If Pats signed Incognito, you'd think...

dcmissle · Sep 7, 2014

And soxfan said EYE was trolling ...

I think: whatever it takes

If they can't get the o-line play they need, nothing else will matter. That "same pattern' you refer to has been known to be toxic at least since February 2008.

Darnell's Son · Sep 7, 2014

I voted necessary. I voted that way, because if BB and the staff think bringing him in will improve the OL play, then I trust them. I don't want to watch another game like we had today.

Yaz4Ever · Sep 7, 2014

I voted great move. Not because I like him as a person, but I think the move would significantly improve the offensive line. Today's game made that look like a necessity to me.

Stitch01 · Sep 7, 2014

I don't think he's very good. I'd rather trade for someone better if we decide that we need guard help and its worth spending resources.

jose melendez · Sep 7, 2014

I voted awful move.

I have no doubt that he'd help on the field, but I don't care. The guys a total, unapologetic, shithead. I don't want to route for him.

( . ) ( . ) and (_!_) · Sep 7, 2014

If they think it will help win football games then sign him. If they don't think he will help then don't. Pretty simple. I watch the pats to have fun and drink with friends. I don't need this team to be a moral compass.

Bongorific · Sep 7, 2014

( . ) ( . ) and (_!_) said:
If they think it will help win football games then sign him. If they don't think he will help then don't. Pretty simple. I watch the pats to have fun and drink with friends. I don't need this team to be a moral compass.

No, but this team seemed to be better when they were.

EvilEmpire · Sep 7, 2014

BB and his staff can handle Incognito. He's not a murderer, just an asshole. One who is already on thin ice with the league. I doubt the Patriots would have any problems with him at all.

( . ) ( . ) and (_!_) · Sep 7, 2014

Bongorific said:
No, but this team seemed to be better when they were.

You know how douchey that sounds right?

blick38 · Sep 7, 2014

jose melendez said:
I voted awful move.

I have no doubt that he'd help on the field, but I don't care. The guys a total, unapologetic, shithead. I don't want to route for him.

So if he apologized, that would change your mind?

E5 Yaz · Sep 7, 2014

I voted panic move. The line had a terrible start to the season, true enough; but it wasn't the only issue out there. It's just too early to move rashly; this sounds like one of those Red Sox trade threads where we learn someone with name recognition is on the market and suddenly he's the answer.

Plus, as stated above, there's no indication that Incognito is really all that good.

dcmissle · Sep 7, 2014

Bongorific said:
No, but this team seemed to be better when they were.

Whatever happens, we should not be writing Ron Borges' column:

Arrogance > dealing best o-lineman, also a character guy, for "value";

"Gulp" > replacing him with a "thug and hoodlum" (in Parcells' words)

twibnotes · Sep 7, 2014

I voted necessary move.

We rooted for Aaron Hernandez for godsakes. Realize we had no knowledge of his horrific behavior, but we do know there are good guys and bad guys in the league. Within reason, I'm in favor of anything that will keep Brady upright.

Jimy Hendrix · Sep 7, 2014

Incognito was part of some pretty garbage Miami lines even before his off-field behavior caused them to collapse even further.

It's a line with some new players and a new coach. Adding another new player won't magically make it gel faster, nor will it make the crappy interior guys have their jobs get taken any faster.

Old Fart Tree · Sep 7, 2014

I voted for all of the top 4. I think the line's performance today was panic-worthy. He seems like a raging asshole and I don't care if he can help keep the quarterback upright.

jose melendez · Sep 7, 2014

blick38 said:
So if he apologized, that would change your mind?

Maybe if I felt like he'd learned anything from the entire incident.

I don't like cheering for people I hate. I just don't. They can be shitheads, but I'd like to be blissfully unaware.

Toe Nash · Sep 7, 2014

To my eyes Vollmer was just as bad as any of the interior linemen today, if not worse. Wake is probably their best rusher but I think that this line gets killed with Mankins out there today.

So that could mean a few things:
-The line hasn't gelled, and rotating linemen at right guard didn't help
-The Dolphins rush is great
-None of the interior linemen are very good and the tackles have regressed
-The loss of Scar ruined their cohesiveness
-Missing Mankins messed up assignments leading to missed blocks, or Brady wasn't good at identifying blitzes
-Some combination of all of the above

I don't see any of these possible problems really being solved by adding Incognito, especially when that introduces possible character questions. I think it's sink or swim, and you hope the current line gels / plays better while perhaps adjusting the offense to get balls out quicker. You're not going to have many games at that temperature and humidity at least. Plus, they still have Kline and Stork to try who could possibly help before having to go outside the organization.

Offensive lines can absolutely be works in progress for a while. The 2012 Ravens are a good example as they didn't really come together until the playoffs, and then Flacco was barely touched: http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-01-06/sports/bs-sp-preston-ravens-0107-20130106_1_kelechi-osemele-jah-reid-bryant-mckinnie

You obviously have to play better than today to get to the playoffs, but as long as they keep improving I won't be too worried.

Phragle · Sep 7, 2014

I'd rather pay Carl Nicks to do some rehab in Europe or the TB12 rehab center.

Super Nomario · Sep 7, 2014

I said "panic move." All of BB's actions suggests he's fine with the interior OL talent they have - they didn't use a high pick (just Stork in the 4th and Halapio in the 6th) or sign anyone of note (just re-upped Wendell for 2 years / $3.2 M), and they traded Mankins. If they sign Incognito now, what have they been doing these last few months?

That said, as long as it's short money (veteran minimum or just a tick more) and they can cut him if he's a problem (on the field or otherwise), it's not going to bother me in and of itself.

twibnotes · Sep 7, 2014

Super Nomario said:
I said "panic move." All of BB's actions suggests he's fine with the interior OL talent they have - they didn't use a high pick (just Stork in the 4th and Halapio in the 6th) or sign anyone of note (just re-upped Wendell for 2 years / $3.2 M), and they traded Mankins. If they sign Incognito now, what have they been doing these last few months?

This is true...and so odd to me. Even if BB feels like this line, which clearly has issues in its current state, will improve, I'm surprised he's not more worried about leaving Brady exposed for even a portion of the year. I just don't get why the O line hasn't been the top offseason priority. You know that if Brady has time to throw, you're going to make a run and compete for a SB in all likelihood.

Morgan's Magic Snowplow · Sep 7, 2014

twibnotes said:
This is true...and so odd to me. Even if BB feels like this line, which clearly has issues in its current state, will improve, I'm surprised he's not more worried about leaving Brady exposed for even a portion of the year. I just don't get why the O line hasn't been the top offseason priority. You know that if Brady has time to throw, you're going to make a run and compete for a SB in all likelihood.

Well, he's probably counting on pretty good tackle play, which isn't unreasonable given the personnel but obviously didn't happen today. Then he probably figures that the interior will improve over the course of the year.

I don't think the OL plan was all that bad in general. They just sucked today.

teddykgb · Sep 7, 2014

Can they get Jonathan Martin also? Are any of the linemen from the Little Giants available?

In all seriousness, they need to be looking at all options immediately. What happened today threatens the entire season in many ways. A lot of the trouble seemed to come from the tackles, not the guards (but really they all sucked I think) so I don't know if Incognito is the answer, but if BB thought they were good enough I'd like to think he's a smart enough man to process this new information

soxfan121 · Sep 7, 2014

Hey...without looking it up, who played LG today?

Bonus question: who gave up the sacks?

mwonow · Sep 7, 2014

I\m fine with "awful" or "panic." Incognito is a thug and a bully, and as Jose said, who wants to root for that? Also, he's not very good. And additionally, he's always been a magnet for penalties, and I doubt he's going to start getting benefit-of-the-doubt type calls.

Yeah, the O line looks like a problem. Yes, help would be great. Nope, Incognito doesn't count as help.

Is there any way to talk Scar out of retirement? 'Cause if the problem is 5-guys-wide, maybe pointing at a FA guard makes less sense than pointing at the coach responsible for the unit...

Tony C · Sep 8, 2014

soxfan121 said:
Hey...without looking it up, who played LG today?

Bonus question: who gave up the sacks?

Excellent questions. The troubling part is that the tackles seemed to be more the issue than not. I don't think anyone really knows how to address Solder: if he continues to suck, signing 10 Incognitos won't help. We'll just be fucked.

That said, if Cannon is better at T than at guard (he was really bad in the running game today to my eyes, but good in protection), then I guess Incognito would give them the G they can use so that Cannon can be shifted to T.

In other words, there are no mean nasty pretty good OTs out there the way there is with Incognito at G, so he'd bolster the corps as a whole. I guess.

By the way, how many snaps did Fleming play for Vollmer? I didn't notice Fleming except when he came in, but that might be a good thing.

ZP1 · Sep 8, 2014

The way I look at things, every hit Brady takes as a result of subpar OL play is a percentage chance of Brady suffering a season ending injury. With that in mind, I'd take an OL full of scumbags if it meant the difference between a healthy Brady and a Brady going through another round of ACL reconstruction. Besides the fact that rooting for athletes because you're under the impression that they're good people is usually just setting yourself up for profound disappointment down the line when you see evidence to the contrary. Seriously, while it doesn't apply to everyone, the combination of immense wealth, fame, and near god-status during schooling years tends to make a decent percentage of professional athletes total dicks - you just usually don't know about it in most cases.

Now, whether or not Incognito actually has the skills needed to improve the OL is still a question that's up for debate. Personally, I'm guessing it'd probably be hard for him to come in and make any sort of immediate impact, but I still wouldn't be surprised to see the Pats kick the tires on him just to explore all options fully.

wutang112878 · Sep 8, 2014

Toe Nash said:
To my eyes Vollmer was just as bad as any of the interior linemen today, if not worse. Wake is probably their best rusher but I think that this line gets killed with Mankins out there today.

I couldnt agree more. I forget when it was but there was one play where Vollmer was a complete revolving door and I dont even think he made contact with Wake which is about as bad as it gets. Except for another play, where Vollmer got help from a RB who made a great chip block on Wake, but Vollmer was flat-footed, standing too tall and was slightly out of position so after the chip Wake goes inside and completely gets by Vollmer. I know Vollmer is much better than that, but those plays were awful.

Incognito does nothing to fix that. This move would be too reactionary at the moment.

Smiling Joe Hesketh · Sep 8, 2014

The inside linemen had big trouble with stunts. The tackles had terrible trouble with straight up rushes. Incognito solves neither problem.

JimBoSox9 · Sep 8, 2014

There's no vote option for "whatever Wilfork thinks", so consider this a write-in.

HurstSoGood · Sep 8, 2014

Like Jose said.

I smelled the same stench when the Sox signed AJP. Sure, he filled a role, but I had/have no interest in seeing him on our team. Incognito can change his name to John Hannah for all I care: I don't want him.

IdiotKicker · Sep 8, 2014

I would put it down as an awful move. There are bigger things at play than winning football games. I can deal with a couple losses if it keeps a guy like Incognito out of the league.

PaulinMyrBch · Sep 8, 2014

In light of the Ray Rice video, I'm now voting "Great Move" on Incognito. This would fly under the radar if we sign him today. It would take ESPN a week to run it on the ticker.

Go get him, put his name in big letters on the back of a jersey and it would be business as usual at Patriots Place. Blip on the radar.

JimD · Sep 8, 2014

I voted 'Awful', if only because I don't want to have to root for Richie Incognito so soon after AJP was expunged from our baseball team.

IdiotKicker · Sep 23, 2014

Not from me. I like my level of self-hate right where it is currently.

dcmissle · Sep 23, 2014

What was that about trolling? Not content to have partisans of those two current powerhouses, Mia and NE, have at each other?

I think I voted on day 1. If it would help, yes.

Super Nomario · Sep 23, 2014

SeoulSoxFan said:
Bump. Do we feel differently three weeks in?

Way too early. There are still a lot of internal options to cycle through (Kline, Stork, Fleming at RG, etc.). Maybe after week 8 this would be something I'd reconsider.

Stitch01 · Sep 23, 2014

Nope feel pretty much the same and he doesn't play left tackle.

P'tucket rhymes with... · Sep 23, 2014

SeoulSoxFan said:
For me, I'd say necessary move. Incognito will immediately become the best guard on this unit, and gets some of the toughness that Mankins took with him.

Also betting that Incognito will play nice for a season and then let the chips fall where they may after this season.

Sure it seems a bit like a panic move, but the OL unit never looked this helpless and the same pattern is repeating itself: teams that rush 4 and generate interior pressure are throwing the entire offensive game plan into a tailspin.

Honestly, you post this, along with your comments in another thread suggesting that the Jets are going to have a harder time in Foxboro than they will in KC, and then announce your intention to put the hammer down on trolling?

Tony C · Sep 23, 2014

Neither are anywhere near trolling by any definition, so no idea what your point is.

bakahump · Sep 24, 2014

While I think he would be an immediate upgrade (and imho with Stork would help stabilize the OL) I dont see where the Pats would do this. And as a "Fan" i am ok with chocking up a 10(?) 11 (?) win season as opposed to a 13 or 14 just to "keep our head down" during the current NFL climate of shitbags and their associated headlines.

Really if Rice and Peterson hadnt happened I would be more supportive of this move.

The press (Nat and local) smell blood in the water and any bad character move right now would idiotic from a business perspective.

Reverend · Sep 24, 2014

SeoulSoxFan said:
Thank you Tony C. The Incognito thread was started when signing him was a possibility discussed elsewhere, including here. It is not to purposely do this:

which is the 1st definition that comes up if you Google "trollilng".

Now if you do get angry or get angry at Patriots signing the player, that's worthy of a discussion & indeed have been talked about in this same thread.

People generally don't understand that the troll in "trolling" is actually a verb; it is to troll for a certain kind of reaction.

If Pats signed Incognito, you'd think...

If Pats signed Incognito?

Great move -- need toughness back in the OL

Necessary move -- OL looks to be the &quot;fatal flaw&quot;

An okay move -- it'll help, but did BB really have to?

Panic move -- uh oh. BB smells fear and this reeks of desperation

Awful move -- Incognito is not worth at any cost &amp; truly disappointing

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Necessary move -- OL looks to be the "fatal flaw"

Awful move -- Incognito is not worth at any cost & truly disappointing