. The next closest team is the Tigers, at 3.09, and then it's 2.95 and a slew of teams until league average at 2.53.

Which is just to say the Sox are among the very best at limiting contact and free baserunners, two crucial skills. They're also top ten so far in HR/9, at .8, which leads to a league-leading 3.25 FIP. Despite the onslaught of defensive miscues (and to be clear, there have been a lot of web gems too), they're fourth in runs allowed per game, with only the Royals, Guardians, and Yankees ahead of them, and just about tied with Seattle. They've got a league-leading 21 errors, but they actually have more company than you might think. Six teams with 17 errors, one with 17 (NYM), two with 19 (NYY and Pirates), and the A's have 20. League average is 14 errors.They've got a league-leading 21 errors, but they actually have more company than you might think. Six teams with 17 errors, one with 17 (NYM), two with 19 (NYY and Pirates), and the A's have 20. League average is 14 errors.

Offense is barely above league average by OPS+ (103). They're about league average in BBs, are second in the league in strikeouts (in the bad way) -- but they are 7th in total bases, so there's that. They're only behind the Orioles in home runs. Four of their guys have been injured or playing only intermittently. God only knows when we'll get Casas back (or what we'll be without him), but Devers, O'Neill and Abreu should all be playing more, I hope, going forward. And the others -- Yoshida,

I expect the pitching to dip, and the offense to come on (some). Casas and Devers were playing at or slightly above their projections. Wong has obviously been out of his mind, and O'Neill should be very good to great, but probably not a 207 OPS+ good. Abreu, too, is not a 170 OPS+ guy. Duran, at 98+, is disappointing, but pretty much projected, and Yoshida at 102 does not make me happy, but is only slightly worse than he was last year. Valdez, Reyes, and Rafaela cannot be as bad as they've been. Or I hope they can't.

The team awaits hopefully good news about the pitchers, and the return of Grissom and Casas. And no more fucking injuries.
It's amazing to think that they have been without two of the most important players on the team in Casas and Story. And have had the starting rotation ravaged by injuries. The performance of the team confirms my sense that they were closer than many folks believed before the start of the season and brings hope for 2025 at least. With health, the next wave of prospects and - hopefully - a key FA or two - this could be a strongly contending team next season. O'Niell might be gone, but keeping him and/or adding more RHH power will be key. Yes he, and Abreu and Wong will regress to mean. But it's not unreasonable to think that Abreu might well be a very good ML player. And we know what O'Niell's ceiling is when healthy.

Anything that happens this year is a bonus. But - so far at least - the performance of this team offers promise for the future. There is light at the end of the tunnel!
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
37,772
Hingham, MA
No one saw this coming. First in ERA, Second in Fwar, first in FIP and second in xfip.

View attachment 81746
Is this starters only?

I noticed today the Sox team ERA is 2.68, which is first in the league by a whopping 0.40.

But sadly, their RA/G is 3.66, which is absolutely nuts both on a total and relative basis. Nearly a run's worth of unearned runs per game, which is a 36.% increase vs. their ERA.
 

RS2004foreever

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 15, 2022
683
Is this starters only?

I noticed today the Sox team ERA is 2.68, which is first in the league by a whopping 0.40.

But sadly, their RA/G is 3.66, which is absolutely nuts both on a total and relative basis. Nearly a run's worth of unearned runs per game, which is a 36.% increase vs. their ERA.
It is - starters only.
The offense is 13th in RC+and 8th in wOBA.
The fielding is just a disaster, but seems to have stabilized with Rafaela at short and Abreu in right. Valdez has been better of late at second.
 

Fishy1

Head Mason
SoSH Member
Nov 10, 2006
6,175
Interesting Savant stuff to note with a couple of younger players: Valdez has been horrific offensively, but his HH% is 65th percentile, and his barrel percentage and average exit velocity are in the same range. His BABIP is just .182. That suggests a lot of bad luck, but I'm not sure he'll get a chance to ever prove it with Grissom coming back. His LD% is just 17%, though, so it's not like he's entirely getting screwed.
81751

And here's Wilyer:

81750

Savant seems to think Wilyer is getting away with a lot. BABIP is sitting at .373, and the HH% is down 6% over last year.
 

RS2004foreever

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 15, 2022
683
Interesting Savant stuff to note with a couple of younger players: Valdez has been horrific offensively, but his HH% is 65th percentile, and his barrel percentage and average exit velocity are in the same range. His BABIP is just .182. That suggests a lot of bad luck, but I'm not sure he'll get a chance to ever prove it with Grissom coming back. His LD% is just 17%, though, so it's not like he's entirely getting screwed.
View attachment 81751

And here's Wilyer:

View attachment 81750

Savant seems to think Wilyer is getting away with a lot. BABIP is sitting at .373, and the HH% is down 6% over last year.
On the radio last night they talked about the fact Valdez had been hitting the ball hard but getting nothing out to it - one state they mentioned was how frequently Valdez was hitting the ball 350 feet +.
 

azsoxpatsfan

Does not enjoy the go
SoSH Member
May 23, 2014
4,818
On the radio last night they talked about the fact Valdez had been hitting the ball hard but getting nothing out to it - one state they mentioned was how frequently Valdez was hitting the ball 350 feet +.
I saw on twitter last night that he has 7 95+ exit velo, 350+ foot outs this month
 

Daniel_Son

Member
SoSH Member
May 25, 2021
1,756
San Diego
Saw this on Reddit this morning. WAA rankings by position.

Who would've thought the Sox would have the best starting pitching in baseball through April? The corner outfield is also a nice surprise.

81766
 

RS2004foreever

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 15, 2022
683
Saw this on Reddit this morning. WAA rankings by position.

Who would've thought the Sox would have the best starting pitching in baseball through April? The corner outfield is also a nice surprise.

View attachment 81766
I know everyone knew Red Sox starting pitching would be better than Dodger pitching after the Dodgers signed Glasnow and Yamamoto and our only signing is out for the year.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
20,970
Maine
Is this starters only?

I noticed today the Sox team ERA is 2.68, which is first in the league by a whopping 0.40.

But sadly, their RA/G is 3.66, which is absolutely nuts both on a total and relative basis. Nearly a run's worth of unearned runs per game, which is a 36.% increase vs. their ERA.
A runs allowed per game of 3.66 is only sad in the context of a 2.68 ERA. In general, allowing fewer than 4 runs per game is great. Only one team did that last season (Milwaukee at 3.99).
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
24,666
Miami (oh, Miami!)
Interesting Savant stuff to note with a couple of younger players: Valdez has been horrific offensively, but his HH% is 65th percentile, and his barrel percentage and average exit velocity are in the same range. His BABIP is just .182. That suggests a lot of bad luck, but I'm not sure he'll get a chance to ever prove it with Grissom coming back. His LD% is just 17%, though, so it's not like he's entirely getting screwed.

And here's Wilyer:

Savant seems to think Wilyer is getting away with a lot. BABIP is sitting at .373, and the HH% is down 6% over last year.
Sometimes I think the cart is driving the horse as it were when it comes to some stats. Clearly, hitting the ball hard is a good thing. But it's one of many factors that go into a hit. You can have an approach that dead-center-warning-tracks 2/3rds of your batted ball and they're almost all going to be caught. Regardless of the resulting BABIP.

Oh - and speaking of. . .thanks to the nitty gritty of Savant, Valdez really isn't a mystery. Go to game logs/statcast, then sort by distance, direction, and lastly, result.

First let's look at last year. 764 OPS v. this year's .436.

Pulling - 34 PAs, .500 BA, 20 have a launch angle of 10 or less. 13 are hard hit (38%.)
Straight-away - 45 PAs, .234 BA, 25 have 10 or less. 34% hard hit.
Opposite - 21 PAs, .429 BA, 7 have 10 or less. 24% hard hit.

So pulling was great. Esp for 12 degrees or higher. 4 HRs, 3 2B, 2 1B, 4 field outs.
And hard hit when pulled? Again, the 4 HR, 2 2B, 4 1B, 2 field outs and 1 DP.

Clearly he should hit the ball hard and pull it in the air MOARZ.

***
So let's do that this year. First of all - his BB and K % jumps from 4% and 25% to 4% and 31%.

Pulling - 25 PAs, 13 have a launch angle of 10 or less. Improvement. 13 are also hard hit. Improvement.
Or is it?
Well, 5 of those hard hit balls are fly outs, as they're hit too steeply. So we end up with 2 HRs, 2 2Bs, and 4 1Bs overall. .320 BA. But not actually an improvement.

Straight-away - 20 PAs, only 3 have an angle 10 or less. Improvement. 10 are hard hit (50%) Improvement. Or is it?
Well, there are basically no line drives, just flyouts and popups, so we end up 3 singles, 2 SFs and 1 SB. .176 BA. So, not an improvement. Just weak in the air contact for outs.

Opposite - 12 PAs. Well, there are basically no line drives, so we end up with 1 double out of 12 PAs (2 ground outs.) .083 BA. So, also not an improvement.


In short he looks like he's trying to hit the ball hard and in the air, so he's swinging and selecting pitches to try to pull for power. In what I'm guessing is in accordance with what he was told to do. His overall EV is up 2mph and his launch angle has gone from 10 to 23.

He can keep doing this all year long, and even if he were to somehow muscle up his exit velocity a bit, the overall result is not going to change.

He needs a different approach - going after different pitches and trying to do different things with them. Because he does one thing well with this approach. And if I'm an opposing pitching coach, I'm not giving him fastballs he can pull in the air.

Which means, nothing middle middle or middle up. (Look at these zone maps:
https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/enmanuel-valdez-665839?stats=statcast-r-zones-mlb )

***
***

BTW, this is pretty similar problem to Yoshida - as far as the pulling/hit distribution angle goes, but he hits more liners and Ks much less.

Last year Yoshida's overall hits were almost perfectly evenly distributed at aprox. 50 per location - pull, straight-away, opposite. His field outs were 100, 100, 60.

When he was on, April 20th to Aug 28th or so, he put balls into play in an almost perfect ratio - 115, 118, 115.

After Aug 29, he became pull happy. 32 (.219 BA - 22 with a launch angle of 11 or below), 24 (.333), 11 (.545).

This year to date? 28 (.357 BA - 17 with a LA of 10 or below), 24 (.333), 17 (.235).

But up to April 16th? 22 (.273 BA 12 with a LA of 10 or below), 20 (.250), 13 (.231).

Afterward? (SSS!): 6, 4, 4,
 

Sox Pride

New Member
Nov 25, 2005
111
The Triangle
So.. I’ve been doing some back of the napkin analysis. But between the excellent starting pitching, the decent bullpen and the hitting that seems to be coming around, are we actually a good baseball team?
The team has had a lot of questions in the past. And it still does now, but it seems that now we’re hoping for younger players to live up to potential more than anything else.
 

Sin Duda

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
848
(B)Austin Texas
So.. I’ve been doing some back of the napkin analysis. But between the excellent starting pitching, the decent bullpen and the hitting that seems to be coming around, are we actually a good baseball team?
The team has had a lot of questions in the past. And it still does now, but it seems that now we’re hoping for younger players to live up to potential more than anything else.
I think the defense will get better with C-Note at SS and Grissom at 2B, the hitting will improve a little (Grissom is a ++, more players likely to improve than degrade), the relief pitching will improve a little, and a successful season will be weighing on how much or little the starting pitching regresses. If we stay Top 5 in MLB and the hitting improves to top 10, and defense top 20, we may make the playoffs. Hope springs eternal. I really hope Grissom hits the ground running. He has enough MLB experience that's he's no longer a rookie. It would be sweet if he could hit .290/.350/.450 and play above average D.
 

chrisfont9

Member
SoSH Member
Saw this on Reddit this morning. WAA rankings by position.

Who would've thought the Sox would have the best starting pitching in baseball through April? The corner outfield is also a nice surprise.

View attachment 81766
Whatever we think of Wilyer, debated above, his defense is showing up in charts like this, and that part isn't going anywhere I don't think. The collective OF defense is a big piece of the puzzle.
 

dynomite

Member
SoSH Member
Agreed that Wilyer had an incredible little run here, but is probably best suited to the role he's supposed to play: a platoon RF vs RHP.

I think the defense will get better with C-Note at SS and Grissom at 2B, the hitting will improve a little (Grissom is a ++, more players likely to improve than degrade), the relief pitching will improve a little, and a successful season will be weighing on how much or little the starting pitching regresses. If we stay Top 5 in MLB and the hitting improves to top 10, and defense top 20, we may make the playoffs. Hope springs eternal. I really hope Grissom hits the ground running. He has enough MLB experience that's he's no longer a rookie. It would be sweet if he could hit .290/.350/.450 and play above average D.
Right, I think some of this also depends upon health and mid-season acquisitions.

In the lineup, Casas is out until at least late June, but as late as August. Him being back sooner would obviously be better. In the rotation, they have obviously been incredible, but also need Bello, Whitlock, and Pivetta to be taking the ball on their turn.

It feels more important than in many prior years that the Red Sox have a good April, May, and June and demonstrate that the team should be buyers (Adames or Ha-Seong Kim at SS?) or at least "water treaders" as opposed to sellers (Kenley, O'Neill?) in July.

I've believed since the offseason this team could compete for a Wild Card spot. It's still April, so hard to even look ahead here, but at the moment with Houston looking terrible, and Tampa, Toronto, Texas and Minnesota looking mortal, you don't have to squint too hard to see a path to the playoffs.
 

HfxBob

New Member
Nov 13, 2005
636
So.. I’ve been doing some back of the napkin analysis. But between the excellent starting pitching, the decent bullpen and the hitting that seems to be coming around, are we actually a good baseball team?
What kind of question is that? :p

I've been following baseball for about 60 years now, and analyzing it seems to get more confounding all the time.
 

Fishy1

Head Mason
SoSH Member
Nov 10, 2006
6,175
Sometimes I think the cart is driving the horse as it were when it comes to some stats. Clearly, hitting the ball hard is a good thing. But it's one of many factors that go into a hit. You can have an approach that dead-center-warning-tracks 2/3rds of your batted ball and they're almost all going to be caught. Regardless of the resulting BABIP.

Oh - and speaking of. . .thanks to the nitty gritty of Savant, Valdez really isn't a mystery. Go to game logs/statcast, then sort by distance, direction, and lastly, result.

First let's look at last year. 764 OPS v. this year's .436.

Pulling - 34 PAs, .500 BA, 20 have a launch angle of 10 or less. 13 are hard hit (38%.)
Straight-away - 45 PAs, .234 BA, 25 have 10 or less. 34% hard hit.
Opposite - 21 PAs, .429 BA, 7 have 10 or less. 24% hard hit.

So pulling was great. Esp for 12 degrees or higher. 4 HRs, 3 2B, 2 1B, 4 field outs.
And hard hit when pulled? Again, the 4 HR, 2 2B, 4 1B, 2 field outs and 1 DP.

Clearly he should hit the ball hard and pull it in the air MOARZ.

***
So let's do that this year. First of all - his BB and K % jumps from 4% and 25% to 4% and 31%.

Pulling - 25 PAs, 13 have a launch angle of 10 or less. Improvement. 13 are also hard hit. Improvement.
Or is it?
Well, 5 of those hard hit balls are fly outs, as they're hit too steeply. So we end up with 2 HRs, 2 2Bs, and 4 1Bs overall. .320 BA. But not actually an improvement.

Straight-away - 20 PAs, only 3 have an angle 10 or less. Improvement. 10 are hard hit (50%) Improvement. Or is it?
Well, there are basically no line drives, just flyouts and popups, so we end up 3 singles, 2 SFs and 1 SB. .176 BA. So, not an improvement. Just weak in the air contact for outs.

Opposite - 12 PAs. Well, there are basically no line drives, so we end up with 1 double out of 12 PAs (2 ground outs.) .083 BA. So, also not an improvement.


In short he looks like he's trying to hit the ball hard and in the air, so he's swinging and selecting pitches to try to pull for power. In what I'm guessing is in accordance with what he was told to do. His overall EV is up 2mph and his launch angle has gone from 10 to 23.

He can keep doing this all year long, and even if he were to somehow muscle up his exit velocity a bit, the overall result is not going to change.

He needs a different approach - going after different pitches and trying to do different things with them. Because he does one thing well with this approach. And if I'm an opposing pitching coach, I'm not giving him fastballs he can pull in the air.

Which means, nothing middle middle or middle up. (Look at these zone maps:
https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/enmanuel-valdez-665839?stats=statcast-r-zones-mlb )

***
***

BTW, this is pretty similar problem to Yoshida - as far as the pulling/hit distribution angle goes, but he hits more liners and Ks much less.

Last year Yoshida's overall hits were almost perfectly evenly distributed at aprox. 50 per location - pull, straight-away, opposite. His field outs were 100, 100, 60.

When he was on, April 20th to Aug 28th or so, he put balls into play in an almost perfect ratio - 115, 118, 115.

After Aug 29, he became pull happy. 32 (.219 BA - 22 with a launch angle of 11 or below), 24 (.333), 11 (.545).

This year to date? 28 (.357 BA - 17 with a LA of 10 or below), 24 (.333), 17 (.235).

But up to April 16th? 22 (.273 BA 12 with a LA of 10 or below), 20 (.250), 13 (.231).

Afterward? (SSS!): 6, 4, 4,
Thanks for taking the trouble to hash this out. It squares with what I've seen about Valdez's approach so far, he's selling out to hit home runs. Last year he hit 17% line drives, which isn't great, this year just 12%. 55% fly balls so far this year is crazy high. Last time he hit over 50% fly balls was A+ ball in 2021. Otherwise he's been a low-mid 40's guy.

Yoshida, for what it's worth, actually has a higher wrc+ this year, 111 vs 109.
 

Max Power

thai good. you like shirt?
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
8,035
Boston, MA
Thanks for taking the trouble to hash this out. It squares with what I've seen about Valdez's approach so far, he's selling out to hit home runs. Last year he hit 17% line drives, which isn't great, this year just 12%. 55% fly balls so far this year is crazy high. Last time he hit over 50% fly balls was A+ ball in 2021. Otherwise he's been a low-mid 40's guy.

Yoshida, for what it's worth, actually has a higher wrc+ this year, 111 vs 109.
That's a function of offense being down across the league again.

81810

When the weather warms up, runs should increase some. But if it didn't, this would be the lowest OPS season in baseball in 35 years. And pitchers don't hit anymore.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
24,666
Miami (oh, Miami!)
Thanks for taking the trouble to hash this out. It squares with what I've seen about Valdez's approach so far, he's selling out to hit home runs. Last year he hit 17% line drives, which isn't great, this year just 12%. 55% fly balls so far this year is crazy high. Last time he hit over 50% fly balls was A+ ball in 2021. Otherwise he's been a low-mid 40's guy.

Yoshida, for what it's worth, actually has a higher wrc+ this year, 111 vs 109.
No problem - I'm pretty curious about the approach the hitters are taking. Abreu, Rafaela, Valdez, Yoshida - they've all gotten pull happy this year as opposed to 2023. While hitters have been getting pull-happy throughout the history of the game, it seems notable that we've got so many of them.

Abreu, BTW, is succeeding at this because he's also hitting line drives elsewhere. (Whereas Valdez's swing is resulting in too much loft.)

Wong is also pretty much in Abreu's boat - lots of line drives to the opposite field and up the middle. When he pulls, he pulls mostly for power (4 HRs) but otherwise, it's a grounder - a single or a field out. Very few line drives to LF.

Yoshida's tough to parse because he's got that cold start and weak finish thing bookending 2023. Those ABs "count" of course - but the question has always been how predictive which part(s) of his season are. His April 20th to Aug 28th numbers are amazingly balanced. He really did use the entire field.

Durran's another tough one to parse, given his different approaches. Last year he was pretty spread out, but went up the middle most often and with the greatest success. Regardless, he hit the snot out of the ball. 69% of his hits were hard-hit. The major difference between last year overall and this year so far? He's within what I'd guess would be normal variance for opposite field hits and going up the middle. But his hard-hit % is down when he pulls the ball. 41% to 26%.

To take a closer look at that, SSS and all:

He's pulled 31 balls this year, and 20 are under 0 degrees LA. Of those 20, there are 19 outs and 1 single (5 hard hit overall).

Last year? 80 pulled but only 40 at 0 or less LA. Of those 40, 36 outs and 6 singles. (9 hard hit overall.)

Or, to state it positively, last year when he pulled the ball 40 of 80 had a launch angle of 1 or more. 23 of the 40 were hard-hit. 23 of the 40 were hits: 2 HRs, 1 3B, 9 2B, 11 1B.

This year when he pulled the ball 11 of 31 had a launch angle of 1 or more. Overall only 3 of the 11 were hard-hit. 3 of the 11 were hits: 1 3B, 2 1B.

(Interestingly, both the 23 and the 3 hard hit balls did not always result in hits. Some of the hits were had lower EV. It just matched.)
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2007
6,505
No problem - I'm pretty curious about the approach the hitters are taking. Abreu, Rafaela, Valdez, Yoshida - they've all gotten pull happy this year as opposed to 2023. While hitters have been getting pull-happy throughout the history of the game, it seems notable that we've got so many of them.

Abreu, BTW, is succeeding at this because he's also hitting line drives elsewhere. (Whereas Valdez's swing is resulting in too much loft.)

Wong is also pretty much in Abreu's boat - lots of line drives to the opposite field and up the middle. When he pulls, he pulls mostly for power (4 HRs) but otherwise, it's a grounder - a single or a field out. Very few line drives to LF.

Yoshida's tough to parse because he's got that cold start and weak finish thing bookending 2023. Those ABs "count" of course - but the question has always been how predictive which part(s) of his season are. His April 20th to Aug 28th numbers are amazingly balanced. He really did use the entire field.

Durran's another tough one to parse, given his different approaches. Last year he was pretty spread out, but went up the middle most often and with the greatest success. Regardless, he hit the snot out of the ball. 69% of his hits were hard-hit. The major difference between last year overall and this year so far? He's within what I'd guess would be normal variance for opposite field hits and going up the middle. But his hard-hit % is down when he pulls the ball. 41% to 26%.

To take a closer look at that, SSS and all:

He's pulled 31 balls this year, and 20 are under 0 degrees LA. Of those 20, there are 19 outs and 1 single (5 hard hit overall).

Last year? 80 pulled but only 40 at 0 or less LA. Of those 40, 36 outs and 6 singles. (9 hard hit overall.)

Or, to state it positively, last year when he pulled the ball 40 of 80 had a launch angle of 1 or more. 23 of the 40 were hard-hit. 23 of the 40 were hits: 2 HRs, 1 3B, 9 2B, 11 1B.

This year when he pulled the ball 11 of 31 had a launch angle of 1 or more. Overall only 3 of the 11 were hard-hit. 3 of the 11 were hits: 1 3B, 2 1B.

(Interestingly, both the 23 and the 3 hard hit balls did not always result in hits. Some of the hits were had lower EV. It just matched.)
I've only watched a few games but it looked like early on, Yoshida was swinging slightly higher and straight through the zone while recently he's arced it across the zone swinging slightly upwards (I think....) which I'd guess would cut down on the grounders and get more over the infield.
Duran looks like he's trying to swing for more power over contact which I don't get. The guy just needs to get a single with the occasional no question double. He'll steal a base which I'm not sure how that shows up in OPS but shouldn't a single followed by a SB be scored as a double?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
20,970
Maine
I've only watched a few games but it looked like early on, Yoshida was swinging slightly higher and straight through the zone while recently he's arced it across the zone swinging slightly upwards (I think....) which I'd guess would cut down on the grounders and get more over the infield.
Duran looks like he's trying to swing for more power over contact which I don't get. The guy just needs to get a single with the occasional no question double. He'll steal a base which I'm not sure how that shows up in OPS but shouldn't a single followed by a SB be scored as a double?
Only if a single followed by a CS is scored as an non-hit.
 

Max Power

thai good. you like shirt?
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
8,035
Boston, MA
Depending on context in a way it should be. I'm not stat-savvy at all, so perhaps those two outcomes show up on another stat somewhere?
Why are stolen bases and caught stealing not good enough to capture what you're looking for?

Back in the 1880s, tagging up on fly balls and advancing on errors were counted as steals. Taking extra bases is kind of ignored in current stats, and I could see the argument of an "extra bases taken" stat where you get one for steals, one for other advances, and losing some for getting caught trying to steal or advance.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2007
6,505
Why are stolen bases and caught stealing not good enough to capture what you're looking for?

Back in the 1880s, tagging up on fly balls and advancing on errors were counted as steals. Taking extra bases is kind of ignored in current stats, and I could see the argument of an "extra bases taken" stat where you get one for steals, one for other advances, and losing some for getting caught trying to steal or advance.
Still looking for the all-inclusive offense stat.
 

shaggydog2000

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 5, 2007
11,619
I've only watched a few games but it looked like early on, Yoshida was swinging slightly higher and straight through the zone while recently he's arced it across the zone swinging slightly upwards (I think....) which I'd guess would cut down on the grounders and get more over the infield.
Duran looks like he's trying to swing for more power over contact which I don't get. The guy just needs to get a single with the occasional no question double. He'll steal a base which I'm not sure how that shows up in OPS but shouldn't a single followed by a SB be scored as a double?
Stolen/caught stealing doesn't factor into OPS, or wOBA or wRC. That is why separate base running stats exist, like wSB and UBR. But offensive WAR should include both. At least this is the fangraphs way, I don't know if baseball reference calculates anything differently.
 

nvalvo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
21,735
Rogers Park
Re Wong and Abreu: Wasn’t pull-side moonshots onto the parking structure (on pitches on the inner half) and oppo line drives for singles and doubles (on pitches on the outer half) basically the Manny Ramirez approach? It doesn’t seem like a bad idea, especially if, like Manny, you have enough juice in the swing to drive a few of those oppo pitches over the wall in congenial parks (and both of those players have very good EVs for smallish dudes). The SLG comes from deep fly balls on the inside pitches, the BA on lining the pitches away over the second baseman.

The bad idea is pulling the outside pitch. That’s what rarely works. Of course, it’s easier said than done: the pitch recognition required to implement the approach is the hardest part.
 

absintheofmalaise

too many flowers
Dope
SoSH Member
Mar 16, 2005
23,883
The gran facenda
Stolen/caught stealing doesn't factor into OPS, or wOBA or wRC. That is why separate base running stats exist, like wSB and UBR. But offensive WAR should include both. At least this is the fangraphs way, I don't know if baseball reference calculates anything differently.
B-Ref includes baserunning. Here's a blurb from their site on it.
Rbr, Baserunning Runs
Baserunning runs come from two places:

  • Stolen Bases and Caught Stealing runs as calculated above for wRAA (see above for a link to an explanation of this), and
  • Non-Basestealing baserunning which includes items like 1st to 3rd on singles, outs on the bases, tagging up on fly balls, scoring from third on a ground ball, etc...
This explanation describes the techniques used to estimate non-SB/CS baserunning contributions during the play-by-play era, 1931 to the present.

Obviously baserunners can advance while on first, second and third, but the mix of opportunities available to them is different for each of the three bases they may occupy. So for each player we track the number of occurrences for each of the following events for each base:
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
24,666
Miami (oh, Miami!)
Re Wong and Abreu: Wasn’t pull-side moonshots onto the parking structure (on pitches on the inner half) and oppo line drives for singles and doubles (on pitches on the outer half) basically the Manny Ramirez approach? It doesn’t seem like a bad idea, especially if, like Manny, you have enough juice in the swing to drive a few of those oppo pitches over the wall in congenial parks (and both of those players have very good EVs for smallish dudes). The SLG comes from deep fly balls on the inside pitches, the BA on lining the pitches away over the second baseman.

The bad idea is pulling the outside pitch. That’s what rarely works. Of course, it’s easier said than done: the pitch recognition required to implement the approach is the hardest part.
Wong is a RHH, Abreu is LHH - the dynamics of Fenway play into the approach a bit, given the player's ability to consistently generate hard contact.

But more than that, this isn't a Wong/Abreu question so much as it's an Abreu/Valdez question. Meaning, it's great if this strategy works with some players, but the club must field 9 hitters in each game.

We'd have been better off with the 2023 Valdez, as opposed to the revamped 2024 model. (Whomever did the revamping, it's on the hitting coaches to unvamp, or re-revamp or whatever.)

Likewise the 2023 Duran was good for a 121 OPS+. 2024 Duran seems to be swinging differently, and currently sits at a 96.
 

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
Why are stolen bases and caught stealing not good enough to capture what you're looking for?

Back in the 1880s, tagging up on fly balls and advancing on errors were counted as steals. Taking extra bases is kind of ignored in current stats, and I could see the argument of an "extra bases taken" stat where you get one for steals, one for other advances, and losing some for getting caught trying to steal or advance.
I'm not a stat head, but isn't the advancement of a base more often then not a reflection of what the batter did and not the baserunner?
 

nvalvo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
21,735
Rogers Park
I've only watched a few games but it looked like early on, Yoshida was swinging slightly higher and straight through the zone while recently he's arced it across the zone swinging slightly upwards (I think....) which I'd guess would cut down on the grounders and get more over the infield.
Duran looks like he's trying to swing for more power over contact which I don't get. The guy just needs to get a single with the occasional no question double. He'll steal a base which I'm not sure how that shows up in OPS but shouldn't a single followed by a SB be scored as a double?
Duran looks to me like he’s in a bit of a cat and mouse with opponents. If you look through his zone numbers over at statcast, they’re kind of weird.

He does a great job laying off low pitches, even some that are strikes, which is smart because he doesn’t do much with them when he hits them. So that’s where he’s pitched a lot, and early in the season his approach seems to have been to lay off those as much as possible: take walks low and then crush strikes. It worked.

But now it seems like teams are approaching him more above the strike zone, and he can get tempted on the high pitch. This is actually not terrible, because he sometimes does a ton of damage up there. Basically all of his barrels are up there and a healthy chunk of his hard hit balls in playbut also most of his ground balls!

It seems like there are some spots up and in and up and away where, if pitchers can hit them, he’ll hit a weak ground ball or a can of corn. But if they miss to the middle of the plate in or off the plate away (weird, I know), he can hit it hard.

So that’s the current struggle. He needs to get more discerning up high and not get himself out at the pitches he can’t handle, some of which might be called balls anyway. But he shouldn’t stop swinging up there, because he is in fact a strong dude who can drive the ball.

(Also, of course, part of this is just what he looks like with a BABIP .050 points lower than last year’s crazy .380.)
 

moondog80

heart is two sizes two small
SoSH Member
Sep 20, 2005
8,287
I'm not a stat head, but isn't the advancement of a base more often then not a reflection of what the batter did and not the baserunner?
Isn’t the measure “extra” bases? 1st to 3rd on a single, 1st to home on a double? Surely that has a lot to do with the exact characteristics of the single/double, but over the long haul the better/faster base runners will get more of those?