How do you feel about the past 20 years of John Henry and Tom Werner owning the team?

Rovin Romine

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I'm not the one doing the casual look. I'm the one who actually went through both the 40-man rosters and the top-30 prospects and did the math. You're the one going "just look at Cot's!" over and over again.
Here's how it works. I don't have to retype the Cot's data. It's right there. The Sox have fewer good arb and pre-arb players under control than the Yankees did in 2019. Just read the sheets. Which I've linked for anyone too lazy to go to the site.

You're the one making the (frankly fucking bizarre) claim that the Sox and the Yanks were equally situated in 2019. This flies contrary to even the most casual perceptions of the farm systems and the players under contract.

The burden is on the person making the bizarre claim.

I suspect you know you can't meet it.

But perhaps I'm wrong - show me.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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I think they could have just “run it back” in 2020, and assumed that 2019 was just a weird hangover year (unlucky clustering of injuries!) and that the teams Pythagorean record that year was more indicative of what to expect going forward. Of course, COVID changed everything and the lousy performance in that year made it looked like the Sox had to hit rock bottom, but in a world where COVID never happens and the Sox largely stand pat, I imagine they would have been contenders in 2020. Hell, they were contenders in 2021 and the farm system still stunk, no? It’s not like the lack of pre players was a fatal flaw and it was year where they still had a ton of dead money.
 

Rasputin

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I think they could have just “run it back” in 2020, and assumed that 2019 was just a weird hangover year (unlucky clustering of injuries!) and that the teams Pythagorean record that year was more indicative of what to expect going forward. Of course, COVID changed everything and the lousy performance in that year made it looked like the Sox had to hit rock bottom, but in a world where COVID never happens and the Sox largely stand pat, I imagine they would have been contenders in 2020. Hell, they were contenders in 2021 and the farm system still stunk, no? It’s not like the lack of pre players was a fatal flaw and it was year where they still had a ton of dead money.
Weren't there a couple big injuries in spring training that made it clear--even the day before the world shut down--that things were gonna suck? I have a vague memory of thinking they were going to be pretty good going in, and by the time there was a body count graphic on the nightly news, it was clear mediocre was the best we could hope for.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Weren't there a couple big injuries in spring training that made it clear--even the day before the world shut down--that things were gonna suck? I have a vague memory of thinking they were going to be pretty good going in, and by the time there was a body count graphic on the nightly news, it was clear mediocre was the best we could hope for.
Sale was hurt, so yeah. But without COVID, EdRo doesn’t miss the whole year.

Anyways, the team was terrible in 2020 which made it seem like blowing it up had to be done but it was such a strange year - it’s hard to imagine what happens in a more normal year.

Alas, we’ll never know anyways.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Weren't there a couple big injuries in spring training that made it clear--even the day before the world shut down--that things were gonna suck? I have a vague memory of thinking they were going to be pretty good going in, and by the time there was a body count graphic on the nightly news, it was clear mediocre was the best we could hope for.
The rotation was a gigantic concern even before COVID hit and ERod got sick. The projected rotation at the start of spring training was Rodriguez, Eovaldi, Martin Perez, and who knows. Worth noting also that Eovaldi was coming off a partial season in which he'd had another procedure on his elbow (to clean out loose bone fragments) so he was a question mark. Collin McHugh was the injury reclamation project that year and ultimately he never threw a pitch for them. There was a real chance that the likes of Ryan Weber and Mike Shawayrn and Mike Kickham were going to get starts for that team regardless of the COVID effect.

The lineup, even with he who shall not be named gone, didn't look terrible but it didn't really feel like an offense that would bludgeon teams to make up for the questionable pitching.
 

Rovin Romine

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The rotation was a gigantic concern even before COVID hit and ERod got sick. The projected rotation at the start of spring training was Rodriguez, Eovaldi, Martin Perez, and who knows. Worth noting also that Eovaldi was coming off a partial season in which he'd had another procedure on his elbow (to clean out loose bone fragments) so he was a question mark. Collin McHugh was the injury reclamation project that year and ultimately he never threw a pitch for them. There was a real chance that the likes of Ryan Weber and Mike Shawayrn and Mike Kickham were going to get starts for that team regardless of the COVID effect.

The lineup, even with he who shall not be named gone, didn't look terrible but it didn't really feel like an offense that would bludgeon teams to make up for the questionable pitching.
Don't forget that with he who shall not be named in-house, in an all-or-nothing run for Glory against the very similarly situated somebodys, we also commit to Gimpy-Price, who (in the real world) after a year of resting his arm for all of 2020 only managed 70 innings of 4 ERA in 2021 in a pitcher's park. It's a pretty safe call that he'd have been just as bad in a hypothetical 2020.

Then we lose. . .players. . .for no return that off-season. And we hope Sale and Price are parts of the 2021 starting rotation. Because at $62M they're between 1/4 and 1/3rd of the overall budget.

Unless we package one of them in a trade or something.
 

HfxBob

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(I hate 'em too, but) the Yankees just do things differently from the Red Sox. They have a different philosophy. They just keep using their wealth as a weapon. They came close to losing their superstar, reportedly, but in the end they forked over and kept him. They signed Cole, Rodon, Stroman, Rizzo, LeMahieu. They traded for Stanton, Soto, Verdugo. They've had plenty of busts and blunders, too, but it doesn't stop them.

The one thing the Red Sox have done better over the last 20 years is convert their postseason opportunities. Thank God for that.
 

HfxBob

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To me the most concerning idea about Henry is this: he's only been as good as the guys working with him or for him. I'm talking about Lucchino, Epstein and Dombrowski.

Hopefully he's got another good one now in Breslow.
 

Max Power

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To me the most concerning idea about Henry is this: he's only been as good as the guys working with him or for him. I'm talking about Lucchino, Epstein and Dombrowski.

Hopefully he's got another good one now in Breslow.
I don't understand this. Is John Henry supposed to be GM of the team?

No matter who owns the team, the Red Sox are never going to be on the financial level of the Yankees and Dodgers. They're in their own tier of revenues and ability to spend their way out of mistakes. The Red Sox are in that second tier with the Cubs and Braves, which is a very nice position to be in, but will generally never get the guys who the big two also want.
 

HfxBob

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I don't understand this. Is John Henry supposed to be GM of the team?
No, but I think he has a lot to do with who is. A lot to do with them coming and going on a surprisingly regular basis.

A lot to do with making that offer that keeps the superstar in town or not.

A lot to do with setting the annual budgets.

He ain't exactly a hands-off guy, from what I've observed.
 
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Sandy Leon Trotsky

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No, but I think he has a lot to do with who is. A lot to do with them coming and going on a surprisingly regular basis.

A lot to do with making that offer that keeps the superstar in town or not.

A lot to do with setting the annual budgets.

He ain't exactly a hands-off guy, from what I've observed.
Henry does exhibit a lack of trust in his GM hiring to fix their (and sometimes his) mistakes. Cashman, on the opposite side, been given a level of trust to fix his own mistakes from NYY ownership for 25+ years.
Henry seemed to trust Theo and then drove him off after a few goofs. Brought in Cherington to “fix” Theo’s goofs. Then brought in Dombrowski because he didn’t have faith that Ben could make the top moves to turn the core he and Theo drafted and developed into a champion. Then after making those moves, he lost faith in Dombo to make the necessary hard choices to fix the damages his focus on the ML team wrought on the long term success. so he brought in Bloom who seemingly repaired the ship and got it back on course but also couldn’t commit himself to a long term strategy so found Breslow who appears to be fixing the edges that Bloom he believed couldn’t.

it’s not someone who Id want to work for or with and exhibits a lack of trust, confidence and vision.
 

Benj4ever

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(I hate 'em too, but) the Yankees just do things differently from the Red Sox. They have a different philosophy. They just keep using their wealth as a weapon. They came close to losing their superstar, reportedly, but in the end they forked over and kept him. They signed Cole, Rodon, Stroman, Rizzo, LeMahieu. They traded for Stanton, Soto, Verdugo. They've had plenty of busts and blunders, too, but it doesn't stop them.

The one thing the Red Sox have done better over the last 20 years is convert their postseason opportunities. Thank God for that.
The Yankees actually built up their farm system in the mid-2010s. I remember Yankees fans complaining about them not spending money, and that they "weren't the Rays." The strategy started paying off in the late 2010s. The 2018 team in particular was really young, with a lot of homegrown guys (G.Sachez, Bird and Voight at 1B, Gleyber Torres, Miguel Andujar, Judge, Severino and German). I seems like they've gotten back to their high-spending ways since then.
 

richgedman'sghost

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Who, exactly? The 2019 Yankees, for example, were a really old team. They didn’t have any significant contributors under the age of 26. They only had one starter under the age of 30 (Domingo German).

They had cost controlled guys like Mike Tauchman, Gio Urshela, Clint Frazier,and Gary Sanchez.

But the Yankees have continued to be a pretty old team; Torres and Volpe being the exceptions and examples of young guys who have been key to their recent success.
Aaron Judge ? Did you forget him?
 

Rovin Romine

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The Yankees actually built up their farm system in the mid-2010s. I remember Yankees fans complaining about them not spending money, and that they "weren't the Rays." The strategy started paying off in the late 2010s. The 2018 team in particular was really young, with a lot of homegrown guys (G.Sachez, Bird and Voight at 1B, Gleyber Torres, Miguel Andujar, Judge, Severino and German). I seems like they've gotten back to their high-spending ways since then.
To me the most concerning idea about Hal Steinbrenner is this: he's only been as good as the guys working with him or for him.
 

HfxBob

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To me the most concerning idea about Hal Steinbrenner is this: he's only been as good as the guys working with him or for him.
The key is that Hal is vastly more hands-off than Henry. Based on the evidence we have, Henry is about as hands-on as it gets as a baseball owner.

Sandy Leon Trotsky's comments above phrased it very well.
 

Rovin Romine

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The key is that Hal is vastly more hands-off than Henry. Based on the evidence we have, Henry is about as hands-on as it gets as a baseball owner.

Sandy Leon Trotsky's comments above phrased it very well.
But that's just it. Hal's won 1 World Series.

It's the most concerning idea to me. In fact, if I was a Yankee's fan, I'd certainly be worrying my pretty little head over it.
 

HfxBob

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But that's just it. Hal's won 1 World Series.

It's the most concerning idea to me. In fact, if I was a Yankee's fan, I'd certainly be worrying my pretty little head over it.
Oh yeah, it drives Yankee fans insane that they've only been in one World Series since 2003. And a lot of them have been calling for Cashman's head for years.

And I'm as thrilled as any Sox fan that we have 4 rings to their 1 since Henry bought the team.

But the Yankees' run of regular season success can't be lightly dismissed IMHO. As for the 'playoff crapshoot' debate, it's an interesting one.
 

mauf

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DD mortgaged the future in a way his predecessors didn’t. That’s not a knock on DD — he had an exceptional core of cost-controlled talent, and he was right to go all-in rather than counting on the kind of postseason luck that Theo and BC enjoyed. Discussions here frequently miss that the Sox essentially chose to accept a longer run of mediocrity (or worse) than they had from 2002-18 to maximize their chances of winning with the Mookie-Sale-Bogaerts-JBJ core. That bill was coming due in the early 2020s regardless of whether DD, Bloom, or someone else was running the baseball operation.

That doesn’t absolve ownership or management from their recent missteps, even leaving aside the Mookie trade. Bloom’s rebuild of the farm system proceeded too slowly. He made some bad calls on free agents, Yoshida being the most obvious example. And whether it was Bloom or ownership, they failed to anticipate the escalation of salaries under the new CBA — they kept a lot of powder dry in 2021-22, only to see the cost of talent skyrocket. I’m also disappointed in the level of spending the past two seasons, but I’m not sure any realistic level of spending would’ve closed the gap between where they are and where they ought to be in the 5th year of a rebuild, so I’m not as upset about that as others.

I’m happy with Breslow because he seems to have a plan. He didn’t necessarily expect the pitching to be as good as it has been, but I think it’s obvious he knew he could implement some quick fixes. Beyond that, he has committed to playing the kids so he can figure out what he’s got. The results have been promising enough that ownership should open the checkbook, bringing our payroll back in line with revenues (i.e., top 5 but not top 2-3) over the next year or two. If ownership does that I’ll be happy; if we’re still outside the top 10 in payroll in 2025 and 2026, ownership will have exhausted its accumulated goodwill with me, but I’m not going to get preemptively upset about that because they chose not to spend money that wouldn’t have made a difference.
 

Rovin Romine

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Maybe something's going over my head, but Judge is 32.
People sometimes confuse a payer's age with years of control. So they often think "young player" means the club has that player under control for a longer period of time. Whereas "older player" means the club will soon lose them to FA unless they want to offer a close-to market price contract.

Judge was a rookie in 2017 at the age of 25. Which meant the Yanks had control of him through his age 31 season, 2023.

Compared to a hypothetical OF who came up at age 21 in 2014. That clock would run out during their age 27 season, 2020.

Those players are one year in age apart, but their control clocks are set to very different times.