Is Mac Jones the biggest bust in Patriots history?

[NextBigThing8184]

In the Belichick era, the Easley one is the one that bothers me the most. A guy with known knee problems and whose college game - even if his legs held up - wasn’t necessarily going to translate well was the ultimate boom or bust pick

not only did he predictably get hurt but they totally whiffed on his character too. He was the guy who said he didn’t like watching football growing up, had never seen a super bowl and preferred watching cartoons. Which, fine, some guys treat the NFL as a job, but the BB “Patriot Way” seemed predicated on guys who had passion and ate, breathed, slept football which never seemed to be Easley. Making things worse, even after his knee fell apart, BB stuck with him and let Akiem Hicks leave (reportedly wanted to stay but wouldn’t accept a rotational role/contract to split time with Easley and Brown) and then cut Easley a month or two later when Easley had whatever falling out with his rehab/team doctor advice.

Everything about Easley stunk from the moment that pick was made.

Kenneth Sims was a huge flop although most of the the top of that class flopped too so even in a world where they make a different pick, they still likely get a dud undeserving of #1 overall.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

You can keep Thornton, but he has Tyquan Thornton games on a too-regular basis.

Just this year:
vs. LAR - 3 catches, 47 yards, 1 TD
@ NYG - 3 catches, 34 yards, 1 TD
vs BAL - 1 catch, 50 yards
vs SF - 3 catches, 32 yards
@ SF - 2 catches, 52 yards, 1 TD (both catches on the first drive, then nothing)

And it doesn't include the fact that he leads the league in 15 yard penalties since 2019

He also has an abysmal number of broken tackles despite having that God-like body (27 in 78 career games).

If he faces a decent DB that messes with him, he gets taken out of the game mentally.

I'm not saying he's terrible or anything, but he's not as good as he should be and is way behind Brown and Deebo. I'd be hard pressed to put him in the top 25 WRs in the league right now.

Tyquan has had two games in his career that look like any of those worst games by Metcalf this season. He has zero broken tackles in his career. He drops one out of every 9 passes thrown to him.

Don't get me wrong, he definitely has some warts, but as the 64th overall pick in the draft, he's been everything and then some any team could ever want. Outside of the top 25 is crazy talk though. Seriously.

 

[Old Fart Tree]

Adalius Thomas probably makes the top 10.

wait what??

 

[Old Fart Tree]

Please. Starter for a title team.

yeah listing tebucky is also a terrible and weird take.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

wait what??

They paid a ton of money for him but he fizzled after one good year.

 

[Remagellan]

Nope, this guy will be hard to displace.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Sims

#1 overall pick, 74 games and 17 sacks in his career.

This was my first thought as well, but I'm guessing one's answer is going to depend on how old they are.

Looking at that draft, 1982 was a pretty thin draft year. Only four Hall of Famers--Mike Munchak (8 to the Oilers), Marcus Allen (10 to the Raiders), Andre Tippett (41 to the Pats), and Morten Andersen (86 to the Saints).

 

[Old Fart Tree]

They paid a ton of money for him but he fizzled after one good year.

So, not to belabor the point, but a) he was a free agent and b) he was like a top ten defensive player that first year. He’s not in the top billion draft busts (because he wasn’t a draft pick) and probably not the top 100 FA busts.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

He’s not in the top billion draft busts (because he wasn’t a draft pick)

Yeah, sorry -- I missed the last sentence of the original post and was just focused on "bust."

 

[patinorange]

Sims.

 

[Old Fart Tree]

SAY THE REST @DennyDoyle'sBoil

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

SAY THE REST @DennyDoyle'sBoil

I don’t know what that means.

 

[DanoooME]

Tyquan has had two games in his career that look like any of those worst games by Metcalf this season. He has zero broken tackles in his career. He drops one out of every 9 passes thrown to him.

Don't get me wrong, he definitely has some warts, but as the 64th overall pick in the draft, he's been everything and then some any team could ever want. Outside of the top 25 is crazy talk though. Seriously.

Clearly better (12): Tyreek, Chase, Jefferson, Davante, AJ Brown, Lamb, Diggs, Kupp, Deebo, Keenan Allen, Mike Evans, A St Brown
Can argue for (12): Aiyuk, Olave, G Wilson, Devonta Smith, Waddle, Lockett, McLaurin, Godwin, Higgins, DJ Moore, Pittman, A Cooper
Too soon to tell but arguable (4): Nacua, Nico Collins, Addison, Flowers

OK, so maybe not top 25, but you can argue he's not top 20.

 

[lexrageorge]

Adalius Thomas probably makes the top 10.

wait what??

Adalius Thomas was Belichick's biggest free agent acquisition up to that point. He was signed the very first day of free agency to what I believe was a contract that made him the highest paid defensive player in the game. Thomas was named first team All-Pro in the just concluded season, and Belichick got to coach him in the Pro Bowl (hmmm....).

In his first season with the Pats, he did not make the Pro Bowl. Part of that was his sack total was down from 11 to 6.5, which was still good enough for 2nd on the team. Another reason was that the 2007 Pats had a number of players going to the Pro Bowl already: Vrabel (12.5 sacks), Wilfork, and Asante Samuel. And then there was one game, against Peyton Manning in the Colts in a battle of 2 undefeated teams, in which he was sort of benched for a series or a quarter. The reasons behind it were never explained, but there was some smoke about some friction between Thomas and Belichick. He had a good season, but there were some rumblings even here that his production did not quite meet his cap hit.

In 2008 he played well but got hurt after 9 games. In 2009 he was essentially washed and ended the season on the bench after battling Bill about being late to a practice. He was cut in the offseason and never played another down. Definitely a disappointing finish for someone who was signed to be a mainstay on the defense. So I can see why people put him in the bust category when it comes to free agent signings, even though he was hardly that in his first 2 seasons.

Interestingly, in an interview several years later in a segment about the players from the Patriots gap years (2005-13), he was complimentary to Bill and the Patriots, and seemed to be at peace with the entire situation.

 

[Old Fart Tree]

I don’t know what that means.

It means you cropped my point why he’s not even a top 100 FA bust for the Pats.

Whatever, you’ve been sufficiently beaten up for this radioactive hot take.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

It means you cropped my point why he’s not even a top 100 FA bust for the Pats.

Whatever, you’ve been sufficiently beaten up for this radioactive hot take.

I acknowledged on the first page of the thread that I had misunderstood the question, but you still want to debate the merits? Anyway, I posted my thought. They paid a ton of money for him, and he turned out to be much less than he had been in Baltimore, and a bit of a whiny malcontent they had to cut after vague quasi-disciplinary whispers. He was one of Bill’s worst big ticket FA acquisitions and disappointed in the period between the two dynasties, and his career culminated in an ass kicking in the playoffs from his old team.

But more important, let me apologize for not knowing you were a member here, Mrs. Thomas. I regret I said a mean thing about your son.

 

[Old Fart Tree]

But more important, let me apologize for not knowing you were a member here, Mrs. Thomas. I regret I said a mean thing about your son.

This is the last resort of a bad argument.

He had one outstanding year and fizzled in part due to injuries. I understand the visceral disappointment that he wasn’t LT Pt 2, but calling him a top FA bust of all time is just silly.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

This is the last resort of a bad argument.

It was meant as a joke. I’m not deeply vested in whether people think I am right about Adalius Thomas.

I remember a lot of harsh words about him around here back then — maybe history has regarded him more gently, given that he turned out to be a good guy in retirement. I think bust in this context is relative to expectations and it is also easy to forget how much he was paid for the time. Defensive players were just not taking up nearly that much cap back then, and the cap was less than half what it is now. I’m pretty sure he got more guaranteed money than Randy Moss or Tom Brady for those years, and was thought to be a BFD. I think the suggestion that he doesn’t make the top 100 is preposterous and the “radioactive hot take” quip deserved an equally sarcastic response.

The thread is about Mac, and I actually thought they were an off the beaten path if imperfect comparison. Seemed good, if not quite up to top billing at first, but degenerated into overhyped disappointments who got benched in subsequent years and were divisive. They are obviously different players and the situations are not nearly the same, but when the thread was posted it struck me as a call back to a similar Patriot trajectory that seemed a bit off the beaten path, I posted it, and then a few minutes later conceded I had missed the point of the thread, only to have you bring it back two pages later. That’s my defense of what I posted. I’m tired and will let you have the last word.

 

[azsoxpatsfan]

I don’t think a real argument can be made that Mac is the biggest bust, but I’m more interested in the others in the list. Michel has been covered, but Easley? Like he sucked, but he was the 29th pick. I don’t see how a guy picked that low can be considered an all time franchise bust.

 

[dynomite]

I don’t think a real argument can be made that Mac is the biggest bust, but I’m more interested in the others in the list. Michel has been covered, but Easley? Like he sucked, but he was the 29th pick. I don’t see how a guy picked that low can be considered an all time franchise bust.

Well this gets back to the N’Keal Harry argument as the 32nd pick, and whether we’re talking about biggest “busts” on their own or “worst draft pick” given the alternatives available.

I think there’s broad agreement he’s an all-time franchise bust, partly because it could have changed the final year of Brady’s tenure and mostly because Deebo and Brown went next and there were so many outstanding WRs still on the board.

It’s an even more extreme version of the Jets taking Kenny O’Brien with the 24th pick in ‘83. A QB picked 24th has a low success rate and he actually was a very good QB for a long time, making 2 Pro Bowls and finishing with 25,000 yards. The problem is Marino was taken 3 picks later.

 

[Old Fart Tree]

It was meant as a joke. I’m not deeply vested in whether people think I am right about Adalius Thomas.

I remember a lot of harsh words about him around here back then — maybe history has regarded him more gently, given that he turned out to be a good guy in retirement. I think bust in this context is relative to expectations and it is also easy to forget how much he was paid for the time. Defensive players were just not taking up nearly that much cap back then, and the cap was less than half what it is now. I’m pretty sure he got more guaranteed money than Randy Moss or Tom Brady for those years, and was thought to be a BFD. I think the suggestion that he doesn’t make the top 100 is preposterous and the “radioactive hot take” quip deserved an equally sarcastic response.

The thread is about Mac, and I actually thought they were an off the beaten path if imperfect comparison. Seemed good, if not quite up to top billing at first, but degenerated into overhyped disappointments who got benched in subsequent years and were divisive. They are obviously different players and the situations are not nearly the same, but when the thread was posted it struck me as a call back to a similar Patriot trajectory that seemed a bit off the beaten path, I posted it, and then a few minutes later conceded I had missed the point of the thread, only to have you bring it back two pages later. That’s my defense of what I posted. I’m tired and will let you have the last word.

nah, I was probably overly snarky.

 

[Humphrey]

Beat me to it. For whatever reason, Hart Lee is the first guy I think of when I think of busts even though Kenneth Sims is the right answer.

IIRC Dykes suffered a career ending injury in his second year. Do not recall him getting trashed that much for those two years. The team in 1990 was worse than the current team. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DykeHa00.htm Dykes had 600 more yards receiving than Harry and Harry's been around twice as long https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrNK00.htm

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

nah, I was probably overly snarky.

Started getting chills last night while we were debating. Up all night puking with stomach virus or food poisoning. Had Adalius Thomas fever dreams all night. True story.

 

[Bergs]

Adalius Thomas probably makes the top 10.

He was free agent signing and was fantastic in his first year with us. So, no.

 

[Toe Nash]

Too bad Metcalf has a 10 cent head and is taken out of the game by any DB with the stones to talk trash and get physical with him.

Otherwise, Metcalf would make pretty much every team regret not taking him.

A well-run org like the Patriots under the best coach of all time is supposed to be able to get the best out of such players. Theoretically.

 

[Old Fart Tree]

He was free agent signing and was fantastic in his first year with us. So, no.

WEVE BEEN OVER THIS BERGS

Adalius Thomas Night Sweats is my least favorite Commodores tribute band.

 

[lars10]

He was free agent signing and was fantastic in his first year with us. So, no.

Lol.. how to tell us you haven’t read the rest of the thread without telling us you haven’t read the rest of the thread

 

[lars10]

Career AV for the first round picks since 1990 for the Pats:

1990 - Chris Singleton 27 AV, Ray Agnew 42 AV
1991 - Pat Harlow 34 AV, Leonard Russell 26 AV
1992 - Eugene Chung 13 AV
1993 - Drew Bledsoe 105 AV
1994 - Willie McGinest 76 AV
1995 - Ty Law 88 AV
1996 - Terry Glenn 67 AV (man that's a nice last four first round picks)
1997 - Chris Canty 9 AV
1998 - Robert Edwards 13 AV, Tebucky Jones 27 AV
1999 - Damien Woody 59 AV, Andy Katzenmoyer 8 AV
2000 - none
2001 - Richard Seymour 91 AV
2002 - Daniel Graham 19 AV
2003 - Ty Warren 45 AV
2004 - Vince Wilfork 90 AV, Ben Watson 40 AV
2005 - Logan Mankins 102 AV
2006 - Laurence Maroney 26 AV
2007 - Brandon Meriweather 33 AV
2008 - Jerod Mayo 51 AV
2009 - none
2010 - Devin McCourty 71 AV
2011 - Nate Solder 64 AV
2012 - Chandler Jones 77 AV
2013 - none
2014 - Dominque Easley 7 AV
2015 - Malcom Brown 43 AV
2016 - none
2017 - none
2018 - Isaiah Wynn 19 AV, Sony Michel 21 AV
2019 - N'Keal Harry 7 AV
2020 - none
2021 - Mac Jones 22 AV
2022 - Cole Strange 7 AV
2023 - Christian Gonzalez (no data yet)

So of this group, my nominees are:

Andy Katzenmoyer, Eugene Chung, Chris Candy, Dominique Easley, and N'Keal Harry

Katzenmoyer was massively hyped if I remember correctly, and he was a big fat zero. He would be my vote. Note, of course, that I started this list in 1990, so there were some fails before then. I'm just trying to stay kindasorta recent.

Katzenmoyer would be on my list.. he was an absolute beast at Ohio State (I say as a PSU fan) and I expected him to be a decent addition to the pats d.. not sure what happened to him but he just may have been a AAAA type player.. maybe too undersized for his position in the NFL?

Edit: neck injury.. walked out of camp and never played again apparently.

 

[dynomite]

IIRC Dykes suffered a career ending injury in his second year. Do not recall him getting trashed that much for those two years. The team in 1990 was worse than the current team. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DykeHa00.htm Dykes had 600 more yards receiving than Harry and Harry's been around twice as long https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrNK00.htm

Yes I covered this above (you mean you didn’t read every one of the hundreds of prior posts?!) — Dykes was more like a 1989 version of Malcolm Mitchell. (Although again, if a rookie in 2023 had 800 yards and 5 TDs that would be impressive, let alone in 1989)

A “bust” simply can’t play. Dykes and Mitchell clearly could, they're more a “what might have been.”

 

[Ale Xander]

Chad Jackson (suckage) or Ken Sims (injuries + being #1)

 

[DJnVa]

Chad Jackson (suckage) or Ken Sims (injuries + being #1)

The answer isn't a 2nd round pick. That's worse than your sports movie takes.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

I totally understood why you stopped at Deebo and Brown, I just try to never miss an opportunity to post the picture of DK Metcalf at the combine.

Because when you have an option to take an SEC receiver that looks like an actual God of chiseled stone, and runs a 4.33, you damn well better take the 4.53 guy out of the PAC 12 instead. Or AJ Brown, who left his own party and went home and cried when the Pats didn't take him.

And the Pats didn't just reach for Harry, they passed on Metcalf and Brown TWICE. After taking Harry at 32, Metcalf and Brown were both still there at 45 when the Pats took Joejuan Williams, who at last check, I think is playing special teams for the Vikings now, after he couldn't hack it for the Chicago fucking Bears.

My god, that 2019 draft haunts me.

I blame David Boston for that. Dude got so jacked he worked himself out of the league. I have to imagine teams looked and Boston and DK and got scared of drafting him.

 

[Over Guapo Grande]

Richard Seymour.
They could have gotten David Terrell or Koren Robinson. Or at least Kenyatta Walker.

 

[Cotillion]

Richard Seymour.
They could have gotten David Terrell or Koren Robinson. Or at least Kenyatta Walker.

This is a deep cut

 

[Dogman]

He was inactive so much he is probably worthy of consideration, like Adalius.

 

[Old Fart Tree]

Richard Seymour.
They could have gotten David Terrell or Koren Robinson. Or at least Kenyatta Walker.

Strong to quite strong.

 

[Ale Xander]

The answer isn't a 2nd round pick. That's worse than your sports movie takes.

Pick in the 30’s who did nothing

And the latter? Coming from someone who thinks Rocky III was better than Rocky IV? Cmon man

 

[Ale Xander]

Richard Seymour.
They could have gotten David Terrell or Koren Robinson. Or at least Kenyatta Walker.

Are you high?

 

[Over Guapo Grande]

<--- MY POST --->




ALE'S HEAD

 

[Dogman]

Are you high?

Wow. Just wow.

 

[tims4wins]

Bannable offense IMO

 

[Arroyoyo]

I considered Canty too, but he was

Richard Seymour.
They could have gotten David Terrell or Koren Robinson. Or at least Kenyatta Walker.

Now we’re boarding

 

[Marbleheader]

We're getting old, folks. There's an entire generation who probably has no idea who Ron Borges is. That's not a bad thing.

 

[Arroyoyo]

We're getting old, folks. There's an entire generation who probably has no idea who Ron Borges is. That's not a bad thing.

Oh he’s one of the forefathers of the “every article I write about a Boston sports team is not-so-subtlety just an article about me” brand of Boston sports journalism. If you’re not familiar with Borges, you’re not familiar with where 90% of the Boston sports media (along with Ordway) got their schtick from.

 

[mikcou]

Are you high?

Sir, that was a Ron Borges roast.

 

[Ale Xander]

Oopsie

 

[tims4wins]

Oopsie

Any excuse to post this

 

[dcdrew10]

I guess if you wanted to define the biggest bust as the player that was the biggest contributor to bad play, the team's lack of success, and/or the team going from successful to unsuccessful, Mac is pretty high on the list. I would give him a pass on last season, because the pure sewage that was the offensive coaching, a bad offensive line, and limited weapons, but it's more of the same and worse this year, with slightly better coaching and offensive line. Mac makes the Patriots demonstratively worse when he is on the field and is a major part of the reason they suck. In comparison to Dowling and Dykes who couldn't get or stay on the field, so they did not actively hurt the Pats on the field. But he was a mid-first round pick, so the expectations are not as high of the first over all pick. Mac had a decent rookie season, so there might be some hope for him, just not in New England.

I can see why someone who didn't have to watch the likes of Kenneth Sims, Eugene Chung, Chris Singleton, Ray Agnew, and Tommy Hodson play might consider Jones the biggest bust, but man were those lean years tough. The 1990 draft is just a black hole of disappointment and bad players.

Let's also consider Dennis Byrd, the 6th overall pick of the 1968 draft. Played in 14 games, had no stats and was out of football the next year. There's a case to be made for Matich being the biggest bust, but Sims is probably the guy I'd go with, .

 

[Ale Xander]

I guess if you wanted to define the biggest bust as the player that was the biggest contributor to bad play, the team's lack of success, and/or the team going from successful to unsuccessful, Mac is pretty high on the list. I would give him a pass on last season, because the pure sewage that was the offensive coaching, a bad offensive line, and limited weapons, but it's more of the same and worse this year, with slightly better coaching and offensive line. Mac makes the Patriots demonstratively worse when he is on the field and is a major part of the reason they suck. In comparison to Dowling and Dykes who couldn't get or stay on the field, so they did not actively hurt the Pats on the field. But he was a mid-first round pick, so that is a crap shoot and he had a decent rookie season, so there might be some hope for him, just not in New England.

I can see why someone who didn't have to watch the likes of Kenneth Sims, Eugene Chung, Chris Singleton, Ray Agnew, and Tommy Hodson play might consider Jones the biggest bust, but man were those lean years tough. The 1990 draft is just a black hole of disappointment and bad players.

There's a case to be made for Matich being the biggest bust, but Sims is probably the guy I'd go with.

Agnew was good
Maybe picked too high but he wasn’t a bust

 

[Old Fart Tree]

Bannable offense IMO

Maybe a week to think about what he’s done.

 

[dynomite]

Richard Seymour.
They could have gotten David Terrell or Koren Robinson. Or at least Kenyatta Walker.

This is why I come to BBTL.