In Chaim Do You Trust?

Do you trust Chaim Bloom to help bring the Sox back to contention?


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Seels

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You mean the Outfield that had Kike and Verdugo, both of whom played well last year? As for the JBJ trade, there might have been another shoe that was suppose to drop that never did, but it wasn't the craziest assumption to think JBJ could provide OK offense and stellar defense. As for the pitching staff, Evoldi or Sale was suppose to be their number two. If Sale hadn't gotten injured it would have been
Sale
Evoldi
Pivetta
Houck/Whitlock
Hill

Sale did get injured and guess who stepped in? Wacha. As for the bullpen, most people acknowledge that bullpen pitchers are temperamental. One year they are great and the next they suck, but I will say it would have been nice for Bloom to step in and stop Cora from relying so heavily on the bullpen early in the season. As for the injury angle being overplayed, are you saying injuries can't affect a team? If the Dodgers or Yanks had almost their entire starting rotation on the DL do you think they would have still made the playoffs?
Having Verdugo or Kike is fine in a vacuum. Having an outfield that can't produce a single player that cap put up an 800 ops is a terrible idea.

Wacha proves, not disproves, my point. If Wacha plays at his career average level they're not even a 70 win team. There was no point where Sale could have started the season with the team.

My point is that the main reason the big league club sucks is not the injuries -- it's poor roster construction
 

Ganthem

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Apr 7, 2022
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You're the one that made the assertion of me not being satisfied with two middle relievers, not me.

And I think I did a pretty good job of articulating why I'm not a Bloom guy above. If you want to give it a read, go ahead. If you don't, we're probably done here.
You think Whitlock is a middle reliever? That is cute.
 

Ganthem

a ray of sunshine
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Apr 7, 2022
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Having Verdugo or Kike is fine in a vacuum. Having an outfield that can't produce a single player that cap put up an 800 ops is a terrible idea.

Wacha proves, not disproves, my point. If Wacha plays at his career average level they're not even a 70 win team. There was no point where Sale could have started the season with the team.

My point is that the main reason the big league club sucks is not the injuries -- it's poor roster construction
You mean the point where Sale was completely healthy in January? Also offense doesn't work that way. If you have an outfield that has three players that put up a 780 to 800 ops and then you have a couple infielders that can put up an 800 plus ops, that is enough offense. What you want is for Bloom to have a crystal ball.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Having Verdugo or Kike is fine in a vacuum. Having an outfield that can't produce a single player that cap put up an 800 ops is a terrible idea.

Wacha proves, not disproves, my point. If Wacha plays at his career average level they're not even a 70 win team. There was no point where Sale could have started the season with the team.

My point is that the main reason the big league club sucks is not the injuries -- it's poor roster construction
No idea why an .800 OPS is the magical barrier, but they put up .777 (107 OPS+) and .786 OPS (108 OPS+) the year before. Doesn't seem unreasonable to think that at least Verdugo, who put up back to back OPS over .800 in 2019-2020, couldn't improve on that.

There was a point when Sale could have started the season with the team, and that's when Wacha and Hill were signed. By the time they knew Sale would start the year on the IL (when the lockout ended), who was left to sign to replace him? The only notable free agents left at that point were Verlander (reportedly already in agreement with HOU before the lockout started), Kershaw (injury/health concerns + didn't appear likely to leave LA), and Rodon (injury/health concerns). Everyone else on the market were as uninspiring as Wacha appeared to be, and didn't do much where ever they did end up.
 

Seels

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You mean the point where Sale was completely healthy in January? Also offense doesn't work that way. If you have an outfield that has three players that put up a 780 to 800 ops and then you have a couple infielders that can put up an 800 plus ops, that is enough offense. What you want is for Bloom to have a crystal ball.
So you went in expecting that in a best case scenario they're kind of average?
Verdugo has a lifetime ops of 772. Hernandez .732, and JBJ .697. Thinking they can all put up an ops that none of them do is crazy.

Thinking Sale, a guy who had 9 starts in the previous 2 years after an entire career of being injury prone was ever 'completely healthy' is also nuts. Obviously you can't change Sale's contract. But a team that has Nick Pivetta as a #2 (or 3, if Sale ever was healthy) is not a team that is serious about competing.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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So you went in expecting that in a best case scenario they're kind of average?
Verdugo has a lifetime ops of 772. Hernandez .732, and JBJ .697. Thinking they can all put up an ops that none of them do is crazy.

Thinking Sale, a guy who had 9 starts in the previous 2 years after an entire career of being injury prone was ever 'completely healthy' is also nuts. Obviously you can't change Sale's contract. But a team that has Nick Pivetta as a #2 (or 3, if Sale ever was healthy) is not a team that is serious about competing.
Entire career? Come on. From the time he became a full time starter (2012) until his UCL tore and he required Tommy John (end of 2019), he was on the IL exactly twice. He averaged 29 starts and 192 innings per season over those eight years. That's not an entire career of being injury prone.
 

chrisfont9

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Uhh, so who was going to play left, then? You said that the only reason JBJ started in right was because of injuries, but you haven't told us whose injury caused this.
Arroyo worked into RF with JBJ in right for much of the first couple months, then he got hurt, then Story got hurt... you can look up the rest. And as pointed out above, there was a strike and the idea of adding another OF never happened. There was some idea that Duran would be in the mix before he became the full time CF. Honestly, I don't need to regurgitate the entire story of 2022.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=arroych01&t=f&year=2022
 

Seels

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Entire career? Come on. From the time he became a full time starter (2012) until his UCL tore and he required Tommy John (end of 2019), he was on the IL exactly twice. He averaged 29 starts and 192 innings per season over those eight years. That's not an entire career of being injury prone.
Changing this to last 5 years doesn't meaningfully change the argument. Coming into the year the average amount of starts he had:
27
25
0
9

Counting this guy in as anything other than a massive unknown is a mistake.

This is really just a semantic segue from the argument which is that the roster going in to 2022 was shit. A healthy Sale doesn't change the equation in any meaningful way, as it still makes the 3-4-5 of the rotation Nick Pivetta (below average) Michael Wacha (averaging 90 innings and an 87 era+ over the last 4 years), and Rich Hill, the oldest player in the league. By my count, that's Eovaldi, a giant question mark in Sale, and three 5s. If the goal is getting to .500, that's maybe good enough for it. If the goal is competing in the AL East - it wasn't.
 

scottyno

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Dec 7, 2008
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Here's a fun fact, it's possible to build your minor league system while also paying attention (and improving!) your Major League roster! I know it sounds crazy but it's absolutely true!

You don't have to completely and totally bottom out.
They were a mediocre team despite a ton of injuries, how exactly is that bottoming out?
 

kazuneko

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Arroyo worked into RF with JBJ in right for much of the first couple months, then he got hurt, then Story got hurt... you can look up the rest. And as pointed out above, there was a strike and the idea of adding another OF never happened. There was some idea that Duran would be in the mix before he became the full time CF. Honestly, I don't need to regurgitate the entire story of 2022.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=arroych01&t=f&year=2022
You weren't being asked to regurgitate the entire story of 2022, you were being asked how Verdugo could be the replacement for Renfroe when he was already slated for LF. And I guess now your answer is that the plan wasn't Verdugo (even though you just wrote that) but actually a JBJ/Arroyo platoon and that plan got ruined by injuries. Really? Remember, this all started with people saying that expecting anything out of JBJ was a mistake, and you responding that that only happened because of injuries. And yet now you are saying JBJ (and his .497 OPS) was slated to be the strong side of a platoon in RF and that his planned platoon partner was a career 2B (without a single appearance in the OF before the season) with less than 250 ABs combined in the past two seasons. And I guess it was that guy going down to injury that ruined this brilliant plan.
Really? Are you trying to defend or criticize Bloom?
 
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streeter88

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One of the angrier threads I have read recently… I voted No even though I think Bloom probably has one more offseason in which to work his magic.

As I write this, I am trying to think what combination of events would actually restore my faith in him - and how likely that is to happen.

If he manages to resign Bogaerts and / or Devers, finds 1-2 good SPs, offloads JD, and fills the other roster holes mentioned upthread, then I think the off-season would be a success. Chance of all that happening? Near 0.

And please don’t ask me who I think all those pieces are -didn’t end well last time, and not the focus of this thread.
 

Ganthem

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One of the angrier threads I have read recently… I voted No even though I think Bloom probably has one more offseason in which to work his magic.

As I write this, I am trying to think what combination of events would actually restore my faith in him - and how likely that is to happen.

If he manages to resign Bogaerts and / or Devers, finds 1-2 good SPs, offloads JD, and fills the other roster holes mentioned upthread, then I think the off-season would be a success. Chance of all that happening? Near 0.

And please don’t ask me who I think all those pieces are -didn’t end well last time, and not the focus of this thread.
So basically you made up your mind and no one and no fact will change it. Bravo
 

streeter88

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So basically you made up your mind and no one and no fact will change it. Bravo
That’s a bit harsh I think. What I intended to write was that if Bloom has a good off-season, then he should continue with his plan.

I just don’t think that he’ll be able to pull it off though. And that’s a combination of watching what he’s done this past two years, and watching right now the lack of progress with either of our two star players that it would seem the Red Sox desperately want back. And for me the success of this off-season hinges on getting at least one of them signed long term, and finding 1-2 SP as well.

I don’t think that qualifies as I’ve “made up my mind”, but he’s got a long road ahead.

And anyway, isn’t that the point of this thread?
 

Ganthem

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Apr 7, 2022
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That’s a bit harsh I think. What I intended to write was that if Bloom has a good off-season, then he should continue with his plan.

I just don’t think that he’ll be able to pull it off though. And that’s a combination of watching what he’s done this past two years, and watching right now the lack of progress with either of our two star players that it would seem the Red Sox desperately want back. And for me the success of this off-season hinges on getting at least one of them signed long term, and finding 1-2 SP as well.

I don’t think that qualifies as I’ve “made up my mind”, but he’s got a long road ahead.

And anyway, isn’t that the point of this thread?
Wait wait. Your first post said he has to fill additional holes mentioned above. You also mentioned offloading JDM. That is an odd use of wording for a free agent. So are you saying in your second post that he has less to do? Also my apologies. For some reason, I read near zero for absolute zero.
 

streeter88

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@Ganthem Thanks for the re-read - appreciate it.

But I will be super clear here. Let JD go (edit without a QO). Tick - one less task for Bloom.

Yes I did say there are other roster holes Bloom needs to fill (OF, BP pieces - maybe 1B/DH to replace JD and shore up whatever they’ve got going at 1B - again others have done this better than me), but I do think Bloom is going to struggle more with the headline needs I listed.

Whatever. Go your hardest Bloom, and we’ll see in the spring whether it was enough.
 

OCD SS

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For the people voting "no", how much of your discouragement do you think comes down to player performance? How much do you allow that any GM can only put a process in place, but they can't guarantee the results on feild? Following that, how do you deal with the limitations placed on any process by outside forces (CBA limits, ownership imposed spending limits, etc)?

My own thought is that confidence in Bloom is unnecesarily down after a bad year, corresponding to sentiment being up regarding the team after the playoff run in 2021 (there's a reason I put the expected win total where I did in the preseason prediction game)
 

JM3

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Changing this to last 5 years doesn't meaningfully change the argument. Coming into the year the average amount of starts he had:
27
25
0
9

Counting this guy in as anything other than a massive unknown is a mistake.

This is really just a semantic segue from the argument which is that the roster going in to 2022 was shit. A healthy Sale doesn't change the equation in any meaningful way, as it still makes the 3-4-5 of the rotation Nick Pivetta (below average) Michael Wacha (averaging 90 innings and an 87 era+ over the last 4 years), and Rich Hill, the oldest player in the league. By my count, that's Eovaldi, a giant question mark in Sale, and three 5s. If the goal is getting to .500, that's maybe good enough for it. If the goal is competing in the AL East - it wasn't.
I think they also planned to have Whitlock & Houck as starters, but... what's your point?

That 3-5 were all acquired by Bloom at almost no cost & had to be because of a lack of financial flexibility out of his control. The Red Sox had 0 minor league pitchers in the pipeline ready to actually come in & contribute at even a replacement level at low cost except Bello later in the season. So your options are:

1) Trade away your lower minor stuff to get reasonably priced pitching, but stay on the revolving cycle of no cheap talent infusion.

2) Pay a lot of money in free agency for starting pitching which may or may not work out & may or may not cause more dead money in the future, & go well into the tax when your team still has other holes that you would also need to fill somehow.

3) Try to turn water into wine & hope for the best while you make sure the team never has to deal with the bloated residual payroll issues that you inherited.

I also remember all the crap Bloom for for not resigning ERod (0.1 WAR for $14m this year with a potentially problematic player option after next year).

They were right around the tax threshold...tell me the moves they could have made, even in hindsight, that make them a contender in '22 without decimating their future?

You can't win consistently in MLB without building the minor league system out & having an array of promising players in the pipeline at all times. That's what the Dodgers, Astros & Yankees have in common, & that will be what the Red Sox have in common, too - along with the financial wherewithal to consistently compete & maximize their major league roster, too.

It is 100% a process & it's always crazy to me that after 4 World Series in the past 18 years, people are still too grumpy to have a little patience in going toward a model that every other successful franchise has already gone toward, & a guy doing it who has shown the ability to hit on a really nice % of these projects necessitated by circumstances beyond his control.
 

joe dokes

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The irony is that Wacha, Hill and Pivetta all turned out to be serviceable as the 3rd 4th and 5th best starters on the team.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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The current roster has a handful of well above average players; there’s been a drain on the major league talent the last few years and most of the prospects in the minors are a ways away. Let’s see what is done in the off-season, but what divisional foes do we think the Sox jump over next year? This org has a ton of work to do this off-season, and I don’t think recognizing that suggests entitlement, lack of patience, or makes one a Bloom hater. It’s just the reality of the situation the org is in. They are attempting to rebuild like many teams in the league, let’s hope it works.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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I went ahead and put on a tinfoil hat before posting this, so I'm aware of how conspiracy theory-ish it sounds, but...

Is it even remotely possible that Bloom is having a "tougher" time finding the same success and luck he had in Tampa simply because he's now with Boston, a crown jewel franchise for MLB, and is now seen as more of a "threat" to the league? That's poorly worded, but, essentially what I mean is that everyone and their third cousin knows that TB operates on a bit of a shoestring budget and that the secret to their success (which, thus far, has not resulted in any league titles) is working the angles and finding the guys who will play well enough as a team to the point where multiple superstars don't really need to be brought it from the outside. Their drafting and developing allowed them to turn a lot of high draft picks and trade acquisitions into contending teams in a tough division.

By contrast, everybody knows that Boston has deep pockets and does not suffer from the same budget concerns. They are also far more successful than Tampa this century, at least in terms of titles won. Is it possible that Bloom is finding less friendly deal options because now he's seen as more of a danger than he ever was in Tampa?
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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I don’t think so. Look at the Rays staff; filled with pitchers that were freely available in the past year or two. I think it’s all about identifying the right players and then developing them, though. Not sure how you parse out credit for what; but look at a guy like Jeffrey Springs; both teams identified him as a player they wanted but one got a lot more out of him than the other. Is it a fluke? Or something else? Who knows, but the Sox seem pretty satisfied with their coaching staff.

The Rays seem to make a lot of trades and appear to win most of them. The Sox don’t make as many, as far as I can tell.
 

JM3

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The current roster has a handful of well above average players; there’s been a drain on the major league talent the last few years and most of the prospects in the minors are a ways away. Let’s see what is done in the off-season, but what divisional foes do we think the Sox jump over next year? This org has a ton of work to do this off-season, and I don’t think recognizing that suggests entitlement, lack of patience, or makes one a Bloom hater. It’s just the reality of the situation the org is in. They are attempting to rebuild like many teams in the league, let’s hope it works.
I find you more of a Bloom-centrist & have no issue with your postings on the subject even if I generally disagree. A fair % of the board, though, has these unrealistic demands & expectations of things that aren't actually possible.

But yes... the team is going to be worse than it was in 2018, probably for a long time. The Red Sox really went all-in & had the perfect storm of young players still not making what they would eventually make & older veterans earning their large salaries, but about to go into the largely negative portion...& absolutely no almost ready minor leaguers to replace anyone.

I think "wait & see" is a completely rational opinion because Bloom hasn't had a chance to do the whole actually making a team consistently excellent thing, & until he does there's no proof that he is the guy to do that. I just happen to be very optimistic on that front because I think the vast majority of things he has done within the circumstances he has had were very smart.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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I always wonder why some players excel in some places but flop in others. I wonder if it really just does come down to the relationship between the pitcher and the coaching staff, or the pitcher and the catcher, or even just the player himself. A lot of these players are still developing and maturing when they enter the league (studies have suggested that our brains don't become "finished products" until well into our 20s, maybe even as late as early 30s in some) and, as someone who knows that not every student does well with every teacher, I wonder if comfort level has more to do with success than talent. Maybe Springs always had that ability, but couldn't unlock it with this coaching staff or with his catchers until he changed both by going to Tampa, where every pitcher is seemingly an act in training.

Maybe it really is as simple as it just clicks better for some guys when they have the right environmental factors around them, whereas other guys don't even care what day it is and are ready to go as soon as the ump gives the signal. The psychology of baseball players is fascinating.

Anyway, that's enough of a tangent.

If Bloom can't, or won't, sign Devers and X to mutually beneficial terms, then he's probably not long for this job. That tandem is going to be his biggest crucible.
 

cannonball 1729

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Changing this to last 5 years doesn't meaningfully change the argument. Coming into the year the average amount of starts he had:
27
25
0
9

Counting this guy in as anything other than a massive unknown is a mistake.
I feel like it's worth noting that even though Sale didn't spend much time on the IL before his surgery, he had a habit of basically falling apart every September, which is where he got the reputation for not being very durable (and why people here weren't happy with the extension when he signed it). His career OPS allowed in September is .750, which is a.) not particularly good, and b.) 100 points worse than his OPS allowed for any other month on the calendar. The only year where he had a good September for the Red Sox was 2018, which happened because the Sox managed his workload carefully and cut his IP down from 200+ to 150. So I don't think it was unreasonable to be skeptical of Sale's durability.
 
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Apisith

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I find you more of a Bloom-centrist & have no issue with your postings on the subject even if I generally disagree. A fair % of the board, though, has these unrealistic demands & expectations of things that aren't actually possible.

But yes... the team is going to be worse than it was in 2018, probably for a long time. The Red Sox really went all-in & had the perfect storm of young players still not making what they would eventually make & older veterans earning their large salaries, but about to go into the largely negative portion...& absolutely no almost ready minor leaguers to replace anyone.

I think "wait & see" is a completely rational opinion because Bloom hasn't had a chance to do the whole actually making a team consistently excellent thing, & until he does there's no proof that he is the guy to do that. I just happen to be very optimistic on that front because I think the vast majority of things he has done within the circumstances he has had were very smart.
If the standard is 2018 then it’s going to be basically impossible for Bloom to beat because that was one of the best baseball teams in major league history. Great regular season, dominant in the postseason against two 100-win teams and then beat the always-competitive Dodgers.

I’m more hopeful that Bloom can get this team to what Theo always did: 95 wins every year, get into the playoffs and compete. Ironically if Bloom can do what Cashman has done, I would be very happy.
 

JM3

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If the standard is 2018 then it’s going to be basically impossible for Bloom to beat because that was one of the best baseball teams in major league history. Great regular season, dominant in the postseason against two 100-win teams and then beat the always-competitive Dodgers.

I’m more hopeful that Bloom can get this team to what Theo always did: 95 wins every year, get into the playoffs and compete. Ironically if Bloom can do what Cashman has done, I would be very happy.
This may be a dumb opinion, but I do think there's also somewhat of a secret sauce that can improve a team's chances in the post season as it's a slightly different game & in that regard I'd much rather emulate the Astros than the Yankees because I don't think that part is fully a fluke.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Is the secret sauce just having really good pitching? I mean, is there any Sox starter who would make the Stros rotation? Their lineup also didn’t score a ton of runs this year (a few more than the Sox), but they do have a good amount of power.
 

JM3

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Is the secret sauce just having really good pitching? I mean, is there any Sox starter who would make the Stros rotation? Their lineup also didn’t score a ton of runs this year (a few more than the Sox), but they do have a good amount of power.
IT'S A SECRET.

Obviously really good pitching is part of it, & really good hitting.

Some players have skillsets that allow them to thrive against other good players & others stat pad against bad players.

I think other things like speed & defense become more important, too, as the margins get finer & you can't just mash your way out of trouble consistently.

I think Bloom doing things like acquiring a bunch of speed & defense types of guys throughout the organization & taking flyers on guys like Paxton who could be an impact playoff arm shows that he has a playoff success plan in mind as part of the rebuild.

But there's a lot of nuance to it & who knows if I'm even right.
 

Ale Xander

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Is the secret sauce just having really good pitching? I mean, is there any Sox starter who would make the Stros rotation? Their lineup also didn’t score a ton of runs this year (a few more than the Sox), but they do have a good amount of power.
No but JD would have made their lineup as a DH. Still bummed we didn’t trade him there for some prospects like we did with CV
 

Ale Xander

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Is the secret sauce just having really good pitching? I mean, is there any Sox starter who would make the Stros rotation? Their lineup also didn’t score a ton of runs this year (a few more than the Sox), but they do have a good amount of power.
No but JD would have made their lineup as a DH. Still bummed we didn’t trade him there for some prospects like we did with CV
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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No but JD would have made their lineup as a DH. Still bummed we didn’t trade him there for some prospects like we did with CV
He picked a bad time to go completely cold at the plate. If he'd hit a couple of those home runs he hit after the deadline before it passed, maybe they get more than the offer for organizational flotsam and jetsam. I still think they should have taken the offer if it meant getting under the LT threshold, but maybe that wasn't part of the deal and they were going to have to kick in some money to make it worth the Mets' (or whomever's) while.

I think the Mets would have LOVED to have him in the NLDS, but I'm not sure he gets them out of that series with a W since it was their pitchers who were mortal against SD, but we'll never know now.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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No but JD would have made their lineup as a DH. Still bummed we didn’t trade him there for some prospects like we did with CV
This assumes the Astros were interested in Martinez, which maybe they weren't. Brantley was on the IL but had not yet been transferred to the 60-day IL, so perhaps there was hope he'd be back. Plus they acquired Mancini who obviously was going to split time between DH and 1B. Not a lot of room to add JD.
 

jon abbey

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I went ahead and put on a tinfoil hat before posting this, so I'm aware of how conspiracy theory-ish it sounds, but...

Is it even remotely possible that Bloom is having a "tougher" time finding the same success and luck he had in Tampa simply because he's now with Boston, a crown jewel franchise for MLB, and is now seen as more of a "threat" to the league? That's poorly worded, but, essentially what I mean is that everyone and their third cousin knows that TB operates on a bit of a shoestring budget and that the secret to their success (which, thus far, has not resulted in any league titles) is working the angles and finding the guys who will play well enough as a team to the point where multiple superstars don't really need to be brought it from the outside. Their drafting and developing allowed them to turn a lot of high draft picks and trade acquisitions into contending teams in a tough division.

By contrast, everybody knows that Boston has deep pockets and does not suffer from the same budget concerns. They are also far more successful than Tampa this century, at least in terms of titles won. Is it possible that Bloom is finding less friendly deal options because now he's seen as more of a danger than he ever was in Tampa?
I think if everything was identical but BOS was a smaller low-pressure market, Bloom would have come in, looked at their situation and where the other teams in the division stood, and done a full teardown/rebuild a la HOU/BAL. Not just trading Betts, but Devers and Bogaerts and anyone else with value, and I think if that had happened, BOS would be in better position today (no need to argue this either way as we will never know).

But the owner/fanbase would not allow that in BOS, same as they wouldn't allow it in NY, for better or worse.
 

snowmanny

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Yeah I voted that I need more time because, as I’ve said before, his strategy seems to be building towards 2024 more than 2023.

And I have some general faith in John Henry insisting on a turnaround at some point, so if the strategy isn’t going well Chaim will adjust (or be fired).

As for being two games away from the WS in 2021, that was a blast but as soon as the season was over I thought they looked like a fourth place team in the AL East for 2022.Therefore it is sort of hard to know how much credit to give him for that: I suppose that it gives me some faith that if they are in serious contention he will go for it at the trade deadline.
 

chrisfont9

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You weren't being asked to regurgitate the entire story of 2022, you were being asked how Verdugo could be the replacement for Renfroe when he was already slated for LF. And I
Really? Are you trying to defend or criticize Bloom?
My only point with Bloom is that he didn't acquire JBJ to do anything other than maybe sneak out one decent season, at least defensively, before he was let go, and that the only players involved in that transaction that Bloom cares about at all are the prospects because he is trying to rebuild the franchise from the ground up. They've made it pretty clear, and for people to be continually trying to judge Bloom's performance on a year's results when he didn't push *any* of his chips in seems pointless.
 

Just a bit outside

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I think the one thing mostly left out of this discussion is setting up the player development system. It seems that a lot more minor league pitchers made jumps this year. If Bloom can set up a system of development that the Astros, Yankees, Dodgers, etc have done that will be the key to sustained success. Player acquisition is important but teams like the Astros wouldn’t be where they are without player development.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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Can someone tell me how Bloom’s player development system is different than any other baseball executive’s PDS in the last 70 years?

We keep hearing that we have to let Bloom’s Player Development System take root and bear fruit. What is his special sauce? What is he doing differently than Dave Dombrowski or Ben Cherington or Theo Epstein or Dan Duquette or Lou Gorman?

And the answer is, “well he doesn’t want to trade good young players for mediocre or old major leaguers.” Because that’s not a radically new or interesting PDS. It’s what Heads of Baseball Ops have been doing for almost 100 years.

I get that this post may read as snarky, but it’s genuine. I feel as if I’m missing something here.

Duquette delved into Latin America and Asia and New England looking for hidden players in places that people didn’t really look on. Epstein was an early proponent of Moneyball and tried to use the money of the Sox to blow his competitors out of the water. Cherington hoarded everything in sight. Dombrowski was old school. Some of these above philosophies are new, some not so much.

What is Bloom’s Player Development Strategy that everyone is so breathless about?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Can someone tell me how Bloom’s player development system is different than any other baseball executive’s PDS in the last 70 years?

We keep hearing that we have to let Bloom’s Player Development System take root and bear fruit. What is his special sauce? What is he doing differently than Dave Dombrowski or Ben Cherington or Theo Epstein or Dan Duquette or Lou Gorman?

And the answer is, “well he doesn’t want to trade good young players for mediocre or old major leaguers.” Because that’s not a radically new or interesting PDS. It’s what Heads of Baseball Ops have been doing for almost 100 years.

I get that this post may read as snarky, but it’s genuine. I feel as if I’m missing something here.

Duquette delved into Latin America and Asia and New England looking for hidden players in places that people didn’t really look on. Epstein was an early proponent of Moneyball and tried to use the money of the Sox to blow his competitors out of the water. Cherington hoarded everything in sight. Dombrowski was old school. Some of these above philosophies are new, some not so much.

What is Bloom’s Player Development Strategy that everyone is so breathless about?
I don't think his system or strategy needs to necessarily special or different from other teams to require patience to see whether or not it bears fruit. This isn't the NBA or the NFL where a GM can get near instant results from his first draft. Doesn't matter who's at the helm, it's generally going to take 3-4 years at minimum before we see what kind of talent he's able to find and develop. It took a year and a half for Theo's first draftee to make a major league appearance (the immortal Abe Alvarez) but it was nearly three years before a draftee of consequence broke in (Jonathan Papelbon). Considering Bloom got five bites at the apple (4 signed) in his first draft compared to 52 picks for Theo (34 signed), I doubt the fruit will be forthcoming quite as fast. But it has to come eventually, and that's when he should be judged on it.
 

Ganthem

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Apr 7, 2022
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Can someone tell me how Bloom’s player development system is different than any other baseball executive’s PDS in the last 70 years?

We keep hearing that we have to let Bloom’s Player Development System take root and bear fruit. What is his special sauce? What is he doing differently than Dave Dombrowski or Ben Cherington or Theo Epstein or Dan Duquette or Lou Gorman?

And the answer is, “well he doesn’t want to trade good young players for mediocre or old major leaguers.” Because that’s not a radically new or interesting PDS. It’s what Heads of Baseball Ops have been doing for almost 100 years.

I get that this post may read as snarky, but it’s genuine. I feel as if I’m missing something here.

Duquette delved into Latin America and Asia and New England looking for hidden players in places that people didn’t really look on. Epstein was an early proponent of Moneyball and tried to use the money of the Sox to blow his competitors out of the water. Cherington hoarded everything in sight. Dombrowski was old school. Some of these above philosophies are new, some not so much.

What is Bloom’s Player Development Strategy that everyone is so breathless about?
Bloom is trying to get the farm system built back up to the point where he can start promoting players to provide a cheap compliment to the more expensive players he will eventually sign, or to trade some of the prospects for young, cheapish talent. Also, by having a farm system that can provide value, either through trade or promotion, it allows Bloom to make big free agent signings without worrying too much about the signing not working out. For example, if the Yanks sign Judge they are not going to be overly concerned if he turns into Eric Hosmer as unlikely as that is. They can either promote a player from the minors who can provide some of the of value from Judge for cheap or they can use the prospects to trade for talent that can do the same thing. It is kind of team building 101.
 

chrisfont9

Member
SoSH Member
Can someone tell me how Bloom’s player development system is different than any other baseball executive’s PDS in the last 70 years?

We keep hearing that we have to let Bloom’s Player Development System take root and bear fruit. What is his special sauce? What is he doing differently than Dave Dombrowski or Ben Cherington or Theo Epstein or Dan Duquette or Lou Gorman?

And the answer is, “well he doesn’t want to trade good young players for mediocre or old major leaguers.” Because that’s not a radically new or interesting PDS. It’s what Heads of Baseball Ops have been doing for almost 100 years.

I get that this post may read as snarky, but it’s genuine. I feel as if I’m missing something here.

Duquette delved into Latin America and Asia and New England looking for hidden players in places that people didn’t really look on. Epstein was an early proponent of Moneyball and tried to use the money of the Sox to blow his competitors out of the water. Cherington hoarded everything in sight. Dombrowski was old school. Some of these above philosophies are new, some not so much.

What is Bloom’s Player Development Strategy that everyone is so breathless about?
You want to know what's in the black box, right? I feel like we can't really answer your question unless we work for the team and have all of their proprietary info and whatnot.
 
Last edited:

Just a bit outside

Member
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Apr 6, 2011
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Monument, CO
Can someone tell me how Bloom’s player development system is different than any other baseball executive’s PDS in the last 70 years?

We keep hearing that we have to let Bloom’s Player Development System take root and bear fruit. What is his special sauce? What is he doing differently than Dave Dombrowski or Ben Cherington or Theo Epstein or Dan Duquette or Lou Gorman?

And the answer is, “well he doesn’t want to trade good young players for mediocre or old major leaguers.” Because that’s not a radically new or interesting PDS. It’s what Heads of Baseball Ops have been doing for almost 100 years.

I get that this post may read as snarky, but it’s genuine. I feel as if I’m missing something here.

Duquette delved into Latin America and Asia and New England looking for hidden players in places that people didn’t really look on. Epstein was an early proponent of Moneyball and tried to use the money of the Sox to blow his competitors out of the water. Cherington hoarded everything in sight. Dombrowski was old school. Some of these above philosophies are new, some not so much.

What is Bloom’s Player Development Strategy that everyone is so breathless about?
All that you mention above is about player acquisition. Player development is what do you do with the players once you get them. It seems that some organizations have a method that is working better than others. The Astros, Guardians, and Rays churn them out pitchers every year. I think @jon abbey could give better insight on how the Yankees develop pitching. The Royals are at the other end of the spectrum as they spent a lot of draft capital on pitching and none of them improved.

My hope is that the Sox with Bloom do know a little more about developing pitching once they are drafted. He spent his high picks on hitting and we hope they meet expectations. There is more out there about improving pitching through mechanics, pitch shape, spin, and sequencing that successful teams have used to turn mediocre prospects into above average major league pitchers. It seems that more minor league pitchers in the Sox system made jumps this year and the hope is that becomes normal operating procedure to create a pitching pipeline.
 

jon abbey

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All that you mention above is about player acquisition. Player development is what do you do with the players once you get them. It seems that some organizations have a method that is working better than others. The Astros, Guardians, and Rays churn them out pitchers every year. I think @jon abbey could give better insight on how the Yankees develop pitching. The Royals are at the other end of the spectrum as they spent a lot of draft capital on pitching and none of them improved.
Of course a lot of this isn’t really public info but one huge thing NY did is they completely revamped a lot of their coaching structure a few years ago. I detailed it a bunch here:

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/hiring-all-the-kids-nys-coaching-youth-wave.29282/
 

streeter88

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Apr 2, 2006
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Duquette delved into Latin America and Asia and New England looking for hidden players in places that people didn’t really look on. Epstein was an early proponent of Moneyball and tried to use the money of the Sox to blow his competitors out of the water. Cherington hoarded everything in sight.
What is Bloom’s Player Development Strategy that everyone is so breathless about?
I’m curious about that as well. So far Bloom has not been very good at resigning our big stars, and the board seems to be split on whether he is doing a good job at value recognition in filling out the lineup every offseason.

So what is the “secret sauce”? The whole Bloom promise rests on it I think.
 

Niastri

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SoSH Member
My only point with Bloom is that he didn't acquire JBJ to do anything other than maybe sneak out one decent season, at least defensively, before he was let go, and that the only players involved in that transaction that Bloom cares about at all are the prospects because he is trying to rebuild the franchise from the ground up. They've made it pretty clear, and for people to be continually trying to judge Bloom's performance on a year's results when he didn't push *any* of his chips in seems pointless.
I would have liked him to get under the tax level and pick up at least something for guys that weren't going to help us anyway. GMs need to be successful when selling too.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Jan 13, 2021
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I’ve said it before but I think Bloom is largely flexible and opportunistic whereas Dombrowski was very focused. DD identified needs and addressed them as soon as possible. Bloom seems to be more open minded, looks into a lot of different things, but appears to be less bold and decisive. Last off-season, Bloom was in on every one, landed a good player in Story, but seemed to run out of time and left a lot of the teams needs unmet; whereas DD realized the team needed a closer or starter or whatever and boom, deal was done. Maybe he overpaid here and there but there wasn’t a lot dicking around.

So this off-season should be fascinating in that there’s a million different directions the team could go in given all the needs. It’s the first “normal” off-season which should help.
 

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat

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So far Bloom has not been very good at resigning our big stars
This seems a little extreme at this snapshot in time. The Mookie thing has been relitigated to oblivion, and maybe let's wait until Xander and Devers are actually not re-signed before coming to this conclusion.

Unless I am missing other big stars that he hasn't been very good at re-signing.
 

jon abbey

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Bloom's main job when taking over was simply to restock the system that Dombrowski had left ridiculously depleted (not really because he moved prospects, because he seemed to just not pay attention? I talked about this here a few times when he was still GM, it really confused me as it doesn't have to be one or the other).

Bloom has been great in terms of bulk prospect restocking, I think the jury is out for him in pretty much every other aspect. One part of the job that you almost never have to deal with in an organization like TB is deciding who to pay big money to and when, and that is hard. Cashman is not great at that part either.