Is Messi the GOAT?

jaba

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With today's result, the seemingly last argument against Messi being the GOAT is no longer relevant. But I understand there's a case to be made for others as the GOAT.
Let's hear them
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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it’s a difficult question because the global game has changed so much.

I’ve read about Everton’s victory in the 85 European Cup Winners Cup. They beat an Austrian side in the final and along the way beat Bayern Munich and sides from Czechoslovakia, Netherlands, and Ireland. They went into these games cold, knowing little about the opposition. Even Bayern, then as now one of the biggest clubs in the world, wasn’t a very well known quantity. There wasn’t the same kind of info like stats, video etc. There wasn’t widespread player and coach movement between countries, like now, so there wasn’t first hand knowledge among the players and staff. The Czech side might as well have been from the moon, to hear those Everton players tell it in 85.

Thats within Europe. Factor that x100 for players from South America etc. A few went to Europe and had well chronicled careers against known-quantity opposition but not like now. Brazil pressured Pele to stay home so there’s no telling what he might have done at Arsenal or Barcelona. Who knows what excellent players never got the exposure that they would get todayto get into the GOAT discussion.

moreover, the lack of player movement limited competition. Evertons Dixie Dean holds the England top flight record with 60 goals in 1927-28. Just as 1927 Babe Ruth never had to face black pitchers, which would have knocked his numbers down, Dean (not through horrendous injustice, but just because it wasn’t done back then) did not have to get past defenders and keepers from Germany Brazil etc.

Comparisons are tough as a result.

Nevertheless:

Yes.
 
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Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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You can always debate who was the most talented or best during their peak. Maradona would have a legitimate case in that regard - he was an insane player who carried both Argentina and Napoli to glory against the odds (and against more heralded opposition), before eating and snorting his way out of the game. But nobody can match Messi's individual and team accomplishments over a 15 year period and if he's behind Maradona on pure talent it is only by the slightest of hairs.
 

Kliq

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What we know is that Messi is the best player from an era where we know that players are going competing against the best competition. Really everything pretty much pre-2000 is almost impossible to compare. Domestic leagues were mostly made up of domestic talent, and the Champions League for most of its existence had a very different format. Messi's case is much easier to understand and we can point to him playing all of the best teams and players in the world and it's hard to argue against it. Even going back just a few decades and the game and competition is almost completely different.

One advantage Messi does have from playing in this era that is rarely talked about is that he played his entire career benefitting from a lopsided system where his team had a gigantic financial advantage over almost all of his opponents. In previous generations the gaps between the bigger clubs and the smaller clubs were not as significant, but Messi spent his entire club career on super teams that were expected to easily crush all of their opponents except for one domestic rival.

The only real argument against Messi is that there are players like Di Stefano, Puskas and Cruyff who were not only the best players of their day, but had a style and influence that really transcended and changed the game. It's hard for to really make that case in a significant way for Messi, other than the fact that he was really good and really famous.

Pele has a global status and enduring legacy that is hard to approach, but his club career is so different than Messi (mainly that he played a million exhibition games against European sides) that it really is foolish to compare them.
 

67YAZ

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Pele is the transcendent cultural icon. The timing of his career with the early years of televised sports fixed him in the world’s
imagination. His figure still shapes how the game is viewed today by billions, directly and indirectly.

Yashin revolutionized goal keeping.

Puskas revolutionized play making.

DiStefano blazed a trailed from South America and vaulted Madrid to the top of the club game, where they still reside today.

Eusebio blazed the trail for African football.

Cruyff was the best player of his era, revolutionized tactics while still a a player, and then overhauled the the club game as a manager & director. No one has had a bigger impact on the sport top to bottom.

Maradona was a supernova, probably the most technically gifted player to ever grace the game.

Ronaldo was the perfect player for 2.5 seasons (1996-1998) before the gods got jealous and cursed his body.

But Messi has dominated the sport since his first great season in 2008-2009, routinely winning trophies against the toughest competition at a time when the global talent pool is deeper and more specialized than ever. He has outlasted his greatest rival, Cristiano Ronaldo, and was almost always his better anyway. Messi’s body of work makes him the best to ever lace up boots.
 

jon abbey

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This seems like a good place to ask: Did anyone else here get to see the Cosmos of the late seventies play much? I was very young, just 8 or 9, but my dad and I had season tickets and went to every home game, Pele, Beckenbauer, Carlos Alberto, on and on. The atmosphere was incredible, one playoff game specifically is still maybe the most exciting live sporting event I've ever seen.
 

Marciano490

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Is soccer now more competitive than it was 30-40 years ago? It seems like a sport whose athletes aren’t necessarily greater than in other eras or bigger and faster like in American football, but as a casual observer, it also seems like Africa and Latin America are sending more players and teams than when some of the old greats were playing, which should favor modern players like Messi in the goat conversation.
 

lars10

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Is soccer now more competitive than it was 30-40 years ago? It seems like a sport whose athletes aren’t necessarily greater than in other eras or bigger and faster like in American football, but as a casual observer, it also seems like Africa and Latin America are sending more players and teams than when some of the old greats were playing, which should favor modern players like Messi in the goat conversation.
Watch clips from the 80s or 90s or before.. todays players are WAY faster and stronger.. the level of skill overall is also a lot better. It’s easier to see in person just how fast these guys are.. and they’re running for 90 minutes

Edit: I’d also add that the pitch/field quality overall has gotten a lot better.. there are a lot more soccer only stadia… lot more clubs, lot more academies.
 

teddykgb

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I think it’s really easy to forget how good Messi was because we have watched the slower, more static version for so long now. He, like Maradona, used to regularly dribble 3 and 4 defenders multiple times a match. These days that’s fewer and far between but to my eyes it’s very close between those two among players I’ve seen play and with Maradona I obviously saw him a lot less. I suspect Cruyff belongs in this conversation more than he is but players like him and Pele I can only have seen via highlights so it feels impossible
 

SoxFanInCali

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This seems like a good place to ask: Did anyone else here get to see the Cosmos of the late seventies play much? I was very young, just 8 or 9, but my dad and I had season tickets and went to every home game, Pele, Beckenbauer, Carlos Alberto, on and on. The atmosphere was incredible, one playoff game specifically is still maybe the most exciting live sporting event I've ever seen.
I lived in northern New Jersey for a couple years back then, made it over to Giants Stadium a couple times. The place was packed, and as you said, the atmosphere was incredible.
 

Kliq

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Watch clips from the 80s or 90s or before.. todays players are WAY faster and stronger.. the level of skill overall is also a lot better. It’s easier to see in person just how fast these guys are.. and they’re running for 90 minutes

Edit: I’d also add that the pitch/field quality overall has gotten a lot better.. there are a lot more soccer only stadia… lot more clubs, lot more academies.
Yeah, for a sport that relies so much on stamina and fitness, the innovations that have come from better equipment, better nutrition, better data on training, etc. have dramatically changed the game of soccer, perhaps more than any other major sport. Just think about how it wasn't that long ago where basically every player was a smoker; and the difference that has made. Stanley Matthews was playing top flight football into his 50s and won the Balllon d'Or when he was 41, basically because he was the one player who didn't smoke three packs a a day and drink a few pints every night.

It's also notable now that there are a lot more Black players in Europe then there were, certainly decades ago and even compared to ten years ago. African and Caribbean migration to Europe, as well as the continued development of domestic soccer in Africa, has allowed for way more Black athletes to get a fair chance to develop into top players, and the result is they are everywhere. It's not a coincidence that the French team is majority Black, or that countries like England, Netherlands, Germany, Belgium, etc. have so many Black players. Even countries like Spain and Italy now have multiple Black players on their national teams, with many more playing in the domestic leagues.
 

67YAZ

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Yeah, for a sport that relies so much on stamina and fitness, the innovations that have come from better equipment, better nutrition, better data on training, etc. have dramatically changed the game of soccer, perhaps more than any other major sport. Just think about how it wasn't that long ago where basically every player was a smoker; and the difference that has made. Stanley Matthews was playing top flight football into his 50s and won the Balllon d'Or when he was 41, basically because he was the one player who didn't smoke three packs a a day and drink a few pints every night.
It was only 26 years ago that Wenger showed up in England and blew everyone’s mind with things like stretching, banning after training beers in the players lounge, getting guys to eat a salad instead of pies & chips…now Liverpool employs a fleet of chefs that prepare personalized meals for each player based on dozens of bio-measurements and their current condition. It’s like sci fi compared to what Alan Shearer had available to him.
 

dirtynine

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I lived in northern New Jersey for a couple years back then, made it over to Giants Stadium a couple times. The place was packed, and as you said, the atmosphere was incredible.
I was too young for the Cosmos, but ironically in re. this conversation, I did attend the 2008 USMNT/Argentina match at old Giants Stadium that introduced Messi to North America. That was as electric a friendly as I’ve ever attended.

View: https://youtu.be/XPZEwKIGN6M
 

SocrManiac

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I think we tend to dismiss the footage of previous eras as looking slower because it's low res, the color isn't what we're used to, and it just looks off. That is no doubt sometimes true, but I think more times than not it's pretty representative. It looks slower because it IS slower. One of the folks here (and I apologize profusely for forgetting who) turned us on to the VintageHDtv channel on YouTube, and it sort of "normalizes" viewing a bit to provide some context. Here's a fairly relevant video (though I wish some of the highlights were longer):

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OujTPggazvs


Everything is a step slower, at least. The tackling can be vicious at times (watch the Argentinian defender's kickout around 5:54). Goalkeepers hadn't refined their movements for maximum coverage or speed (or, in some cases, post avoidance - ouch). Another thing about that French team sticks out at me but I can't quite put my finger on it...

Also, see? They can wear their classic kits.

One of the guys I played with in high school got into video editing for work. He digitized some of the few games we played that had been recorded. I was a lot happier when I could dismiss the speed as a relic of the grainy old VHS tape. He showed me a few clips from our school's more recent years. We were a powerhouse in the late 90's and now they're an also-ran in the next division down, which is disappointing. Side by side, we didn't look bad compared to the newer generation. Then, he downscaled the new stuff's resolution so the image quality was closer. Holy shit, we were in molasses (and dumb as fucking stumps on and off the ball). Based on what I saw I'm confident they'd have wiped us off the pitch. I think the progression of the US game is far, far more dramatic than it is in the world at large, but it also showed me just how dramatically image quality can play with our perception of what we're seeing.

Because all I've seen of Pele is that older footage and knowing the massive differences in the modern game, I have to think that Messi is the one and only.
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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This seems like a good place to ask: Did anyone else here get to see the Cosmos of the late seventies play much? I was very young, just 8 or 9, but my dad and I had season tickets and went to every home game, Pele, Beckenbauer, Carlos Alberto, on and on. The atmosphere was incredible, one playoff game specifically is still maybe the most exciting live sporting event I've ever seen.
I saw the short-lived and nearly-totally-unlamented Connecticut Bicentennials play in front of a Yale Bowl crowd that was maaaaayybe 3% of capacity. You could not only hear the shouts of players in the field, but conversations on the bench.
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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Watch clips from the 80s or 90s or before.. todays players are WAY faster and stronger.. the level of skill overall is also a lot better. It’s easier to see in person just how fast these guys are.. and they’re running for 90 minutes

Edit: I’d also add that the pitch/field quality overall has gotten a lot better.. there are a lot more soccer only stadia… lot more clubs, lot more academies.
I committed an act of family violence by getting my brother into Everton (sorry man) and footy generally. We grew up watching the Sox, Celtics, Whalers, Bruins, UConn hoops, NFL and college football, etc. He didn’t think much of soccer and had the usual derogatory things to say about it until we went to see Everton play Arsenal in Baltimore in July. He was blown away by the athleticism of the players, the speed of the action, the intensity of some of the contact- we sat right behind a goal, only a few rows back, so that we saw most of the pitch through the mesh of the net. From only a few yards away, the violence in front of goal on a corner is really something- most of what goes on would get you arrested out on the street. His big takeaway was that at an MLB or NFL game the action stopped every few seconds snd everyone spent the game with their faces in their phones, but here, even at a friendly, halfway around the world from these sides home bases, the action was nonstop and the crowd was riveted. Watching the likes of Jesus and Saka going up against, say, Yerry Mina, who would be an elite CB if he could stay healthy but has played fewer than 1/3 available games over the length of his contract , but here was healthy, and at 6’5” with the build of a TE could knock a big, physical forward into the second row with his gigantic ass cheek by boxing out on a cross into the box.

The size of the pitch is deceiving. The minds eye wants to make it like a basketball game on TV but an entire NBA regulation court fits into the 18 yard box. It’s a good deal bigger than the NFL gridiron. These guys cover tons of ground, they have to haul ass to do it, and the contact when they try to knock each other off the ball is not very gentle- they’ve been sprinting 40 yards to get into a tackle sometimes.
 

Zososoxfan

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[snip]

The only real argument against Messi is that there are players like Di Stefano, Puskas and Cruyff who were not only the best players of their day, but had a style and influence that really transcended and changed the game. It's hard for to really make that case in a significant way for Messi, other than the fact that he was really good and really famous.

Pele has a global status and enduring legacy that is hard to approach, but his club career is so different than Messi (mainly that he played a million exhibition games against European sides) that it really is foolish to compare them.
Pele is the transcendent cultural icon. The timing of his career with the early years of televised sports fixed him in the world’s
imagination. His figure still shapes how the game is viewed today by billions, directly and indirectly.


Yashin revolutionized goal keeping.

Puskas revolutionized play making.

DiStefano blazed a trailed from South America and vaulted Madrid to the top of the club game, where they still reside today.

Eusebio blazed the trail for African football.

Cruyff was the best player of his era, revolutionized tactics while still a a player, and then overhauled the the club game as a manager & director. No one has had a bigger impact on the sport top to bottom.

Maradona was a supernova, probably the most technically gifted player to ever grace the game.

Ronaldo was the perfect player for 2.5 seasons (1996-1998) before the gods got jealous and cursed his body.


But Messi has dominated the sport since his first great season in 2008-2009, routinely winning trophies against the toughest competition at a time when the global talent pool is deeper and more specialized than ever. He has outlasted his greatest rival, Cristiano Ronaldo, and was almost always his better anyway. Messi’s body of work makes him the best to ever lace up boots.
I think it’s really easy to forget how good Messi was because we have watched the slower, more static version for so long now. He, like Maradona, used to regularly dribble 3 and 4 defenders multiple times a match. These days that’s fewer and far between but to my eyes it’s very close between those two among players I’ve seen play and with Maradona I obviously saw him a lot less. I suspect Cruyff belongs in this conversation more than he is but players like him and Pele I can only have seen via highlights so it feels impossible
Lots to unpack here. I think there's a really fun discussion to be had here. I think the first thing we have to distinguish is best career vs. most talented. Best career goes to Messi in pretty much a landslide, although you could make a strong case for Pele, and perhaps others. The most talented discussion gets real interesting because I think even if you're just looking at it that way, you want to qualify it with some accomplishment(s) and/or longevity. IOW, the most talented player to win a UCL/EPL/WC/League Title, and/or most talented player for at least 1-2 seasons.

Looking at stylistic/tactical innovations as players, did Messi revolutionize the inverted winger role, or the modern 10, who both links up with the MF, but also combines with attacks while still expected to score? Because @teddykgb is right--Messi used to be a slaloming monster. I'm just not sure how unique he was in that regard. I also think he's a huge cultural and global icon--no way Bangladeshis and Brazilians are celebrating an Argentina win without him.

What were Cruyff's innovations as a player? I'm very familiar with him as a manager/philosopher. What were Puskas' innovations?

When I think of the best players of my life regardless of how you define it, the easy ones are Messi, CR7, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Henry, Zidane, Xavi, Iniesta, Maldini, Buffon, Bergkamp, and Cannavaro. There's obviously numerous other players who I'm missing, but that's just shooting from the hip.
 

nolasoxfan

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Pele is the transcendent cultural icon. The timing of his career with the early years of televised sports fixed him in the world’s
imagination. His figure still shapes how the game is viewed today by billions, directly and indirectly.
Pele = GOAT
1,281 goals in 1,363 games*, 3 World Cups, the Ambassador of Soccer.

*per this B/R article, which lists Cruyff as their #1.
 
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67YAZ

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What were Cruyff's innovations as a player? I'm very familiar with him as a manager/philosopher. What were Puskas' innovations?
Rinus Michels, as Ajax manager, & Cruyff, as field general, integrated several contemporary ideas and innovated them into Total Football in late-60s. Different versions of the history give different weight to the individual contributions of Michels and Cruyff, but it’s clear that they needed each other to develop the overall approach and dominate the club game for 8 years, and then Cruyff went to Barca to dominate for another 5 years bringing the same concepts with him.

Puskas, who Pele famously called his favorite player, was at the heart of the side decades ahead of its time, the "Mighty Magyars" Hungarian national team from the mid-40s to mid-50s. They played a fluid style with what we’d now call a false 9, which allowed Puskas to invent the modern CAM role where he averaged a goal a match and created many more. The Hungarians blew minds wherever they played and more or less single-handedly embarrassed the English into modernizing their approach after 1953’s 6-3 beat down. He defected from Hungary in 1956, hooked up with DiStefano at Madrid, and formed maybe the most devastating attacking duo the sport has ever seen.
 
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Marciano490

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Rinus Michels, as Ajax manager, & Cruyff, as field general, integrated several contemporary ideas and innovated them into Total Football in late-60s. Different versions of the history give different weight to the individual contributions of Michels and Cruyff, but it’s clear that they needed each other to develop the overall approach and dominate the club game for 8 years, and then Cruyff went to Barca to dominate for another 5 years bringing the same concepts with him.

Puskas, who Pele famously called his favorite player, was at the heart of the side decades ahead of its time, the Hungarian national team from the mid-40s to mid-50s. They played a fluid style with what we’d now call a false 9, which allowed Puskas to invent the modern CAM role where he averaged a goal a match and created many more. The Hungarians blew minds wherever they played and more or less single handedly embarrassed the English into modernizing their approach after 1953’s 6-3 beat down. He defected from Hungary in 1958, hooked up with DiStefano at Madrid, and formed maybe the most devastating attacking duo the sport has ever seen.
Thanks for this - never knew there was a Hungarian near the top of the GOAT list.
 

lars10

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I think it’s really easy to forget how good Messi was because we have watched the slower, more static version for so long now. He, like Maradona, used to regularly dribble 3 and 4 defenders multiple times a match. These days that’s fewer and far between but to my eyes it’s very close between those two among players I’ve seen play and with Maradona I obviously saw him a lot less. I suspect Cruyff belongs in this conversation more than he is but players like him and Pele I can only have seen via highlights so it feels impossible
I think the thing that most sets Messi apart is that he's good at pretty much everything.. except heading the ball I guess.
His dribbling, passing, goal scoring, free kicks, etc are all world class.

What I most appreciate about him is how many goals he scores sort of 'off-time'.. or like a jazz drummer.. so many of his goals go in and the keeper is just completely flat footed and doesn't even move. Messi struck/strikes the ball either right after or before most players would strike it..
Not sure it that can be classified as a signature or a style, but he's pretty much the only one I've seen do it...or at least consistently. Not sure if he changed the game in any way, but he definitely dominated it for quite a while.
 
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Apisith

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When a player so dominates and warps the game for his career, and wins every trophy and award imaginable, and far surpasses his contemporaries, it's okay to not overcomplicate it. Yes, he is the greatest of all time. He has had many phases to his career, from his physical peak and dominance (2008-2012) where he would regularly take on players and make them look like fools. He then lost his top line speed with muscle injuries but still had the acceleration to create space for himself. Even this version of him (2013-2017) warped the field. Then as he lost that acceleration, he relied more on timing and movement and playmaking. I'm surprised that this version of him is still effective today. It just shows how many layers there are to his game.

Personally, I love the 2010/2011 version the most. That was the one with all the elements combined - dropping deep to play make, taking on players, crazy assists, great finishes, jaw dropping skills. The 2011/2012 one was where he became more of a 9 than a false 9, but of course he was a 9, false 9, 10, 7 and more whenever it was required. The false 9 Messi is my personal favorite.
 

Zososoxfan

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I think the thing that most sets Messi apart is that he's good at pretty much everything.. except heading the ball I guess.
His dribbling, passing, goal scoring, free kicks, etc are all world class.

What I most appreciate about him is how many goals he scores sort of 'off-time'.. or like a jazz drummer.. so many of his goals go in and the keeper is just completely flat footed and doesn't even move. Messi struck/strikes the ball either right after or before most players would strike it..
Not sure it that can be classified as a signature or a style, but he's pretty much the only one I've seen do it...or at least consistently. Not sure if he changed the game in any way, but he definitely dominated it for quite a while.
Obligatory:

59148

He's very good at heading the ball, he's just short.
 

Zososoxfan

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Rinus Michels, as Ajax manager, & Cruyff, as field general, integrated several contemporary ideas and innovated them into Total Football in late-60s. Different versions of the history give different weight to the individual contributions of Michels and Cruyff, but it’s clear that they needed each other to develop the overall approach and dominate the club game for 8 years, and then Cruyff went to Barca to dominate for another 5 years bringing the same concepts with him.

Puskas, who Pele famously called his favorite player, was at the heart of the side decades ahead of its time, the "Mighty Magyars" Hungarian national team from the mid-40s to mid-50s. They played a fluid style with what we’d now call a false 9, which allowed Puskas to invent the modern CAM role where he averaged a goal a match and created many more. The Hungarians blew minds wherever they played and more or less single-handedly embarrassed the English into modernizing their approach after 1953’s 6-3 beat down. He defected from Hungary in 1956, hooked up with DiStefano at Madrid, and formed maybe the most devastating attacking duo the sport has ever seen.
Oh dang, I always thought of Total Football being epitomized by the terrific Dutch Euro winners of the late 80s. I had forgotten it went back into the 70s. Thanks.
 

Jimy Hendrix

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Also, RE: Cruyff, you can't discount the Cruyff Turn. You can't say he invented it because it's a dribble move, so who knows, but he undeniably popularized it at the 1974 World Cup. In terms of influence on a sport, it's like if the Euro Step was credited to a basketball player named John Euro.
 

OCST

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Obligatory:

View attachment 59148

He's very good at heading the ball, he's just short.
part of the legend is just how much of an everyman he is. He looks like a teacher or an accountant (some of my favorite people are teachers and accountants, so don't @ me, but as much as I love you you don't look like the dominant athlete of your time).

He is short, he does not appear athletic, although he was capable of blistering sprint speed at his peak. More than that, with his facial features and body language, he's got this Forrest Gump, just-kinda-here affect. He can look pissed off when he's competing, but even that has a kind of endearing quality. More Gretzky than Bird, attitude-wise.

One of the reasons the Messi vs Ronaldo comparison has festered over the years, because Ronaldo is the opposite, if you asked an AI to build "best footballer in the world" it would come out as Ronaldo, complete with the cut muscles, 2% body fat, chiseled abs, fragrance-model good looks, and supreme-asshole personality.

That shouldn't matter re: GOAT conversation, but it does. People like Messi.
 

CreightonGubanich

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It's maybe harder in soccer to compare across eras than in any other sport, partly because of the fragmented nature of the competition prior to the last 20 years or so. I'd vote Messi as the GOAT if I had to vote, but I also didn't see much of those players from prior eras. I'm pretty confident calling Messi the best of his generation, though. I've used the Gretzky comparison to some of my casual soccer fan friends. Sure, people would like to complicate the discussion, because maybe it's kind of boring to just have complete consensus as to who the best ever was, but the complications aren't really constructive. My favorite Gretzky stat, which will hold true at least a little while longer, is that if he'd never scored a single goal, he'd still be the NHL's all time leading point scorer. And he's also the all time leader in goals. That's Messi - he's maybe the best goal scorer ever, certainly the equal of his greatest peer (Ronaldo), but he also is an all time great purely as a creator.

I don't know if he revolutionized the game per se -- he's pretty much a classic trequartista in terms of skillset -- but it's worth noting that he basically established the platonic ideal of the false nine playing under Pep at Barca. He wasn't the first to do it, but he did it the best.

The things you can pick at Messi's career about - that he never played in the more physical EPL, that he spent his prime at Barca surrounded by elite talent and never really had to elevate a middling club - probably have some truth to them, I just don't think it's enough to move the needle.
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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Also, RE: Cruyff, you can't discount the Cruyff Turn. You can't say he invented it because it's a dribble move, so who knows, but he undeniably popularized it at the 1974 World Cup. In terms of influence on a sport, it's like if the Euro Step was credited to a basketball player named John Euro.
The old National Lampoon magazine had a Sports issue in the mid 70's, in which they gave spoof histories of the major sports. My alcoholic, degenerate gambler Uncle Tommy would get comics for me when he bought his Oui and High Society mags, and he'd get me National Lampoon also.* I found this issue online during the Winter Olympics because I wanted to show my wife & kid the BOBSLEDDING article which started: "If you own a roller coaster, and are careful not to let anyone else use it, you are probably the second or third best roller coaster racer in the world. Similarly, if you own a bobsled run and a bobsled...."

Anyway, as pertinent here: the BASKETBALL article started: "Basketball was invented in Springfield, Massachusetts in 1891 by Dr. Thomas Basketball."

Carry on.


*This was horrendous. In terms of warping a young boy's outlook, he would have been better off giving me the Ouis. The old National Lampoons are so racist and sexist that it's literally jaw-dropping to read them now.
 

VORP Speed

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This seems like a good place to ask: Did anyone else here get to see the Cosmos of the late seventies play much? I was very young, just 8 or 9, but my dad and I had season tickets and went to every home game, Pele, Beckenbauer, Carlos Alberto, on and on. The atmosphere was incredible, one playoff game specifically is still maybe the most exciting live sporting event I've ever seen.
Saw them a couple of times as a little kid in the late '70s at Tampa Stadium vs the Rowdies. Big crowds, tons of excitement. Was the playoff game the 1978 Soccer Bowl? I remember watching that on TV with my dad, sold out Giants stadium, Rodney Marsh couldn't go for the Rowdies so Cosmos squeaked out the win. And then like a year or two later nobody cared about soccer anymore.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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part of the legend is just how much of an everyman he is. He looks like a teacher or an accountant (some of my favorite people are teachers and accountants, so don't @ me, but as much as I love you you don't look like the dominant athlete of your time).

He is short, he does not appear athletic, although he was capable of blistering sprint speed at his peak. More than that, with his facial features and body language, he's got this Forrest Gump, just-kinda-here affect. He can look pissed off when he's competing, but even that has a kind of endearing quality. More Gretzky than Bird, attitude-wise.

One of the reasons the Messi vs Ronaldo comparison has festered over the years, because Ronaldo is the opposite, if you asked an AI to build "best footballer in the world" it would come out as Ronaldo, complete with the cut muscles, 2% body fat, chiseled abs, fragrance-model good looks, and supreme-asshole personality.

That shouldn't matter re: GOAT conversation, but it does. People like Messi.
The interesting flip side of this, however, is that other players seem much more likely - at least based on accumulated anecdotal observation - to have grown up idolizing Ronaldo.

I think Messi's talents are actually very hard for other players to relate to or imagine themselves having: The thought process is sort of like "What if I had God-like ability to manipulate the ball with my left foot and was also the quickest person with the ball anybody has ever seen?" Cristiano is actually much more relatable as a player because its more like, "What if I was just an excellent athlete, an excellent striker of the ball, and supremely competitive, so that I became really really good at scoring goals?"
 

Jimy Hendrix

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Following that Hungary 6 -3 link is also highly recommended. You'd think the difference between the "futuristic" Hungary and England would have dissipated over 70 years and it would all just look vaguely old timey, but even with the relatively short highlights you can see the Hungarians just doing more stuff that reads as modern/modernish.
 

lars10

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Obligatory:

View attachment 59148

He's very good at heading the ball, he's just short.
Yeah that’s what I meant.. when challenged he’s not going to get there like Ronaldo. When I think of someone who dominated in the air it’s him. Messi is of course very good at using his head .. he’s just not tall enough to out jump his defender.
 

67YAZ

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Following that Hungary 6 -3 link is also highly recommended. You'd think the difference between the "futuristic" Hungary and England would have dissipated over 70 years and it would all just look vaguely old timey, but even with the relatively short highlights you can see the Hungarians just doing more stuff that reads as modern/modernish.
I actually think that clip is cut pretty favorably for England (and the English narrator is good), but this 15 minute cut makes the different much more clear. And then there’s the full match

I also never knew this until I went back to read more, but ManU tried to sign Puskas in 1958. Puskas had been forced by FIFA, UEFA, and various political forces to sit out from club and international football for 2 years after defecting, but had been barnstorming around Europe with some of the other Hungarian defectors. In 1958 Puskas eventually got approved to sign with a club and switch national teams, and he was Jimmy Murphy’s #1 target to rebuild the United squad around following the Munich crash. But the English FA had a rule that incoming players had to speak English, which Puskas did not. So Murphy’s dream was dashed, and Puskas joined Madrid & Spain instead.
 

Zososoxfan

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The interesting flip side of this, however, is that other players seem much more likely - at least based on accumulated anecdotal observation - to have grown up idolizing Ronaldo.

I think Messi's talents are actually very hard for other players to relate to or imagine themselves having: The thought process is sort of like "What if I had God-like ability to manipulate the ball with my left foot and was also the quickest person with the ball anybody has ever seen?" Cristiano is actually much more relatable as a player because its more like, "What if I was just an excellent athlete, an excellent striker of the ball, and supremely competitive, so that I became really really good at scoring goals?"
I went back and watched some highlights just to refresh my memory. Anything from the 30s is barely watchable, but when you turn on Pele highlights, he really does look like a modern player, with tight control, excellent dribbling, passing, balance, and finishing.

When I watch CR7, I see an otherworldly dribbler, with insane balance, speed, strength, and striking ability. What stands out from his early days compared to Messi and Mbappe though, is how the latter 2 are more direct. And really, that's what separates Messi from a lot of these others guys as @Morgan's Magic Snowplow alludes to.

Messi has spent most of his career fooling on defenders with simple cutbacks, feints, and of course, caños (nutmegs). He doesn't use a flurry of stepovers, he just goes around you in the most efficient way possible. Mbappe shares some of that mentality, but his blistering speed just puts every other player I can remember in a fight for 2nd.

Edit: One other thing that I think Messi is underrated for is his passing. He's leaps and bounds better than CR7 at passing and obviously a lot more willing. Mbappe seems to be unselfish enough to be more well-rounded than CR7 too if he chooses to continue down that path.
 

jon abbey

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Saw them a couple of times as a little kid in the late '70s at Tampa Stadium vs the Rowdies. Big crowds, tons of excitement. Was the playoff game the 1978 Soccer Bowl? I remember watching that on TV with my dad, sold out Giants stadium, Rodney Marsh couldn't go for the Rowdies so Cosmos squeaked out the win. And then like a year or two later nobody cared about soccer anymore.
No, it was an earlier playoff game that same season, the quarterfinals. The odd format they used back then was one game at the lower seeded team, then one game at the higher seeded team. If they split the two games, they played a 'mini-game' right then to decide it.

NY had the best record ever in the league that year at 24-6 with a +49 goal differential, and drew Minnesota in the quarters. Somehow Minnesota scored early and just kept scoring and they won the first game 9-2 (!!!), Alan Willey scored five goals. So the return match was the game I went to, NY won 4-0, so an immediate mini-game, scoreless, shootout. Their shootout format was the player starts at midfield and dribbles in, and the goalie can come out if they want, and the entire stadium was standing on their seats, 77,000 people. NY won 2-1, advanced, and ended up winning the Soccer Bowl as you said.

http://www.nasl.com/news/2015/07/30/throwback-thursday--minnesota-kicks-alan-willey-scores-five-goals-against-cosmos-in-playoff-match
 

VORP Speed

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No, it was an earlier playoff game that same season, the quarterfinals. The odd format they used back then was one game at the lower seeded team, then one game at the higher seeded team. If they split the two games, they played a 'mini-game' right then to decide it.

NY had the best record ever in the league that year at 24-6 with a +49 goal differential, and drew Minnesota in the quarters. Somehow Minnesota scored early and just kept scoring and they won the first game 9-2 (!!!), Alan Willey scored five goals. So the return match was the game I went to, NY won 4-0, so an immediate mini-game, scoreless, shootout. Their shootout format was the player starts at midfield and dribbles in, and the goalie can come out if they want, and the entire stadium was standing on their seats, 77,000 people. NY won 2-1, advanced, and ended up winning the Soccer Bowl as you said.

http://www.nasl.com/news/2015/07/30/throwback-thursday--minnesota-kicks-alan-willey-scores-five-goals-against-cosmos-in-playoff-match
And then everyone went to Studio54. Those were the days!
 

teddykgb

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I think most players would recognize Messi for the freak he is/was. Both Ronaldos have some incredible traits and an uncanny ability to finish. But Messi and Maradona did things with the ball in traffic you’re just not supposed to be able to do. We have always had dribblers in the sport, it’s not an entirely uncommon skill, but most of the best dribblers are tricky in 1 v 1 or 1 v 2 situations with the end and goal line in support (they know no help comes from those directions). Messi and Maradona would shed 2+ defenders in the midfield. We are talking about grown man defenders trying to just toe poke a fairly large ball while 2 and 3 other friends do the same from very short distances with someone like Messi surrounded. The close control, anticipation and deft touch needed to consistently emerge with the ball is in my opinion the greatest skill you can express in the sport. Maybe I’m way over biased toward dribbling but it separates Messi and Maradona for me from some of the more prolific scorers and dribblers. They really just had it all and did it all
 

Kliq

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Rinus Michels, as Ajax manager, & Cruyff, as field general, integrated several contemporary ideas and innovated them into Total Football in late-60s. Different versions of the history give different weight to the individual contributions of Michels and Cruyff, but it’s clear that they needed each other to develop the overall approach and dominate the club game for 8 years, and then Cruyff went to Barca to dominate for another 5 years bringing the same concepts with him.

Puskas, who Pele famously called his favorite player, was at the heart of the side decades ahead of its time, the "Mighty Magyars" Hungarian national team from the mid-40s to mid-50s. They played a fluid style with what we’d now call a false 9, which allowed Puskas to invent the modern CAM role where he averaged a goal a match and created many more. The Hungarians blew minds wherever they played and more or less single-handedly embarrassed the English into modernizing their approach after 1953’s 6-3 beat down. He defected from Hungary in 1956, hooked up with DiStefano at Madrid, and formed maybe the most devastating attacking duo the sport has ever seen.
Thanks for sharing that. A big advantage for the Hungarian team of that era was that they wore custom-made boots from a Budapest cobbler that basically pioneered a more modern shoe that every team would soon adopt. The match against England in 1953 is one of the most significant matches in world history; England hadn't lost a home game since 1949 and basically had a massive sense of entitlement that since they invented the game, they were surely the finest practitioners of the game and had the best tactics. The humiliation not only sparked English changes, but modernized world football as the game had so much hype around it and the result was so shocking that everyone took notice. Hungary's loss in the 1954 World Cup Final to West Germany is considered one of the biggest upsets in World Cup History.

Another player that is probably not as good as Messi, but was a pioneering footballer that most people don't know about, is the Filipino Messi, whose career mimicked Messi's, only about 100 years earlier.
 

coremiller

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What makes Messi unique is that his game is not just about goals. He's simultaneously been the best goal-scorer of his era and the best creative/passing midfielder of his era. Unlike most of the other great scorers, Messi can dominate games from midfield without scoring - he's literally off the charts in all the ball-progression/chance creation stats. Messi is what you get if you combine Ronaldo's goal-scoring and Xavi's passing into the same player. That should be impossible -- indeed, nobody else has come close to replicating it.
 

lars10

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I went back and watched some highlights just to refresh my memory. Anything from the 30s is barely watchable, but when you turn on Pele highlights, he really does look like a modern player, with tight control, excellent dribbling, passing, balance, and finishing.

When I watch CR7, I see an otherworldly dribbler, with insane balance, speed, strength, and striking ability. What stands out from his early days compared to Messi and Mbappe though, is how the latter 2 are more direct. And really, that's what separates Messi from a lot of these others guys as @Morgan's Magic Snowplow alludes to.

Messi has spent most of his career fooling on defenders with simple cutbacks, feints, and of course, caños (nutmegs). He doesn't use a flurry of stepovers, he just goes around you in the most efficient way possible. Mbappe shares some of that mentality, but his blistering speed just puts every other player I can remember in a fight for 2nd.

Edit: One other thing that I think Messi is underrated for is his passing. He's leaps and bounds better than CR7 at passing and obviously a lot more willing. Mbappe seems to be unselfish enough to be more well-rounded than CR7 too if he chooses to continue down that path.
I was watching video compilations of some Messi goals yesterday.. and one thing that was very evident is how ridiculous those Barcelona teams were at passing in the box. Messi constantly passes and runs into an open position and the whole team is looking to do 1-2s.

Was also thinking of this this morning.. Messi in this World Cup was basically vintage Pedro. Doesn't have his best stuff, but still very very good.. and has adapted his game to what he's capable of doing. He was in the right place so many times and created so many chances.

For me..as per your bolded.. the thing that sets Messi apart from Ronaldo is his passing and his unselfishness. He's not always looking to score himself..just what is the best way to score. When I got my last Barcelona jersey I had Iniesta put on the back.. because the two of them together were amazing.

Edit: or what coremiller said
 

67YAZ

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I was watching video compilations of some Messi goals yesterday.. and one thing that was very evident is how ridiculous those Barcelona teams were at passing in the box. Messi constantly passes and runs into an open position and the whole team is looking to do 1-2s.
The Messi highlights are packed with tap in goals he created for himself or his teammates. It’s uncanny. His ability to manipulate space, eliminate defenders, and generate so many simple roll-it-in-the-next finishes is insane.
 

Kliq

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What makes Messi unique is that his game is not just about goals. He's simultaneously been the best goal-scorer of his era and the best creative/passing midfielder of his era. Unlike most of the other great scorers, Messi can dominate games from midfield without scoring - he's literally off the charts in all the ball-progression/chance creation stats. Messi is what you get if you combine Ronaldo's goal-scoring and Xavi's passing into the same player. That should be impossible -- indeed, nobody else has come close to replicating it.
Imagine saying this as a Spurs fan and watching Harry Kane...
 

Dummy Hoy

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It's tough to argue against Messi, he's certainly in the Pantheon. When comparing eras you can really only compare what people did against their contemporaries and for that reason I'm inclined to have a collection of GOATs rather than just one. Pele, Puskas, Cruyff, Diego Armando Maradona are all up there for me...maybe a couple of others I suppose.

Someone upthread mentioned career v. talent and this guy immediately sprung to mind, and I hadn't seen him mentioned yet.
 

coremiller

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Imagine saying this as a Spurs fan and watching Harry Kane...
Actually this really proves my point. Kane has become a very good creative passer for a striker but he doesn't do possession-oriented midfield tasks like passing and ball progression in the way Messi does. Kane is at 3.58 progressive passes/90 in the last year--very good for a striker--but Messi is at 9.77. Kane completes 1.39 passes into the penalty area per 90, Messi does 4.97. Messi plays about 60-65 passes per 90, Kane about 25.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I'm not a soccer fan except for when I watch the World Cup, so I don't know enough about the leagues, etc.

But does Mbappe have a chance at this title in the future? I thought I saw a stat that he is only 1 goal behind Messi in World Cup play (13-12) and only 4 back of the all time record of 16. And he just turned 24, like yesterday. He was certainly the best player I noticed throughout the tournament, but again, I'm a complete novice.
 

67YAZ

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If anyone is in for the super-nerdy-long-read, StatsBomb has made a Messi data-biography free. I just dipped in here and there. Great stuff, natch.