John Farrell: Not on the Hot Seat

[Rasputin]

Really?   I feel bad for Farrell.  He looked impotent.  I don't think this was a big deal,  but it sure as hell will be made to look like one.  And in Red Sox world,  perception is reality.

 
No it isn't. Perception is fucking perception. It's not fucking reality. I hate that saying. It is complete and utter bullshit every single time it's uttered. Perception is an aspect of reality that must sometimes be dealt with, but the fact that someone or something is perceived a certain way does not in any way make it fucking true.
 
And here's a fucking reality. There are no perceptions about the Red Sox or any of their players, coaches, front office staff, or owners that cannot be fixed by winning.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

 
Keeping his head and moving on didn't make him look impotent. Screaming back at Miley would have made him look like a clown

Exactly. I think if anything that interaction should garner some respect for Farrell. He must be frustrated as much as the players are, as well as worried about his job and it would have been very easy for him to get right back in his face. Discretion is the better part of valor, etc, etc.

 

[NDame616]

So, because "a dink" like Miley felt he "could" scream at Farrell, it shows he's lost the clubhouse? If Ortiz did it after being PH for a leftie, or Sandoval for the same reason, would we not want Farrell fired because those guys are (supposed to be) stars?

 

[semsox]

 
Keeping his head and moving on didn't make him look impotent. Screaming back at Miley would have made him look like a clown

Exactly. I think if anything that interaction should garner some respect for Farrell. He must be frustrated as much as the players are, as well as worried about his job and it would have been very easy for him to get right back in his face. Discretion is the better part of valor, etc, etc.

 
Agree with both of these. Farrell is basically a parent weathering a tantrum from a child last night. There's no point in shouting back since they're irrational. Just nod your head and deal with it like an adult afterwards, which is exactly what he did. Honestly makes me think more of Farrell that he's such a professional when dealing with this kind of non-sense.  

 

[grimshaw]

I interpreted it as Farrell stealing Miley's skunk dinner, and Miley flipping out because he hadn't even gotten to the tail yet.
Just seemed like a good ole' boy losing his cool.

 

[Green Monster]

I think Farrel handled things fine.  The fact that he followed Miley into the tunnel and Miley returned in a much subdued manner makes me feel that Farrel dealt with things in a firm manner in the tunnel.....There was nothing to be gained by further embarassing a player in the post game interview and he didn't.  Ultimately that should gain him respect by the other players as long as it is clear that he has infact dealt with the situation privately.  On the flip side, I would have liked to see a little remorse from Miley.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I think Farrel handled things fine.  The fact that he followed Miley into the tunnel and Miley returned in a much subdued manner makes me feel that Farrel dealt with things in a firm manner in the tunnel.....There was nothing to be gained by further embarassing a player in the post game interview and he didn't.  Ultimately that should gain him respect by the other players as long as it is clear that he has infact dealt with the situation privately.  On the flip side, I would have liked to see a little remorse from Miley.

They made mention of it during the broadcast, but the fact that Miley was in the dugout, still in uniform, in the 6th/7th inning was something of an act of contrition. Typically once the "book" is closed on a pitcher, they're in the clubhouse, showering and getting treatment (ice) before the game is over. I think he was trying to send the message that he was wrong and was in support of the manager and his teammates. After all, he could have been sulking and fuming all by himself in the clubhouse.

 

[JimD]

They made mention of it during the broadcast, but the fact that Miley was in the dugout, still in uniform, in the 6th/7th inning was something of an act of contrition. Typically once the "book" is closed on a pitcher, they're in the clubhouse, showering and getting treatment (ice) before the game is over. I think he was trying to send the message that he was wrong and was in support of the manager and his teammates. After all, he could have been sulking and fuming all by himself in the clubhouse.

 
Or washing down on a bucket of Popeye's with a few frosty Buds.

 

[Green Monster]

They made mention of it during the broadcast, but the fact that Miley was in the dugout, still in uniform, in the 6th/7th inning was something of an act of contrition. Typically once the "book" is closed on a pitcher, they're in the clubhouse, showering and getting treatment (ice) before the game is over. I think he was trying to send the message that he was wrong and was in support of the manager and his teammates. After all, he could have been sulking and fuming all by himself in the clubhouse.

True....I was refering specifially to Miley's post game interview.  "You want to talk about the game I will talk about the game".....  I would have rather he said I was frustrated by my performance and took it out on the manager.  John and I are good, I want to put this behind us and move forward. 

 

[catomatic]

I'm having a hard time finding the phrases "Last Straw" and "Lost the Clubhouse" in the posts of people who read some significance into last night's flare-up. It's fine to take the opposite view but let's not put words in each others' mouths.

 

[rembrat]

I'm having a hard time finding the phrases "Last Straw" and "Lost the Clubhouse" in the posts of people who read some significance into last night's flare-up. It's fine to take the opposite view but let's not put words in each others' mouths.

 
No but you and a few others are starting to lay the groundwork. Miley losing his cool during a bout of extreme frustration does not mean the inmates are running the asylum. And Farrell's handling of the situation, despite what the armchair psychologist of SoSH have to say, was perfect. I cringe to think how a Bobby Valentine or a less in control manager would have handled it. 

 

[judyb]

No but you and a few others are starting to lay the groundwork. Miley losing his cool during a bout of extreme frustration does not mean the inmates are running the asylum. And Farrell's handling of the situation, despite what the armchair psychologist of SoSH have to say, was perfect. I cringe to think how a Bobby Valentine or a less in control manager would have handled it.

That's the funniest part of this whole thing, Farrell reacted like a grownup, and the people criticizing him for it actually seem to believe that acting like Bobby Valentine would have is the way to earn the respect of his team.

 

[Doctor G]

Farrell is dealing with  a lack of discipline  across the board , whether it's position players or pitchers.He made a mistake in spring training  by  assigning the task of  showing the Red Sox way of doing things to Ortiz  and Pedroia. Ortiz for  Ramirez and Sandoval. Pedroia for the young guys. As far as the pitchers are concerned  there was no one to fill this role  hence the dumping of Nieves and subsequent regret by Buchholz who should have taken on a leadership role  but sort of blew it in that NYY game   on Sunday night on ESPN.
There is a reason why Farrell has adopted a standard response of " these guys are major leaguers" they know what they should be doing." This is passing the buck, especially when the mistakes and bad decisions keep happening.
Time to call  the Angels and see if DiSarcina wants to come back to the organization and his home town.
 
Things can't get worse. With so many young players exposed to this it is  not something you should continue through September. 

 

[chrisfont9]

Thank you for that video. I could watch that all night.

Eck is the one reason I can think of to still watch this team. And by "watch" I mean the post-game show, not the actual game. 

 

[Bigpupp]

Farrell is dealing with  a lack of discipline  across the board , whether it's position players or pitchers.

I would love to see some examples of this. Should be pretty easy to come up with 5 or 6 considering they are "across the board."

 

[lexrageorge]

Farrell is dealing with  a lack of discipline  across the board , whether it's position players or pitchers.He made a mistake in spring training  by  assigning the task of  showing the Red Sox way of doing things to Ortiz  and Pedroia. Ortiz for  Ramirez and Sandoval. Pedroia for the young guys. As far as the pitchers are concerned  there was no one to fill this role  hence the dumping of Nieves and subsequent regret by Buchholz who should have taken on a leadership role  but sort of blew it in that NYY game   on Sunday night on ESPN.
There is a reason why Farrell has adopted a standard response of " these guys are major leaguers" they know what they should be doing." This is passing the buck, especially when the mistakes and bad decisions keep happening.
Time to call  the Angels and see if DiSarcina wants to come back to the organization and his home town.
 
Things can't get worse. With so many young players exposed to this it is  not something you should continue through September. 

The replacing of Nieves with Willis has been a net benefit to this team.  And please explain how having Pedroia or Ortiz work with some new arrivals a bad thing.  Buchholz has been quite good outside of one really bad game and 1 or 2 middling ones.  He's is not the problem.  
 
The roster is an issue; the performance of those players on the roster is an issue.  The manager is down near the bottom of the list of issues that are hurting this team right now.

 

[joe dokes]

Farrell is dealing with  a lack of discipline  across the board , whether it's position players or pitchers.He made a mistake in spring training  by  assigning the task of  showing the Red Sox way of doing things to Ortiz  and Pedroia. Ortiz for  Ramirez and Sandoval. Pedroia for the young guys. As far as the pitchers are concerned  there was no one to fill this role  hence the dumping of Nieves and subsequent regret by Buchholz who should have taken on a leadership role  but sort of blew it in that NYY game   on Sunday night on ESPN.
There is a reason why Farrell has adopted a standard response of " these guys are major leaguers" they know what they should be doing." This is passing the buck, especially when the mistakes and bad decisions keep happening.
Time to call  the Angels and see if DiSarcina wants to come back to the organization and his home town.
 
Things can't get worse. With so many young players exposed to this it is  not something you should continue through September. 

 
Other than being long and inscrutable, what is this?  They are sucking because too many of them are playing suckily.

 

[catomatic]

 
No but you and a few others are starting to lay the groundwork. Miley losing his cool during a bout of extreme frustration does not mean the inmates are running the asylum. And Farrell's handling of the situation, despite what the armchair psychologist of SoSH have to say, was perfect. I cringe to think how a Bobby Valentine or a less in control manager would have handled it. 

I'm laying no groundwork, I have no hidden agenda. I saw no last straw, nor any evidence that Farrell's lost the clubhouse. For the reasons I've said upthread, the episode didn't inspire confidence, that's all. I don't happen to think he handled it perfectly—we can agree to disagree what perfectly means. I think that's open to debate. If I were managing—and it's a good thing I'm not—I would have said what I had to say in the dugout, let him go to the clubhouse and continued to manage the game. I think that's the stronger way. What I saw last night was a guy who wanted to be liked and didn't want to let his pitcher be mad at him. That's what I saw. You saw something else. It's subjective and a waste of time to argue about. I'm not calling for his firing, I only offered that it didn't inspire confidence and that a desperate GM might see it as something that would shift public perception towards blaming the manager and eventually accepting his firing more readily. No more, no less.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

I'm laying no groundwork, I have no hidden agenda. I saw no last straw, nor any evidence that Farrell's lost the clubhouse. For the reasons I've said upthread, the episode didn't inspire confidence, that's all. I don't happen to think he handled it perfectly—we can agree to disagree what perfectly means. I think that's open to debate. If I were managing—and it's a good thing I'm not—I would have said what I had to say in the dugout, let him go to the clubhouse and continued to manage the game. I think that's the stronger way. What I saw last night was a guy who wanted to be liked and didn't want to let his pitcher be mad at him. That's what I saw. You saw something else. It's subjective and a waste of time to argue about. I'm not calling for his firing, I only offered that it didn't inspire confidence and that a desperate GM might see it as something that would shift public perception towards blaming the manager and eventually accepting his firing more readily. No more, no less.

 
The only rational inference about what Farrell "wanted" that we can make from his going down the runway with Miley is that he wanted to deliver a message in private. *What* the message was, only Farrell and Miley know. And without knowing that, speculation about Farrell "wanting to be liked"--or wanting anything else--is 100% idle.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Peter Gammons ‏@pgammo 2h2 hours ago
If the Red Sox had Adam Jones? Miley, says one O, "never gets to Farrell's plate." But they don't have Adam Jones.
 
***
 
Not certain what he means, but I took it as no one in the dugout willing to tell Miley to shut up before he went up to Farrell

 

[The Talented Allen Ripley]

 
The only rational inference about what Farrell "wanted" that we can make from his going down the runway with Miley is that he wanted to deliver a message in private. *What* the message was, only Farrell and Miley know. And without knowing that, speculation about Farrell "wanting to be liked"--or wanting anything else--is 100% idle.

 
This. It's just as likely Farrell tore Miley a new asshole, but he knew enough to keep in private.

 

[rembrat]

Peter Gammons ‏@pgammo 2h2 hours ago
If the Red Sox had Adam Jones? Miley, says one O, "never gets to Farrell's plate." But they don't have Adam Jones.
 
***
 
Not certain what he means, but I took it as no one in the dugout willing to tell Miley to shut up before he went up to Farrell

 
I got to the TV late but I saw Panda trying to cool Miley down in the dugout. Was this pre or post tunnel? 

 

[BannedbyNYYFans.com]

 
No it isn't. Perception is fucking perception. It's not fucking reality. I hate that saying. It is complete and utter bullshit every single time it's uttered. Perception is an aspect of reality that must sometimes be dealt with, but the fact that someone or something is perceived a certain way does not in any way make it fucking true.
 
And here's a fucking reality. There are no perceptions about the Red Sox or any of their players, coaches, front office staff, or owners that cannot be fixed by winning.

 
Ten minutes into F&M on the incident.  "It's a bad sign, it's a bad look.  And perception is reality."  Haha, right on cue.  

 

[dynomite]

Peter Gammons ‏@pgammo 2h2 hours ago
If the Red Sox had Adam Jones? Miley, says one O, "never gets to Farrell's plate." But they don't have Adam Jones.
 
***
 
Not certain what he means, but I took it as no one in the dugout willing to tell Miley to shut up before he went up to Farrell

Oh gimme a break.

Yeah, I wish the Sox had real leaders in that dugout, like, oh I don't know, 3-time World Series Champion David Ortiz and 2-time World Series Champion Dustin "Laser Show" Pedroia.

I think Miley was out of line and should probably be punished in some way, but I'm all set with the advice from the members of the 29-30 Orioles.

 

[InsideTheParker]

Of course he's far from the action now, but on mlbn last night, Pedro said he wouldn't be upset if he were the manager. He liked the passion, the desire to stay in the game, and expected that Farrell understood that.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Wait, so is Adam Jones reputed to be a Leader with a capital "L"?  I was unaware he had that reputation.
 
I interpret Gammons to mean something along the lines of if Jones was in a Sox uniform, Miley gets better defense behind him or doesn't give up a HR and a double to Jones and maybe has a better outing.  I don't know.  This is Gammons we're trying to dissect.  He's been losing his mind for years now.

 

[teddywingman]

It's like some encrypted message; except it's just Gammo.

 

[Carmen Fanzone]

 
The only rational inference about what Farrell "wanted" that we can make from his going down the runway with Miley is that he wanted to deliver a message in private. *What* the message was, only Farrell and Miley know.

I bet he called Miley a lollygagger. Then threw some bats into the shower. That's what real managers do.

 

[mauidano]

 
No it isn't. Perception is fucking perception. It's not fucking reality. I hate that saying. It is complete and utter bullshit every single time it's uttered. Perception is an aspect of reality that must sometimes be dealt with, but the fact that someone or something is perceived a certain way does not in any way make it fucking true.
 
And here's a fucking reality. There are no perceptions about the Red Sox or any of their players, coaches, front office staff, or owners that cannot be fixed by winning.

 
Nailed it. Just win some games. Anyone remember this little yelling in the dugout episode? These are grown men. Get over it and win some games.

 

[MuzzyField]

World Series Papi leadership is much different than regular season (get me the official scorer) Papi leadership. Pedroia is the 24/7 heart, soul and guts of this team.

 

[catomatic]

 
The only rational inference about what Farrell "wanted" that we can make from his going down the runway with Miley is that he wanted to deliver a message in private. *What* the message was, only Farrell and Miley know. And without knowing that, speculation about Farrell "wanting to be liked"--or wanting anything else--is 100% idle.

I believe I said just that. I only represented how I saw it—just as others have surmised it was the "perfect" response, just as you have characterized it yourself according to your own subjective lights. Read what I wrote.

 

[AimingForYoko]

 
I got to the TV late but I saw Panda trying to cool Miley down in the dugout. Was this pre or post tunnel? 

Post tunnel.

 

[joyofsox]

Farrell: "What happened in the dugout last night was a pitcher who was competitive [and] obviously did not like the decision to be removed from the game. But the outburst in the dugout was something that's, you know, unacceptable. I won't stand for it. As a result, we met immediately following the game. ... He's understanding of my thoughts on it and the fact it's unacceptable. But I think the best thing for all of us is that we turn the page and move on."
 
http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/13067099/boston-red-sox-manager-john-farrell-calls-wade-miley-eruption-unacceptable

 

[Plympton91]

I'd love to see a stat comparing the number of 5+ run innings under various managers normalized to overall team ERA or something like that. Seems like preventing big innings is something you might like you manager to show some skill at doing. Farrell seems particularly bad at it, but I freely admit that could be parochial bias.

 

[Harry Hooper]

Tomase (yes, consider the source) did an inning of the game tonight on WEEI. He said someone in the Sox clubhouse told him Miley wasn't upset about getting yanked from the game last night, he was upset to see bullpen action while he was pitching the 4th.

 

[teddywingman]

That probably is the reason; but when you're pitching that bad keep your mouth shut.

Unless you have very little respect for your manager and know that your teammates feel the same.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Tomase (yes, consider the source) did an inning of the game tonight on WEEI. He said someone in the Sox clubhouse told him Miley wasn't upset about getting yanked from the game last night, he was upset to see bullpen action while he was pitching the 4th.

Expect taller bullpen walls at Fenway prior to his next home start. Won't work on the road as well, maybe blinders like they put on racehorses?

 

[moondog80]

Tomase (yes, consider the source) did an inning of the game tonight on WEEI. He said someone in the Sox clubhouse told him Miley wasn't upset about getting yanked from the game last night, he was upset to see bullpen action while he was pitching the 4th.

That's kind of the same thing.

 

[threecy]

That probably is the reason; but when you're pitching that bad keep your mouth shut.

Unless you have very little respect for your manager and know that your teammates feel the same.

John Lackey scowls in your general direction.

 

[teddywingman]

Did Lackey ever do something similar for the world to see?

I remember well how he barked at infielders for not making a play, and when Tito would take the ball from him.

I don't remember anything close to Miley's dugout tirade.

Edit: The footage I've seen makes it appear that nobody in the dugout gave a fuck that a pissant pitcher was screaming at their manager. They almost seemed complacent; if not supportive.

Am I missing something here?

 

[Papo The Snow Tiger]

This is whole situation is beginning to remind me of the last episode of the Mary Tyler Moore Show. For those of you old enough to remember it, the TV station was mired in last place in the ratings and the new ownership was cleaning house. The owner called for a meeting with the last in the ratings news crew, and anchorman Ted Baxter was sure he'd get canned. But the owner said that the problem wasn't in front of the camera, but behind it, and Ted got to stay and Murray the writer, Lou the producer and Mary all got canned. It would be ironic in the trio figures out that the root cause of this shitshow is off the field, and Farrell gets to stay and the whole baseball ops staff gets canned.

 

[rembrat]

Did Lackey ever do something similar for the world to see?

I remember well how he barked at infielders for not making a play, and when Tito would take the ball from him.

I don't remember anything close to Miley's dugout tirade.

Edit: The footage I've seen makes it appear that nobody in the dugout gave a fuck that a pissant pitcher was screaming at their manager. They almost seemed complacent; if not supportive.

Am I missing something here?

 
That you're really reaching?
 
Miley has already come out and said all the right things. He has been apologetic and taken full responsibility for his tantrum. And he has a history:
 

Miley had a similar exchange during the 2014 season as a member of the Arizona Diamondbacks with Arizona manager Kirk Gibson.

 

[irinmike]

Farrell and Miley only said the right things the day after the incident.  After a hailstorm of negative press and media commentary.  Other than the Panda trying to calm Miley down in the dugout, there did appear to be a total disconnect between the coaches and players in close proximity to the incident.  Almost like people on a city street walking by as a mugging occurs while thinking, "I don't want to get involved in this".  

 

[rembrat]

That's usually the mood when someone is going off in the dugout. Whenever a player wails on a Gatorade cooler or takes a bat to a dugout phone everyone else acts like nothing is happening.

 

[teddywingman]

Like when Ortiz smashed the phone?

 

[judyb]

Farrell and Miley only said the right things the day after the incident.  After a hailstorm of negative press and media commentary.  Other than the Panda trying to calm Miley down in the dugout, there did appear to be a total disconnect between the coaches and players in close proximity to the incident.  Almost like people on a city street walking by as a mugging occurs while thinking, "I don't want to get involved in this".

Farrell's a big, strong, not that old guy, they're supposed to act like he needs their protection from being yelled at?

 

[teddywingman]

Farrell's a big, strong, not that old guy, they're supposed to act like he needs their protection from being yelled at?

They don't need to do that--but it would be cool if it looked like they all didn't agree with Miley.

 

[irinmike]

Protection?  I think you miss the point completely.  When a manager or coach gets on a player, that player is usually upset.  In most cases the other players try to calm the player down and get his head straight.  Especially when it occurs on the sidelines or in this case the dugout.    

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Did Lackey ever do something similar for the world to see?

 
His last start as an Angel, 2009 ALCS.
 
http://m.mlb.com/laa/video/topic/0/v7086209/alcs-gm-5-scioscia-pulls-lackey-for-oliver/?c_id=ana

 

[Al Zarilla]

That's usually the mood when someone is going off in the dugout. Whenever a player wails on a Gatorade cooler or takes a bat to a dugout phone everyone else acts like nothing is happening.

True, and if it does get to blows, players and coaches would jump in real fast to break it up. The one that still gets me is when a pitcher has a no hitter going and nobody gets anywhere near him in the dugout. Actually, I heard that Lincecum, in his two, would have no part of that and would start talking to guys in the dugout first.