John Farrell: Not on the Hot Seat

[Savin Hillbilly]

Why was this thread bumped?

 
We lost a game.
 
 

Managing the team is the last part of the job of a manager?

 
No, in-game strategy is the last part of the job of a manager. I'm not sure whether I agree with that (or whether it's even meaningful to rank the different components), but it's a defensible position. "Managing the team" comprehends everything, including the stuff that Ras suggested was more important than in-game strategy. 

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

You're in the 8th inning; scoring one run has fairly significant impact on the win probabilities.  Calling the bunt wasn't the problem.  The problem was Castillo flubbing it, and then Ortiz and Napoli weakly striking out with the tying run in scoring position.  Sometimes it's on the players, and this was indisputably one of those times.  The manager is just the easier target.  

 
Castillo didn't flub the bunt. He got a good enough bunt off to do the job, particularly because Weiters didn't pounce on it all that fast. Watch the replay, it takes Weiters a moment or two longer than a "bad bunt" to get to the ball. The problem was that Pedroia got a terrible jump off second base.
 
But the real problem is the bunt call in the first place. You're down 1 on the road. You need 2 runs to win the game, the bunt doesn't help with that. You've got Ortiz on deck who isn't hitting LHP at all this year; even if the bunt succeeds the O's just bring in the left-hander warming in the pen to face Ortiz (Farrell had to have known the O's had a lefthander warming, didn't he?) and the results would likely not be good. Ortiz had his foot in the bucket through his entire AB, the dude is lost right now against lefties.
 
Calling for the bunt was idiotic strategy even if it had worked. You're giving away an out for no good goddamn reason at all, and the following matchup isn't a good one anyway.There are almost no situations where the bunt is a useful tool for winning a game, and a supposedly sabr-oriented organization like the Red Sox should know that by now.
 
Stupid stupid stupid move on Farrell's part. Stupid.

 

[tims4wins]

SJH, I respectfully disagree.
 
First of all, a successful bunt does bring the 2nd run into scoring position. So it means a hit and you have the two runs you need to win the game.
 
Second of all, a successful bunt might also mean that they IBB Ortiz in order to set up the force at home with Napoli up vs. the righty. Who knows how that would have shaken out.
 
Bottom line, as was mentioned several posts up, that squander was about execution. Castillo has a .250 OBP this year. Ortiz sucks vs. lefties. Napoli, while hot lately, still only has a .315 OBP.
 
This was a classic damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. If Farrell had left Rusney swing away and he hit into a DP, I guarantee the board would be going crazy with "why didn't he bunt".

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

They weren't going to IBB Ortiz. He's hitting 114/111/157 against LHP this year. Buck's an asshole, but he's far from an idiot. If the bunt works they bring in the lefty to pitch to Ortiz and it's EXTREMELY likely to do nothing positive in that AB.
 
It was not a damned if you do situation. You let Rusney swing away. Period. Full stop.
 
And again I say the bunt itself wasn't bad at all. Pedroia running down to third like (to quote Bill James) a fat girl chasing her Westie up a staircase was the real reason the bunt failed. But that's all beside the point. Bunting is a terrible stupid outdated idea and it prevents teams from winning games.

 

[tims4wins]

You're probably right that they still bring in the lefty to face Ortiz, but it changes the situation - all Ortiz needs to do is make a productive out, and on the flip side, there is a base open so the pitcher doesn't necessarily have to go right after Ortiz. Chance are he still doesn't do anything productive, but it does change the situation.
 
But again, this goes back to the players sucking. If Ortiz had no prayer then it didn't really matter what Castillo did. Say he got a base hit to tie the game and then it was 1st and 2nd, no outs, tie game. Ortiz still K's, Napoli still K's, chances are they only push 1 run across which still doesn't do enough to win the game.
 
If your 4-5-6 hitters suck, it makes managing the offense pretty difficult. I think the bunt was a 50-50 call and I don't fault him for trying to increase his chances at scoring 1 or 2 runs that inning.
 
Edit: and just to reiterate my point about damned if you do, damned if you don't: you are arguing that Farrell screwed up by not allowing a guy with a .250 OBP to swing away. Think about that for a second. .250 OBP is horrible. Like, Cesar Crespo bad (actually he had a career .270 OBP). When your options are shitty, sometimes it doesn't matter what decision you make.

 

[Kilgore A. Trout]

 
We lost a game.
 
 
 
No, in-game strategy is the last part of the job of a manager. I'm not sure whether I agree with that (or whether it's even meaningful to rank the different components), but it's a defensible position. "Managing the team" comprehends everything, including the stuff that Ras suggested was more important than in-game strategy. 

All right.  But of the three others things he mentioned, getting his team to play hard, he absolutely does not do, is probably what he is worst at.  And I would say that is the most important part of his job, and his incompetence at it is why he is a bad manager.

 

[lexrageorge]

I realize it's not considered good form to use the run scoring probability tables on this forum for some unknown and bizarre reason, but I will do it anyway.  A successful bunt increases the chance of getting one run across by 5%.  I can't really blame Farrell for attempting to get that extra 5%.  Yes, maybe they bring in the LHP to face Ortiz.  But they also had Napoli coming up to face the LHP, and he did no better than Ortiz.  And there is the fact that Castillo is a real double play risk.  A tie game leaving the inning is still far better than being down 1-0 leaving the inning.  
 
Farrell is not the problem; the reality is that the heart of roster is aging dramatically right before our very eyes.  

 

[Adrian's Dome]

But again, this goes back to the players sucking. If Ortiz had no prayer then it didn't really matter what Castillo did. Say he got a base hit to tie the game and then it was 1st and 2nd, no outs, tie game. Ortiz still K's, Napoli still K's, chances are they only push 1 run across which still doesn't do enough to win the game.

 
Except for the part about the game being tied in that scenario. That's...pretty important. It's not enough to win, but it's also enough to prevent the loss.
 
The bunt didn't increase the chances of winning the game. The rationale that getting two runners into scoring position might make sense on paper, but given (again,) Ortiz's presence vs a lefty, that's not ideal versus just letting Rusney swing away.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

All right.  But of the three others things he mentioned, getting his team to play hard, he absolutely does not do, is probably what he is worst at.  And I would say that is the most important part of his job, and his incompetence at it is why he is a bad manager.

How do you quantify who is "playing hard?"  Betts, Holt, Swihart, Pedroia, Castillo, Bogaerts all look like they're "playing hard" to me.  Nap may not be playing well, but I've see no indication that he isn't "playing hard."  The pitchers--"hard."
 
Hanley, Papi, Panda--they're all playing exactly as they have in the past.
 
This concept of the players not caring or not playing hard, and then pinning this on the manager, is just stupid.

 

[Kilgore A. Trout]

How do you quantify who is "playing hard?"  Betts, Holt, Swihart, Pedroia, Castillo, Bogaerts all look like they're "playing hard" to me.  Nap may not be playing well, but I've see no indication that he isn't "playing hard."  The pitchers--"hard."
 
Hanley, Papi, Panda--they're all playing exactly as they have in the past.
 
This concept of the players not caring or not playing hard, and then pinning this on the manager, is just stupid.

So the manager is not responsible for team wide underperformance, bad execution, and outright stupid play on an almost daily basis for all of last year and this year so far.  The only thing he's at fault for is costing the team a few games with his atrocious in game decisions, but hey, that's the trade off for having someone there everyone likes.  Being good with the media is far more important.
And you might be the only person who thinks Ortiz is playing like he always had.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

So the manager is not responsible for team wide underperformance, bad execution, and outright stupid play on an almost daily basis for all of last year and this year so far.  The only thing he's at fault for is costing the team a few games with his atrocious in game decisions, but hey, that's the trade off for having someone there everyone likes.  Being good with the media is far more important.
And you might be the only person who thinks Ortiz is playing like he always had.

I said none of those things.  I was simply responding to your post, which was entirely about "playing hard."
 
And I see no evidence of Ortiz playing less "hard" than in the past.

 

[Rovin Romine]

 
We lost a game.
 

 
Actually we've lost 32.   59 games into the season and we're 6.5 games back in the division, 4.5 in the WC.  Point being the Sox haven't elevated themselves beyond a .500 team, despite getting an historically strong rookie debut from Rodriguez.  
 
Anecdotally I'd say, Farrell isn't good at putting players in a position to succeed or in rescuing players from failure.  That said he has limited resources to work with. Although he's got some say as to what those resources are. 
 
Last night is a perfect case in point.  Hanley gets injured and Farrell can sub either Runsey or De Aza.  So he subs the defensively superior Runsey.  Totally defensible.  That leaves De Aza, Leon, and Bianchi (I think?) on the bench to PH or sub. So we get into the 8th.  The bunt call is what it is.  However, it's totally predictable that whatever happens, Britton's coming in.  He is a lefty.  The 39yr old Ortiz cannot hit lefties this year.   While Ortiz has had historical success against Britton, it's not like he's owned the guy - and, at this point, 4 year old data may not apply.   At this point De Aza seems a better bet and his couple years of success against lefties would seem to weigh more than Ortiz's.  (And while the Orioles certainly have a book on him, it's not like they didn't have one on Ortiz. 
 
If he had faith in Ortiz to hit, why not sub De Aza for Runsey?  If not, why not De Aza for Ortiz?  Perhaps De Aza was unavailable or something.  (And it's a damn weak bench.  Are we still carrying Bianchi?  Why?)
 
But it's hard not to view this as Farrell not thinking one step ahead.  
 
When you've got a powerhouse team, Tito/Farrell overall management is great.  When the team is scrounging for wins, I don't think good press conference skills outweigh the ability to string back to back wins together.  I'm not into sports psychology, but repeated failures can't be good for the individual players or for the team.  

 

[Toe Nash]

Rusney apparently had the green light to swing 3-0 earlier in the game, with Ortiz on deck and a runner on third. It's pretty incongruous to do that (assuming he didn't swing on his own) and then three innings later take the bat off his shoulders.
 
Did we also forget about his rally-sparking dinger in the previous game? I don't bunt in that situation with many players if I'm manager, but he definitely seems like someone you might want to let break out.

 

[lexrageorge]

 
Actually we've lost 32.   59 games into the season and we're 6.5 games back in the division, 4.5 in the WC.  Point being the Sox haven't elevated themselves beyond a .500 team, despite getting an historically strong rookie debut from Rodriguez.  
 
...
If he had faith in Ortiz to hit, why not sub De Aza for Runsey?  If not, why not De Aza for Ortiz?  Perhaps De Aza was unavailable or something.  (And it's a damn weak bench.  Are we still carrying Bianchi?  Why?)
 
...

 
 

Rusney apparently had the green light to swing 3-0 earlier in the game, with Ortiz on deck and a runner on third. It's pretty incongruous to do that (assuming he didn't swing on his own) and then three innings later take the bat off his shoulders.
 
Did we also forget about his rally-sparking dinger in the previous game? I don't bunt in that situation with many players if I'm manager, but he definitely seems like someone you might want to let break out.

 
This is why Farrell is in a no win situation with this roster.  Had he used DeAza to pinch hit for Rusney or Ortiz, folks would be questioning why they took out their hot hitter, or why Ortiz was not available in the 11th inning.  And the situations between Rusney's 2 at bats were entirely different.  
 
I get that at some point the manager ends up taking the fall for the team's under performance.  No issue with that.  The problem is that chances are high with a new manager the same thread gets repeated with a different title.  Unless it's Joe Maddon, as he somehow always seems to get a pass for making similar mistakes. 

 

[Remagellan]

Unless it's Joe Maddon, as he somehow always seems to get a pass for making similar mistakes. 

 
I'm convinced Joe Maddon is the white version of this:
 
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14ECj4OcCC0[/media]

 

[Toe Nash]

 
 And the situations between Rusney's 2 at bats were entirely different.  
 
 

This doesn't answer the question. You usually only let hitters you're confident in swing 3-0 like Ortiz or someone. You usually don't bunt with those guys. It doesn't make sense.

 

[phenweigh]

On the broadcast, Remy thought Rusney missed the take sign.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

On the broadcast, Remy thought Rusney missed the take sign.

I don't remember hearing that.  In fact, before Rusney swung, Remy said that he might give him the green light, "as crazy as that may sound." 
His complaint after the fact was that he was late on the pitch, instead of pulling/driving it.

 

[phenweigh]

Remy was saying it later in the game.  He noticed that for the bunt sign they made a special effort to get Rusney's attention, which implied that he may have missed the red light earlier.

 

[mfried]

As of the first two Oriole games I have sadly given up on a significant shot at respectability for the season.  In terms of body language, energy and living up to potential - the daily lineup features Pedroia, Holt and Bogaerts.  Hanley is not the rock to build on for a sustained, high production offense.  Betts will be a very good player but looks lost now, especially on offense.  Little basis for joy in Mudville.  The starting pitching is vaguely adequate if the offense were producing, and Tazawa and Uehara look good.  At least we won't see them burned out from overuse.
 
In terms of the thread topic I doubt that Farrell is the problem.  But clubhouse élan is certainly missing and that missing zip prepares the team to lose more than 50%.  What an overpaid pity!

 

[Papo The Snow Tiger]

After tonight's conflict with Wade Miley, I have to think that Farrell's at a crossroads. Miley very publicly showed up his manager in the dugout during a game.. I only saw part of  Farrell's post game comments on NESN, but they were something to the effect of "I respect his (Miley's) competitiveness" We'll never know what will go on behind closed doors, and I can respect that Farrell won't publicly show up a player of his, but Farrell and the Red Sox management can't let this slide if Farrell's going to continue to be the manager. I can remember how Joe Morgan dealt with a disgruntled Jim Rice when he had to, telling him "I'm the manger of this nine", and Wade Miley is no Jim Rice.

 

[teddywingman]

I've always thought he was a terrible in-game manager, but his ability to manage players outweighed the occasional bone headed decisions.

But now a dink like Wade Miley feels comfortable enough to be screaming at you in the dugout?

Bye John.

 

[Rasputin]

I didn't see the game, WTF happened with Miley?

 

[soxhop411]

“@brianmacp: ”I just wanted to stay in the game and correct it. That was what I was most frustrated about.“ — Miley, last Sept. 9 http://t.co/8m2nNh7kP4”

 

[soxhop411]

“@brianmacp: (So this isn’t the first time Miley has gotten fired up at his manager — something the Red Sox had to have known when they acquired him.)”

 

[moondog80]

I didn't see the game, WTF happened with Miley?

Started yelling at Farrell upon being informed that he would not be going back out to start the 5th.

 

[AimingForYoko]

I didn't see the game, WTF happened with Miley?

Wright warming hurt his feelings.

 

[Rasputin]

Started yelling at Farrell upon being informed that he would not be going back out to start the 5th.

 
You know, I like it when players fight to be on the field, but for fuck's sake, don't do it in the goddamn dugout.

 

[E5 Yaz]

John Tomase ‏@jtomase  41m41 minutes ago
Eck on Miley blowing up in the dugout at Farrell: "Are you on acid?!?"

 

[jimbobim]

 
John Tomase ‏@jtomase  41m41 minutes ago
Eck on Miley blowing up in the dugout at Farrell: "Are you on acid?!?"
 

Eck saying what I presume Farrell said in the hallway 
 
https://twitter.com/SurvivingGrady/status/609180383792484352

 

[lexrageorge]

How is this not 100% on Miley?  Seriously, if Miley wants to stay in the game, then someone needs to tell him not to give up 3 HR's in 4 innings.  

 

[teddywingman]

How is this not 100% on Miley?  Seriously, if Miley wants to stay in the game, then someone needs to tell him not to give up 3 HR's in 4 innings.  

It's not about percentages of who is at fault.

 

[BroodsSexton]

Here's the link from mlb.  Miley should go play some video games.

 

[jasail]

How is this not 100% on Miley?  Seriously, if Miley wants to stay in the game, then someone needs to tell him not to give up 3 HR's in 4 innings.  

 
This blow up is on Miley. However, there is blood lust in the air and those that want JF's job in someone else's hands are going to use this as an example of how he can't manage his players, which is supposed to be his strong suit as a manger. I wouldn't bat an eye if they fired JF tomorrow, as he's been at the helm for 9 straight months of abysmal, fundamentally unsound and uninspired baseball. However, I don't think this one is on him.

 

[teddywingman]

The Eck clip of "You just got your lunch..." is goddamn hilarious though.
It almost makes this manure pile season worth watching.

 

[KillerBs]

I loved the way Farrell walked Miley down the tunnel. Now he should send him to pen.

 

[teddywingman]

 
This blow up is on Miley. However, there is blood lust in the air and those that want JF's job in someone else's hands are going to use this as an example of how he can't manage his players, which is supposed to be his strong suit as a manger. I wouldn't bat an eye if they fired JF tomorrow, as he's been at the helm for 9 straight months of abysmal, fundamentally unsound and uninspired baseball. However, I don't think this one is on him.

I'll admit to being in the Fire JF camp; but I've been there since the start.
The 2013 World Series was reached despite of him--though something devine occured and he managed that series flawlessly. (or the Cardinals just started to suck CO2)

 

[JohntheBaptist]

The 2013 World Series was reached despite of him--though something devine occured and he managed that series flawlessly. (or the Cardinals just started to suck CO2)

 

 

[teddywingman]

Hey! That dude looks just like me.

 

[catomatic]

I've always thought he was a terrible in-game manager, but his ability to manage players outweighed the occasional bone headed decisions.

But now a dink like Wade Miley feels comfortable enough to be screaming at you in the dugout?

Bye John.

This is exactly why I cringed as I watched that clip. I didn't like seeing John follow him down the tunnel either. Just let him go. Who cares if he's mad at you, let him figure it out for himself at his locker why he's no longer welcome on the mound. That looked weak in both respects.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

I don't understand why Miley's exhibition puts Farrell on the hot seat. Farrell didn't make the decision to acquire Miley. What's he supposed to do? 
 
This, like so much else, is on Ben.
 
Or, what brimac said. 

 

[catomatic]

I don't understand why Miley's exhibition puts Farrell on the hot seat. Farrell didn't make the decision to acquire Miley. What's he supposed to do? 
 
This, like so much else, is on Ben.
 
Or, what brimac said. 

Because that outburst—the fact that Miley felt he could go ahead and throw a fit at his manager on TV—undermines one of the sole remaining attributes people still attach to Farrell as a manager, which is that he's a leader of men and respected by his players. And then he follows him kinda sheepishly—to my eyes anyway—down the tunnel. Yes, it's on Ben, but failing GMs have been known to try to save their own jobs by changing shit up—especially if there's a sense that people might be ready for it. That kind of dugout BS gets people ready for it.

 

[Bigpupp]

6/10 - "This team needs to show some emotion! They're dead out there!"

6/11 - "I can't believe he would show emotion like that! And on TV too!"


They're grown men. They can have a disagreement with emotion and still be fine. If it becomes a trend then them yelling at each other is probably the least of our worries.

 

[catomatic]

6/10 - "This team needs to show some emotion! They're dead out there!"

6/11 - "I can't believe he would show emotion like that! And on TV too!"


They're grown men. They can have a disagreement with emotion and still be fine. If it becomes a trend then them yelling at each other is probably the least of our worries.

I'll assume you're quoting somebody else—someone who actually called for more emotion. "Disagreement with emotion" is a fine way of obscuring the fact that a pitcher who just got absolutely shellacked by the 5th inning feels within his rights to challenge the authority of his boss in front of everyone. It doesn't support the idea that he sufficiently fears or respects that authority as one would hope. There's not much good to take away from that "disagreement with emotion" in my view. But we'll see, won't we.

 

[dcmissle]

I hope anyone advancing the "outburst" as the last straw was 100% behind Francona getting whacked. Cause this crew is the Prussian Army compared to the players responsible for that historic dumpster fire.

I was not in favor of a managerial change then, nor am I now.

 

[Harry Hooper]

I loved the way Farrell walked Miley down the tunnel. Now he should send him to pen.

 
Sox should send Miley to AAA for a couple of weeks.

 

[SemperFidelisSox]

I trust Farrell handled this situation behind closed doors after the game. A couple F bombs and a handshake between player-manager should be enough to put this behind them.

I also trust that the other players won't look at this minor incident as an opening to go all Helter Skelter on Farrell and rebel. I understand the 'sharks smell blood' argument when a clubhouse might perceive a manger as weak and attack, but there's no way in hell ownership will let this clubhouse fall into chaos again. Farrell still has the support of Henry and the players...for now.

 

[Kilgore A. Trout]

Let's not blow this whole thing out of proportion.  This wasn't Billy Martin vs. Reggie Jackson part deux.  Miley had a bad night, so was pissed and when you're pissed you don't exhibit good judgement.  He shoulda been pulled from the game and as soon as he calmed down I bet you anything he would 100% agree.  He's not going down to AAA and this was not a reflection on whatever is right or wrong about Farrell as manager.  Miley will apologize publicly, and Farrell will say its over.  It was a bad, frustrating night, and considering how the various parts of this team have been taking turns letting the other parts of this team down, it was bound to happen sooner or later.

 

[Chief_Macho]

I trust Farrell handled this situation behind closed doors after the game. A couple F bombs and a handshake between player-manager should be enough to put this behind them.

I also trust that the other players won't look at this minor incident as an opening to go all Helter Skelter on Farrell and rebel. I understand the 'sharks smell blood' argument when a clubhouse might perceive a manger as weak and attack, but there's no way in hell ownership will let this clubhouse fall into chaos again. Farrell still has the support of Henry and the players...for now.

Really?   I feel bad for Farrell.  He looked impotent.  I don't think this was a big deal,  but it sure as hell will be made to look like one.  And in Red Sox world,  perception is reality.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Really?   I feel bad for Farrell.  He looked impotent.  I don't think this was a big deal,  but it sure as hell will be made to look like one.  And in Red Sox world,  perception is reality.

 
Keeping his head and moving on didn't make him look impotent. Screaming back at Miley would have made him look like a clown