Jaylen Brown - underrated?

TripleOT

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Jaylen ran close with Bouye in the second race, even though he didn't know the proper stance to get off the line quickly. Very impressive. Bouye has run a 4.45,
 

Dernells Casket n Flagon

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Jaylen ran close with Bouye in the second race, even though he didn't know the proper stance to get off the line quickly. Very impressive. Bouye has run a 4.45,
Actually the four point stance is absolutely the best for getting off the line in a race quickly which is why you see it used in every sprinting race ever.
 

JCizzle

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So with Tatum leading the team in scoring last night and being a stud, Jaylen is again being overshadowed a bit. Aside from ending Embiid's career, how did people think he looked? Switching between the Sox and C's made it hard to key in on him and spot any improvements to his handle or passing.

 

luckiestman

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So with Tatum leading the team in scoring last night and being a stud, Jaylen is again being overshadowed a bit. Aside from ending Embiid's career, how did people think he looked? Switching between the Sox and C's made it hard to key in on him and spot any improvements to his handle or passing.


I thought he looked like shit, tbh. I’m hoping it was just a mediocre game and he gets into the swing of things.
 

thehitcat

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I thought he looked like shit, tbh. I’m hoping it was just a mediocre game and he gets into the swing of things.
It came up in the game thread but I think it needs to be reiterated here. I am tired of him getting fouled nearly every time he cuts to the hoop or elevates without there being a single call. You'd look like shit too if every player on the other team could hack you or step through you with impunity every time you put the ball on the floor or launched to the basket. His three ball didn't fall but other than that I thought he played pretty well offensively through all of the contact.

If someone would like to criticize his D I didn't watch that as closely because I was flying to catch up to live on DVR after the Sox game and didn't watch all of the Philly possessions in the first half.
 

amarshal2

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He looked rusty — which is to say worse than in last years playoffs. It was a bit of a contrast to last year where he came out right away and looked light years better than the previous year.

Let’s give him a week or two before we judge if he made another offseason leap. After that he’ll hopefully have 75 games to grow as a player before the playoffs.
 

luckiestman

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It came up in the game thread but I think it needs to be reiterated here. I am tired of him getting fouled nearly every time he cuts to the hoop or elevates without there being a single call. You'd look like shit too if every player on the other team could hack you or step through you with impunity every time you put the ball on the floor or launched to the basket. His three ball didn't fall but other than that I thought he played pretty well offensively through all of the contact.

If someone would like to criticize his D I didn't watch that as closely because I was flying to catch up to live on DVR after the Sox game and didn't watch all of the Philly possessions in the first half.

I guess it comes down to how you evaluate his ability/instinct/decision making with respect to playing through or dealing with contact. If it’s all the refs fault and he was mugged, I guess he played fine. I thought he was making some poor choices. I don’t want to give him too many insults because I’m a huge fan.
 

luckiestman

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He looked rusty — which is to say worse than in last years playoffs. It was a bit of a contrast to last year where he came out right away and looked light years better than the previous year.

Let’s give him a week or two before we judge if he made another offseason leap. After that he’ll hopefully have 75 games to grow as a player before the playoffs.

This is more diplomatic but I think we saw the same thing. I’m by no means down on him.
 

Jimbodandy

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I thought that he looked fine at both ends. He's not the kind of shot creator that Tatum is. There will be more ebb and flow from game to game, depending on what the defense is giving him. Definitely worth giving him at least a handful of games before drawing any conclusions.
 

nighthob

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I thought that he looked fine at both ends. He's not the kind of shot creator that Tatum is. There will be more ebb and flow from game to game, depending on what the defense is giving him. Definitely worth giving him at least a handful of games before drawing any conclusions.
This is a fair evaluation. He isn't a primary scorer and not likely to ever be one. He has some upside to create offense for himself, but he's clearly better playing off of other players. I was probably more down on him than most on draft night (I think only Bowiac thought worse of him than I did, luckily we were both wrong), but he's exceeded my expectations.

We're spoiled by Tatum, but really with Tatum and Irving in the fold, we really only need for Brown to be an effective catch & shoot guy (and he's well on his way there) and improve his finishing. That last is really the one area where he should (and I think will) be better. He's too big and athletic to finish so softly.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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His three ball didn't fall but other than that I thought he played pretty well offensively through all of the contact.
He is currently tied for sixth in the league in 3P% so one of his three-balls fell.

I thought he looked fine. He went strong to the hoop and didn't finish a few times but (i) it's early; (ii) PHI is pretty long; and (iii) he didn't get as many calls as he might have.

He's still really good on defense, although Reddick gave him problems using Embiid's screens. That's one thing BOS doesn't really have on defense - someone who is going to chase a shooter around a bunch of screens. JB's a little big to be doing that.

He tried driving baseline and dishing the ball to the opposite corner a couple of times; I know one of which ended up in a TO but one that ended in a good shot.
 

thehitcat

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I guess it comes down to how you evaluate his ability/instinct/decision making with respect to playing through or dealing with contact. If it’s all the refs fault and he was mugged, I guess he played fine. I thought he was making some poor choices. I don’t want to give him too many insults because I’m a huge fan.
I think we're all fans of his. Every time someone here or in the media posits yet another trade for Kawhi/Butler/AD and includes Jaylen I shudder a little because I don't want to let him go. I just wanted to specifically call this(the constant mugging) out because it seemed more egregious last night than in my memory of last year. We agree that he can still work on his game, that his instincts can be spotty and that he sometimes makes a boneheaded play but I love his effort, tenacity and fearlessness and I really want to see him explode here in Boston even if it's as Pippen to Tatum's Jordan.
 

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I was at the game near a baseline, so I saw half of the game really well and the other half was invisible because of an idiot in front of me who felt compelled to stand up whenever something exciting happened, such as a Celtic touching a basketball. In the 50% of the game I saw really well, I thought he looked fine. The whole team looked rusty, it wasn't peculiar to JB.
 

bakahump

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I too am not down on him. He will be a REALLY good complimentry piece. (say a #3 or #4 on a stacked team).

I dont think he is there yet. But thats where I put his ceiling.

What I cant get is how an otherwise very talented BB player can lose the handle on dunks so often. Last year I spoke about hand size and found that he was not exceedingly small. But damn everything flies ut of his hand. Not just last night but last year as well.
He made it work on the Embiid "Layup" and Maybe its the being fouled with impunity. But if he could improve on finishing I would be a much bigger fan.
 

bosox79

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There were a couple of times last game Jaylen could have dunked the ball with both hands but decided not to, resulting in a change of possession.
 

mcpickl

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I'd really like to see him work on scoring in the post.

I don't think he's ever going to be a primary ball handler, so most of his scoring will be on catch and shoot threes, and drives.

If he could add post scoring to that, he'd get more opportunities than he will with his current skill set. He's almost always going to be guarded by a smaller guy. If he could consistently bully his guy under the hoop and get easy buckets, the opponent would always have to send help and he'd have a wide open three point shooter for a kick out pass. On this team, that's likely to be a 40% shot.

He'd have to work on his free throw shooting too since he'd be getting fouled a lot.

Think if he doesn't add a few more tools to the box, he'll end up being a really high level role player here. That's a great thing to be, but he's surely looking to be more than that.
 

Big John

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I want to see him become a true lockdown defender at three positions. He's got the athleticism.
 

TripleOT

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Jaylen has been horrible the first five games. It looks like he's rushing his scoring opportunities. I thought he had things figured out by the end of last season.
 

joe dokes

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Jaylen has been horrible the first five games. It looks like he's rushing his scoring opportunities. I thought he had things figured out by the end of last season.
End of last season there was no Irving, no Hayward, and a not-quite otherworldly Tatum.
There are only two players who look totally unaffected by the new dynamic. Tatum, who is better than last year. And Morris, who is the exact same guy (more often than not for the better, but occasionally not).

Game 19 is the day after Thanksgiving. Game 33 is Christmas. I think that will be the stretch where they reach cruising altitude. Until then, I expect 10-8 or 9-9.
 

TripleOT

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Game 19 is the day after Thanksgiving. Game 33 is Christmas. I think that will be the stretch where they reach cruising altitude. Until then, I expect 10-8 or 9-9.
Even with the struggles, I don't see this team losing 8 games out of 18. As we saw at OKC, if they play defense consistently, all they have to do is put together eight good minutes of offense and close a game strong and they can win, even on a night where they look horrible for a lot of the game.

And as soon as Kyrie shakes off the rust, they will have their closer again. I'm hoping that will be around game 8.
 

jmm57

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So.....what is going in here?

My favorite Celtic, but man this is rough.
 

Deathofthebambino

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So.....what is going in here?

My favorite Celtic, but man this is rough.
I thought he played well early on the defensive end, and at least 4 of his missed 3's tonight were literally off the back rim. His shot actually looks fine, they just aren't going down. The one he did make he was kind of rushed, as the shot clock was winding down, and he buried it. The others were all wide open, good looks, and he was an inch or two strong. Contrast that to Rozier who is hitting the backboard, the side of the rim, the shot clock, etc.

The whole team is just lacking confidence, especially Jaylen. Brad just needs to figure it out, because the rotations he's using every night are simply not working.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I feel our entire starting unit is guilty of this. They are trying to find a balance between selflessness and aggression which results in uncertainty (and thinking) in a game of reaction.
Agree.

The other thing JB needs is a "go to" move - he needs to dind the spot or spots on the floor he knows he can score on anyone and then start creating countermoves off of that.
 

benhogan

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One of my favorite games of the season last night. BUT I'm going to throw a little cold water on the short-handed Celts win over the Pels.

Jaylen Brown's final line looks solid but he really didn't get going until the Celtics were up 16pts with 7:15 mins left. He scored 11 (3/3 3PT) of his 19pts to end the game.

I re-watched the game and his first half was rough. Jaylen's first 13 touches on offense produced one pass. He either hoisted a contested jumper or put his head down and drove. No kick outs or passes to a cutting teammate, Jaylen getting his. Then the Celtics had those last 2 possessions in the first half where he pounded the ball and then threw it away to a wide open MaMo (shot clock expired). Then he completely blundered the final play of the half (Smart and Rozier were hot).

His mentality going into the game might have been that he was Option 1 and 1A on offense, with 4 rotation players out. I'll stay optimistic that coming off the bench he'll get plenty of shots, AND we won't see him anywhere near the starting or closing unit.
 
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Deathofthebambino

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I agree with your analysis on the offensive end last night, but defensively, he was great from start to finish. That's why he he was positive in plus/minus the entire game, and ended up a +11 (third on the team behind Time Lord and Tatum +13, and tied with Morris). He was fighting through picks as well as I've seen him do all year, rotating and helping all over the place, and covering 2-3 positions at different times. I've always said that's the end of the floor where Jaylen's most value is, but it's so much harder to quantify.

Offensively, I thought even the jumpers he missed early, his shot looked better, two were right off the back rim again, and then when he found his shot, I think he buried the last 3 in a row that he took. I also want him driving to the hoop more, and getting more calls, even if the shots aren't falling, rather than constantly kicking out to Rozier/Smart/Theis, so we can watch them brick a 3. I'll take this Jaylen over what we saw pre-injury every day of the week.
 

Koufax

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Thanks for posting this. Marcus Smart comes across as more thoughtful and wiser than his playing style suggests. Very interesting piece.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Long Jackie Mac piece on Jaylen, early struggles, moving to the bench, and more:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25502202/jaylen-brown-new-journey-why-important-boston-celtics-nba

Lots of good quotes from Jaylen, Kyrie, Brad, Smart, Ainge, etc.
Thanks for posting.

Glad to hear Stevens speak the truth about “individual” defensive stats and how they should be interpreted in conjunction with traditional evaluations.

Coach Brad Stevens, who puts great stock in analytics, says Brown's offense will come, and his current defensive numbers don't tell the whole story. "We're asking Jaylen to guard a lot of different guys at a lot of different positions, from Tim Hardaway with the Knicks to Blake Griffin on a day-to-day basis," Stevens says. "Within all of our schemes, with all the things we've been doing, I actually think Jaylen's gotten better. He's doing a lot of different things, both on and off the ball. That's why I don't get caught up too much in the individual defensive numbers."
 

the moops

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If someone rates as one of the worst, or one of the best, in a particular defensive metric - it may not mean that they are as good or as bad as the metric shows, but it is very rare for it to be completely opposite of what is being shown. So while Jaylen may not be actually the 23rd worse defender in the league, it is doubtful that he was performing as an above average defender in those first 20 games
 

lexrageorge

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I kind of read Brad Stevens' comment to mean a combination of (a) it is indeed correct that individual defensive stats over 20+ games don't tell the entire story due to a lack of context; and (b) him trying to publicly pump up his talented but young player a little bit. A kinder, gentler way of saying: "Yes, Brown has struggled, but he's not the only reason we've struggled as a team. And we have every reason to expect improvement from him going forward, an improvement that is already underway".
 

InstaFace

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Good managers will keep their criticism private, and defend or praise their team members in public. Brad Stevens is a good manager. Whatever he thinks for-realsies about Brown's performances recently, relative to last June, I assume we'll never catch him saying it to anyone outside the Celtics' house. Likewise the anodyne quotes from Ainge:

"I'm not worried about Jaylen at all," Ainge says. "He's a terrific player. Give me 80 games. I might care by the time we get to the playoffs, but the kid is 22 years old with a ton of upside. The criticism has been ridiculous."
The quotes from Kyrie, Smart etc are all surprising but they're also categorically different from Stevens saying anything like that. And frankly, I think Kyrie's quotes are perfect peer-leadership material:

"I have such high expectations for a guy like Jaylen, knowing how smart he is off the court, knowing his intellect, how he likes to be challenged," Irving says. "On the court, you just know there's so much more for him. You can see how much better he can get.

"I don't think Jaylen has ever been challenged in this way. When you're challenged sometimes, and you've been only doing it for three years, you can question a lot of things. You question yourself, and your confidence wavers because everything you've been doing up to this point has worked. You're used to doing little things to get you out of a rut, but suddenly that's not happening.

"You find yourself in a situation where every single day you are demanded to be great. That's a hard journey for anybody in this league, and to have that much talent and not be able to showcase it, I'm sure it is tough on him.

"I definitely understand it. I'm empathetic, and I'm also patient."

But he's also unafraid, he says, to get in Brown's grille: "I think he deserves that. In my career, I've had the opportunity to play with another great player who demands greatness out of you every single day. That comes with certain expectations. Sometimes you don't know exactly what those expectations are until you experience them. And that's what Jaylen is dealing with now.

"It's not about how many shots he's making or percentages or stats or anything like that. Now it's about, 'How do you get out of your own way to become the best version of yourself in an environment with other great players?' You're not in an environment where we can wait around for you. You're not surrounded by decent players who you will automatically play over, no matter how you perform. Now you have to work because other guys are putting in their work, trying to accomplish a goal bigger than themselves.

"The beautiful thing about Jaylen is he's smart enough to figure this out. He's in a transitional year."
He goes on, further, about his own accountability and leadership. Let us never again question the public eloquence or basic EQ of Kyrie Irving.
 

chilidawg

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If someone rates as one of the worst, or one of the best, in a particular defensive metric - it may not mean that they are as good or as bad as the metric shows, but it is very rare for it to be completely opposite of what is being shown. So while Jaylen may not be actually the 23rd worse defender in the league, it is doubtful that he was performing as an above average defender in those first 20 games
I don't know what stat has him as 23rd worse, but DRPM puts him 11th best among shooting guards.
 

lovegtm

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If someone rates as one of the worst, or one of the best, in a particular defensive metric - it may not mean that they are as good or as bad as the metric shows, but it is very rare for it to be completely opposite of what is being shown. So while Jaylen may not be actually the 23rd worse defender in the league, it is doubtful that he was performing as an above average defender in those first 20 games
I read it as the Celtics stretching him defensively, in the same way you'll give a young guy more offensive load to force him to expand his game, even if it's not optimal for that particular game.
 

the moops

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I don't know what stat has him as 23rd worse, but DRPM puts him 11th best among shooting guards.
It was in the linked Jackie piece (I misread it as DRPM - my bad)

When the season's first Real Plus-Minus ratings were released, Brown ranked 417th out of 430 players

There was also this
Defensively, the numbers also dipped. Per Second Spectrum, among the 204 players to defend at least 20 direct isolations, Brown was tied for 150th, at 1.04 points per direct iso defended.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I read it as the Celtics stretching him defensively, in the same way you'll give a young guy more offensive load to force him to expand his game, even if it's not optimal for that particular game.
Exactly! Players individual numbers are often a product of their role and how well it fits their game and/or exposes them to show their weaknesses.

This is why Baynes' numbers are so good in that Brad can easily spot him his minutes against matchups that fit his skillset. Doc did this during Big Baby and Powe's years here and it's been done forever with reserve in this league (especially bigs). It is also why a player like Lonzo Ball is being scrutinized while really being forced to play a role that exploits pretty much every flaw he has while limiting him from utilizing his strength. So much more to player evaluation than raw numbers even if they are analytically based.