Is Messi the GOAT?

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

I'm not a soccer fan except for when I watch the World Cup, so I don't know enough about the leagues, etc.

But does Mbappe have a chance at this title in the future? I thought I saw a stat that he is only 1 goal behind Messi in World Cup play (13-12) and only 4 back of the all time record of 16. And he just turned 24, like yesterday. He was certainly the best player I noticed throughout the tournament, but again, I'm a complete novice.

He probably won't get there but he has as much of a chance as anybody will ever have. As you note, his international accomplishments are already insane and he will very likely end up the highest ever World Cup scorer and possibly end up on the very short list of players to win multiple World Cups and the even shorter list who played in three finals.

But club soccer is the highest level of competition in the world from a quality of play standpoint and he has a lot of catching up to do there. He has been fantastic at club level too but he hasn't yet played in one of the very best leagues, he hasn't won the Champions League, and he also hasn't won the biggest individual award (the Balon d'Or), which takes into account both international and club performances. Messi was a dominant player on one of the best clubs in the world for nearly 15 years, won three Champions Leagues, and 7 Balon d'Or. Mbappe might not need to match that but he'd have to at least come close - like multiple CL titles and 4-5 Balon d'Or awards - for it to even be a debate.

The 2023 Balon d'Or will take into account this past World Cup and will almost certainly come down to Mbappe v Messi, with their club performances decisive. Which is all the more crazy because they are teammates.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

He probably won't get there but he has as much of a chance as anybody will ever have. As you note, his international accomplishments are already insane and he will very likely end up the highest ever World Cup scorer and possibly end up on the very short list of players to win multiple World Cups and the even shorter list who played in three finals.

But club soccer is the highest level of competition in the world from a quality of play standpoint and he has a lot of catching up to do there. He has been fantastic at club level too but he hasn't yet played in one of the very best leagues, he hasn't won the Champions League, and he also hasn't won the biggest individual award (the Balon d'Or), which takes into account both international and club performances. Messi was a dominant player on one of the best clubs in the world for nearly 15 years, won three Champions Leagues, and 7 Balon d'Or. Mbappe might not need to match that but he'd have to at least come close - like multiple CL titles and 4-5 Balon d'Or awards - for it to even be a debate.

The 2023 Balon d'Or will take into account this past World Cup and will almost certainly come down to Mbappe v Messi, with their club performances decisive. Which is all the more crazy because they are teammates.

Again, I'm like a 3 year old child with this stuff, so take these questions how they're intended.

Why are they not playing in the top league? Did Messi drop down because of age? Why hasn't Mbappe moved up there? Is it a money or geography thing?

I have never even heard of the Balon D'or until now. Just looked it up. Seems like Messi and Ronaldo both won their first at age 23. Mbappe just turned 24, so if he wins this year, and eventually makes the move to the CL, he would seem to have a chance?

Of course, it's like saying Aaron Judge has the chance to break Barry Bonds home run record, long way to go..

 

[SoxFanInCali]

Again, I'm like a 3 year old child with this stuff, so take these questions how they're intended.

Why are they not playing in the top league? Did Messi drop down because of age? Why hasn't Mbappe moved up there? Is it a money or geography thing?

I have never even heard of the Balon D'or until now. Just looked it up. Seems like Messi and Ronaldo both won their first at age 23. Mbappe just turned 24, so if he wins this year, and eventually makes the move to the CL, he would seem to have a chance?

Of course, it's like saying Aaron Judge has the chance to break Barry Bonds home run record, long way to go..

PSG is in the French League, they are owned by the Qataris, and pay their players an obscene amount of money for them to essentially focus on the Champions League (as the French league is almost an afterthought). Messi played for Barcelona in Spain for most of his career but they ran into serious financial issues during the pandemic and let him leave. Mbappe, as great as he's been, has never played in any other league other than the French one. Real Madrid has tried to sign him a few times, and it looked like it was going to happen last offseason, until the Qataris added another couple zeros to his salary.

The French League is definitely considered a second tier league below England, Spain, Italy, and even Germany.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

PSG is in the French League, they are owned by the Qataris, and pay their players an obscene amount of money for them to essentially focus on the Champions League (as the French league is almost an afterthought). Messi played for Barcelona in Spain for most of his career but they ran into serious financial issues during the pandemic and let him leave. Mbappe, as great as he's been, has never played in any other league other than the French one. Real Madrid has tried to sign him a few times, and it looked like it was going to happen last offseason, until the Qataris added another couple zeros to his salary.

The French League is definitely considered a second tier league below England, Spain, Italy, and even Germany.

Appreciate it, thank you guys. I guess it would be fun to see what Mbappe could do in the CL at some point.

 

[67YAZ]

View attachment 59163

Let's see Messi do that!

As soon as Messi comes to MLS, he'll have the chance to snort a line with Cher on Friday night and score a match-winner on Saturday afternoon.

 

[Kliq]

There's not THAT big of a difference between Ligue 1 and La Liga imo. La Liga has Real and Barca on one level, Atletico on another, then a bunch of teams that are a dozen tax brackets down. PSG is in a class by itself in France, but the advantage PSG has over its Ligue 1 opponents isn't that much greater than the advantage Barca had over its La Liga opponents when Messi was there.

 

[wonderland]

Appreciate it, thank you guys. I guess it would be fun to see what Mbappe could do in the CL at some point.

Mark your afternoon calendar for Tuesday February 14 and Wednesday, March 8. PSG is playing Bayern Munich in the champions league round of 16. Munich looks to attack, attack, attack so PSG will have some space to operate.

 

[ifmanis5]

As soon as Messi comes to MLS, he'll have the chance to snort a line with Cher on Friday night and score a match-winner on Saturday afternoon.

Fair. Pics or it didn't happen though.

 

[BrazilianSoxFan]

Someone upthread mentioned career v. talent and this guy immediately sprung to mind, and I hadn't seen him mentioned yet.

If it's only about talent, you should watch more highlights of the guy who gave the assist to Messí's first goal.

Ronaldinho was absurd.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dBz4dTZocg

 

[Zomp]

Talent wise, Ronaldinho in his first few seasons at Barca is the best I’ve seen. Though I’m admittedly looking at it with the perspective of that’s when I fell in love with the game and it overcame all other sports as my number 1 to follow. That, the joga bonito ads, and the birth of highlight videos popping up on some fad website called YouTube all attributed to my fandom.

 

[BrazilianSoxFan]

And just gonna leave this here:

View: https://youtu.be/sYokNMEgRvw?t=20


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VbZmkfelfw

 

[SocrManiac]

I haven’t seen enough of Mbappe to feel I know him well. How much of his game relies on his speed and first step? If he doesn’t have a strong backup plan to that won’t he burn hot and flame out?

 

[BrazilianSoxFan]

One thing to keep in mind is that Red and Yellow cards were only used for the first time at the 1970 World Cup. Defenders were a lot more vicious during Pelé's career.

Disregard the clickbait title, but in this video you will see things that just aren't done on today's game and were the standard way defenders faced him. Portugal defensive strategy in '66 was basically to foul him out of the Cup, which they did.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8GdiMW4BL8

 

[Jimy Hendrix]

Appreciate it, thank you guys. I guess it would be fun to see what Mbappe could do in the CL at some point.

I think there might be a mild misconception here judging from a few of these comments, so I'll clarify something and my apologies if this is already stuff you already know.

Champion's League is a tournament featuring the top 2 - 4 teams from the best European domestic leagues and the champions of other, smaller European domestic leagues. Mbappe does in fact play in this tournament, as his team (Paris Saint-Germain) are the champions of the French league.

When people ding Mbappe for the league he's playing in, they do so because the French league is considered to be the worst of what people generally call the "big 5" leagues, which are England, France, Italy, Germany and Spain. Which of those leagues are stronger than which can change based on the financial fortunes and/or sports decisions of the clubs in them, but during the past 5 years which are Mbappe's career to date, the order has tended to be as follows.

England, with the richest league and thus top to bottom the strongest league. Then Spain, Germany, and Italy in some order. Then France, as the big 5 league a cut below the rest of them. People definitely dispute that ordering, we've seen a bit in this thread, but it's generally accepted more often than not.

So Mbappe does play in the CL (and well so far, 40 goals in 60 games is a solid return although less impressive than Messi's 129 in 161), but week to week he plays on a superteam in a domestic league that people respect less than other options and he does so because he is being given an absolutely massive bag by the Qatari goverment who run PSG.

 

[BrazilianSoxFan]

This may help in regards to the Champions League:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=504tvtRVWss

 

[allstonite]

I haven’t seen enough of Mbappe to feel I know him well. How much of his game relies on his speed and first step? If he doesn’t have a strong backup plan to that won’t he burn hot and flame out?

I haven’t seen a lot of him either and don’t know a lot about tactics but from what I saw in the World Cup and especially the final, I don’t think he’ll flame out quickly. His speed is obviously incredible and he torched more than a few fullbacks. However, I saw a lot of instances of him dribbling through traffic and trying to pick out a pass in the box. If he can improve passing/crossing accuracy I think he’ll be fine once he loses a step. He looks like he has an awareness of where everyone is around him and where space will open up but he can’t always get the ball there (probably because he hasn’t had to yet).

Depending on how well he takes care of himself as he ages and loses that early 20s invincibility and metabolism, I think his game will age gracefully. He’ll play like he has been for a few more years and then move into a different type of role and remain elite, if not always top 2 player in the world. Just one opinion from a soccer dummy but he really impressed me in this tournament with more than just his speed

Edit: To keep on topic, yes I think Messi is the GOAT

 

[loshjott]

I think there might be a mild misconception here judging from a few of these comments, so I'll clarify something and my apologies if this is already stuff you already know.

Champion's League is a tournament featuring the top 2 - 4 teams from the best European domestic leagues and the champions of other, smaller European domestic leagues. Mbappe does in fact play in this tournament, as his team (Paris Saint-Germain) are the champions of the French league.

When people ding Mbappe for the league he's playing in, they do so because the French league is considered to be the worst of what people generally call the "big 5" leagues, which are England, France, Italy, Germany and Spain. Which of those leagues are stronger than which can change based on the financial fortunes and/or sports decisions of the clubs in them, but during the past 5 years which are Mbappe's career to date, the order has tended to be as follows.

England, with the richest league and thus top to bottom the strongest league. Then Spain, Germany, and Italy in some order. Then France, as the big 5 league a cut below the rest of them. People definitely dispute that ordering, we've seen a bit in this thread, but it's generally accepted more often than not.

So Mbappe does play in the CL (and well so far, 40 goals in 60 games is a solid return although less impressive than Messi's 129 in 161), but week to week he plays on a superteam in a domestic league that people respect less than other options and he does so because he is being given an absolutely massive bag by the Qatari goverment who run PSG.

Thanks for that explanation.

 

[lars10]

I think there might be a mild misconception here judging from a few of these comments, so I'll clarify something and my apologies if this is already stuff you already know.

Champion's League is a tournament featuring the top 2 - 4 teams from the best European domestic leagues and the champions of other, smaller European domestic leagues. Mbappe does in fact play in this tournament, as his team (Paris Saint-Germain) are the champions of the French league.

When people ding Mbappe for the league he's playing in, they do so because the French league is considered to be the worst of what people generally call the "big 5" leagues, which are England, France, Italy, Germany and Spain. Which of those leagues are stronger than which can change based on the financial fortunes and/or sports decisions of the clubs in them, but during the past 5 years which are Mbappe's career to date, the order has tended to be as follows.

England, with the richest league and thus top to bottom the strongest league. Then Spain, Germany, and Italy in some order. Then France, as the big 5 league a cut below the rest of them. People definitely dispute that ordering, we've seen a bit in this thread, but it's generally accepted more often than not.

So Mbappe does play in the CL (and well so far, 40 goals in 60 games is a solid return although less impressive than Messi's 129 in 161), but week to week he plays on a superteam in a domestic league that people respect less than other options and he does so because he is being given an absolutely massive bag by the Qatari goverment who run PSG.

Also to add for Dotb: (Country/League/Traditional top clubs)
England - Premiere League - Manchester City, Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Tottenham (in no particular order.. Man City has dominated the past few years, before that it was Chelsea, before that it was Manchester United.. Liverpool and Arsenal have also usually been in the top 4.. Tottenham has been in the top four as of late)
Germany - Bundesliga - Bayern Munich (has pretty much dominated the last 20-30 years...they've won the league 31 times..no other team has one more than 5), Borussia Dortmund, Borussia Monchengladbach, Werder Bremen, VfB Stuttgart, Bayern Leverkusen
Italy - Serie A - Juventus, Inter Milan, AC Milan.... Roma, Lazio - First three have basically won everything - Roma and Lazio have won one each in the 2000s
Spain - La Liga - Barcelona, Real Madrid, Atlético Madrid.. basically with those three teams you can account for the last 30 years.. those three clubs have been 72 of the 91 league champion..with Barcelona and Real Madrid accounting for 61 of those.. their two games are usually the best games of the year 'El Classico'
France - Ligue 1 - Paris Saint-Germaine (PSG), Monaco, Lyon, Lille account for most of the titles in the past 20 years.. PSG have won 8 of the last 10 league titles, Lyon had a very good run in the early 2000s winning 7 titles from 2002-2008.

Other leagues that have a few noteworthy teams:
Netherlands - Eredivisie - Ajax, PSV Eindhoven, Feyenoord
Scotland - Scottish Premiership - Celtic, Rangers

The top league of each country is sort of fluid.. in that the bottom teams are relegated every season (drop down to the next league below) and the top teams in the lower league are promoted (this is at least true of England.. I'm less familiar with other leagues)

 

[coremiller]

I'm not a soccer fan except for when I watch the World Cup, so I don't know enough about the leagues, etc.

But does Mbappe have a chance at this title in the future? I thought I saw a stat that he is only 1 goal behind Messi in World Cup play (13-12) and only 4 back of the all time record of 16. And he just turned 24, like yesterday. He was certainly the best player I noticed throughout the tournament, but again, I'm a complete novice.

Mbappe has a good chance to be the best player in the world for several years, but he's a long way from GOAT status. His game is also built around his explosive pace and athleticism, which are not skills that tend to age well. He will need to adapt and develop his game a bit as he ages. Messi and Ronaldo both did this, but many do not. And of course he'll have to stay healthy -- OG Ronaldo might have ended up as the GOAT if he hadn't wrecked his knee at age 22.

Mbappe, as an athletic, explosive wide forward with a great shot, is also an evolutionary version of a familiar type: the younger Cristiano Ronaldo, Gareth Bale, Thierry Henry, just to name a few, had somewhat similar styles. Whereas Messi is a unicorn: there just haven't been, and aren't likely to be, any other left-dominant 5'6" dribbling and shooting savants who also have superior passing technique and vision. The only guy Messi's game remotely resembles is Maradona. Maradona was perhaps even more talented on the ball than Messi, but I think Messi in his prime was faster and more athletic (Messi had the speed to play as a winger when he first broke in). And Messi has the huge advantage of not being a gluttonous cokehead -- Maradona was washed up by 30 despite playing in a less physically demanding era, while Messi has taken care of himself and is still the best player in the world, or close to it, at 35.

 

[BrazilianSoxFan]

Mbappe has a good chance to be the best player in the world for several years, but he's a long way from GOAT status. His game is also built around his explosive pace and athleticism, which are not skills that tend to age well. He will need to adapt and develop his game a bit as he ages. Messi and Ronaldo both did this, but many do not. And of course he'll have to stay healthy -- OG Ronaldo might have ended up as the GOAT if he hadn't wrecked his knee at age 22.

Mbappe, as an athletic, explosive wide forward with a great shot, is also an evolutionary version of a familiar type: the younger Cristiano Ronaldo, Gareth Bale, Thierry Henry, just to name a few, had somewhat similar styles. Whereas Messi is a unicorn: there just haven't been, and aren't likely to be, any other left-dominant 5'6" dribbling and shooting savants who also have superior passing technique and vision. The only guy Messi's game remotely resembles is Maradona. Maradona was perhaps even more talented on the ball than Messi, but I think Messi in his prime was faster and more athletic (Messi had the speed to play as a winger when he first broke in). And Messi has the huge advantage of not being a gluttonous cokehead -- Maradona was washed up by 30 despite playing in a less physically demanding era, while Messi has taken care of himself and is still the best player in the world, or close to it, at 35.

Another way you could look at it is that Maradona had all his talent and success without the physical gift of Messi's speed. But Maradona only got slow when he got old.

 

[Dummy Hoy]

If it's only about talent, you should watch more highlights of the guy who gave the assist to Messí's first goal.

Ronaldinho was absurd.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dBz4dTZocg

I'm quite familiar. That's a good shout though- he's like a much much much uglier modern Best in a lot of ways.

 

[jon abbey]

Came across this thread from 2020, we already voted Messi first then.

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/the-soccer-goat-cast-your-vote.31305/

 

[67YAZ]

Revisiting that thread, Beckenbauer got a lot more love

 

[jon abbey]

Revisiting that thread, Beckenbauer got a lot more love

That's actually why I searched, as he was another one I saw some of the tail end of his career live with the Cosmos, and I was wondering where he was ranked by the knowledgable. Somewhere between 5-10 maybe?

So crazy that the Cosmos had Pele as well as the last two captains of World Cup winning teams (Alberto and Beckenbauer) at the same time, they were like three levels better than anyone else in the NASL most years.

 

[Titans Bastard]

For the newer fans, it's also worth pointing out that although there is a largely agreed-upon pecking order of leagues, there is an overlap in the quality of clubs across the leagues.

Ligue 1 (France) is the consensus fifth best league in Europe, but a decent chunk of the teams in the league are still better than the worst teams in some of the other Big Five leagues.

The Portuguese league is extremely top-heavy. Their "big three" clubs of Benfica, Porto, and Sporting would be competitive in most/all of the Big Five leagues, but the lesser clubs in Portugal would get crushed in the Spanish league.

I guess it's not that different from differing conferences in college sports. If the SEC is the best in college football, it doesn't at all mean that every SEC team is better than every team in other big conferences. And in basketball, you are going to get some Gonzagas in small conferences that can compete with almost anyone even though their conference is weak.

 

[67YAZ]

 

[candylandriots]

Also, RE: Cruyff, you can't discount the Cruyff Turn. You can't say he invented it because it's a dribble move, so who knows, but he undeniably popularized it at the 1974 World Cup. In terms of influence on a sport, it's like if the Euro Step was credited to a basketball player named John Euro.

Fun fact - my last name is shared with the most famous move in team handball.

 

[candylandriots]

The old National Lampoon magazine had a Sports issue in the mid 70's, in which they gave spoof histories of the major sports. My alcoholic, degenerate gambler Uncle Tommy would get comics for me when he bought his Oui and High Society mags, and he'd get me National Lampoon also.* I found this issue online during the Winter Olympics because I wanted to show my wife & kid the BOBSLEDDING article which started: "If you own a roller coaster, and are careful not to let anyone else use it, you are probably the second or third best roller coaster racer in the world. Similarly, if you own a bobsled run and a bobsled...."

Omg, this is so close to the truth that I can't stop laughing about it.

 

[Philip Jeff Frye]

I saw the short-lived and nearly-totally-unlamented Connecticut Bicentennials play in front of a Yale Bowl crowd that was maaaaayybe 3% of capacity. You could not only hear the shouts of players in the field, but conversations on the bench.

I had the same experience. The high school band that made up the half time entertainment might have been more than half the crowd.

 

[Mr. Stinky Esq.]

This may help in regards to the Champions League:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=504tvtRVWss

I was following along with this video until he noted Pulisic is from Hershey Pennsylvania while a graphic showed the State of Ohio.

 

[Nick Kaufman]

Is soccer now more competitive than it was 30-40 years ago? It seems like a sport whose athletes aren’t necessarily greater than in other eras or bigger and faster like in American football, but as a casual observer, it also seems like Africa and Latin America are sending more players and teams than when some of the old greats were playing, which should favor modern players like Messi in the goat conversation.

A modern middling club team would be at the very least be competititive if not crash a top club or national team of the 60s or 70s. Everything from conditioning to technical skill has improved across the board.

 

[Zososoxfan]

Mbappe has a good chance to be the best player in the world for several years, but he's a long way from GOAT status. His game is also built around his explosive pace and athleticism, which are not skills that tend to age well. He will need to adapt and develop his game a bit as he ages. Messi and Ronaldo both did this, but many do not. And of course he'll have to stay healthy -- OG Ronaldo might have ended up as the GOAT if he hadn't wrecked his knee at age 22.

Mbappe, as an athletic, explosive wide forward with a great shot, is also an evolutionary version of a familiar type: the younger Cristiano Ronaldo, Gareth Bale, Thierry Henry, just to name a few, had somewhat similar styles. Whereas Messi is a unicorn: there just haven't been, and aren't likely to be, any other left-dominant 5'6" dribbling and shooting savants who also have superior passing technique and vision. The only guy Messi's game remotely resembles is Maradona. Maradona was perhaps even more talented on the ball than Messi, but I think Messi in his prime was faster and more athletic (Messi had the speed to play as a winger when he first broke in). And Messi has the huge advantage of not being a gluttonous cokehead -- Maradona was washed up by 30 despite playing in a less physically demanding era, while Messi has taken care of himself and is still the best player in the world, or close to it, at 35.

I'd have to go back and watch Henry highlights (twist my arm), but he actually may be a really good comp for Mbappe if he was a speed merchant in his earlier days. Because my memories of Henry are more France NT and Barca, where he was a super technical winger with supreme finishing skill, and guile to spare. Early Bale may be a good shout too, but the way he bulked up a la Jordan probably means their trajectories aren't too similar. CR7 may be a good comp too, but I think Mbappe is just even more direct than CR7. That may not be the best distinguishing factor, but in my mind they're fairly different even if I can't articulate exactly why.

One other note re Maradona. Yes, he was a man who enjoyed his vices, but he also played during a brutal period of the sport and took way more shots than Messi is ever allowed to. Messi now gets butter soft calls, but when he was a young whippersnapper embarrassing world class defenders multiple times over every time he touched the ball, players would consistently try to clear him out. Mourinho's Madrid tried desperately in vain to hurt Messi (vis-a-vis Pepe) for years, to minimal effect (Messi did have 1 or 2 injury plagued seasons before he himself got insanely strong). All that said, Maradona still took way more physical punishment than any player, especially a star player like him, does nowadays.

 

[dirtynine]

For the newer fans, it's also worth pointing out that although there is a largely agreed-upon pecking order of leagues, there is an overlap in the quality of clubs across the leagues.

Ligue 1 (France) is the consensus fifth best league in Europe, but a decent chunk of the teams in the league are still better than the worst teams in some of the other Big Five leagues.

The Portuguese league is extremely top-heavy. Their "big three" clubs of Benfica, Porto, and Sporting would be competitive in most/all of the Big Five leagues, but the lesser clubs in Portugal would get crushed in the Spanish league.

I guess it's not that different from differing conferences in college sports. If the SEC is the best in college football, it doesn't at all mean that every SEC team is better than every team in other big conferences. And in basketball, you are going to get some Gonzagas in small conferences that can compete with almost anyone even though their conference is weak.

Also worth noting that big, big money has changed the landscape quickly. As recently as the early 2000s, most clubs were owned by locals or firms in their countries with some kind of attachment to the team. The richest club was Barcelona which was operated as a fan trust / sporting club (kind of like Green Bay). They were so rich and proud they didn’t even sell a shirt sponsorship.

But as clubs came to be seen as shrewd investments, toys for oligarchs, and opportunities to “sportswash”, huge capital entered the system in the form of foreign investment backed by big oil and sovereign wealth. This really started in the aughts. In England, Chelsea went from an underachieving club with a bit of 70s glory to a juggernaut powered by Russian oil money. Manchester City, the perpetual little brother to Manchester United, and a club who was no stranger to the lower leagues (having been promoted and relegated a few times in its history) was transformed by UAE investment into possibly the most dominant club in the world. This pushed other clubs with pedigrees but actual spending limits (Arsenal, Tottenham, Everton, Newcastle, even Man U) down a notch or two, and the knock-on effect even helped push some the traditional mid-tier clubs like Portsmouth and Blackburn and Bolton down into lower league purgatory. Even Barca (different league, but peers to the best clubs in Europe) couldn’t keep up and resorted to getting a shirt sponsor.

There’s no way to win a top league (a lightning-in-a-bottle season like Leicester had a few years ago notwithstanding) without big money now. But with some combination of money, good coaching and smart player development/acquisition, it’s possible to succeed for a time. Liverpool has some money (for now, via John Henry), great coaching and a good eye for players. This helped them put together a run at/near the top of the league and a Champions League title over a few years. Now they’re aging out and restructuring a bit, and maybe it’s Arsenal’s turn to fill this role for a time. Meanwhile Man City and Chelsea just reload by splashing unlimited cash at anyone and stay right at the top every year. Man United today is a weird case of strange owners (Glazers), desperate coaching/management, and inconsistent strategy. They have an amazing pedigree but not unlimited sovereign money, so they’re not really the best any more - or more, they can’t as easily cover up their deficiencies the way the richest clubs can.

The minnows swim below in various stratas and with some good strategy and management can often punch above their weight (as Brighton has done recently). But Chelsea, City, etc will inevitably buy a club like Brighton’s best resources (players or coaches) and the best Brighton can do is accept that, scout and sign good players on cheap deals, get a few good seasons from them, make money on the transfers and re-invest. Mistakes on players don’t really matter for the rich clubs (just fix it with cash!) but below them clubs need to have near perfect strategies and hit rates on players to compete.

The real tough spot to be in is a club like Tottenham which has aspirations and expectations of competing at the highest levels, but not quite the capital to do so.

 

[BrazilianSoxFan]

A modern middling club team would be at the very least be competititive if not crash a top club or national team of the 60s or 70s. Everything from conditioning to technical skill has improved across the board.

We're getting old, 30-40 years ago are the 80's and 90's....

 

[Titans Bastard]

Also worth noting that big, big money has changed the landscape quickly. As recently as the early 2000s, most clubs were owned by locals or firms in their countries with some kind of attachment to the team. The richest club was Barcelona which was operated as a fan trust / sporting club (kind of like Green Bay). They were so rich and proud they didn’t even sell a shirt sponsorship.

But as clubs came to be seen as shrewd investments, toys for oligarchs, and opportunities to “sportswash”, huge capital entered the system in the form of foreign investment backed by big oil and sovereign wealth. This really started in the aughts. In England, Chelsea went from an underachieving club with a bit of 70s glory to a juggernaut powered by Russian oil money. Manchester City, the perpetual little brother to Manchester United, and a club who was no stranger to the lower leagues (having been promoted and relegated a few times in its history) was transformed by UAE investment into possibly the most dominant club in the world. This pushed other clubs with pedigrees but actual spending limits (Arsenal, Tottenham, Everton, Newcastle, even Man U) down a notch or two, and the knock-on effect even helped push some the traditional mid-tier clubs like Portsmouth and Blackburn and Bolton down into lower league purgatory. Even Barca (different league, but peers to the best clubs in Europe) couldn’t keep up and resorted to getting a shirt sponsor.

There’s no way to win a top league (a lightning-in-a-bottle season like Leicester had a few years ago notwithstanding) without big money now. But with some combination of money, good coaching and smart player development/acquisition, it’s possible to succeed for a time. Liverpool has some money (for now, via John Henry), great coaching and a good eye for players. This helped them put together a run at/near the top of the league and a Champions League title over a few years. Now they’re aging out and restructuring a bit, and maybe it’s Arsenal’s turn to fill this role for a time. Meanwhile Man City and Chelsea just reload by splashing unlimited cash at anyone and stay right at the top every year. Man United today is a weird case of strange owners (Glazers), desperate coaching/management, and inconsistent strategy. They have an amazing pedigree but not unlimited sovereign money, so they’re not really the best any more - or more, they can’t as easily cover up their deficiencies the way the richest clubs can.

The minnows swim below in various stratas and with some good strategy and management can often punch above their weight (as Brighton has done recently). But Chelsea, City, etc will inevitably buy a club like Brighton’s best resources (players or coaches) and the best Brighton can do is accept that, scout and sign good players on cheap deals, get a few good seasons from them, make money on the transfers and re-invest. Mistakes on players don’t really matter for the rich clubs (just fix it with cash!) but below them clubs need to have near perfect strategies and hit rates on players to compete.

The real tough spot to be in is a club like Tottenham which has aspirations and expectations of competing at the highest levels, but not quite the capital to do so.

The big foreign investment matters, but I'd argue the true genesis of the change goes back to two developments from the 1990s:

1) The explosion of TV money, which is what now separates the EPL from everyone else. In other leagues that do not have equitable distribution of revenue from TV money, it helps prop up the big clubs (like Real Madrid and Barcelona)

2) The Bosman ruling. This was basically the European soccer version of the end of baseball's reserve clause.

 

[dirtynine]

The big foreign investment matters, but I'd argue the true genesis of the change goes back to two developments from the 1990s:

1) The explosion of TV money, which is what now separates the EPL from everyone else. In other leagues that do not have equitable distribution of revenue from TV money, it helps prop up the big clubs (like Real Madrid and Barcelona)

2) The Bosman ruling. This was basically the European soccer version of the end of baseball's reserve clause.

Yeah, this is a very smart way to look at it. TV dollars and Bosman opened the door, and the oligarchs walked right in. And we haven't touched on Financial Fair Play (FFP), a more recent set of UEFA rules which aims to kinda, sorta put limits on spending (though it's pretty toothless in reality).

 

[coremiller]

The big foreign investment matters, but I'd argue the true genesis of the change goes back to two developments from the 1990s:

1) The explosion of TV money, which is what now separates the EPL from everyone else. In other leagues that do not have equitable distribution of revenue from TV money, it helps prop up the big clubs (like Real Madrid and Barcelona)

2) The Bosman ruling. This was basically the European soccer version of the end of baseball's reserve clause.

The other big development which happened about the time was the expansion of the Champions League beyond just the previous year's league winners. That allowed the top clubs to consistently qualify it every year, which boosted their spending power both overall and especially in comparison to their domestic competition who weren't in the CL.

 

[Dummy Hoy]

The other big development which happened about the time was the expansion of the Champions League beyond just the previous year's league winners. That allowed the top clubs to consistently qualify it every year, which boosted their spending power both overall and especially in comparison to their domestic competition who weren't in the CL.

Great point. It also had the side effect of killing domestic competitions that aren't as lucrative as simply qualifying for the CL

 

[Nick Kaufman]

I'm not a soccer fan except for when I watch the World Cup, so I don't know enough about the leagues, etc.

But does Mbappe have a chance at this title in the future? I thought I saw a stat that he is only 1 goal behind Messi in World Cup play (13-12) and only 4 back of the all time record of 16. And he just turned 24, like yesterday. He was certainly the best player I noticed throughout the tournament, but again, I'm a complete novice.

He's great now, but he relies too much on his speed and explosiveness to last past his 30s IMO.

 

[dirtynine]

...and to bring this all back to Messi - today, a 23-year old Messi would be targeted by Manchester City (like Haaland just was) instead of staying with or moving to Barcelona. Back then there was no higher tier than Barca. Now, there kind of is (but it's complicated and money is only one factor; Barca still has more prestige but it's a fluid equation).

 

[67YAZ]

On the other hand, we haven't yet seen Mbappe on a squad that is purposefully designed to maximize his skillset the way Messi and Ronaldo had in their prime years.

PSG's Galactico's approach has been pretty incoherent and seemingly always at odds with what their managers actually want to do on the pitch. Allowing Messi to move on and selling Neymar if they can would be the first steps towards moving Mbappe to a free center forward role with world-class players slotting into a 4-3-3 around him. Easier said than done...well, except if you have a bottom less wallet and a get-out-of-FFP-free card.

 

[coremiller]

One other note re Maradona. Yes, he was a man who enjoyed his vices, but he also played during a brutal period of the sport and took way more shots than Messi is ever allowed to. Messi now gets butter soft calls, but when he was a young whippersnapper embarrassing world class defenders multiple times over every time he touched the ball, players would consistently try to clear him out. Mourinho's Madrid tried desperately in vain to hurt Messi (vis-a-vis Pepe) for years, to minimal effect (Messi did have 1 or 2 injury plagued seasons before he himself got insanely strong). All that said, Maradona still took way more physical punishment than any player, especially a star player like him, does nowadays.

Maradona certainly took more punishment, but the game is much more physically demanding now. In part this is a consequence of the elimination of the backpass after Italia 90 -- the ball spends much more time in active play now, such that the endurance requirements are much greater. In part it's also a function of the better fitness and training methods. I don't think Maradona with the same lifestyle could have lasted in the current game nearly as long as he did in the 80s. Partying hard 3-4 nights a week, then sweating it all out on Thurs/Fri to get ready for Saturday's game just wouldn't work today. We've seen this with other top players who let their fitness dip even slightly -- they almost immediately lose their edge. Eden Hazard at Real Madrid or Ronaldinho post-2006 are good examples.

 

[Nick Kaufman]

Random Messi video I just came across.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bZQzPayuKU