Kyrie Irving: Hardwood Magician

lexrageorge

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Is there any precedent for that? Genuinely curious--it seems weird for a player going to a new team to go out of his way to help a rival in the same division.
While not in the same division, and also under the old CBA.... The Cavs did arrange a sign-and-trade with the Heat when LeBron left. One of those draft picks became Jae Crowder, while another one, along with the trade exception, was part of the package used to acquire Kevin Love. IIRC, the Heat had the space to sign LeBron outright.
 

mcpickl

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question for the cap junkies out there (mcpickl, nighthob, etc)

If Kyrie decides prior to July 1 that he wants to be a NY Knick is there any way we can extract some value for him? IE could we do some sort of 3-way S&T deal with NYK and Charlotte where we end up with Kemba and the cost is Kyrie & a pick &/or young player?

OR if Kyrie leaves the Celtics are left with nothing but a little cap space?
Extremely unlikely. NY has the cap space to sign Kyrie outright to the same contract he'd get in a sign and trade.

Kyrie leaving probably wouldn't even leave Boston with a little cap space.

Unless Horford also opts out, they'd probably keep Rozier and leave themselves still over the cap.
 

benhogan

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Extremely unlikely. NY has the cap space to sign Kyrie outright to the same contract he'd get in a sign and trade.

Kyrie leaving probably wouldn't even leave Boston with a little cap space.

Unless Horford also opts out, they'd probably keep Rozier and leave themselves still over the cap.
So to take this one step further. If Kyrie opts to sign with the Knicks (BTW I think Kyrie will re-sign with the C's, just kicking around contingency scenario)
The Celtics "Plan B" will be:
1. re-sign Rozier to play PG
2. expect better health/play from Hayward in 2019-20
3. extend Al at a lower rate
4. AD is off the table, stick with Tatum
5. Use draft picks to improve

I just wouldn't be that excited about a Rozier/Smart backcourt, I'd much rather have a Smart/Brown from a def/off standpoint. What options for 2019-20 does Danny have if Kyrie goes elsewhere?

Is Plan B worthy of discussion while we wait for Thursday night?
 

tbrown_01923

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Do we think that Rozier is a different player while under a longer term contract or starting. I don't love the version I of Terry I have been seeing this year - if that was the expectation of him going forward I would want a different plan B.

What about Patrick Beverly or similar player - someone as a defense first type?
 

mcpickl

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So to take this one step further. If Kyrie opts to sign with the Knicks (BTW I think Kyrie will re-sign with the C's, just kicking around contingency scenario)
The Celtics "Plan B" will be:
1. re-sign Rozier to play PG
2. expect better health/play from Hayward in 2019-20
3. extend Al at a lower rate
4. AD is off the table, stick with Tatum
5. Use draft picks to improve

I just wouldn't be that excited about a Rozier/Smart backcourt, I'd much rather have a Smart/Brown from a def/off standpoint. What options for 2019-20 does Danny have if Kyrie goes elsewhere?

Is Plan B worthy of discussion while we wait for Thursday night?
Probably not since Plan A of keeping Kyrie gets you much closer to a championship than his walking away for nothing.

Especially since your number 2 and 3 bullet points remain the same either way.

I think there could, and has, been a discussion whether trading for AD makes sense. Don't see much of an argument outside of fear of health for being OK with Kyrie walking away. Think the health risk is s just a risk you have to take.
 

tbrown_01923

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Probably not since Plan A of keeping Kyrie gets you much closer to a championship than his walking away for nothing.

Especially since your number 2 and 3 bullet points remain the same either way.

I think there could, and has, been a discussion whether trading for AD makes sense. Don't see much of an argument outside of fear of health for being OK with Kyrie walking away. Think the health risk is s just a risk you have to take.
I don't think the question is being Okay with kyrie walking away. Obviously keeping him adds the most value to the franchise through assets and wins. But what if he signs somewhere else - what then? Retool and compete - if so how? Move on from folks (e.g,. Al, Heyward) and reset around the brown/tatum timeline? Is there a better point guard than Terry that allows the team to stay competitive...
 

mcpickl

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I don't think the question is being Okay with kyrie walking away. Obviously keeping him adds the most value to the franchise through assets and wins. But what if he signs somewhere else - what then? Retool and compete - if so how? Move on from folks (e.g,. Al, Heyward) and reset around the brown/tatum timeline? Is there a better point guard than Terry that allows the team to stay competitive...
If there is a better point guard out there than Rozier to stay competitive if Kyrie leaves, you probably can't get him because you won't have the cap space. Only way Horford is opting out in my opinion is if Boston has agreed on a longterm deal with him, and Hayward currently has negative value because he hasn't bounced all the way back yet.

So in my opinion, if Kyrie walks next year you're coming back with basically the same core roster you have right now minus Kyrie and possibly minus Rozier if someone offers him a huge deal you don't want to match.

Doesn't seem like anything to worry about now since there is nothing to do while waiting for Kyrie to sign, or not sign.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I think there could, and has, been a discussion whether trading for AD makes sense. Don't see much of an argument outside of fear of health for being OK with Kyrie walking away. Think the health risk is s just a risk you have to take.
Here's the flip side of this question.

If the Cs win the title, do they still trade for AD?

What if they lose in the finals?

1st world problems I know.
 

mcpickl

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Here's the flip side of this question.

If the Cs win the title, do they still trade for AD?

What if they lose in the finals?

1st world problems I know.
It's not what fans want to hear, but I believe that choice will be made by Kyrie.

No matter what their results are this season, I think to get AD the Celtics will have to include Tatum.

If Kyrie wants AD to stay and is willing to let his guy Tatum go in a deal, he goes.

If Kyrie is willing to stay without trading for AD and keeping Tatum, they keep Tatum.

Kyrie will be the decision maker in my opinion, whatever route he wants to go that gets him to stay is what they do.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Just another weekend for Kyrie....
Yeah I saw another post that claimed that the "two" Kyrie seems to indicate is for max slots. The reality is that we don't know if Kyrie is trying to convince Durant to go with him to NY, to CP3 his way to Boston, to buy into a great timeshare deal or simply to get two tables in the club after the game.
 

Red Averages

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Of course, all of this goes away if Kyrie just reaffirms he is staying a few weeks ago. And yet, here we are.
 

Bunt4aTriple

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Of course, all of this goes away if Kyrie just reaffirms he is staying a few weeks ago. And yet, here we are.
In all sincerity, how often will he have to reaffirm between now and July to satisfy you? Is it every few months? After each "plausible" rumor? Whenever a reporter sticks a microphone in his face? Nothing changes from now until then, so I'd prefer he and the team focus on this season and not appeasing the media.
 

Red Averages

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In all sincerity, how often will he have to reaffirm between now and July to satisfy you? Is it every few months? After each "plausible" rumor? Whenever a reporter sticks a microphone in his face? Nothing changes from now until then, so I'd prefer he and the team focus on this season and not appeasing the media.
Best way to keep the focus would be to leave no doubt. This was discussed thoroughly with the AD speculation before the deadline. He had a golden opportunity to make it clear, he chose not to. Here we are.

A good example of this would be Brad addressing Hayward’s odds of returning last year.
 

Devizier

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I guess I don't care all that much. Kyrie has earned the right to choose where he plays next year. He doesn't owe anything to us.
 

Red Averages

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I guess I don't care all that much. Kyrie has earned the right to choose where he plays next year. He doesn't owe anything to us.
I never said he doesn’t have the right.

He does owe us something when he guarantees us he is staying, in front of all the season ticket holders largely responsible for paying his max salary, and then fails to address the obvious to everyone situation while proclaiming himself leader. If he leaves, so be it - but to guarantee he is staying and then leave as a FA would be a horrible look.

I still think he stays, but even that would have gone so much smoother if he just addressed the situation completely when asked. Frustrating - to the point that he is less fun to root for.
 

DrewDawg

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LOL.

Yes, Kyrie Irving was discussing this in the hallway before the All Star Game with a camera 5 feet away.

Okay.
 

InstaFace

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Of course, all of this goes away if Kyrie just reaffirms he is staying a few weeks ago. And yet, here we are.
He affirmed it to celtics season-ticket holders. That was good enough for me.

"Ask me in July" I think is far likelier to mean "stop fucking asking me, I already said my piece and I'm goddamn tired of fueling your gossip mill", than it is to mean "I'm legitimately undecided now and won't make a decision until July". Even if, in the former case, it has the exact effect of fueling the gossip mill rather than putting it to bed.
 

djbayko

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He affirmed it to celtics season-ticket holders. That was good enough for me.

"Ask me in July" I think is far likelier to mean "stop fucking asking me, I already said my piece and I'm goddamn tired of fueling your gossip mill", than it is to mean "I'm legitimately undecided now and won't make a decision until July". Even if, in the former case, it has the exact effect of fueling the gossip mill rather than putting it to bed.
All that matters to me is that Danny has his finger on the pulse. The recent report that the Celtics FO is upset with Klutch for leaking false news about Kyrie should tell us that there’s probably more alignment there than we at first feared.

And I’m with the people who LOL at the idea Kyrie is talking with Durant about ditching their teams for NYK out in the open. In fact, I love that he’s getting cozy with these potential Celtics players.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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LOL.

Yes, Kyrie Irving was discussing this in the hallway before the All Star Game with a camera 5 feet away.

Okay.
They were totally planning to go to the Knicks. Lip readers on Twitter said so.

And also, they discussed Rich Kleinman's new contract as Owner/GM/Courtside MC of the New York Knicks. As Sprtsguy33 said on his podcast, he heard it from three people that the Knicks are totally for sale too.

You guys need to stop relying on facts and pay attention to media chatter and Twitter comments. The latter two sources of information are way more accurate because nobody in the press or social media has a vested interest in stirring stuff up just for eyeball/discussion sake.
 

lovegtm

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The factor that's changed the most since his proclamation is the length of Hayward's recovery was taking. Kyrie probably wants to either get healthy Hayward back, or get AD, preferably both. He knows that Danny can make the latter happen, and I imagine they have an understanding that Kyrie is staying if the team looks like a championship contender, which means AD, barring an amazing playoff run. That's the cleanest way to explain not only his lack of clarity recently, but also Ainge's seeming confidence that he'll stay.

As for the NYC rumors--I'm old enough to remember when it was a lock that Kyrie and Jimmy Butler were going to team up for the Knicks in 2019. The Knicks probably have an intern whose only job is Kyrie subversion.
 

CreedBratton

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Chris Vernon on the new Ringer NBA Show Podcast said over All-Star weekend he didn’t find/hear anyone who thought Kyrie was going to be in Boston next year.

Obviously he’s no Woj, but thought I would pass it along after listening to the podcast.
 

BigSoxFan

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Chris Vernon on the new Ringer NBA Show Podcast said over All-Star weekend he didn’t find/hear anyone who thought Kyrie was going to be in Boston next year.

Obviously he’s no Woj, but thought I would pass it along after listening to the podcast.
Doesn’t mean much but definitely seems like a growing consensus. In Danny we trust.
 

RedOctober3829

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At least we know what's going on in the locker room via that interview from Rachael Nichols. The issue, as myself and others have noted, is that the young guys don't want to take a back seat to the players that did not play in the playoffs last year.
 

BigSoxFan

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At least we know what's going on in the locker room via that interview from Rachael Nichols. The issue, as myself and others have noted, is that the young guys don't want to take a back seat to the players that did not play in the playoffs last year.
Which is kind of dumb. Kyrie Irving is a top 20 guy and former champion. This is his team and everyone knows it. So, is the issue really with Hayward? We’re talking another former all-star who the team invested a max contract on. It would be dumb of the young guys to resent him getting minutes.
 

RedOctober3829

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Which is kind of dumb. Kyrie Irving is a top 20 guy and former champion. This is his team and everyone knows it. So, is the issue really with Hayward? We’re talking another former all-star who the team invested a max contract on. It would be dumb of the young guys to resent him getting minutes.
Rozier is an RFA and wants to get paid so he wants to put up numbers to get a big offer sheet. I'm not surprised there's an issue with him. If Brown has an issue with Hayward playing, well that's on him. Hayward when healthy is a better player than Brown.
 

Jimbodandy

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Which is kind of dumb. Kyrie Irving is a top 20 guy and former champion. This is his team and everyone knows it. So, is the issue really with Hayward? We’re talking another former all-star who the team invested a max contract on. It would be dumb of the young guys to resent him getting minutes.
It would be dumb if it weren't fabricated nonsense.
 

sox311

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That's what she said.
Brad is the leader right? Does he not address this with his players? Do they just not listen to him? With this much talk about inside the locker room why would anyone want to play with Kyrie or try to improve their playing relationship. It really keeps confusing me more and more.
 

lovegtm

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Brad is the leader right? Does he not address this with his players? Do they just not listen to him? With this much talk about inside the locker room why would anyone want to play with Kyrie or try to improve their playing relationship. It really keeps confusing me more and more.
There's only so much you can address. This situation is much more on Danny than on Brad, imo. That said, there's still a lot of time to solve the situation.
 

Jimbodandy

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The words literally came from Kyrie's mouth in the Nichols interview.
Young guys think that they are capable of doing more than they have been doing <> young guys don't want to take a back seat.

Of course they want to play, especially walk year Rozier. It would be a problem if they didn't.

Implying that "we know what's going on in that locker room" is wrong. What we have is elite level speculation.
 

BigSoxFan

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It would be dumb if it weren't fabricated nonsense.
What is fabricated? There have clearly been locker room issues. We’ve seen Kyrie ripping teammates, Morris and Brown in the huddle, Rozier talking about his contract, like 5,000 team meetings, etc. It’s quite possible that the internal strife is getting overblown but I have a hard time believing that nothing is there.
 

joe dokes

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There's only so much you can address. This situation is much more on Danny than on Brad, imo. That said, there's still a lot of time to solve the situation.
Not only is there only so much that can be addressed, there is only so much that can be "solved." The players feel the way they feel, and its not going to change. But how they feel isn;t important.
In this context, "solving" doesn't mean anything more than they keep their personal shit out of the games.
And its not on anyone but the players to keep their shit out of the games. Its up to the coach to not play the players that can't do that.

The SI piece from earlier this season following the Warriors as they were going thru their shit was interesting in this regard.
 
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joe dokes

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Young guys think that they are capable of doing more than they have been doing <> young guys don't want to take a back seat.

Of course they want to play, especially walk year Rozier. It would be a problem if they didn't.

Implying that "we know what's going on in that locker room" is wrong. What we have is elite level speculation.
It also sounds like he included himself among those "young guys," seeing as how he specificaly mentioned being 26. Anyone taking from *that* interview that there are some sort of serious problems that are holding the team back is reaching.
 

Jimbodandy

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What is fabricated? There have clearly been locker room issues. We’ve seen Kyrie ripping teammates, Morris and Brown in the huddle, Rozier talking about his contract, like 5,000 team meetings, etc. It’s quite possible that the internal strife is getting overblown but I have a hard time believing that nothing is there.
Yes of course. The team thought they were a 60+ win team, but for a variety of reasons that's not true. And Morris/Rozier playing for their next deal creates some tension. Enough quality players that practically nobody will be 100% happy with their minutes. These are things that teams encounter all of the time. You could switch Kyrie with 20 other guys in the league, and that guy is saying almost the same shit.

It also sounds like he included himself among those "young guys."
All I took from his interview is that winning this year has been harder than they expected, and everyone thinks that they should play more.
 

DrewDawg

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I've yet to watch the interview, but they were talking about this on NBA Radio, including Tim Legler, and it *seems* that the court of public opinion is starting to slide in favor of the young Celtics players.

Some points they made (I was on a call and couldn't hear all of it):
1-Leaders don't have to continually tell people they're leaders.
2-No NBA player will willingly take backseat, and they shouldn't.
3-Irving not going to game 7 was seen by NBA types are not very leader-ish.

Said that this can still resolve itself by seeing how this version of Celtics perform in postseason. If they see Irving get them over the hump they couldn't get over last year then this may go one way. If they don't get as far then it spins the other.

I'm coming to the realization that I thought the Celtics future used to be 2 paths:
1-Irving, AD trade, let's roll
2-Irving, young guns, let's roll

and that may not be the case any longer.

This is why we pay Ainge though. And since nothing will resolve itself this year, might as well enjoy what we have now, because all that meticulous planning may be out the window because this team overperformed last year. Seems weird that playing so well may have changed the future trajectory of the franchise--that had we just bowed out earlier last year, some of this may not have cropped up. Of course, if the issues are tied to Irving and his leadership style, it's likely it would have popped up somehow anyway.
 
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Gash Prex

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I thought he was saying when he was a younger player he didn’t get the minutes he wanted - but maybe I misunderstood
 

DrewDawg

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I thought he was saying when he was a younger player he didn’t get the minutes he wanted - but maybe I misunderstood
The quote was something like "I'm 26, why do I have to wait?" He's 26 now.


I don't know. I was 100% #TeamKyrie but if the dude had issues being the young player on a team led by veteran star and now has issues being the veteran star on a team with young players--well, maybe stop looking everywhere else for the issue?
 

Gash Prex

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The quote was something like "I'm 26, why do I have to wait?" He's 26 now.


I don't know. I was 100% #TeamKyrie but if the dude had issues being the young player on a team led by veteran star and now has issues being the veteran star on a team with young players--well, maybe stop looking everywhere else for the issue?
It's been a trying year for us," Irving told Nichols. "We basically have a bunch of young men in our locker room who feel like they're capable of doing a lot more than they're doing. And that's OK, but there's a maturing that you have to have. There's a professionalism that you have to showcase every single day, and that's what the great ones do.

"I initially didn't play the minutes I wanted to play. I'm 26 years old, heading into my prime, like, why do I have to wait for anybody? [Terry Rozier] played in the playoffs. He did extremely well. Coming back, that's a natural competition that me and him have.”
In context I thought he was referring to back in the day.
 

bigq

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All of these guys should want to play all 48. Those are the kind of competitors I want on my team. Nothing to see here in my view.
 

Red Averages

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I find Kyrie increasingly annoying to root for.

Just like David Price, he is really going to need to step up this postseason.
 

DrewDawg

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I mean, then you should'nt have said anything before the season.

EDIT: Re: the Price comparison, it's worth noting that as much as Price seemingly hates the press here, he seems to love playing here.