Making History: Panda and Hanley just had the 2nd and 3rd worst first seasons in free agency history

FanSinceBoggs

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Todd Frazier would be a nice option at 3b if Panda continues to suck. The problem is, Frazier will cost so much to acquire. Let's say the Red Sox offered the Reds Margot, Guerra, and Allen for Frazier; I wonder how close they would have been to meeting the Reds asking price. Of course, that would mean the Red Sox wouldn't have Kimbrel, one of the best closers in the game. But one could argue that this would have been a more prudent direction for the organization.

Hopefully, Panda has a big bounce back year making the Todd Frazier talk irrelevant going forward.
 
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opes

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Player A:

Code:
Year   Age  Tm Lg   G  PA  AB  R   H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB  SO   BA  OBP  SLG  OPS OPS+  TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB Pos
2015    29 MIN AL 152 632 573 74 140 35  4 22  86  2  1 50 124 .244 .307 .435 .742   99 249  28   4  1  4   0 *53

Player B:

Code:
Year   Age  Tm Lg   G  PA  AB  R   H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO   BA  OBP  SLG  OPS OPS+  TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB
2015    28 BOS AL 126 505 470 43 115 25  1 10  47  0  0 25 73 .245 .292 .366 .658   76 172  14   7  1  2   1

Player A is Trevor Plouffe, Player B is our boy Pablo. Currently the twins have a logjam. Miguel Sano was there main DH last year, Mauer is stuck at 1b, Plouffe at 3rd, and they just signed Byung Ho Park from Korea, who is a pure DH hitter. So far their brilliant plan is to put Sano out in RF. If they trade Plouffe, Sano can slot into 3rd, as that was his primary position in the minors.
Plouffe becomes a FA in 2018.
 

Rice4HOF

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It does no such thing. It rather strongly suggests that nobody could have predicted the extent to which they would suck.
Every time I read a thread and find something I strongly disagree with, and am ready to reply.... I keep reading and find that Ras has beaten me to it and probably said it much better than I would have.

But just to expand on the original thought Ras replied to:
... these signings were indeed fireable mistakes. A GM can make a bunch of decent transactions and can make moves that are defensible on paper but ultimately in pro sports it always comes down to actual performance and you can't make decisions with historically bad outcomes .....
Bull$hit. If the Angels offered to trade us Mike Trout for Allen Craig straight up, should we do it? Of course. What if Trout suffered an injury in spring training which affected his ability to hit and field, and Allen Craig returned to his potential form and turned into an all-star. The actual outcome of that trade would have ended up being bad, but no way anyone should be fired for it. Except maybe in the Angels FO. Even though it would end up good for them, you can't take credit for accurately forecasting Trout would become useless.
I wrote about this phenomenon in a business based blog, about how supervisors should judge employees' performance on their input and decision making process, not on the outcome on what they did. Take a look... I even threw in a Jeter reference in one of the examples: Judge Decision not Outcome
 

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Finding a third baseman that is better than Pablo isn't the problem. Finding someone to take Pablo off the Red Sox' hands is the problem. It's extremely unlikely to happen, and would result in the Red Sox either taking a bad contract back, or giving up something of value. Giving up something of value is a non-starter as far as I'm concerned, and taking on another bad contract is a terrible idea since it will likely be a starting pitcher or a position player that we don't have room for.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Todd Frazier would be a nice option at 3b if Panda continues to suck. The problem is, Frazier will cost so much to acquire. Let's say the Red Sox offered the Reds Margot, Guerra, and Allen for Frazier; I wonder how close they would have been to meeting the Reds asking price. Of course, that would mean the Red Sox wouldn't have Kimbrel, one of the best closers in the game. But one could argue that this would have been a more prudent direction for the organization.

Hopefully, Panda has a big bounce back year making the Todd Frazier talk irrelevant going forward.
Sooo, trade three prospects for an all star 3B when they're already committed to paying $78M to the position through the next four years. Then what? Pay $60M+ for someone to take Panda and his contract in order to open up 3B for Frazier. Then what do you do with the back end of the bullpen which was a far more pressing need heading into the off-season? Spend more money and prospects?

More prudent? In what world?
 

Rasputin

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Finding a third baseman that is better than Pablo isn't the problem. Finding someone to take Pablo off the Red Sox' hands is the problem.
Neither of these is the problem. People basing opinions (and therefore strategies) on outlier seasons is the problem.
 

benhogan

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"Mike Trout for Allen Craig - hypothetical trade" as a comp for signing Pablo Sandoval in free agency?
Straw man alert.

Everyone around here is HOPING for a bounce back season from Pablo and HOPING he'll show up to spring training in better shape. More then likely he is our opening day 3rd baseman, BUT the decision to sign Pablo last season was universally not loved by SoSH last fall. It was stated time and again that his weight, lack of conditioning and trending downward performance were red flags.

Its not a revisionist stance as some have said, it was a concern expressed by most of us that felt there were better, more cost effective options for 3rd.

Feel free to go back and read the 3rd base thread from last fall.
 

snowmanny

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It was a gamble to put Hanley at a position he'd never played. The fact that he couldn't play it at all is not bad luck it's bad scouting.

It was a gamble to sign a guy whose numbers in general were getting worse and had put up a .563 OPS against LHP in 2014. The fact that it further dropped to .485 in 2015 is the furthest thing from bad luck that exists.

To those of you who don't believe that John Henry should have held Ben Cherington accountable for these signings: I'll work for you anytime.
 

Rasputin

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It was a gamble to put Hanley at a position he'd never played. The fact that he couldn't play it at all is not bad luck it's bad scouting.
A small one. How many shortstops do you think there are that couldn't make the transition to the outfield? At any given time, there are 30 starting shortstops in MLB and even the least athletic of them is probably in the top 100 best all-around athletes in MLB. Do you think there are 15 of them that couldn't become outfielders? 10? 5?

The reality is that believing someone who held down a shortstop position could learn how to be an outfielder is perfectly reasonable. If you took a random shortstop and tried to convert them to an outfielder, betting on them to succeed would be a better bet than betting on them to fail.

Also, remember, he came to the Sox and volunteered to move to another position for less money than people thought he was going to get elsewhere. Also remember that David Ortiz is old and the Sox had to accept that his performance might fall off the cliff at any time.

It was a gamble to sign a guy whose numbers in general were getting worse and had put up a .563 OPS against LHP in 2014. The fact that it further dropped to .485 in 2015 is the furthest thing from bad luck that exists.
That his performance dropped isn't bad luck. That the drop was one of the few biggest in the history of free agency is.

To those of you who don't believe that John Henry should have held Ben Cherington accountable for these signings: I'll work for you anytime.
Because firing someone is the only way to hold some accountable? That's nonsense. It's bad thinking. It's bad business. Also, spoiler alert, I'm pretty sure there isn't anyone who thinks people shouldn't be held accountable for their decisions as a GM. The difference is that you're judging by the short term results which is silly.
 

snowmanny

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Totally agree with most of Ras' last paragraph. And of course he wasn't fired. He just got a new more involved boss and resigned. The last sentence, I think the verdict is in on Hanley in left, and I'm happy to be wrong long-term on Pablo.
 

MR BIG STUFF

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Unfortunately the answer to your question is no, at worst, they had the 2nd and 3rd worst first year's of a significant free agent signing.

The worst would be Adam Dunn's -2.9 WAR (fangraphs) in 2011 during the first year of a 4 year, $56 million free agent deal, so you can change the thread title now.....
He bounced back with 41 HR and an All Star berth the next season. WAR was not particularly impressive but Big Donkey was never really that kind of guy.

If they can hit around these projections and play somewhat passable D this is a good team.

Hanley:
Steamer - .284 .345 .475
Marcel - .273 .335 .463

Panda:
Steamer - .278 .330 .435
Marcel - .264 .317 .404
 

Darnell's Son

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Neither of these is the problem. People basing opinions (and therefore strategies) on outlier seasons is the problem.
Yeah, nothing is gonna fix that on this board until he plays well next season, and even then people will still want to move him.

More like the outlier hanging over Pablo's belt.
Your work re: Pablo is awesome.
 

Rasputin

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Totally agree with most of Ras' last paragraph. And of course he wasn't fired. He just got a new more involved boss and resigned. The last sentence, I think the verdict is in on Hanley in left, and I'm happy to be wrong long-term on Pablo.
Yeah, he was worse in left than Mike Greenwell and I wasn't sure that was possible. I will suggest, however, that the Sox knew first base was going to be open in 2016 when they signed him. Plus, you know, the Papi thing.
 

TheoShmeo

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Totally agree with most of Ras' last paragraph. And of course he wasn't fired. He just got a new more involved boss and resigned. The last sentence, I think the verdict is in on Hanley in left, and I'm happy to be wrong long-term on Pablo.
He might not have been fired technically but he went from being the decision maker (subject to the owner) to being an elf. He could have done the job that Mike Hazen will be doing but Ben was clearly removed from the position he had.

And if Ben was the driving force behind signing Pablo and Hanley, and extending Porcello at those numbers (less offensive but still quite questionable in my view), I'm glad he was fired/demoted or whatever you want to call it.
 

kazuneko

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He bounced back with 41 HR and an All Star berth the next season. WAR was not particularly impressive but Big Donkey was never really that kind of guy.

If they can hit around these projections and play somewhat passable D this is a good team.

Hanley:
Steamer - .284 .345 .475
Marcel - .273 .335 .463

Panda:
Steamer - .278 .330 .435
Marcel - .264 .317 .404
The bolded is the key question.
Pablo Sandoval (2015): Worst fielder at any position (per UZR/150)with a minimum of 1000 innings in the field.
Hanley Ramirez (2015): Worst fielder (per UZR/150) at any position with a minimum of 700 innings in the field.
 

snowmanny

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Yeah, he was worse in left than Mike Greenwell and I wasn't sure that was possible. I will suggest, however, that the Sox knew first base was going to be open in 2016 when they signed him. Plus, you know, the Papi thing.
I didn't think that anyone could be worse than Gomes in 2014. Or that there would be a substantially worse left-fielder named Ramirez than Manny. I haven't given up on Hanley though because he can be a great hitter. It's too bad they didn't just sign him to play third last year, but they were determined to also sign a left-handed hitter. And anyway it was going to end up being a lost season regardless of these two. I just don't want Sandoval to screw up future years; edit-I think their best hope is to figure out a way to platoon him.
 

Darnell's Son

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Seriously? We're using single season UZR to evaluate players?

From Fangraphs:
● Beware of sample sizes! If a player only spent 50 innings at a position last season, it’d be a good idea not to draw too many conclusions from their UZR score over that time. Like with any defensive statistic, you should always use three years of UZR data before trying to draw any conclusions on the true talent level of a fielder.
Look at his career track record, he's not a bad third baseman.
 
Aug 22, 2014
61
fascinating analysis.

Brings up a couple of questions, though.....

1) what were the worst 1st yr FA performances in comparison to their previous or expected play? Crawford for example averaged about 7war the previous 2yrs, so his replacement level performance was arguably a 7war underperformance, whereas hanley and panda were more 3war players coming in so even their -2war performance would "only" be 5war dissappointments.

2) what's the bounceback rate from these guys? do they mostly bounceback or mostly stay diminished? or something in between?
 
Aug 22, 2014
61
No one, no matter how good you are at analyzing baseball players, could possibly have predicted that both of them would be running for the title of worst first year of a new contract in baseball history. Why would you fire someone for not being omniscient? To me, it's just evidence that last year was a fluke.
but you could most definitely argue - and it was argued by some - that these guys had all sorts of risk attached to them....physically (injuries and fitness and decline) and mentally (both had very public and extended clubhouse issues).


The Mo Vaughn comp for Pablo, for example, was brought up more than never.

These could potentially be used as good examples of a front office limiting its risk analysis strictly to performance and age metrics, and ignoring the more intangible factors.

One of the reasons I feel so good about the Price signing is because other than the always huge health risk factor and the inevitable age decline, he's got so few other question marks in any area, tangible or intangible.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
Sandoval 3yrs: -7.2uzr/150, -4.7drs/150

with a very bad trendline.

he's pretty bad.
And I thought the eye test confirmed this last year. He still has a pretty good arm, but his lateral range looked nearly nonexistent and his range coming in not much better. I don't think I've seen worse 3B defense from a Red Sox player.

Nonetheless, I agree with those who say we should bite the bullet and live with him for one more year. There's a decent chance his offense recovers a little, if not his defense. I don't think it's very likely he'll be harder to trade next winter than he is right now, and if so, he'll at least be that much easier to DFA.
 

EpsteinsGorillaSuit

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Seriously? We're using single season UZR to evaluate players?

From Fangraphs:


Look at his career track record, he's not a bad third baseman.
Fine, but then UZR should not be used to evaluate any player's decline phase, other than to say that he was once a good/average/poor defender. One needs to identify players undergoing steep decline within one season - single-season UZR (recognizing the potential for its inaccuracy) along with the eye test would appear to be the best thing out there for now.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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Fine, but then UZR should not be used to evaluate any player's decline phase, other than to say that he was once a good/average/poor defender. One needs to identify players undergoing steep decline within one season - single-season UZR (recognizing the potential for its inaccuracy) along with the eye test would appear to be the best thing out there for now.
If you aren't properly regressing UZR in one year samples it's pretty close to worthless. And just because a better stat isn't out there, that doesn't mean we should throw our hands up and use it unadjusted anyway.
 

kazuneko

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And I thought the eye test confirmed this last year. He still has a pretty good arm, but his lateral range looked nearly nonexistent and his range coming in not much better. I don't think I've seen worse 3B defense from a Red Sox player.
Nonetheless, I agree with those who say we should bite the bullet and live with him for one more year. There's a decent chance his offense recovers a little, if not his defense. I don't think it's very likely he'll be harder to trade next winter than he is right now, and if so, he'll at least be that much easier to DFA.
The only third baseman I've ever seen that looked as bad as Panda last year was Miguel Cabrera in 2013. If Panda's bat is going to cover for an unimproved glove he would probably need to start hitting like Cabrera as well. And although I agree with you that the Sox should probably give him one last shot of improving (though by mid-season I think you need to bench him if he doesn't show any improvement ) if Panda is once again a disaster he will at that point become completely untradable -something that is not necessarily true now (currently, someone would probably take on a 1/4 of that salary at least). If the Sox don't feel he is going to improve going forward the wisest move is to dump him now.
Seriously? We're using single season UZR to evaluate players?
What Panda's UZR/150 numbers appeared to capture was a sudden, dramatic decline - something that just so happens to be exactly what scouts and fans also witnessed. Sure, true statistical accuracy might require three years of data, but it also seems plausible that bad defense that reaches certain extremes does not get entirely missed -even in a smaller sample. Hanley's comically bad UZR/150 from this past season ( -31.9) may not be as accurate to his abilities in LF as a three year sample might have generated (thankfully we'll never get to know) but I don't think it's a coincidence that one of the all-time horrific defensive performances was graded as historically bad by UZR/150. Similarly Miguel Cabrera's rangeless 2013 performance (-19.9) wasn't missed in a one year sample.
In 2015 Panda appeared to be a disaster in the field and UZR/150 ranked him as the worst in all of baseball (1000 innings or more). I suppose the exact number (-21.9) doesn't mean much in such a small sample, but I also don't think that those two facts converging was in any way a result of coincidence. Consider this: even if Panda's UZR/150 misjudged him by 5 whole points he still would have been the worst 3rd baseman in baseball and the fourth worst fielder -at any position - in the game.
 
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TomRicardo

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Pablo Sandoval is not a good baseball player. Pablo was not a good baseball player before he joined the Red Sox. He was an out of shape decent player who had some unbelievable post seasons and a ton of marketing potential. And now LL and Ben Cherington are gone. Thanks Pablo
 

grimshaw

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I want UZR/150 to capture his or Ramirez' awfulness as much as anyone, and when I see Hanley's numbers I giggle, but any stat that says Gerardo Parra went from being the best OF not named Heyward or Gordon (+26) to the worst not named Kemp or Hanley (-22.1) in a span of two years is really f-ing weird.
 

shaggydog2000

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The only third baseman I've ever seen that looked as bad as Panda last year was Miguel Cabrera in 2013. If Panda's bat is going to cover for an unimproved glove he would probably need to start hitting like Cabrera as well. And although I agree with you that the Sox should probably give him one last shot of improving (though by mid-season I think you need to bench him if he doesn't show any improvement ) if Panda is once again a disaster he will at that point become completely untradable -something that is not necessarily true now (currently, someone would probably take on a 1/4 of that salary at least). If the Sox don't feel he is going to improve going forward the wisest move is to dump him now.

What Panda's UZR/150 numbers appeared to capture was a sudden, dramatic decline - something that just so happens to be exactly what scouts and fans also witnessed. Sure, true statistical accuracy might require three years of data, but it also seems plausible that bad defense that reaches certain extremes does not get entirely missed -even in a smaller sample. Hanley's comically bad UZR/150 from this past season ( -31.9) may not be as accurate to his abilities in LF as a three year sample might have generated (thankfully we'll never get to know) but I don't think it's a coincidence that one of the all-time horrific defensive performances was graded as historically bad by UZR/150. Similarly Miguel Cabrera's rangeless 2013 performance (-19.9) wasn't missed in a one year sample.
In 2015 Panda appeared to be a disaster in the field and UZR/150 ranked him as the worst in all of baseball (1000 innings or more). I suppose the exact number (-21.9) doesn't mean much in such a small sample, but I also don't think that those two facts converging was in any way a result of coincidence. Consider this: even if Panda UZR/150 misjudged him by 5 whole points he still would have been the worst 3rd baseman in baseball and the fourth worst fielder -at any position - in the game.
I agree that single season UZR data should not be treated as definitive. It just needs too many samples to stabilize. But it can be an indicator that the data needs to be looked into more. If you have 3 different well respected fielding metrics, and they disagree about a player, using just one to say he stinks is not reasonable. And if a player was great 3 out of 4 years by a metric, and terrible in the other, maybe that was just a bad sampling of data instead of an actual performance change. But when all the data you can get agree, and the scouts agree, and the fans agree, UZR is probably onto something. And that was the perfectly crap storm Panda was in the middle of. All the defensive metrics (DRS, rPM,UZR) say he was the worst. Fans pretty much agree he looked terrible, and any comments I've seen from baseball people said he wasn't good, although maybe better in stretches than some more worse periods.

But on the other hand, his overall numbers have fluctuated on either side of average over his career, with one huge plus outlier, and this one huge negative outlier. He didn't continue to be excellent after all the defensive metrics agree he was during 2011, and I doubt he'll continue to be excrement after this season. I think it would be within expectations to project him to be somewhat below average at 3B, as he has been pretty much his whole career.
 

twibnotes

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It's their job to be Nostra-fucking-damus? There's only so much even the best projections can predict. As far as Sandoval goes, there were at least two other teams in on him at similar years and dollars, so it's not like Cherington was out on an island thinking he was going to be worth paying that contract. The team that had the guy in their organization for 11 years was willing to give him a similar contract and who would know him better than them?
I don't get this post at all. If a poster can't question two historically bad signings (in one year!), just shut the site down.

There were plenty of reasons to question how Panda would age and whether Hanley could play LF effectively. It's not like two near sure things just shockingly fell off a cliff.
 

benhogan

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Keikered,
Lay off the ROBOT! SSS

How was the Professor at MIT, that put the Robot in goal, to know he couldn't make saves to his right?....Next thing you'll say is that you are smarter and have more insight into robotics then a professor at MIT!

Good thing he has tenure or else you guys would run him out of town too.
 

crystalline

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If you aren't properly regressing UZR in one year samples it's pretty close to worthless. And just because a better stat isn't out there, that doesn't mean we should throw our hands up and use it unadjusted anyway.

Can I recommend dropping the ideas of "regressing UZR to the mean" and "stabilizing over X time period"?


The proper way to look at UZR's value statistically is via measures of variance. One such measure is the confidence interval.

Here's a 2003 post from mgl (before he went inside a front office) in which he ballpark-estimates a UZR interval for one year of data.

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/primate_studies/discussion/lichtman_2003-03-21_0/

He gets +- 15 runs as a 95% CI. That means we should be 95% sure that Panda's true UZR is between -36 and -6.

That's bad however you slice it. Therefore one year of UZR data usefully tells us that Sandoval is a bad defender.



(Kazuneko is exactly right when s/he says the size of the UZR deviation needs to be accounted for)
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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The problem with this is -6 to -36 is an enormous range and stepping back to just say "bad" is ignoring the huge amount of variance within that range. -6 UZR is a little below average. -36 is historically bad. I don't see how this is at all useful. I agree that an accurate confidence interval would be better than regression, but regression is far easier and if people aren't even willing to do that much, they certainly won't do the work to find an accurate confidence interval that will tell us anything useful. Panda's UZR this year was -16.9. What would the confidence interval on that number being accurate be? 33%? 50%? Is that useful? How about a smaller range like -10 to -20? -17.9 to -15.9?

I'm suggesting people walk up a hill to try an minimize the variance inherent in one year samples of defensive metrics like UZR. You're suggesting we climb a mountain. I'd love it if that were even remotely likely, but it's not. As is, people are throwing around single season samples, unadjusted, and making declarative statements about talent levels, which is exactly what MGL and Tango have said not to do when using UZR.

No one is going to argue that Panda had a good year in the field. He didn't. But he struggled with some injuries and clearly took some time to settle in as a defender in Fenway. If we regress by 50% like MGL has suggested when using a one year sample, his UZR drops to -8.45. Combine his last three years unadjusted and we get -18.1, or -6.03 per year. A bit below average but not the dire straits, complete sunk cost, woe is us scenario that is being suggested. There's still a pretty good chance Panda is a benign enough defender to have some positive value next season. Will he be worth his contract? Probably not. I don't think that's going to be shocking to many people, though.
 

shaggydog2000

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Can I recommend dropping the ideas of "regressing UZR to the mean" and "stabilizing over X time period"?


The proper way to look at UZR's value statistically is via measures of variance. One such measure is the confidence interval.

Here's a 2003 post from mgl (before he went inside a front office) in which he ballpark-estimates a UZR interval for one year of data.

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/primate_studies/discussion/lichtman_2003-03-21_0/

He gets +- 15 runs as a 95% CI. That means we should be 95% sure that Panda's true UZR is between -36 and -6.

That's bad however you slice it. Therefore one year of UZR data usefully tells us that Sandoval is a bad defender.



(Kazuneko is exactly right when s/he says the size of the UZR deviation needs to be accounted for)
Well, you also need to realize that the average confidence interval is based off of the average data distribution. An individual player, especially one in an outlier season like Sandovals, may have a remarkably different distribution. So you can't simply apply the average CI, you'd have to look at his data and generate an individual CI. I know we don't really have the data to do that, and you're providing the best data you can find, but it's not valid either, although I like where you're going with this. His true UZR could be within a much smaller window (because he reliably sucked), or a much wider one (because he was all over the place in his degree of sucking).

I think in general the way stats are shown now give a false sense of certainty when it comes to performance. Whenever I do statistical analysis, the variance, confidence interval, or some form of error is shown along with it. Including that on player stats would give fans a much better understanding that a few points difference between batting average between two players in a year is meaningless, but a 20 point difference in on base percentage over a career is significant, or something along those lines. Currently without that error accounted for, even someone who is statistically savvy just can't know what level of difference is significant or not over a given time period.
 

crystalline

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Snod: yes there is variance within the range, but that is the nature of statistics that describe reality. If you want to use statistics you have to grapple with variability - either directly via CIs/standard errors, or indirectly via this regressing/averaging procedure.

Shaggydog: Right. Stats mean nothing without an accompanying measure of variability. (Even weather predictions give us a high and a low, which gives a range capturing variability of the temperature estimate). I'd quibble with your distinction between individual/average distributions- there is in some sense no such thing as an "individual distribution" - just individual samples from the underlying distribution.
And if one actually paired baseball stats like UZR with a measure of variability, people would be learning concepts that are useful in other fields. The "regression to the mean" ideas used by baseball stats are not only limited, they are ad hoc and used only- as far as I know- to describe baseball stats.




Moving on from statistics-- Panda was terrible last year, as our eyes confirmed. I hope Hanley's performance was affected by injury, but I fear Sandoval is headed downhill. Best case is that he loses weight this winter, has a hot start, and gets traded for value.

Cherington got a second chance after he was bailed out of the Crawford deal by LA. Hanley and Sandoval were his second high profile FA mistake, and I'm not surprised he and Lucchino got canned. I hope Theo hurries up to write that promised book. I really want to know who decided what in cases like these free agent signings.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Moving on from statistics-- Panda was terrible last year, as our eyes confirmed. I hope Hanley's performance was affected by injury, but I fear Sandoval is headed downhill. Best case is that he loses weight this winter, has a hot start, and gets traded for value.
Why hope Hanley's performance was affected by injury but not Sandoval? Sandoval was dinged up most of the year, and not all of those dings can be explained away by "well, he's fat".

Cherington got a second chance after he was bailed out of the Crawford deal by LA. Hanley and Sandoval were his second high profile FA mistake, and I'm not surprised he and Lucchino got canned. I hope Theo hurries up to write that promised book. I really want to know who decided what in cases like these free agent signings.
What was his first? While he was part of the front office at the time, Crawford was on Theo's watch.
 

shaggydog2000

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Snod: yes there is variance within the range, but that is the nature of statistics that describe reality. If you want to use statistics you have to grapple with variability - either directly via CIs/standard errors, or indirectly via this regressing/averaging procedure.

Shaggydog: Right. Stats mean nothing without an accompanying measure of variability. (Even weather predictions give us a high and a low, which gives a range capturing variability of the temperature estimate). I'd quibble with your distinction between individual/average distributions- there is in some sense no such thing as an "individual distribution" - just individual samples from the underlying distribution.
And if one actually paired baseball stats like UZR with a measure of variability, people would be learning concepts that are useful in other fields. The "regression to the mean" ideas used by baseball stats are not only limited, they are ad hoc and used only- as far as I know- to describe baseball stats.
.
The overall distribution the confidence interval would come from would be Sandoval's performance, and not the performance of all ball players. His UZR is not a measurement of all player's performance, just his own. And his actual performance is just a sampling from the total distribution, but it is the total distribution of his possible performance. Just like you wouldn't mix the results of many different sided dice into one distribution, you shouldn't do that for multiple players, there may be considerably differences between them. I can't prove it given the numbers I have, but because of the uncertainty that all players have equivalent variance in performance, you can't equate them and smoosh all the variances into one number. But again, I appreciate your direction of thought.

And also, I am sure he sucked in the field last year, it's just the degree of it and the predictive value of it that am unsure of. Too much uncertainty.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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Snod: yes there is variance within the range, but that is the nature of statistics that describe reality. If you want to use statistics you have to grapple with variability - either directly via CIs/standard errors, or indirectly via this regressing/averaging procedure.
You're agreeing with me in general while disagreeing on the particulars. We both would like to see people adjust stats like UZR to account for the inherent instability in sample sizes of 1 season.

That we can be 95% confident that his actual talent level exists somewhere within a 3 win range tells us nothing, though. We need to find out how confident we can be in a much smaller range to make any real judgements about his current talent level. And if that confidence interval is low, we need to accept that the stat we are using to try and get at that answer doesn't actually do a good job of providing it.
 
Aug 22, 2014
61
I like talking about confidence intervals. I especially wish the projection systems included them somehow. The projection systems loved our team last year but I have a hunch that given the makeup of the team - lots of very old or very young guys, lots of bounce-back guys, and the 3 major new guys all with very inconsistent track records - that the confidence intervals on those projections were worse than average.
 

geoduck no quahog

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I for one am not ready to give up on Sandoval's fielding. I'd like to hear/read more about his abilities from people who actually watched him before 2015.

I assume most have read this "eyeball" article from 2014: "Sandoval is Giants Most Valuable Defender"

If the San Francisco Giants do emerge as the top team in the NL West this season, Pablo Sandoval's defense at third base may be a difference-maker.

Some may find that odd, but if you disregard his girth, study the numbers and watch a little film, it makes sense...

Sandoval ranks third among third basemen with 10 defensive runs saved this season, trailing only Josh Donaldson and Nolan Arenado. His 10 runs saved are the most on the team.

This is not the first time that Sandoval has excelled in that category.

In 2011, he ranked second among third basemen in the majors and first in the NL with 15 defensive runs saved. But his total slipped to minus-5 defensive runs saved in each of the past two seasons, with added pounds perhaps playing a role...

...Sandoval is getting to the balls that others aren’t.
Film review

Baseball Info Solutions does video review of every play of every game, categorizing plays into 30 groups of good fielding plays (GFPs) and about 60 categories of defensive misplays & errors, providing the data to teams and media.

Good fielding plays for third basemen include things such as an outstanding diving stop that merits a Web Gem, starting a double play quickly, or cutting off a ball hit down the line to yield only a single instead of a double.

Sandoval currently has 46 good fielding plays and 15 misplays and errors.

His good play/misplay ratio of better than 3 to 1 is the best among third basemen...

Watch a little bit of the Sandoval highlight reel and the thing that jumps out is his reflexes...

"His hand-eye coordination is off the charts," said "Baseball Tonight" analyst Alex Cora. "You can see that in how he hits balls over his head and balls in the dirt. His best tool on defense is that hand-eye coordination, because there's not a lot of time to read the angles of the ball coming off the bat at third base."

Sandoval leads players at all positions with 28 good fielding plays awarded for ground-ball outs on diving stops and charges on slow rollers. He’s also cut back on throw-related misplays and errors from 13 last season to only four so far in 2014...
...Wotus noted that one advantage Sandoval has is that he knows the tendencies of his pitchers, since the likes of Tim Lincecum, Matt Cain, Madison Bumgarner and Ryan Vogelsong have been with the team for a while...

...the new guys have also learned that Sandoval performs better than he looks.

"I've been very impressed with him," Giants starter Tim Hudson told Jerry Crasnick earlier this week. "Because he's a bigger guy, you don't think he's very athletic by looking at him. But he's pretty agile. He'll get to balls in the hole and some balls down the line. He runs in on the ball pretty well, too. I've been pleasantly surprised with his range and how nimble he is at third."

He probably isn't the only one.
I understand that he may be on a death spiral, but I won't be convinced of that until I see him play a couple of months in 2016. There's as much of a chance that 2015 was a terrible year and a bounce back is possible.
 

EricFeczko

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The overall distribution the confidence interval would come from would be Sandoval's performance, and not the performance of all ball players. His UZR is not a measurement of all player's performance, just his own. And his actual performance is just a sampling from the total distribution, but it is the total distribution of his possible performance. Just like you wouldn't mix the results of many different sided dice into one distribution, you shouldn't do that for multiple players, there may be considerably differences between them. I can't prove it given the numbers I have, but because of the uncertainty that all players have equivalent variance in performance, you can't equate them and smoosh all the variances into one number. But again, I appreciate your direction of thought.

And also, I am sure he sucked in the field last year, it's just the degree of it and the predictive value of it that am unsure of. Too much uncertainty.
I don't think anyone can prove it with the numbers we have and given the metrics of interest (UZR/DRS). Statistically, we may be underpowered to derive such an estimate of performance, which means we can't trust the metric.

One could, theoretically, estimate confidence intervals for the individual player using bootstrapping techniques, which should produce a normal distribution if the input data has enough samples. However, once you do so you start to run into a severe error that you have alluded to in your post: the input data may not have sufficient samples. Practically speaking, measures like UZR and DRS (as noted by many, including an article on SOSH baseball, though I'm having trouble finding the link right now) depends on the contributions of every other player, and is really attempting to predict the likelihood a player would save runs relative to the average player at the same position. When determining how to bootstrap a dataset, determining the amount of data to select when resampling becomes critical; should you resample over 500 innings, 1000 innings, the entire dataset, etc? One way to identify such a threshold is to examine the distribution of bootstraps across a range of resampling values and individual players, and measure the bias between the bootstrapped central tendency (e.g. the mean across all bootstraps) and the observed value per player (e.g. mean bias and variance). Once you start to do this, you realize that any individual player may require as much as 10 years of data to estimate the intervals without introducing any bias to the estimate of central tendency. In other words, even theoretically, one may not know the "true" UZR until, generally speaking, after the player is past his prime.

That paragraph was dumb, so I deleted it.

At this point (at least in my thinking), I've come to think that UZR/DRS shouldn't really be used at all to think about defense. Outside of statcast, the eye and crowd-sourcing are probably more valid estimates of defense.
Of course, Hanley/Panda were still bad defenders last year, but that's because you'd have to be blind to argue otherwise. I'm not sure any of us have a quantitative idea of how Hanley will handle 1B or whether Panda will improve. I don't even think it makes sense to use UZR/DRS to measure defense at all at 1B: by far the most important ability of a good 1B is to catch poorly thrown balls quickly, the second most important ability is to field grounders well. Throwing and range can be important, but I suspect that those opportunities tend to be much rarer.

Personally, I care more about the hitting. Hanley had his worse offensive season ever (.717 OPS), after hitting 800+ OPS in literally every other season, except in 2011/2012. Pablo hasn't even turned 30 yet. He had a .658 OPS, but over the last three seasons prior, he was roughly a ~.750 OPS hitter. If Panda (.765 OPS/104 wRC+) and Hanley (.820 OPS/120 wRC+) hit according to their steamer projections, I'll be happy.

EDIT: I'm going to preempt a response here. One could argue that you could assume the underlying individual player distribution. One way to consider it is that a player either makes a play, or fails to make a play per attempt. Therefore, you could assume that the underlying distribution of attempts represents a binomial distribution and calculate the variance based on that assumption. This is what Crystalline is referring to when he mentions the variance being +/- 15 runs. One problem is that this number comes from a single player, and not all players have the same number of opportunities (and therefore same variance, as mentioned by shaggydog). Furthermore, UZR makes lots of adjustments, which transform the data dramatically (see: tangotiger's response #9 in the BBTF link upthread). I'm not sure anyone knows what the underlying distribution should look like. Therefore, bootstrapping is an effective alternative for estimating the variance of the underlying individual player population.
 
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Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
I for one am not ready to give up on Sandoval's fielding. I'd like to hear/read more about his abilities from people who actually watched him before 2015.

I assume most have read this "eyeball" article from 2014: "Sandoval is Giants Most Valuable Defender"

I understand that he may be on a death spiral, but I won't be convinced of that until I see him play a couple of months in 2016. There's as much of a chance that 2015 was a terrible year and a bounce back is possible.
Interestingly, the article you linked to, dated July 23, says he had a DRS of 10 at that point. He finished the year with just 4 according to FG. So for the last third of the season, by that metric, he was a -6 defender, or -18 per year. SSS disclaimer, etc....I realize these partial-season numbers are shaky things to lean on. But one possible explanation is that he made a special effort to get in shape and prepare for the season because it was a contract year, and that paid off early on, but eventually he wore down, first on defense, and eventually on offense as well (September wRC+ of 63). In this regard it's worth noting that 2014 was the most games he had played since 2010.
 

nvalvo

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But one possible explanation is that he made a special effort to get in shape and prepare for the season because it was a contract year, and that paid off early on, but eventually he wore down, first on defense, and eventually on offense as well (September wRC+ of 63). In this regard it's worth noting that 2014 was the most games he had played since 2010.
Wore down so much that he put up a .935 OPS in the postseason that year. He's streaky.

And this is why I'm optimistic about him — okay, maybe optimistic is too strong; this is why I'm not despondent about him. We could cut up his gamelogs, EV style, but the point is that he's usually more hot than not, but for whatever reason — new team, new city, a bunch of minor injuries, weight — that wasn't the case last year.
 

Al Zarilla

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Wore down so much that he put up a .935 OPS in the postseason that year. He's streaky.

And this is why I'm optimistic about him — okay, maybe optimistic is too strong; this is why I'm not despondent about him. We could cut up his gamelogs, EV style, but the point is that he's usually more hot than not, but for whatever reason — new team, new city, a bunch of minor injuries, weight — that wasn't the case last year.
So he comes into camp in February in better shape, can field again, and OPs's .770 or the like in 2016. Then what? He could balloon back up, again, after the 2016 season, like he did with the Giants more than once. I'm done with the guy; wish they could get him out of town. Anybody that gets a $95 million guaranteed contract and then lets himself go in the first year is basically spitting in the face of the his team's ownership. OK, one thing, if the really bad HBP he sustained in May screwed him up to the point where he couldn't work out and stay in reasonable shape, for him, then I guess I'd give him one more chance. But, I'd still call him a really high risk guy.
 
Aug 22, 2014
61
one thing we can't forget is that Panda is really a strict platoon player at this point. 21wrc+ vLHP last year, 43wrc+ last 2yrs, 61wrc+ last 3yrs. Any hope for a bounceback has to take that into account.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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So he comes into camp in February in better shape, can field again, and OPs's .770 or the like in 2016. Then what? He could balloon back up, again, after the 2016 season, like he did with the Giants more than once. I'm done with the guy; wish they could get him out of town. Anybody that gets a $95 million guaranteed contract and then lets himself go in the first year is basically spitting in the face of the his team's ownership. OK, one thing, if the really bad HBP he sustained in May screwed him up to the point where he couldn't work out and stay in reasonable shape, for him, then I guess I'd give him one more chance. But, I'd still call him a really high risk guy.
I have to think this is where the team and those of us saying he stays and plays are. Through the game he was hit by the pitch, he slashed .270/.342/.416/.758 with a wRC+ of 107. After that, it was .234/.270/.345/.615 with a wRC+ of 61. Really a tale of two hitters. While he was abysmal hitting right-handed prior to the HBP, he really wasn't a bust to that point. (not unlike Hanley pre and post-shoulder injury)

Even defensively, Sandoval didn't really get bad until after he was hurt. Granted, errors aren't the best measure but it's all I can find gamelogs for. Up until the HBP, he'd committed three errors in 37 games. In the month immediately following (25 games), he committed 7 errors. He committed a total of 19 for the season.

Something else that I haven't seen brought up yet is the Inside Edge numbers. They break up each batted ball into categories measuring how likely it is that a play will be successfully made. The most notable change for Sandoval was in the 40-60% category ("even") and the 60-90% category ("likely").

Likely (60-90% get made)
2013 = 83.4%
2014 = 89.4%
2015 = 68.8%

Even (40-60% get made)
2013 = 60.9%
2014 = 71.4%
2015 = 52.6%

Those drop-offs seem out of the ordinary. Perhaps explained by injuries to his legs limiting his range. Simply being in better health (and maybe carrying a few less pounds) will probably result in those numbers rising again.
 

Yelling At Clouds

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I have to think this is where the team and those of us saying he stays and plays are. Through the game he was hit by the pitch, he slashed .270/.342/.416/.758 with a wRC+ of 107. After that, it was .234/.270/.345/.615 with a wRC+ of 61. Really a tale of two hitters. While he was abysmal hitting right-handed prior to the HBP, he really wasn't a bust to that point. (not unlike Hanley pre and post-shoulder injury)
The thing, though, is that he hit better in June (.298/.310/.464) than in July (.241/.283/.310), August (.205/.263/.386), and September (.205/.234/.227, though only 11 games). Maybe it was the kind of thing that continued to deteriorate as the season went on, but I would think that he would have hit worse immediately after suffering the injury (the HBP was in mid May if I'm not mistaken).
 

kazuneko

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Todd Frazier would be a nice option at 3b if Panda continues to suck. The problem is, Frazier will cost so much to acquire. Let's say the Red Sox offered the Reds Margot, Guerra, and Allen for Frazier; I wonder how close they would have been to meeting the Reds asking price. Of course, that would mean the Red Sox wouldn't have Kimbrel, one of the best closers in the game. But one could argue that this would have been a more prudent direction for the organization.
Hopefully, Panda has a big bounce back year making the Todd Frazier talk irrelevant going forward.
Sadly, he didn't actually cost that much to acquire (for the White Sox). Judging by what the Reds actually received a far lesser package than what the Sox gave up for Kimbrel could have potentially landed them Frazier.
 

nvalvo

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So he comes into camp in February in better shape, can field again, and OPs's .770 or the like in 2016. Then what? He could balloon back up, again, after the 2016 season, like he did with the Giants more than once. I'm done with the guy; wish they could get him out of town. Anybody that gets a $95 million guaranteed contract and then lets himself go in the first year is basically spitting in the face of the his team's ownership. OK, one thing, if the really bad HBP he sustained in May screwed him up to the point where he couldn't work out and stay in reasonable shape, for him, then I guess I'd give him one more chance. But, I'd still call him a really high risk guy.
I know you hate Panda like a lover spurned, but this is over the top. The KNBR theory that his performance tracks with his weight never made all that much sense to me. Without having a history of his scale readings, I'm just not sure his weight maxima and performance minima correspond all that closely.

Wasn't he relatively trim early in '14? When he struggled? And didn't he get both better and heavier as the season progressed?

I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem that simple to me.

Edit: to be clear, I'm sure it helps him play well to be less fat. But it's not the monocausal explanation some make it out to be.
 
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Al Zarilla

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I know you hate Panda like a lover spurned, but this is over the top. The KNBR theory that his performance tracks with his weight never made all that much sense to me. Without having a history of his scale readings, I'm just not sure his weight maxima and performance minima correspond all that closely.

Wasn't he relatively trim early in '14? When he struggled? And didn't he get both better and heavier as the season progressed?

I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem that simple to me.

Edit: to be clear, I'm sure it helps him play well to be less fat. But it's not the monocausal explanation some make it out to be.
His fielding is drastically affected when he gets 30 - 40 pounds over his regular portly shape. He can't move left or right quickly enough. More basically he can't get down on worm burners because the gut's in the way. His hitting is probably most affected by his not getting down as well on low or outside pitches that he's famous for hitting. But, his fielding suffers the most.

I used to like the guy, as recently as 2014, when he did get in shape (for him) and stay in shape all season. Again, I just can't believe he lets himself go like he does when he's had millions handed to him for playing a kid's game. If he played in the NFL, he'd be cut and he'd be back in Venezuela doing whatever.