So how are the giants doing it? Sabean has never struck me as the smartest GM yet every time you look there is another WS ring
How are the Giants doing it?
- Thread starter OptimusPapi
- Start date
Cliche as it sounds - They seem to have a knack for winning when it matters.
They built from within extremely well, and haven't been bringing in high priced FA that cause the churn we have seen recently in Boston. The minor role player tweaks they make seem to work out really well - Scutato, Pagan, Peavy. I'm not sure if it's Bochy or Sabean making the calls or determining the need on who to get but clubhouse guys like Peavy seem to help in these playoff runs.
They built from within extremely well, and haven't been bringing in high priced FA that cause the churn we have seen recently in Boston. The minor role player tweaks they make seem to work out really well - Scutato, Pagan, Peavy. I'm not sure if it's Bochy or Sabean making the calls or determining the need on who to get but clubhouse guys like Peavy seem to help in these playoff runs.
OptimusPapi said:
It starts with having a middle of lineup catcher and three very good pitchers (Lincecum fell off but was a huge part 2010 and 2012).
They had a core of Posey, Sandoval, Bumgarner, Lincecum, Cain, Romo, and Affledt.
Sabean was very effective at filling holes. Bringing up Belt, moving on from Brian Wilson, grabbing Peavy this year. His outfield has always been a grab bag. They stuck with Brandon Crawford despite him having no bat.
There is no long term plan, they just continue to plug holes and march.
Maybe there is a grain of truth in the old cliches about "Chemistry" and "Staying within yourself". The Giant hitters never seemed to be trying to be heroes, just taking what KC gave them, especially Pence with 2 strikes.
The experience of playing in 3 WS in 5 years with many of the same players probably helps them relax & focus, too.
The experience of playing in 3 WS in 5 years with many of the same players probably helps them relax & focus, too.
What the Giants do well is what the Red Sox did well in 2013. They bring the floor up. They also make the playoffs, or at least, put themselves in a position to make the playoffs, consistently. In 4 of the last 5 seasons they've won 86 or more games. The one exception was a down year in 2013 where they won 76 games. And that's the gamble you take when you look to bring the floor up through smaller deals. When it goes wrong, it's tough to recover from. It went very badly for the Red Sox this year. It was nearly as bad for the Giants last year. However, the general concept behind filling in from the bottom has worked for them. Of course, without a strong core, building from the bottom doesn't get you into the playoffs, so that's the other big piece of the puzzle. The Red Sox had a great core last year and replaced below average hitters with average or better hitters, then won 97 games. There's a fair bit of luck involved, but it appears to be a sound strategy.
A young position player core drafted and developed patiently by the G's org ( all four infielders and the catcher), liberally sprinkled with average MLB players, usually obtained when their production is down and the cost with it (Huff, Ross, Scutaro, Torres, Pagan, Burrell).
Sabean and his staff seem to have a good eye for MLB scouting, which wasn't the case in the past (the later Bond years).
The pitching side is also impressive, between the homegrown guys and the pickups. Righetti is a great pitching coach, and they developed fly ball pitchers in a park where that style was easy to defend.
Finally Bochy. Peavy wears his heart on his sleeve but he captured the respect players have for the manager. Bochy reminds me of the manager from Major League when he talks. He fits the cliche, putting his players in a position to succeed.
Edit. A little late. Snodgrass covered some of this.
Sabean and his staff seem to have a good eye for MLB scouting, which wasn't the case in the past (the later Bond years).
The pitching side is also impressive, between the homegrown guys and the pickups. Righetti is a great pitching coach, and they developed fly ball pitchers in a park where that style was easy to defend.
Finally Bochy. Peavy wears his heart on his sleeve but he captured the respect players have for the manager. Bochy reminds me of the manager from Major League when he talks. He fits the cliche, putting his players in a position to succeed.
Edit. A little late. Snodgrass covered some of this.
Huge part of it is luck. In the same way that prior to 2004 the Red Sox had been playing the team of the decade in each of their WS match ups, the Giants have been drawing favorable AL partners:
2014: The Royals had the lowest run differential (+27), barely half of the next highest team the Tigers. Only one win higher than the other WC team, the A's.
2012: Detroit had the lowest run differential by far of the five AL playoff teams and went in to October with 84 wins.
2010: Texas had the lowest run differential and wins of the four AL teams
2014: The Royals had the lowest run differential (+27), barely half of the next highest team the Tigers. Only one win higher than the other WC team, the A's.
2012: Detroit had the lowest run differential by far of the five AL playoff teams and went in to October with 84 wins.
2010: Texas had the lowest run differential and wins of the four AL teams
I know we're supposed to distrust intangibles but the Giants culture is amazing. Lots of positivity, looseness, intensity, camaraderie. All the ego on the roster is collective ego. I think that comes from the continuity in the coaching, the roster, the management. For example they've had the same bullpen core for all three of these title runs. And Righetti. He's a magician.
well, they beat three pretty mediocre teams in each WS. KC was amongst the worst teams to ever make a WS. But the 2010 and 2012 teams did have elite pitching. This 2014 version had one good pitcher
I think a big part of the giants success, similar to why the Sox win in postseason so often, is that their advance scouting and pitching/defensive game planning is superb. they know how to gets guy out and their pitchers largely execute
I think a big part of the giants success, similar to why the Sox win in postseason so often, is that their advance scouting and pitching/defensive game planning is superb. they know how to gets guy out and their pitchers largely execute
WestMassExpat said:
It's also likely that run differential isn't a great way to predict post season success. We're talking about a handful of very specific match ups and sometimes one team, even with a significant disadvantage in run differential, is just constructed in a way that hits the superior team right in the soft spot.
Clears Cleaver said:
They had only one good pitcher, but he was incredible. That can carry you a long way in the post season. See: Beckett, Josh ~ 2007 But your second point is a great one. Scouting your opponents and being able to find chinks in the armor is a huge deal in a win or go home series. The Red Sox had a huge pick off at first in 2007 and another in 2013. Papelbon nabbing Holliday and Uehara nailing Kolten Wong. We don't often think about the amount of prep work that goes into the games, but it's an enormous part of the success of winning teams.
EvilEmpire said:
I think this is pretty close to right, too. Even Year Bullshit exists.
I mean everyone wants to talk dynasty, and I understand it, three in five is awesome, but as has been pointed out, they missed the playoffs in the other two years. They won 92, 86, 94, 76, and 88 games over that stretch. Good, with great postseason results, but not dynastic.
It took them 50 years to be back having won two (or more) more world championships than the Dodgers, but they finally made it. In 1964 it was 5-3, now it's 8-6.
I hope the Red Sox can follow the pattern, reload quickly internally and externally and return. Only the 1942, 1944 and 1946 Cardinals can match this type of National League dominance in the ultimate series over a short stretch of time. No NL has ever won three series in a row since 1903 (the start of modern World Series), so this is an accomplishment. This decade has started with National League dominance in the Series for the first time since the 1980s. The reasons stated in prior posts I agree with. Who is hot at the right time?
I hope the Red Sox can follow the pattern, reload quickly internally and externally and return. Only the 1942, 1944 and 1946 Cardinals can match this type of National League dominance in the ultimate series over a short stretch of time. No NL has ever won three series in a row since 1903 (the start of modern World Series), so this is an accomplishment. This decade has started with National League dominance in the Series for the first time since the 1980s. The reasons stated in prior posts I agree with. Who is hot at the right time?
Bochy deserves a ton of credit. Hudson to Affeldt to Bumgarner was not a combination anybody predicted, but it was perfect. Who else could you want to finish game 7?
Well, it is interesting that his closer threw 4 pitches in the 7-game series....kieckeredinthehead said:
I wouldn't read anything into Casilla only throwing four ten pitches. Five of the games were blowouts on either side. He was used in one of them, Game Two. He was also used in the next game, the 3-2 loss. The next two games were 11-4 Giants and the 5-0 Bumgarner complete game. For this last game, I think there was a psychological benefit to keeping Bumgarner in there. Take him out with that runner on third and two outs, the Royals think they have a chance. I think batting against the best pitcher in the history of the World Series is daunting, even if he's throwing his 175th pitch in three days or whatever it was.
I'll say this: There is always an element of luck involved in winning in the playoffs, but I really don't think you can discount three World Series Championships in five years simply as a product of chance. There has to be a lot of really great baseball being played to accomplish that. The Giants have played 48 playoff games over the three Championship runs and obviously have won every series. By my count, they are 34-14 in the playoffs since 2010, presumably against other top teams in the MLB. That's more than just luck.
When Bonds finally left the Giants, I think it was the first time that Brian Sabean really got to show what kind of General Manager he could be. Bonds, Pac Bell/AT&T Park and a somewhat limited budget beyond him created a lot of constraints for Sabean. I think it also taught him how to seek out lower-value veterans that can slot in and contribute without having to be paid like superstars, and the types of players to look for in the draft. Free agents aren't stoked on AT&T, after all. There were a lot of lean years, too, which gave them good drafting positions. They invested a lot more into scouting, they stopped cutting corners to save money in the draft. They basically overhauled their entire operation in that regard. With Bonds, they looked to trading off young players and getting higher-priced veterans in return. Now they hoard their young players and sign reasonably-priced veteran contributors. Trades are judicious, sometimes ridiculed at the time and hailed as brilliance in retrospect.
That style might be coming to an end. The homegrown players are getting older (thus need to be paid) and all we kept hearing about this season was how thin our system was (because anybody good had already made it to the team). That was before Panik, so maybe it's better than advertised. Still... the team is just going to get more expensive and at some point down the road will have to be rebuilt. Sad. I love these guys.
Whomever said above that the ego in the Giants' clubhouse is collective, I think that has something to do with it, too. I am obviously not there, but it does appear that these teams always have a very, very team-first attitude. I think that's partly by chance (the natural personalities of players like Pence, Posey, Blanco, Cain, Lincecum, Affeldt...), and partly because that's the culture now. As new people come in they sort of assimilate to this all-for-one, team-first attitude. They've also got guys like Vogelsong, Petit and Ishikawa who have gone to hell and back, baseball-wise, and are thankful for the opportunities to be there and realize how elusive baseball can be. Four of those guys are Willie Mac Award winners and, thus, obviously team leaders. They set the tone.
Bochy is also an incredible manager. Sandoval and Vogelsong both talked at length after the win about how they are inspired because he well and truly believes in the players. He clearly makes good decisions, but the players clearly respond to however it is he is working with them. His coaching staff is also top-notch. Righetti and Gardner clearly know how to get the best out of their pitchers. Ron Wotus has been the bench coach since 1999. He's the guy that sets the defense so that a Nori Aoki ball down the line is caught by Juan Perez and doesn't land for a run-scoring double. The fact Wotus isn't managing is almost criminal. But maybe it's by choice--he's been with the team in some fashion since 1988. Hell, the clubhouse manager Mike Murphy has been there since 1958. Just a great coaching staff, all around.
This isn't germane, but before the Series some writer, Tom Van Riper, had this to say about Madison Bumgarner: "The only standout, Madison Bumgarner, is a soft-tossing lefty who doesn't exactly evoke memories of Randy Johnson or Pedro Martinez glaring in at a catcher's sign before blowing away a hitter on a 99 MPH fastball." I mean, I guess he's right in that MadBum doesn't have a 99 MPH fastball. He only tops out around 94/95. Soft. .
I'll say this: There is always an element of luck involved in winning in the playoffs, but I really don't think you can discount three World Series Championships in five years simply as a product of chance. There has to be a lot of really great baseball being played to accomplish that. The Giants have played 48 playoff games over the three Championship runs and obviously have won every series. By my count, they are 34-14 in the playoffs since 2010, presumably against other top teams in the MLB. That's more than just luck.
When Bonds finally left the Giants, I think it was the first time that Brian Sabean really got to show what kind of General Manager he could be. Bonds, Pac Bell/AT&T Park and a somewhat limited budget beyond him created a lot of constraints for Sabean. I think it also taught him how to seek out lower-value veterans that can slot in and contribute without having to be paid like superstars, and the types of players to look for in the draft. Free agents aren't stoked on AT&T, after all. There were a lot of lean years, too, which gave them good drafting positions. They invested a lot more into scouting, they stopped cutting corners to save money in the draft. They basically overhauled their entire operation in that regard. With Bonds, they looked to trading off young players and getting higher-priced veterans in return. Now they hoard their young players and sign reasonably-priced veteran contributors. Trades are judicious, sometimes ridiculed at the time and hailed as brilliance in retrospect.
That style might be coming to an end. The homegrown players are getting older (thus need to be paid) and all we kept hearing about this season was how thin our system was (because anybody good had already made it to the team). That was before Panik, so maybe it's better than advertised. Still... the team is just going to get more expensive and at some point down the road will have to be rebuilt. Sad. I love these guys.
Whomever said above that the ego in the Giants' clubhouse is collective, I think that has something to do with it, too. I am obviously not there, but it does appear that these teams always have a very, very team-first attitude. I think that's partly by chance (the natural personalities of players like Pence, Posey, Blanco, Cain, Lincecum, Affeldt...), and partly because that's the culture now. As new people come in they sort of assimilate to this all-for-one, team-first attitude. They've also got guys like Vogelsong, Petit and Ishikawa who have gone to hell and back, baseball-wise, and are thankful for the opportunities to be there and realize how elusive baseball can be. Four of those guys are Willie Mac Award winners and, thus, obviously team leaders. They set the tone.
Bochy is also an incredible manager. Sandoval and Vogelsong both talked at length after the win about how they are inspired because he well and truly believes in the players. He clearly makes good decisions, but the players clearly respond to however it is he is working with them. His coaching staff is also top-notch. Righetti and Gardner clearly know how to get the best out of their pitchers. Ron Wotus has been the bench coach since 1999. He's the guy that sets the defense so that a Nori Aoki ball down the line is caught by Juan Perez and doesn't land for a run-scoring double. The fact Wotus isn't managing is almost criminal. But maybe it's by choice--he's been with the team in some fashion since 1988. Hell, the clubhouse manager Mike Murphy has been there since 1958. Just a great coaching staff, all around.
This isn't germane, but before the Series some writer, Tom Van Riper, had this to say about Madison Bumgarner: "The only standout, Madison Bumgarner, is a soft-tossing lefty who doesn't exactly evoke memories of Randy Johnson or Pedro Martinez glaring in at a catcher's sign before blowing away a hitter on a 99 MPH fastball." I mean, I guess he's right in that MadBum doesn't have a 99 MPH fastball. He only tops out around 94/95. Soft. .
If the postseason really was a crapshoot, then Beane would have made it to a World Series by now.
The Giants advance scouts seem to do a great job, and that is really important in the postseason. Balboni and company seem to be doing good work, and they seem to have a manager who works well with them (rather than, say a braindead jackass who disregards all of their work and singlehandedly loses the pennant-- sorry, Grady flashback there.)
The Giants advance scouts seem to do a great job, and that is really important in the postseason. Balboni and company seem to be doing good work, and they seem to have a manager who works well with them (rather than, say a braindead jackass who disregards all of their work and singlehandedly loses the pennant-- sorry, Grady flashback there.)
Gael girl as always make some great points about the current Giants. I think if you look back at Sabean's tenure, it's fair to say he's always been very good - and underrated by most here and elsewhere.
His first big move was trading Matt Williams for Jeff Kent, Julian Tavares and a couple others.
He was killed for this but this trade and other moves set the team up for a solid 8 year run, many times during which they could have won a world series if they got the type of breaks they got this year:
In 1997 they had "home field advantage" against the wild card Marlins, and only played one home game after 2 excruciating road losses to the eventual champions.
In 1998 they lost the tiebreaker to the Cubs, with former Giant & future Red Sox Rob Beck slamming the door on the Giants' attempted comeback.
In 2000 they couldn't get past the Mets in the division series.
In 2001 they went down to the last weekend of the season battling for the NL west with the stacked & eventual world champion Dbacks.
In 2002 maybe if Dusty pulls Russ Ortiz a little quicker, they get the trophy 8 years sooner.
In 2003 if JT Snow is a little faster coming home, maybe we see a Game 5 against the eventual champion Marlins (then again, maybe the Cubs finally take it home).
In 2004 if Dustin Hermanson pitches like he would go on to do in 2005, he doesn't blow the 3 run lead in the final game of the regular season and the Giants are in the playoffs with Bonds for a third straight year.
Lot of close chances over the years, because most of the time he's put together a team that is good enough, with a few breaks, to win it all. And now with Bochy they're capitalizing when they get there.
His first big move was trading Matt Williams for Jeff Kent, Julian Tavares and a couple others.
He was killed for this but this trade and other moves set the team up for a solid 8 year run, many times during which they could have won a world series if they got the type of breaks they got this year:
In 1997 they had "home field advantage" against the wild card Marlins, and only played one home game after 2 excruciating road losses to the eventual champions.
In 1998 they lost the tiebreaker to the Cubs, with former Giant & future Red Sox Rob Beck slamming the door on the Giants' attempted comeback.
In 2000 they couldn't get past the Mets in the division series.
In 2001 they went down to the last weekend of the season battling for the NL west with the stacked & eventual world champion Dbacks.
In 2002 maybe if Dusty pulls Russ Ortiz a little quicker, they get the trophy 8 years sooner.
In 2003 if JT Snow is a little faster coming home, maybe we see a Game 5 against the eventual champion Marlins (then again, maybe the Cubs finally take it home).
In 2004 if Dustin Hermanson pitches like he would go on to do in 2005, he doesn't blow the 3 run lead in the final game of the regular season and the Giants are in the playoffs with Bonds for a third straight year.
Lot of close chances over the years, because most of the time he's put together a team that is good enough, with a few breaks, to win it all. And now with Bochy they're capitalizing when they get there.
Ortiz was cruising and Dusty pulled him too soon if anything. Baker invented the inverse Grady Little a year before Grady upped the ante and ignored all the data available as well as the fact that, unlike Baker, the Red Sox had an airtight pen at the time. I just got angry again typing that.Hendu At The Wall said:
Regarding Sabean, the guy was under pressure to put pieces around Bonds, whom nobody liked and whose team played in a horrible place to hit. Then, after Bonds "moved on" he was constrained by a modest budget and another ballpark that depressed offensive numbers. Yet he has somehow pulled the right levers in picking up players who fit the team (Aubrey Huff, Pat Burrell, Ramon Ramirez, Javier Lopez, Chris Ray in 2010, Scutaro, Pence, Theriot in 2012 and then Morse and Peavy in 2014 amongst others).
From where I sit, the idea that Sabean wasn't a good GM largely stems from Moneyball and the chapter where Beane smugly talks about dealing with him during the trading deadline. I am not sure that even went down the way Lewis describes it (he has been accused, on more than one occasion, of stretching the facts to fit his narrative) and furthermore, its not clear how much of a feat it was for Beane to pry the legendary Ricardo Rincon from Sabean. That said, many here have been skeptical of Sabean's ability for years.
Yeah, they gave Barry Zito a bad contract but it didn't prevent them from winning two rings and perhaps he even helped in the development of the Giants young pitching prospects (or, at least, took the heat off of them). And people will rightly slaughter him for the Nathan/Lirano/Bonser for Pierzynski trade as well as unfairly for the Wheeler for Beltran deal (it didn't work but it was defensible), however most good GMs have some bad deals on their resumes.
That said, Sabean and his staff aren't bumbling, old-school idiots. They understand value and they have a plan/organizational framework which they adhere to even if conventional wisdom might argue otherwise. The results are indisputable. And his critics - I was once one of them - have little to say that means anything anymore. He is a very good GM.
The Sabean backlash really ramped up when he intentionally forfeited a first round pick to sign Michael Tucker.DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:
There are some great posts here. I follow the Giants a lot as a favorite team from the "other league". I wouldn't try to add anything except "great announcers". One other thing: they really know how to put on a parade (the parade itself is no better than the Red Sox ones I've watched, but the post parade at the Civic Center, outstanding).
I alluded to this in my post. I believe that was an organizational decision, not Sabean personally. That was during the Bonds era, too. Bonds left n 2007 and very quickly the team re-invested in scouting and the draft. After the Tucker debacle, they did a whole lot better about drafting. In 2006 and 2007, Tim Lincecum and Madison Bumgarner were their top draft picks. In 2008, they hired John Barr to direct scouting and manage the draft. They got Posey and Crawford in that class (and Juan Perez!). They got Wheeler and Belt in 2009, which is a good class even if they lost Wheeler later. In 2010, they added Andrew Susac and Joe Panik. Considering both were on the World Series roster, have to consider that a success, too.leetinsley38 said:
DeJesus, I still contend that if Pierzynski hadn't been a total disaster in San Francisco, that could have been a great trade. But, he hated playing here and it clearly showed in his (lack of) effort and success. He was 27. He could have been a solid catcher for years with the Giants (which he was in his eight-year White Sox stint immediately afterward). If he had been, that trade looks more even. But he was a jerk and it was a hideous trade.
HOWEVER, if Pierzynski works out, the Giants don't turn to Matheny. Because Matheny got hurt, they needed to turn to another veteran, Molina. Their minor league catchers weren't making an impact, so they drafted Posey. So maybe if Pierzynski works out, Posey is playing for the Marlins or something. So, in the end, I am not all that upset about the Pierzynski trade.
Wheeler for Beltran was an overpay, but if the Giants make the playoffs in 2011 it would have been worth it.
Finally, it is fairly well-known now that Zito was a decision from ownership, not Sabean. They wanted another marquee name to build around after Bonds, someone with a sterling reputation and who was well-liked. They failed in that, but after his 2012 miracle playoffs, Giants fans are mostly all good with Barry Z. now... and the Giants brass are far more careful about their contracts.
DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:
Heck, Zito was one of the big heroes in their 2012 postseason. He didn't do much for them, but coming up huge in St. Louis down 3-1 in the NLCS and setting the tone by beating the Tigers in Game 1 of the World Series was critical.
As gael (who is still high from this playoff run no doubt) points out, Zito made amends with the fans back in 2012. I would actually argue that the guy made sense for the Giants when he signed with the team as a guy who could round out their young pitching staff. His peripherals were on a decent decline from his peak seasons in Oakland (three years earlier) but the guy could eat innings. And while his stuff wasn't as sharp as it once was, AT&T, as we all know, is a park where an aging pitcher can still be "effective". The problem was that the Giants paid him like an ace instead of a fifth starter.
We could start another thread about ballplayers who got a bum rap, and my list would with start with Zito. Yes, he took the contract (who wouldn't?) and he made a lot of money so nobody should shed a ton of tears for him. However he got a lot of grief for it while a Giant and he actually handled the whole situation with dignity and class. The Giants are the ones who screwed up on that deal plain and simple. Its really one of the worst contracts ever offered in baseball.
We could start another thread about ballplayers who got a bum rap, and my list would with start with Zito. Yes, he took the contract (who wouldn't?) and he made a lot of money so nobody should shed a ton of tears for him. However he got a lot of grief for it while a Giant and he actually handled the whole situation with dignity and class. The Giants are the ones who screwed up on that deal plain and simple. Its really one of the worst contracts ever offered in baseball.
For me it always seemed like the other owners of the team clipped Magowan's wings in 2003 when the team was really close to getting over the hump. Vlad seemed like a perfect FA signing for them but they opted out and did the Michael Tucker thing instead.
Ortiz allowed 4 of his last 7 batters to reach and needed 23 pitches to get through the bottom of the sixth. He was not "cruising" when he was pulled in the seventh with 2 men on. This was not an inverse Grady.DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:
Who would have thought just a few years ago that Tim Lincecum, Matt Cain and Brian Wilson would all be non factors in a Giants 3rd Word Championship in five seasons?
Great point. And who would have thought 10 years ago with both Bonds and the Giants on the decline that they'd close out 3 series wins with Cody Ross, Gregor Blanco and Juan Perez in Left?YTF said:
Jason Schmidt? He was gone from the Giants after the '06 season and out of baseball after '09. Fixed it for ya anyway. Even Wilson could be dropped, as they had a different closer for all three titles.YTF said:
Outta sight, outta mind. Definitely meant Matt Cain, who hasn't been Matt Cain the past two seasons. Thanks for the save Al.
The Gray Eagle said:
Even Billy Beane doesn't really believe that "crap shoot" aphorism anymore (or why else rent Lester for 3 months?)
And of course, luck and baseball aren't the same as luck and slot machines:
https://motivationalspeaker1.wordpress.com/2009/07/17/luck-is-the-residue-of-design/
Great thread. Only a few things I'd add:
(1) I think the financing for AT&T Park played a significant part in the Giants' Bonds-era decision-making and impacted Sabean's reputation. I suspect decisions like the Michael Tucker signing were a direct result of Sabean being ordered to avoid spending big on things that would not immediately help the big-league team. Extremely short-sighted thinking. As others have suggested, I think Sabean played good soldier and took the blame when the owners were ordering him to do things both to save money, then to save face (i.e., the Zito signing).
(2) I've seen it said in many places that the Giants have a pretty robust analytics group. I think characterizing Sabean as "old school" is misguided, and part of me suspects that he doesn't kill himself contradicting it because he feels it gives him an advantage.
(3) I think Bochy, Righetti and staff are really, really good. As much as the Giants used to be criticized for being overly reliant on veterans, they have a pretty good history of working guys like Posey, Panik, Crawford, Belt, etc., into the lineup. I met JT Snow a couple of years ago and he was unreserved in his bashing of Belt for his refusal to listen to coaches to fix his swing. But they stuck with him and, if he can stay healthy, he could be a mainstay at first. On a related note, they have a knack for getting the best out of players. Joe Panik was not on the BA top 100 at the start of the year and now looks like a really solid major leaguer. Scutaro was scuffling through the 2012 season until going to SF. Affeldt, Lopez, and Jairo Garcia/Santiago Casilla make three more who have flourished in SF.
(4) There is definitely luck involved in winning the WS, but this goes for everyone. Tony Clark's hit was a ground-rule double instead of kicking around the corner. Beane turned down the Sox, so they hired Theo. Jeffery Maier. Saying the Giants are "lucky" is fine, but should not be said dismissively -- every team that wins the WS catches a few breaks along the way.
(1) I think the financing for AT&T Park played a significant part in the Giants' Bonds-era decision-making and impacted Sabean's reputation. I suspect decisions like the Michael Tucker signing were a direct result of Sabean being ordered to avoid spending big on things that would not immediately help the big-league team. Extremely short-sighted thinking. As others have suggested, I think Sabean played good soldier and took the blame when the owners were ordering him to do things both to save money, then to save face (i.e., the Zito signing).
(2) I've seen it said in many places that the Giants have a pretty robust analytics group. I think characterizing Sabean as "old school" is misguided, and part of me suspects that he doesn't kill himself contradicting it because he feels it gives him an advantage.
(3) I think Bochy, Righetti and staff are really, really good. As much as the Giants used to be criticized for being overly reliant on veterans, they have a pretty good history of working guys like Posey, Panik, Crawford, Belt, etc., into the lineup. I met JT Snow a couple of years ago and he was unreserved in his bashing of Belt for his refusal to listen to coaches to fix his swing. But they stuck with him and, if he can stay healthy, he could be a mainstay at first. On a related note, they have a knack for getting the best out of players. Joe Panik was not on the BA top 100 at the start of the year and now looks like a really solid major leaguer. Scutaro was scuffling through the 2012 season until going to SF. Affeldt, Lopez, and Jairo Garcia/Santiago Casilla make three more who have flourished in SF.
(4) There is definitely luck involved in winning the WS, but this goes for everyone. Tony Clark's hit was a ground-rule double instead of kicking around the corner. Beane turned down the Sox, so they hired Theo. Jeffery Maier. Saying the Giants are "lucky" is fine, but should not be said dismissively -- every team that wins the WS catches a few breaks along the way.
And, Righetti is getting the recognition he deserves, finally. When he was introduced by Jon Miller at the after parade ceremony, the roar seemed as loud as it was for Bochy. I guess Bumgarner's was the loudest, then Bochy, Righetti, Posey, Pence and Panda with indistinguishable difference. Of course, no decibel meter, just what it sounded like. I know, this is "just" fan recognition. I have to believe executives, managers, etc., around baseball know what the Giants staff is worth, or at least the ones that pay attention.
Is this really so complicated? When you hit on so many consecutive high draft picks, you really set yourself up for success.
The late 90s/early 2000s drafts were catastrophic, until this run of first rounders, 2002-2011: Cain, David Aardsma (meh, but he spent eight years in the bigs and recorded 69 saves), Lincecum, Wendell Fairley (miss: stalled out at AA), Tim Alderson (dealt for Freddy Sanchez), Bumgarner, Posey, Wheeler (dealt for Carlos Beltran), Gary Brown (repeated AAA as a 25 year old, time running out), Joe Panik.
That's a *ton* of impact talent and a fair amount of trade value. When you add a few good international signees (Panda) and mid-round picks (Romo, Belt, Crawford), you can really round out a team while leaving budget space to acquire players like Pence and the typical hodge-podge of veteran starters.
If Cain comes back healthy next season, they could be in good shape next year, too.
The late 90s/early 2000s drafts were catastrophic, until this run of first rounders, 2002-2011: Cain, David Aardsma (meh, but he spent eight years in the bigs and recorded 69 saves), Lincecum, Wendell Fairley (miss: stalled out at AA), Tim Alderson (dealt for Freddy Sanchez), Bumgarner, Posey, Wheeler (dealt for Carlos Beltran), Gary Brown (repeated AAA as a 25 year old, time running out), Joe Panik.
That's a *ton* of impact talent and a fair amount of trade value. When you add a few good international signees (Panda) and mid-round picks (Romo, Belt, Crawford), you can really round out a team while leaving budget space to acquire players like Pence and the typical hodge-podge of veteran starters.
If Cain comes back healthy next season, they could be in good shape next year, too.
Hendu At The Wall said:
Agree to disagree. Ortiz should have finished that inning imho - he was at 98 pitches and still looked ok. He allowed a clean single to Glaus and a bloop to Fullmer after getting the first out of the inning - he had handled Spiezio thus far that game too. Felix Rodriguez was the absolute worst choice to pitch then. He was a tomato can. I am still angry about this game.
DeJesus, your commitment to remembering the details of that game are remarkable. I was at a bachelorette party and though we were watching the entire thing, I've always been thankful that the gory details were not so easily recalled. Awful. I still hate the Angels.
Natty, JT would be happy to know that Belt did apparently do what it was that they wanted. I think it remains a bit of a work in progress. He was having a good season, then slowed a bit, then had two really flukey injuries and his season was lost. Came up pretty big in the 18th inning recently, though...
Natty, JT would be happy to know that Belt did apparently do what it was that they wanted. I think it remains a bit of a work in progress. He was having a good season, then slowed a bit, then had two really flukey injuries and his season was lost. Came up pretty big in the 18th inning recently, though...