JD Davison, 2nd round pick

TripleOT

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JDD with double figure turnovers. Probably his worst game ever. Hopefully he will turn it around in SL game 3. He has a full year of G League experience running a team. Davison should be one of the better players there.
 

Cellar-Door

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Seems like a waste honestly. Hopefully that’s proven wrong, but it’s hard to see the potential with this guy. Summer league success doesn’t mean you’ll be a star, but you’d like to see at at least some success in this level of competition.
he's young, plus it's one of three 2-ways we have to offer, most 2-way guys stink, Davison is at least young.
 

benhogan

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Young & useless isn't really something this team needs on a two-way.

Yam and Begarin hold more promise. If you're going to roll the dice may as well be on some young European

I like the days when Brad was getting guys like Sam Hauser on a two-way. Then turning them into useful bench players, on a super cheap contract, after 1 season in Maine.
 

Cellar-Door

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Young & useless isn't really something this team needs on a two-way.

Yam and Begarin hold more promise. If you're going to roll the dice may as well be on some young European

I like the days when Brad was getting guys like Sam Hauser on a two-way. Then turning them into useful bench players, on a super cheap contract, after 1 season in Maine.
Yam and Begarin are better off in Europe developing against arguably better competition than the G-League, in a league where games have stakes, and not starting the contract clock (so if one does get to NBA quality you can use his draft rights to sign him to a 4 year deal).

Two ways are basically just about control, none of them should really play in the NBA for much time. The Celtics are so good, and pretty deep so the 2 ways are about cycling guys who might make the bench in a couple years. Davison is a guy they think might have upside based on athleticism.
 

benhogan

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Yam and Begarin are better off in Europe developing against arguably better competition than the G-League, in a league where games have stakes, and not starting the contract clock (so if one does get to NBA quality you can use his draft rights to sign him to a 4 year deal).

Two ways are basically just about control, none of them should really play in the NBA for much time. The Celtics are so good, and pretty deep so the 2 ways are about cycling guys who might make the bench in a couple years. Davison is a guy they think might have upside based on athleticism.
Exactly, if you going to play the 2nd round lottery ticket game on 19yr olds you're better off with European-based players. That way the Celtics aren't wasting their cheap/controlled years in Maine development.

Being a contender, the Celtics are better off using 2nd round picks & 2-ways on more seasoned/higher floor rookies.
 

Cellar-Door

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Exactly, if you going to play the 2nd round lottery ticket game on 19yr olds you're better off with European-based players. That way the Celtics aren't wasting their cheap/controlled years in Maine development.

Being a contender, the Celtics are better off using 2nd round picks & 2-ways on more seasoned/higher floor rookies.
Davison was the #53 pick, by that point in most drafts there is nothing left in the International guys. Honestly there was nothing much there. As to two-ways... they're mostly not NBA players either way, I don't see a problem with using 1 of the 3 on a young guy you think has upside.

I think you're addressing two different things here...
1. How to use your 2nds
2. How to use your two-ways.

I think with 2nds you have to be flexible, depending where you are in the draft, the best option may be a stash, or it may be a 1 skill low ceiling guy, or it might be "these guys all suck now, so grab me the guy who has the most potential to be something someday"

For two-ways... I think you should use 1 on a high upside lotto pick, and one on a guy who is closer to being an NBA rotation player.
 

benhogan

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This all pertains to the Celtics & where they are as a team.
1. If they sucked, I'd want them to play the lottery/development game with lots of draft picks.
2. Being Championship contenders I'm happy that Brad moves first-round picks for NBA players that contribute (Horford, White, Brogdon). In that same vane, I'd rather see them use their 2nd round picks & their 2-ways for more seasoned players.

Put it this way I expect #58 Trayce Jackson-Davis will add more short & long-term value than #53 JD Davison (who has already burned a year) ever will.
 

lexrageorge

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This all pertains to the Celtics & where they are as a team.
1. If they sucked, I'd want them to play the lottery/development game with lots of draft picks.
2. Being Championship contenders I'm happy that Brad moves first-round picks for NBA players that contribute (Horford, White, Brogdon). In that same vane, I'd rather see them use their 2nd round picks & their 2-ways for more seasoned players.

Put it this way I expect #58 Trayce Jackson-Davis will add more short & long-term value than #53 JD Davison (who has already burned a year) ever will.
I think last season it was fine to pick a boom/bust type player in JDD, given the flotsam that was available at #53. The extra 2-way roster spot is a freebie, so there is a literally zero downside to giving Davison another season; putting butts in seats in Maine has some value.

Most of the 2nd round picks that they do indeed make going forward will be swings-and-misses. So may as well mix in some low-floor/high-ceiling players with some high-floor/low-ceiling and see what comes out. Stevens already went in your desired direction in this year's draft.
 
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Eddie Jurak

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Seems like a waste honestly. Hopefully that’s proven wrong, but it’s hard to see the potential with this guy. Summer league success doesn’t mean you’ll be a star, but you’d like to see at at least some success in this level of competition.
JDD with double figure turnovers. Probably his worst game ever. Hopefully he will turn it around in SL game 3. He has a full year of G League experience running a team. Davison should be one of the better players there.
Summer league is a messy level of play with every player focused on individual play to try to catch the eye of a team. As Celtics summer league teams go, this one is pretty devoid of talent. It's not a shock that you would see a non-scorer PG struggle in this kind of situation.

JDD is what he is (a longshot) but we always knew that. Giving him a 2-way spot is fine. Obviously Celtics management likes having him around.
Two ways are basically just about control, none of them should really play in the NBA for much time. The Celtics are so good, and pretty deep so the 2 ways are about cycling guys who might make the bench in a couple years. Davison is a guy they think might have upside based on athleticism.
Yep. Recent Celtic 2-way players:
  • Kabangele
  • Davison
  • Ryan
  • Thomas
  • Waters
  • Fall
  • Dozier
  • Hunter
  • Bird
  • Allen
Davison generally fits in with this crowd.
 

benhogan

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Summer league is a messy level of play with every player focused on individual play to try to catch the eye of a team. As Celtics summer league teams go, this one is pretty devoid of talent. It's not a shock that you would see a non-scorer PG struggle in this kind of situation.

JDD is what he is (a longshot) but we always knew that. Giving him a 2-way spot is fine. Obviously Celtics management likes having him around.

Yep. Recent Celtic 2-way players:
  • Kabangele
  • Davison
  • Ryan
  • Thomas
  • Waters
  • Fall
  • Dozier
  • Hunter
  • Bird
  • Allen
Davison generally fits in with this crowd.
We shouldn't really care all that much about a 10-turnover game in the SL from Davison. We could see after a season in the G-league JD was TO-prone in a league that hasn't really built its reputation on defensive discipline. We're all hoping he does well, but you're probably right that he is heading down your ignominious list of Celtic G-Leaguers.

Sam Hauser is a 2nd/UDRFA on a 2-way/G-League development success story. So Boston can do it.

Begarin/Madar have been somewhat successful 2nd round picks since someone else is paying for their development & their NBA clocks haven't started. When/If they come over their bodies should be even more developed & they should be more skilled, so we won't burn years waiting for that.
 

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I share everyone's concern that the shot and the handle don't project well now. The latter is pretty frustrating, since he's getting picked by SL players. It wasn't just game 2 either. But his athleticism still stands out. He's shifty, and he's faster than everyone else out there. Once he gets a little savvy near the rim, he could make a leap (i.e., when those become layups instead of sent back at him). The savvy could come with more experience. The handle...that's just going to take some work (and experience). He has the tools, and guys with his physical profile can become NBA players. Bit of a tight needle to thread, but not impossible.

If we need him this year beyond the occasional spot call-up, it's not a good sign for the team.
 

NomarsFool

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They really designed those uniforms so that everyone in the cheap seats can see which team is which and what their numbers are, didn’t they?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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JD named player of the week. Good chance he's in the running for G League MVP when all is said and done.

View: https://twitter.com/MaineCeltics/status/1734668743790170368?s=20
6-11 from 3P is encouraging but I still have to wonder if he'll get his shot off in the NBA.

Here are some highlights from the week. First 3P is around the 2:00 mark; there looks to be one-pull up and 3P that the announcer described as a "step-back" but if it was a step, it was a little itty-bitty step.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D85oa0HAfw
 

JakeRae

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6-11 from 3P is encouraging but I still have to wonder if he'll get his shot off in the NBA.

Here are some highlights from the week. First 3P is around the 2:00 mark; there looks to be one-pull up and 3P that the announcer described as a "step-back" but if it was a step, it was a little itty-bitty step.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D85oa0HAfw
He’s shooting 35% on the year, but remains a 70% FT shooter, so all signs point to him being not very good at shooting the basketball. The turnovers also remain high. On the other hand, his usage is way up with no drop off in efficiency. He’s definitely taken a big step forward this year but he probably needs one more big step forward to be an NBA player.
 

Imbricus

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One positive is that he looks slimmer now than in summer league, when he seemed a bit chunky.
 

benhogan

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One positive is that he looks slimmer now than in summer league, when he seemed a bit chunky.
Yea, he looks much leaner. If he gets jitterbug quick he could help an NBA team (although PP has that role on the C's now). While it may sound unrealistic, he needs to win multiple Players of the Week at the G-league level over the next couple of months. Then he may get a look at a tanker that trades for JDD.

He should watch Ish Smith video, that feels like his ultimate ceiling.
 

lovegtm

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Yea, he looks much leaner. If he gets jitterbug quick he could help an NBA team (although PP has that role on the C's now). While it may sound unrealistic, he needs to win multiple Players of the Week at the G-league level over the next couple of months. Then he may get a look at a tanker that trades for JDD.

He should watch Ish Smith video, that feels like his ultimate ceiling.
These trades of promising GLeaguers for real value are pretty rare.

If the guy looks good, you sign him in RFA to a very cheap deal, which is more valuable to a contender than a tanker (see the Nuggets hoarding older 2nd round types as they get expensive).

If the guy doesn't pop, no one is trading value for him.
 

benhogan

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These trades of promising GLeaguers for real value are pretty rare.

If the guy looks good, you sign him in RFA to a very cheap deal, which is more valuable to a contender than a tanker (see the Nuggets hoarding older 2nd round types as they get expensive).

If the guy doesn't pop, no one is trading value for him.
He has very little salary value (same with Walsh, Begarin, Madar).

With the position the Celtics are in cap-wise, it kind of goes without saying, that any mention of him in a trade is strictly as a sweetener/part of a larger package
 

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I still think he can be an Ish Smith type, just more athletic. He HAS to look for his shot at the nba level though, or he won’t make it.
 

benhogan

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I still think he can be an Ish Smith type, just more athletic. He HAS to look for his shot at the nba level though, or he won’t make it.
Yea, it's almost irrelevant what he does in the G-League. He won't be playing or looking for his SHOT in Boston. The same applies to Jordan Walsh.

If they pop down there, they become worth slightly more than filler in a multi-player/staple salaries together Brogdon-style trade.

Banton, Brissett, Queta, Svi, and Stevens are fighting it out for scraps of NBA minutes and a multi-year, minimum, NBA gtd contract for next season.

I'd be willing to bet that 19-20yr olds figuring it out in Maine will have no place in a Celtics rotation for the next half-decade. Its also why I'd rather have them draft upperclassmen in the 2nd round (ie Trace Jackson-Davis) going forward
 

HomeRunBaker

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Yea, he looks much leaner. If he gets jitterbug quick he could help an NBA team (although PP has that role on the C's now). While it may sound unrealistic, he needs to win multiple Players of the Week at the G-league level over the next couple of months. Then he may get a look at a tanker that trades for JDD.

He should watch Ish Smith video, that feels like his ultimate ceiling.
A poor man's Ish Smith without the ball security, veteran savvy or decision making. Yikes. Maybe someone will give him some 10-days at the end of the season once Boston moves on from him but I'd be polishing up that resume highlighting G-League awards for his agent to get him a good overseas deal.
 

Leon Trotsky

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A poor man's Ish Smith without the ball security, veteran savvy or decision making. Yikes. Maybe someone will give him some 10-days at the end of the season once Boston moves on from him but I'd be polishing up that resume highlighting G-League awards for his agent to get him a good overseas deal.
Can guys like JD hang around long enough for the inevitable expansion? Maybe Lebron will take him for back of bench in Vegas, or he can be one of the new Sonics?
 

HomeRunBaker

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Can guys like JD hang around long enough for the inevitable expansion? Maybe Lebron will take him for back of bench in Vegas, or he can be one of the new Sonics?
If they can get into the league like say Ish did then yeah....but if they are on the outside looking in there is a new batch of younger PGs that teams would more likely take shots on. I don't really rate him as an NBA player but if one works hard enough and sticks around long enough to get an opportunity you never know. It certainly won't be in Boston though.
 

Eddie Jurak

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His lob-throwing is certainly at an NBA PG level. I wonde rif he is a guy who has to go overseas for a few years to figure out the rest of it.
 

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Yea, it's almost irrelevant what he does in the G-League. He won't be playing or looking for his SHOT in Boston. The same applies to Jordan Walsh.

If they pop down there, they become worth slightly more than filler in a multi-player/staple salaries together Brogdon-style trade.

Banton, Brissett, Queta, Svi, and Stevens are fighting it out for scraps of NBA minutes and a multi-year, minimum, NBA gtd contract for next season.

I'd be willing to bet that 19-20yr olds figuring it out in Maine will have no place in a Celtics rotation for the next half-decade. Its also why I'd rather have them draft upperclassmen in the 2nd round (ie Trace Jackson-Davis) going forward
I thought the new CBA will preclude the Celts from parking in any such aggregation trades for the foreseeable future.
 

benhogan

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I thought the new CBA will preclude the Celts from parking in any such aggregation trades for the foreseeable future.
Here are some trigger dates:
1. Some aggregation cap rules start for teams over the 2nd apron after the 2023-24 season
2. From July-Dec 15 no aggregation Brogdon style

https://www.sportsbusinessclassroom.com/understanding-trade-matching-in-the-new-collective-bargaining-agreement/

After the final day of the 2023-24 regular season, over-apron franchises cannot use prior-generated trade exceptions. And those above the second apron (projected at $179.5 million for 2023-24) won’t even have a taxpayer mid-level exception, can’t get a player back in return for one going out via sign-and-trade, won’t be able to send out cash in trade and can’t even aggregate contracts.

One area of flexibility was tightened for deals above the salary cap (which doesn’t apply each year from December 15 to the trade deadline), preventing teams from throwing in extra minimum contracts to make a deal’s math work. It had become a semi-common practice for franchises to sign players at a non-guaranteed minimum before the end of a season to generate potential outgoing salary in July.

From July to December 15, if the number of aggregating players going out is larger than the number coming back, only one minimum contract can be included in that aggregation. This would prevent the practice that the Boston Celtics used with Nik Stauskas, Malik Fitts and Juwan Morgan to acquire Malcolm Brogdon from the Indiana Pacers. The rule allows a team to send out two minimum contracts (exclusively) in aggregation.
 

lovegtm

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Yup, tldr is that, starting tomorrow, the Celtics get one more shot at min contract aggregation (or any aggregation for awhile, barring a Jaylen trade).
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Here are some trigger dates:
1. Some aggregation cap rules start for teams over the 2nd apron after the 2023-24 season
2. From July-Dec 15 no aggregation Brogdon style

https://www.sportsbusinessclassroom.com/understanding-trade-matching-in-the-new-collective-bargaining-agreement/

After the final day of the 2023-24 regular season, over-apron franchises cannot use prior-generated trade exceptions. And those above the second apron (projected at $179.5 million for 2023-24) won’t even have a taxpayer mid-level exception, can’t get a player back in return for one going out via sign-and-trade, won’t be able to send out cash in trade and can’t even aggregate contracts.

One area of flexibility was tightened for deals above the salary cap (which doesn’t apply each year from December 15 to the trade deadline), preventing teams from throwing in extra minimum contracts to make a deal’s math work. It had become a semi-common practice for franchises to sign players at a non-guaranteed minimum before the end of a season to generate potential outgoing salary in July.

From July to December 15, if the number of aggregating players going out is larger than the number coming back, only one minimum contract can be included in that aggregation. This would prevent the practice that the Boston Celtics used with Nik Stauskas, Malik Fitts and Juwan Morgan to acquire Malcolm Brogdon from the Indiana Pacers. The rule allows a team to send out two minimum contracts (exclusively) in aggregation.
That article was written in May 2023. I think it is not correct.

Beginning at the end of this basketball year, as I understand it, teams over the 2nd apron cannot aggregate salaries at all. See https://theathletic.com/5021179/2023/11/03/nba-cba-second-apron-clippers-warriors-celtics-bucks/. "Starting next summer, those front offices will no longer be able to aggregate salaries (combining a few different players to match the salary for a more expensive one)."

So Cs will be able trade a player for one or more players making on the aggregate less than that player but cannot do the reverse. Which is why the trades for Jrue's and KP's salary slots were important beyond just basketball reasons - they'd never be able to get those slots if they didn't consolidate multiple players into a higher salary slot this summer.
 

benhogan

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That article was written in May 2023. I think it is not correct.

Beginning at the end of this basketball year, as I understand it, teams over the 2nd apron cannot aggregate salaries at all. See https://theathletic.com/5021179/2023/11/03/nba-cba-second-apron-clippers-warriors-celtics-bucks/. "Starting next summer, those front offices will no longer be able to aggregate salaries (combining a few different players to match the salary for a more expensive one)."

So Cs will be able trade a player for one or more players making on the aggregate less than that player but cannot do the reverse. Which is why the trades for Jrue's and KP's salary slots were important beyond just basketball reasons - they'd never be able to get those slots if they didn't consolidate multiple players into a higher salary slot this summer.
Agree with this, but not sure the article is wrong

Mostly was just trying to answer Saints' question about the Celtic's aggregating now, which they can

Being a 2nd apron team, the Celtics won't be able to aggregate after this season
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Agree with this, but not sure the article is wrong

Mostly was just trying to answer Saints' question about the Celtic's aggregating now, which they can

Being a 2nd apron team, the Celtics won't be able to aggregate after this season
I didn't realize you were talking about this year.

Correct, Cs can theoretically aggregate this year but they don't really have the salary structure to do it. I mean they aren't getting rid of Al for any reason so they don't really have any contracts to trade.
 

benhogan

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I didn't realize you were talking about this year.

Correct, Cs can theoretically aggregate this year but they don't really have the salary structure to do it. I mean they aren't getting rid of Al for any reason so they don't really have any contracts to trade.
Al is a steal at $10MM and I hope they extend him this summer. He can be KP's caddy for the next 3 seasons
 

lovegtm

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I mean they aren't getting rid of Al for any reason so they don't really have any contracts to trade.
One important nit to pick here: from now until the trade deadline, they can aggregate as many minimum contracts as they want, so they can actually match some pretty decent salaries, if they want to go that route and throw in 2nds or the 2024 1st.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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One important nit to pick here: from now until the trade deadline, they can aggregate as many minimum contracts as they want, so they can actually match some pretty decent salaries, if they want to go that route and throw in 2nds or the 2024 1st.
True but it's harder to do multiple players for one trades now because teams already have full rosters and the Cs would be hard-pressed to find decent guys to fill out their bench. Harder but certainly as you point out not impossible this year.

Obviously the trade exception means that they don't have to aggregate salaries to get to 6.3M and then the other decent trade asset they have is the ability to re-sign Blake and include him this year.
 

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JD up to 40% shooting from three on pretty high volume, still only 14 games though.
He was 29% in 26 games last year so the truth is probably somewhere in the middle but it’s an encouraging data point for sure. Begarin seems to keep getting worse on that front so I’ll gladly take some good news with Davison, even on a SSS.
 

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TripleOT

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JDD is second in the G in assists, at 8.7 apg, and is hitting 40% of his threes, the two things about his game that were deficient coming out of college, in running a team and hitting threes. He just turned 21. It’s unfortunate for him that he happens to be on a team with a loaded roster and championship aspirations. If he was on a Wizards roster, I don’t see why he couldn’t be playing rotation minutes with his competitiveness and athletic ability.
 

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It is always hard to know how much to read into G League production.

With bigs, G League stats are nearly meaningless. Maybe they are a little more valuable for ballhandlers and wings?
 

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It is always hard to know how much to read into G League production.

With bigs, G League stats are nearly meaningless. Maybe they are a little more valuable for ballhandlers and wings?
They're not really meaningful for anyone. What's interesting is if the guy is developing skills that are translatable to the league, especially ones that he didn't have before.

When they drafted Tremont Waters, he went to the G league and immediately started jacking bad shots. Maybe he would have done that at the end of a bad team's NBA bench too, but he lost the ability to facilitate whatsoever and became a worse player. If JD works on his weaknesses, maybe he turns into something. Not here of course, because he's still miles from breaking a rotation on a contender. But if he takes more leaps, I could see him sneaking on an NBA team next year or the year after.
 

benhogan

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True but it's harder to do multiple players for one trades now because teams already have full rosters and the Cs would be hard-pressed to find decent guys to fill out their bench. Harder but certainly as you point out not impossible this year.

Obviously the trade exception means that they don't have to aggregate salaries to get to 6.3M and then the other decent trade asset they have is the ability to re-sign Blake and include him this year.
I don't expect Brad to do a Brogdon-style deal, headlined by PP + deep bench minimums, BUT why does it matter if other NBA rosters are full?

The minimums would be filler & cut by the receiving team, right? Or if JDD or Walsh was included (& seen as an asset) the receiving team would cut some of their end-of-bench fodder.

OR is there some new CBA rule in play here?

There have been some Celtic/Isaiah Stewart rumors which is Detroit's feeble efforts to quickly unload that extension. He would have been a nice in-season pick-up if he wasn't gtd $64MM this past summer.
 

lexrageorge

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I don't expect Brad to do a Brogdon-style deal, headlined by PP + deep bench minimums, BUT why does it matter if other NBA rosters are full?

The minimums would be filler & cut by the receiving team, right? Or if JDD or Walsh was included (& seen as an asset) the receiving team would cut some of their end-of-bench fodder.

OR is there some new CBA rule in play here?

There have been some Celtic/Isaiah Stewart rumors which is Detroit's feeble efforts to quickly unload that extension. He would have been a nice in-season pick-up if he wasn't gtd $64MM this past summer.
I think the issue is that the receiving team could have some deep bench players they may not want to cut as a result of a trade that nets them the Celtics deep bench and/or two-ways.
 

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I think the issue is that the receiving team could have some deep bench players they may not want to cut as a result of a trade that nets them the Celtics deep bench and/or two-ways.
wouldn't the receiving team just cut the Celtics' filler?

Guess the downside is the cut players would count toward the receiving team's year-end cap. Most teams are tight cap-wise & if you're a seller you want those year-end Golden State payouts.

Believe Luke, Queta, Stevens, and Brissett have shown enough to be Boston's #3-6 string Centers
but Brad/Zarren probably have something up their sleeves.