In HOF if not for PED suspicions

snowmanny

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Dec 8, 2005
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I'm trying to get a sense of exactly which players would be in the HOF if not for some sort of steroid aroma (or evidence) around them.  Assume for the moment that the player had
Jeterian-level presumed innocence when it come to PEDs...is this the list?  Would all these guys be in without suspicion of steroids (and is it suspicion of steroids that is keeping, particularily, Bagwell, Piazza, Palmeiro and Rodriguez out)?  Is there anyone missing?
 
Bonds
Clemens
Sosa
McGwire
Palmeiro
I. Rodriguez
Bagwell
Piazza
 

grimshaw

the new rudy
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snowmanny said:
I'm trying to get a sense of exactly which players would be in the HOF if not for some sort of steroid aroma (or evidence) around them.  Assume for the moment that the player had
Jeterian-level presumed innocence when it come to PEDs...is this the list?  Would all these guys be in without suspicion of steroids (and is it suspicion of steroids that is keeping, particularily, Bagwell, Piazza, Palmeiro and Rodriguez out)?  Is there anyone missing?
 
Bonds
Clemens
Sosa
McGwire
Palmeiro
I. Rodriguez
Bagwell
Piazza
A nitpick on Ivan Rodriguez is that I believe he will be in very easily regardless of accusations.  Though that may be less about the era, and more about how few "1st ballot" catchers come around.  There were some whispers about Edmonds as well IIRC.  The McGwire years had some guys guilty by association including Pujols as well in McGwire's last year.  Edmonds probably would have been very borderline if not for his late career peak (6 to 8 WAR seasons from age 30-35) but he may get consideration down the line.
 
I wish I could find the source but remember reading it almost as if it were an aside.
 

WayBackVazquez

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Ivan Rodriguez would definitely not be in the Hall of Fame right now whether he was suspected of using steroids or not.
 

brs3

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Is Mark McGwire a HoFer for one statistic? He hit home runs, or he struck out. 
 
edit: Just to elaborate, I don't think he's a HoF'er, but not because of PEDs.
 

snowmanny

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WayBackVazquez said:
Ivan Rodriguez would definitely not be in the Hall of Fame right now whether he was suspected of using steroids or not.
Yes, that was an idiotic mistake.  Sorry about that.
 

Spiskins

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May 29, 2015
4
Agree on Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, IRod, Piazza.
 
Bagwell not a HoFer, either way. Sort of the Crime Dog of his era.
 
What about guys in the Hall who probably used? I'll go Rickey Henderson, Alomar, Glavine, Biggio, Big Unit. And maybe Tony La Russa!
 

Spiskins

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May 29, 2015
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IRod career stats:
.798 OPS
311 HRs
572 doubles
1354 runs
1332 RBIs
127 SBs
106 OPS+
.991 fielding
46% CS
 

Van Everyman

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Here's a cool fact:

The number of times Rafael Palmeiro had been on the disabled list in his 19 professional career until he was busted for steroids: 0

The number of times he went on the DL in the remaining two months of his professional career after was busted for using steroids: 1
 

Kliq

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A big part of the HOF/steroid debate is that because so many HR's were being hit, it made important milestones and overall numbers look less impressive, raising the bar on what numbers really where impressive. In any other era we would have marveled over the fact that Jay Buhner hit 124 HR's over a three-year span, but since it took place in the mid-90s, it barely even registers. 500 HR's used to be an automatic ticket to Cooperstown, but now guys who cleared that benchmark by a wide margin are not even sniffing the HOF. Juan Gonzalez has a higher career OPS than Harmon Killebrew, Willie Stargell,Willie McCovey and Reggie Jackson and he will never, ever, get into the HoF. Even the guys who don't have real substantial evidence against them, like Bagwell and McGriff, get hit with a penalty solely because they put up their numbers during the juice ball era. I believe that if they put up those numbers during any other big-hitting era, they would have easily gotten into the HOF.  
 

PC Drunken Friar

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Spiskins said:
Agree on Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, IRod, Piazza.
 
Bagwell not a HoFer, either way. Sort of the Crime Dog of his era.
 
What about guys in the Hall who probably used? I'll go Rickey Henderson, Alomar, Glavine, Biggio, Big Unit. And maybe Tony La Russa!
Wait, why do you think Glavine used? Or even Rickey? And Bagwell was much more the player than McGriff was (and I love McGriff)
 

CarolinaBeerGuy

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PC Drunken Friar said:
Wait, why do you think Glavine used? Or even Rickey? And Bagwell was much more the player than McGriff was (and I love McGriff)
Rickey played with McGwire and Canseco so there's automatically some suspicion around him. 
 

soxfan121

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Kliq said:
A big part of the HOF/steroid debate is that because so many HR's were being hit, it made important milestones and overall numbers look less impressive, raising the bar on what numbers really where impressive. In any other era we would have marveled over the fact that Jay Buhner hit 124 HR's over a three-year span, but since it took place in the mid-90s, it barely even registers. 500 HR's used to be an automatic ticket to Cooperstown, but now guys who cleared that benchmark by a wide margin are not even sniffing the HOF. Juan Gonzalez has a higher career OPS than Harmon Killebrew, Willie Stargell,Willie McCovey and Reggie Jackson and he will never, ever, get into the HoF. Even the guys who don't have real substantial evidence against them, like Bagwell and McGriff, get hit with a penalty solely because they put up their numbers during the juice ball era. I believe that if they put up those numbers during any other big-hitting era, they would have easily gotten into the HOF.  
 
Juan Gonzalez has lots in common with Hack Wilson and Chuck Klein: Played in a ridiculous run-scoring era, put up "unbelievable" numbers, were not considered HOF quality by contemporaries. Wilson and Klein made the HOF thanks to the Veterans Committee, well after they died and their detractors had as well. Then, it was "RBI record!" and "holy shit that 1932 season!"
 
That said, I think you're wrong. That Klein and Wilson had to wait 40 years for the context to change and their numbers to become "HOF worthy" makes it more likely that the tainted numbers of the PED era will take at least that long, probably longer, and possibly forever change the "context" in which they are viewed. McGriff, in particular, was never close to the best player in the game or one of....he was just productive in an era with more hitting than any other. Gonzalez, because of the multiple MVPs and other quirky stuff, will eventually get his day but number-churners like Buhner or McGriff will get lost with the Charlie Kellers of that era...outside the Hall.
 

Was (Not Wasdin)

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Kliq said:
A big part of the HOF/steroid debate is that because so many HR's were being hit, it made important milestones and overall numbers look less impressive, raising the bar on what numbers really where impressive. In any other era we would have marveled over the fact that Jay Buhner hit 124 HR's over a three-year span, but since it took place in the mid-90s, it barely even registers. 500 HR's used to be an automatic ticket to Cooperstown, but now guys who cleared that benchmark by a wide margin are not even sniffing the HOF. Juan Gonzalez has a higher career OPS than Harmon Killebrew, Willie Stargell,Willie McCovey and Reggie Jackson and he will never, ever, get into the HoF. Even the guys who don't have real substantial evidence against them, like Bagwell and McGriff, get hit with a penalty solely because they put up their numbers during the juice ball era. I believe that if they put up those numbers during any other big-hitting era, they would have easily gotten into the HOF.  
 
 
Before the mid-2000s, the automatic ticket was 400 homers, not 500.  For a long time (from 1991 until 2006, when McGwire first became eligible) Dave Kingman was the only eligible player to hit 400 homers and not make the HoF.  
 

Freddy Linn

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Was (Not Wasdin) said:
 
 
Before the mid-2000s, the automatic ticket was 400 homers, not 500.  For a long time (from 1991 until 2006, when McGwire first became eligible) Dave Kingman was the only eligible player to hit 400 homers and not make the HoF.  
 
Don't forget Darrell Evans, who didn't even make it past the first ballot.
 

moondog80

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brs3 said:
Is Mark McGwire a HoFer for one statistic? He hit home runs, or he struck out. 
 
edit: Just to elaborate, I don't think he's a HoF'er, but not because of PEDs.
 
Are walks a statistic?  Twice led the league in OBP.  I can see not voting him in, but the idea that he was one-dimensional is wrong.
 

threecy

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Spiskins said:
Bagwell not a HoFer, either way. Sort of the Crime Dog of his era.
Jeff Bagwell was a top player in the league for most of his career.  Big power, could hit for average, could steal bases, good defensively (including a GG), ROY, MVP.  The only thing McGriff had on him was longevity.  If not for the era, Bagwell would be a layup for the HOF.  
 

drbretto

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tims4wins said:
Not yet eligible, but I think Jim Thome may end up on this list despite his 612 HR.
 
nO WAY. tHOME'S TOO LIKEABLE. sTINK OR NOT, i THINK A LOT OF THE LIKELABLE PLAYERS ARE GETTING MORE OF A BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT OVER THE POSTER BOYS FOR THE STEROID ERA
 

tims4wins

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drbretto said:
 
nO WAY. tHOME'S TOO LIKEABLE. sTINK OR NOT, i THINK A LOT OF THE LIKELABLE PLAYERS ARE GETTING MORE OF A BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT OVER THE POSTER BOYS FOR THE STEROID ERA
 
How does that make him much different from Bagwell?
 

grimshaw

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I think Thome is an absolute no doubter among traditional stat people.  I don't recall any whispers at all and he was very steady his whole career.
 

SumnerH

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Spiskins said:
Agree on Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, IRod, Piazza.
 
Bagwell not a HoFer, either way. Sort of the Crime Dog of his era.
 
Bagwell's a superior player to Sosa, McGwire, Piazza, or Palmeiro and should be an absolute lock for the HOF.  He's 37th all-time among position players by rWAR, He was an OBP machine (career .408, 39th all time) with a ton of power (.540 slugging, 32nd all time).   If you believe in clutchiness, he had it (19th in WPA, 17th in Situational wins added).  Basically an offensive monster all around (36th all-time OPS+, 23rd all time adjusted Batting runs), while playing a more than credible 1B.
 

Spiskins

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May 29, 2015
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Glavine was a longtime player rep who fought testing the whole way, and his head got bigger. Biggio performed well beyond his ability (do you see lasershow lasting for 3000 hits at this point without help, despite being a similar player?), and his head got bigger. Big unit was the lefty rocket, just never testified and lied, and his head got bigger. Rickey, as has been said, lockered with bash bros during the rise of roids, and is still playing somewhere despite being 80, and his head got bigger. No doubt more roiders will be in hall in years to come, paving the way for veteran's committee elections of at least bonds and rocket, which i have no problem with. Ruth corked and he made it on the first ballot, despite everyone knowing this. The best players, cheats or not, should be in. So if i had a vote, arod would get it. Palmeiro already would have gotten my vote, as well as sosa and mcgwire and many more. The hof means nothing until those guys get in. I mean come on. Goose gossage is in but not palmeiro? It's absurd. Theoretically, irod would already be in if he hadn't used, because his career would've ended sooner and he wouldn't have had the stat-killing last few years. Easily a better catcher than fisk.
 

Carmen Fanzone

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Spiskins said:
Glavine was a longtime player rep who fought testing the whole way, and his head got bigger. Biggio performed well beyond his ability (do you see lasershow lasting for 3000 hits at this point without help, despite being a similar player?), and his head got bigger. Big unit was the lefty rocket, just never testified and lied, and his head got bigger. Rickey, as has been said, lockered with bash bros during the rise of roids, and is still playing somewhere despite being 80, and his head got bigger.
But tell us about their backs. Acne. Yes? No?