I could Wade a Miley in those shoes

[Sandy Leon Trotsky]

I didn't see the game last night- 5.1 IP, 2 ER, but a clip on Comcast with Buckley stated that he looked absolutely dominant.  Any comments here on Miley in general and his pitch f/x stuff would be great.  There really hasn't been too much discussion of him other than that his ceiling is a back of a rotation guy on an AL team.  
 
edit- and please... thread title?  i'm so sorry....

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

He looked like Mark Buehrle with better stuff. Worked fast, attacked the strike zone, in good sync with Leon. He had a long break in the top of the sixth, and when he came back out he wasn't nearly as sharp. Till then, though, dominant is what he looked.

 

[Sprowl]

Here's a link to his PitchFX for the game. A few things stood out to me:

In the first five innings, he painted the edges beautifully, but lost control dramatically in the sixth inning:
 

 
Fastball velocity declined inning to inning, but began at a very respectable 94 and didn't fall far until the sixth. Batters don't miss the fastball or sinker, but they don't hit it hard either, and he hits the edges very well. Miley got most of his strikeouts called rather than swinging. His slider (1) and changeup (4) were the only pitches to yield swinging strikes, but he got flyball outs with the slider and groundballs with the changeup. Against lefties, he uses mostly the fastball-slider combination; against righties, everything, especially the changeup. His command of the offspeed stuff was Buehrlesque.
 
Also, he works FAST, so fast that I can't post between pitches.
 
 

 

[Rasputin]

He looked like Mark Buehrle with better stuff. Worked fast, attacked the strike zone, in good sync with Leon. He had a long break in the top of the sixth, and when he came back out he wasn't nearly as sharp. Till then, though, dominant is what he looked.

 
Yeah, this almost exactly. The only caveat I would add is that the strike zone was a little less consistent than is generally desired and in the 6th that seemed to play against him a lot.

 

[Byrdbrain]

He looked like Mark Buehrle with better stuff. Worked fast, attacked the strike zone, in good sync with Leon. He had a long break in the top of the sixth, and when he came back out he wasn't nearly as sharp. Till then, though, dominant is what he looked.

Yeah he looked great until the 6th inning, just caught the ball and threw it.
The worst part of what happened is it is  just going to reinforce with Orsillo that he needs to track and comment on any inning more than 10 minutes, it was 27 minutes between pitches!!!!

 

[VBSoxFan]

Plus, his pickoff move to nail Chase Headley at first base in the fifth inning was a thing of beauty.

 

[Byrdbrain]

As long as they let him get away with that he will be deadly, it was a pretty blatant balk move though.

 

[75cent bleacher seat]

I realize some pitchers (players) are more subdued than others...Miley ins't one of them...It was plainly obvious from his F-bomb & SOB outbursts....I love to see that level of expression from a player.

 

[koufax32]

As long as they let him get away with that he will be deadly, it was a pretty blatant balk move though.

This is correct. At the very least it creates moment of humor as Yankee fans were decrying an obvious balk pick off move by a lhsp.
I'm curious as to why his control disappeared in the 6th. I assume a combination of wait time (Don O. is smiling somewhere) and first start tiring.

 

[Drek717]

Picked off 4, 5, and 5 over the last three seasons, seems to pretty consistently get away with it.  Also, he didn't turn and he did step towards first, so I'm not sure where exactly he broke the rules.  Is it incredibly borderline?  Sure, but it is at least dancing on the razor's edge of the letter of the law.

 

[brandonchristensen]

Would be nice to have an Andy Pettitte cheating left handed pick off artist.

Who was the guy on the Jays with the same thing...

 

[foulkehampshire]

Would be nice to have an Andy Pettitte cheating left handed pick off artist.

Who was the guy on the Jays with the same thing...

I hope you're not talking about BJ Ryan, who balked like every freaking time.

 

[koufax37]

Picked off 4, 5, and 5 over the last three seasons, seems to pretty consistently get away with it.  Also, he didn't turn and he did step towards first, so I'm not sure where exactly he broke the rules.  Is it incredibly borderline?  Sure, but it is at least dancing on the razor's edge of the letter of the law.

 
Early in the season to draw big conclusions, but I have a hunch he will be better against the running game than the other lefty we had and tried to re-sign this offseason. Can't seem to remember his name.
 
Definite balk, as opposed to the impossible read guys like Pettitte and Kenny Rogers, but if you can do it, keep doing it until it is called, and then do it some more anyway.
 
The Buhrle comparisons are pretty good, although I think Miley has a better breaking ball and less fastball command, but sure looked good in his debut.

 

[Toe Nash]

As long as they let him get away with that he will be deadly, it was a pretty blatant balk move though.

Yeah, this is the same thing that Sox fans whined about for a decade with Andy Pettitte -- maybe even more blatant. It is amusing to see the disconnect.

 

[OCD SS]

I seem to remember us talking a bit about Lester's pickoff move when he first came up and didn't have a problem throwing to bases. I think the bottom line is that the line between a good pickoff move and a balk is exceeding thin (especially as it is called vs. the stated rule) and often it just comes down to if said pitcher is on a team you're rooting for or against.

 

[mwonow]

Would be nice to have an Andy Pettitte cheating left handed pick off artist.

Who was the guy on the Jays with the same thing...

Jimmy Key, maybe?
 
And did Buehrle ever throw 94-ish? I always think of him as a high-80s kind of guy. An extra 5 mph could make Miley really effective.
 
When do we get the "extend Wade" thread?  :-}

 

[nvalvo]

Jimmy Key, maybe?
 
And did Buehrle ever throw 94-ish? I always think of him as a high-80s kind of guy. An extra 5 mph could make Miley really effective.
 
When do we get the "extend Wade" thread?  :-}

Just checking: you know Ben already did, right? Easy to miss over the offseason, or possibly I missed a joke.

Miley and the Sox avoided arbitration by agreeing to a 3/$19.25m deal through his arb years, with a $12m club option (or 500k buyout) for his first FA year.

I think it's a pretty good deal.

 

[brandonchristensen]

I hope you're not talking about BJ Ryan, who balked like every freaking time.

Nope, not him. Further back. Late 90s I think. I'm from Canada and he was big news for a hot second.

Chris Michalak I believe.

 

[mwonow]

Just checking: you know Ben already did, right? Easy to miss over the offseason, or possibly I missed a joke.

Miley and the Sox avoided arbitration by agreeing to a 3/$19.25m deal through his arb years, with a $12m club option (or 500k buyout) for his first FA year.

I think it's a pretty good deal.

Thanks, must have missed that while I was trying to keep up with the fallout from Ballghazi

 

[CaptainLaddie]

Nope, not him. Further back. Late 90s I think. I'm from Canada and he was big news for a hot second.

Chris Michalak I believe.

Yeah, Michalak had a hot start in 2001 and everyone I knew in Ontario was going apeshit over the guy.  One guy even bet me a case of beer that he'd win the Cy Young that year.

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

THE ORIGINS OF A PICKOFF MOVE

Wade Miley has one of the best pickoff moves any Red Sox pitcher has possessed in quite some time. He picked off five runners in each of the last two seasons, while getting his first of the year Friday night when nailing Chase Headley.
 
Credit an 11-year-old right-handed pitcher named Brian Fryer.
 
Fryer was a teammate of Miley on a traveling youth baseball team in Louisiana and evidently had unusually ability to pick runners of third base. His lefty pitching partner took notice.
 
"He had an unbelievable more to third base. Unbelievable. I figured I could start doing that to first base, so I just started trying to do it," Miley remembered. "Then it started working."
 
Miley took the art to heart, working on his move constantly in a mirror, while also studying the all-time leader in pickoffs (103), Andy Pettitte, constantly. He also began analyzing which umpires might be more likely to call balks on questionable moves to first.
 
But there is one part of the equation which might surprise: he doesn't try to pickoff above-average basestealers.
 
"It has to be the right runner," Miley said. "You don't want to go after guys who are basestealers because they're paying attention. You want middle-of-the-road guys. Guys who aren't going anywhere, it's those guys who I try to target. The basestealers, I just try and be quick to home to give the catcher a chance."
 

 

I wish he hadn't told the basestealers that, but maybe he's lulling them into a false sense of security.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

What 11 year old plays in a league that allows leading off the base?

 

[Skiponzo]

Travel ball.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

Travel ball.

Yes I saw that it was a traveling team. Thanks. I wasn't aware that kids played on 90' base paths at age 11 and I've never heard of a league that allows it on 60'. Example of such a league maybe?

 

[SumnerH]

Not allowing leads and steals is the reason I quit playing organized ball as a kid. It seemed incredibly lame for someone who watched mlb games and played neighborhood games with steals all the time.

I get in retrospect why the rule exists, but it's really disheartening for a kid who wants to hustle and play the same game he watches and lives. It really felt like smart players who paid attention and put in effort were being penalized to help the big hitting jocks (who already dominated) have an even bigger advantage.

Yeah, I was a nerd. A fast track nerd, but a nerd. Shocking.

 

[SumnerH]

I was also the asshole trying to run offside traps in 3rd grade soccer.

 

[iayork]

What 11 year old plays in a league that allows leading off the base?

The 500,000 kids who play Pony League.  They allow leadoffs starting age 9.

 

[Byrdbrain]

Yeah things have changed and lots of leagues allow kids to lead, most transition to 75' basepaths for the 12 year olds as well. Our town hasn't gone that way because of the configuration of some of the fields won't allow it.
My youngest is a freshman in college now though so I am a bit out of touch with the current status though.
 
 
Edit:I guess it's 70' not 75', I did say I was out of touch, and yeah Cal Ripken is much bigger in NH than LL so that is what my kids played in .

 

[EddieYost]

Cal Ripken majors plays out a 70 foot diamond and allows leading.

Cal Ripken is the 12u division of Babe Ruth.

 

[Skiponzo]

My 12 year old plays what we call our 50/70 league. It's an extension of LL and they are allowed lead offs, dropped 3rd strike advances, etc. Basically the real game.​

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

Cool. Thanks guys. I'm about two dozen years removed and don't have kids, so I'm out of the loop on this stuff. Heard of Cal Ripken but always thought it was just competitor for LL. never heard of Pony league. Appreciate it.

 

[soxhop411]

Tim Britton ‏@TimBritton  3m3 minutes ago
Miley pretty candid with the self-diagnosis today:
 

 

[Yelling At Clouds]

So I only heard today's start on the radio.  Did he look as bad as he sounded?

 

[Jnai]

Sometimes, people post examples of strikezones where everything is thrown at the edges, nothing is in the middle or too far outside, and we marvel at how people are able to throw 95 MPH and spot the ball with such precision.
 
Today, Miley accomplished the exciting feat of throwing the ball only far out of the strikezone or right down the middle.
 
 

 
It's like, the anti-donut.

 

[Monbo Jumbo]

So...

Any anti-donut antidote?

 

[In my lifetime]

Sometimes, people post examples of strikezones where everything is thrown at the edges, nothing is in the middle or too far outside, and we marvel at how people are able to throw 95 MPH and spot the ball with such precision.
 
Today, Miley accomplished the exciting feat of throwing the ball only far out of the strikezone or right down the middle.
 
 

 
It's like, the anti-donut.

 
Nah. Either Munchkins or beach balls.

 

[Rasputin]

So I only heard today's start on the radio.  Did he look as bad as he sounded?

 
 

Sometimes, people post examples of strikezones where everything is thrown at the edges, nothing is in the middle or too far outside, and we marvel at how people are able to throw 95 MPH and spot the ball with such precision.
 
Today, Miley accomplished the exciting feat of throwing the ball only far out of the strikezone or right down the middle.
 
 

 
It's like, the anti-donut.

 
Sounds like that's a big yes.

 

[In my lifetime]

When I chart the pitches it looks like this:   https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQnZQViSq2H9r3IOxETvSqDbphqGopncclN0vnSOiPbJoqELf1S

 

[soxhop411]

Pete Abraham ‏@PeteAbe  4m4 minutes ago
Asked if Miley could lose his spot, Farrell didn't say no. Only that they had just come off the field.
 
Jason Mastrodonato ‏@JMastrodonato  8m8 minutes ago
Farrell asked if he's evaluating Miley's spot in the rotation, said "We just walked off the field."

 

[soxhop411]

Sean McAdam ‏@Sean_McAdam  2m
2 minutes ago
Miley: "It's embarrassing because I know I'm better than this. But in two starts. I haven't even given us a chance."

 

[geoduck no quahog]

So, what do you do in a situation like this? The guy is signed for 3 years - so you just can't give up on him.
 
How many chances to you give a guy to prove that he doesn't suck? Enough to injure your season?
 
There are certainly alternatives in the minors. Can Miley still be sent down? Would that be incredibly stupid?
 
If they've lost confidence in him, I guess he's got to go to the pen (or play right field) and push someone (breslow - cough) out. He tries to work things out while Barnes takes is place.
 
Or the DL. 

 

[KillerBs]

You would expect that, absent injury, he would get at least 7-8 starts before they would even think of pulling the plug. I would expect it to be a lot longer than that given the substantial investment. If he does gets removed from the rotation, I hope they turn him (and/or Wright) into a long man, which this team badly needs, given that it looks like they will need on average close to 4 IPs from the pen each game.  
 
Miley has had 4 starts, 2 horrifically bad, and 2 reasonably good so it is not as if he has simply established he is not capable of pitching up here. He appears to have 4 credible pitches and is still throwing 92. Thus I like his chances in the short to mid term more than Masterson's.  
 
The obvious problem with Miley seems to be a complete lack of control/command evident even in his "good" starts. His walk rate has spiked seriously over his career so it is a concern. Maybe he should slow the hell down and concentrate on throwing strikes. If he keeps pitching like this, his conditioning is going to be questioned too.    

 

[NDame616]

Miley has pitched "pretty good" or, at worst, right along what most of this rotation has done, in 2 of his 4 starts. He also has a track record of being an above average pitcher who throws 200+ innings. He was also signed to a 3 year extension.
 
I think a DL stint is in the near future, but I doubt the Red Sox think he's cooked or will think about pulling the plug anytime soon.

 

[BoredViewer]

Given the investment, I think you're looking at 8-10 starts before a change would happen.
 
We also have to consider the rest of the rotation. Miley could be bad and still not be the worst of the bunch. 
 
Look... we've brought a guy over that wasn't a particularly good pitcher in the NL and are now asking him to get through 6 innings, when he doesn't have 2 or 3 automatic outs to work around.  Even in a best case scenario, you're probably talking about a guy that was going to give the Sox no chance to win in 1/3 of his starts.

 

[MikeM]

With the extension in play, he realistically gets at least the season (health permitting) before any plug pulling discussion takes place. Nothing much you can do at this point but ride it out and hope for the best.
 
It's early and unlike the Porcello extension, worst case scenario Miley's isn't of the variety worth losing any sleep over imo. 
 
 

 

[lexrageorge]

I'm firmly in the "it's only 4 starts" camp.  Every pitcher goes through a bad month from time to time.  And the Sox cannot survive Miley having one bad month, then they're not as good of a team as thought.  The absolute worst thing would be to pull him from the rotation at this point.  
 
He gets at least another month or two to straighten himself out.  Skipping a turn with the off day coming up would not be the worst idea, but that is far as I would go, barring injury.  

 

[Sandy Leon Trotsky]

At least 4 more starts before they come up with a phantom injury to DL him and have him do several rehab starts in the minors.

 

[Hank Scorpio]

Yes I saw that it was a traveling team. Thanks. I wasn't aware that kids played on 90' base paths at age 11 and I've never heard of a league that allows it on 60'. Example of such a league maybe?

 
It was definitely allowed when I played little league... talking around 1991-1996 though, I would have been 9-14 those years. Pretty sure I infuriated one of my coaches because I was such an awesome leadoff hitter (I got on base around 55 times in 14 games, seriously), but I was the most conservative base runner ever, despite being fairly quick. The point is, I remember him over and over again trying to drive it into my head that I need to take a lead off of the bases. I was adamant about keeping one foot on the bag until he yelled from the bench to take a lead. Then I'd stand maybe a foot off the bag and lean towards first.
 
I think I was terrified of being Kolten Wonged, or perhaps Todd Heltoned.
 
Point is, it's widely allowed in little league as far as I know.

 

[grimshaw]

I don't think it's too early to send him down, and also don't think it would be a panic move since they are looking long term with him.  He knows he's hurting the team and wants to get things fixed.  It they weren't facing the Jays and Yanks next I could see them keeping him up against a weaker lineup, but that isn't the case.  The scary thing is, this is the first time he's seeing these teams, so they have seen his stuff and had no issues with it. 
 
Varvaro and Breslow have already been asked 4 times to go more than an inning.  Breslow said he was worn down by the end of the year.  It's already killing the bullpen.
 
Edit:  Just to add a bit more - starting pitchers who have struggled mightily since 2010 who didn't start in the organization have generally been out of options.  Even year Beckett, Lackey, Dempster, Peavy, Dice-K towards the end.  They couldn't option those guys, so they phantom dl'd them.  They can do that now without inventing injuries.  And they have guys waiting who couldn't do any worse.

 

[Hank Scorpio]

But back to Miley, I really think his quick pace is a double-edged sword. When he's going good, it keeps his momentum going, but once things start going bad, specifically with missing his spots, his quick pace just causes him to unravel at light speed.
 
Cliche as all this may sound, I think there would be real benefit from him taking a breather between pitches and pressing the reset button. Haven't seen Miley's two bad starts, but if the Sox aren't using mound visits by the catcher to help with this, they should start, at least as much as the umpire will allow.
 
Pitchers should have the mindset that each individual pitch is its own event. The only pitch that matters is the next one thrown. I don't know what Miley's thinking, but to me it seems like he's getting into a bad spot, then rather than saying "I'm going to throw this pitch to this location" he's saying "I'm going to throw this pitch in the direction of the catcher".