I'm a Knicks fan. I think my standard for clown show organization is a little bit different.
Kyrie Irving traded to Celtics for IT, Crowder, Zizic, BKN 1st, 2020 2nd
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Again, the injury is an arthritic hip. That's known from the publicly available information and would have been right there in the medicals that Boston sent to them at the time of the deal.
Are contingent picks allowed in the NBA? Like, could they say "Cavs get the Clippers pick, unless IT plays X games or X minutes," in which case it doesn't convey?
This deal has to go through. One of my sports books already paid out on my wager and I spent the money :O
I agree with those who are calling shenanigans on the Cavs here. There's no way Danny makes this trade while knowing there's a good chance that it blows up. And while he usually gets the better end of the deal, I've seen na indications that he is considered anything but a fair and honest trading partner around the league.
It's arguably a good trade for the Cavs without IT...just not one Lebron would be interested in. Tell them to take it or leave it. Throw in a worthless second rounder at most.
I agree with those who are calling shenanigans on the Cavs here. There's no way Danny makes this trade while knowing there's a good chance that it blows up. And while he usually gets the better end of the deal, I've seen na indications that he is considered anything but a fair and honest trading partner around the league.
It's arguably a good trade for the Cavs without IT...just not one Lebron would be interested in. Tell them to take it or leave it. Throw in a worthless second rounder at most.
Sadly the Knicks ownership is probably better than the Cavs. And that's not an endorsement of Junior Dolan.I'm a Knicks fan. I think my standard for clown show organization is a little bit different.
The term "arthritic hip" is 1. not really accurate, he has a partial labrum tear arthritic hip was some people on here simplifying it to make it easier for a layman to understand.
2. more importantly that term means essentially nothing in the scale of a basketball injury. How much damage is there, how much has it healed in the last month, how does it look structurally, what does the inflammation level look like, what is the range of motion, what causes him pain, what doesn't? Those are just some of the dozens of questions a team wants to answer, and some of those aren't going to be discernable from a medical record without getting the guy in.
This is like saying that "shoulder soreness" or "forearm tightness" is all you need to know about a pitcher injury... that can be anything from soreness that goes away in a week to needing major surgery.
Doncic is a ball handler who runs the point and he is a guard. And, it's not like there has never been a 6'9" pg before.
Smart is more than good enough to start for a contending team that runs its half court offense through other positions. Contending teams don't field elite players at every position. Hayward can run an offense, as can Horford, at times. Smart is obviously a downgrade for Irving or IT unless his rumored shooting makeover works, but he's an adequate backup plan for a team that would be built around the concept of having a lot of athletic positionless wings. Also, the Celtics of the next few years are not really a contending team, even with Irving. GSW will still be miles better than them unless Davis suddenly becomes available for a Tatum, Brown, Morris, Lakers pick package.
Mostly this -- the idea that internet doctors had some sort of workable diagnosis is silly. We certainly don't know and my guess is IT doesn't know, either.
As well...see this:
http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/celtics-top-ten-assets.18053/
If IT's medical condition is/was so obvious to SoSH, then why was IT ranked so high (edit: after his injury, toward the end of that thread) in re Celtics' assets? Until he was traded, that is...at which point....something changed, and it wasn't perfect knowledge of his medical prognosis as that likely doesn't exist and certainly doesn't exist among us.
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How many rings did Derek Fisher win? How about Mario Chalmers? 2008-vintage Rajon Rondo wasn't much either (and didn't even have a good postseason).
Obviously, you'd rather have an elite PG, but recent history suggests you can get by with someone who wouldn't be a starter for a lot of teams.
That works if you have Pierce/KG/Allen, Kobe and Shaq, or LeBron/Wade/Bosh. Celtics wouldn't exactly have that kind of star power to surround either of them.
I wonder what Plan B is if it falls through. Both picks, Jaylen, Crowder and Thomas for Anthony Davis?
It would be the ultimate Cavs front office fubar if the Celtics came out of the rescinded trade with a better player
Give them a second rounder and point out that IT was drafted in that round so you can just replace him.
Without revisions to the original trade agreement, the Cavaliers could threaten to veto the trade, league sources said.
The Cavaliers' stance could trigger a standoff between Cleveland and Boston officials, forcing both organizations to weigh the consequences of letting blockbuster trade implode.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20467655/cleveland-cavaliers-plan-seek-additional-compensation-boston-celtics
The Cavaliers' stance could trigger a standoff between Cleveland and Boston officials, forcing both organizations to weigh the consequences of letting blockbuster trade implode.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20467655/cleveland-cavaliers-plan-seek-additional-compensation-boston-celtics
Its not happening. We gotta let it go. AD is not getting traded this year no matter what.
This may get ugly.
Whether Cleveland is playing games or not depends on how close what was represented to them during negotiation is to their assessment now. Given their owner's terrible rep and Altman's lack of one they have an uphill battle to make the case convincingly, but certainly possible they can.
Won't be surprised if league gets involved with an independent medical assessment.
Whether Cleveland is playing games or not depends on how close what was represented to them during negotiation is to their assessment now. Given their owner's terrible rep and Altman's lack of one they have an uphill battle to make the case convincingly, but certainly possible they can.
Won't be surprised if league gets involved with an independent medical assessment.
Yup. The ultimate plan should be what I thought it was before Kyrie- to best leverage existing assets in order to get an elite (as in top 5, maybe top 10) two-way player.
The Fultz trade led me to believe that Ainge wouldn't go all-in on a one-way guard, no matter what his offensive skill set was, so I figured IT was on borrowed time, and the 2018 draft was where he'd look for his two-way superstar, unless an unforeseen opportunity arose. But after paying sticker price for Kyrie, I'm not really sure. My guess is that he wants an Alpha to run the show and figured Fultz isn't that guy, IT's too short and gimpy, and 2018 is too big-heavy.
Yes, just read the comments section on Woj's tweet.... or don't, actually. They're assuming Tatum is packing his bags. No f'ing way.
I really hope Danny doesn't give up anything consequential, not that he'd ever add Tatum, but I'm afraid he's going to cave more than he should.
Because Smart is an RFA the Celtics may actually want to keep?
Thinking Boston has to offer another significant asset is wild.
Boston lost a full year of Jeff Greens' services, albeit as an RFA, OKC got punished for not sharing full medical records with Boston in that trade, and had to give Boston one second round pick.
If Cleveland demands anything other than a very marginal asset, if I'm Ainge I just say go ahead and veto the deal. Unless Ainge and the Celtics straight lied about ITs injury, Cleveland looks ridiculous.
Celtics will not be paying Smart 20 million or whatever to come off the bench in 2021. He's gone.
This is far from a given. They really like him and I highly doubt Smart gets anywhere near 20M.
I think the rumor that Cleveland wanted one of Nets pick, Lakers/Kings pick, or Tatum and Celts gave them Nets pick feels like one resolution path--though I probably wouldn't swap the asset, personally.
Ainge needs to fight hard to keep deal as-is just to protect his own rep here. He might, at the finish line, add an asset but I think it's bad precedent (and may say somethign about the disclosure of the injury) if he adds anything quickly.
In terms of leverage, it's interesting---Cleveland likely ends up worse off if this falls through in terms of what else happens with the assets; that said, I think Celts really want Irving, and so that's the leverage for Cleveland.
I don't think swapping Smart for IT makes any sense for Celts--Smart is their top remaining defender and you can't really play Irving and IT together.
Ainge needs to fight hard to keep deal as-is just to protect his own rep here. He might, at the finish line, add an asset but I think it's bad precedent (and may say somethign about the disclosure of the injury) if he adds anything quickly.
In terms of leverage, it's interesting---Cleveland likely ends up worse off if this falls through in terms of what else happens with the assets; that said, I think Celts really want Irving, and so that's the leverage for Cleveland.
I don't think swapping Smart for IT makes any sense for Celts--Smart is their top remaining defender and you can't really play Irving and IT together.
This is where I'm at. I could see a late 20s pick or 2nd rounder being included but nothing else.
A lot of stupid money gets thrown around in the NBA and free agent contracts are exploding. I bet he gets 3/58 or 4/75, provided he plays well enough this year. Somewhere like Cleveland after LeBron jets.
I'm sure they'd love Tatum and the LA pick too.
I'd love a Ferrari.
This whole thing is crazy.
Throw in a 2020 C's first rounder or tell them to pound sand. But I'm sure it won't come to that. I would HATE for Ainge to feel the need to add too much more here to get this done.
If the Celtics add Tatum to this.....this suddenly becomes an absolute disastrous trade for Boston. Ainge CANNOT do this.
IF Ainge truly did disclose the state of the injury and sent records confirming it (and I don't know that is the case) I think the right move is to go on the offense here---file a (private) complaint with the commissioner about the situation and ask for immediate investigation and fines for Cleveland for acting in bad faith and leaking this story. IF Celts fully disclosed, they need to raise cost of Cleveland of taking what they likely feel is a 'free shot' at more assets.
Of course, the more ambiguous (or overly optimistic) the Celts disclosure was the more they may need assess actually offering more...
Of course, the more ambiguous (or overly optimistic) the Celts disclosure was the more they may need assess actually offering more...
Well at a certain point the teams need to be able to consider other offers, so I'm guessing not too long.
I was looking at some of the trades called off due to failed physicals. Here's one I forgot: in December 2003 the Indians traded Omar Vizquel to the Mariners for Carlos Guillen but the 36 year-old Vizquel failed the physical. Vizquel played 148 games for Cleveland in 2004 with an OPS+ of 99, eight more years after that, and won two more gold gloves before retiring.
Edit: Also Radja to 76'ers. He went to back to Europe and played for years.
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