Heyman says Lackey/Corey Littrell to Cardinals for Kelly/Craig

[JimD]

One of the worst sports days in a long time. Just don't get what the Sox are doing here. Craig was beyond brutal this year and is signed for pretty substantial money going forward. Would anyone even of claimed the guy on waivers? Sure he could bounce back, but how is a player like that the main piece the Sox get in return for Lackey? Kelly isn't horrible, but doesn't seem to have the upside that you would hope for in a trade like this. This team is gong to be horrible next season - and somehow, despite that, the main return they got for Lester was a player that they only will control for another year.

 
Lester would have walked for a sandwich pick and Lackey's trade value this winter would likely have been compromised by the hint of a holdout unless he got an extenion.
 
Power is at a premium right now and they picked up a MLB bat in Cespedes and a guy in Craig with tremdous upside if he gets healthy again.
 
Add in a few pieces over the winter and 'horrible' is by no means a predetermined outcome.

 

[Harry Hooper]

 

Things I've learned on this board today:
Cespedes = Rob Deer
Craig = Mike Carp
Joe Kelly = shit

I feel much more informed.

 
 
Deer came to mind as a slugging RH OF with a low OBP and a mixed bag of defensive tools. Obviously not an exact match, but hey.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Isn't Craig a pretty horrendous OFer too?  
 
Is the plan to go with a primary OF of Cespedes/JBJ/Vic with Nava backing up LF and 1B, Holt backing up everyone, and Craig backing up Papi??  I really don't get where he fits in defensively.

 
1.000 career fielding percentage in the outfield.
 
Of course, that's a product of his range, which is nearly nonexistent. Whatever is hit near him, he catches.  So there's that.

 

[joe dokes]

One of the worst sports days in a long time
 

 
I can't fathom this. The past 4 months cant be undone. Personally, I find this all sort of exciting and interesting.
 

This team is gong to be horrible next season - and somehow, despite that, the main return they got for Lester a guy who will be controlled for 2 months was a player that they only will control for another year
 

Fixed

 

[strek1]

I don't like this trade.  I would rather go into 2015 with Lackey in my starting rotation.  I don't see how Craig fits either.

 
I saw Lackey setting himself up to return to the bitter cranky side. Who needs that. He's older and has won, he's just going to be miserable on a team working back to contention. Especially for 500K in 2015. They would have had to kick him more for him to put out an be happy.  And let's not kid ourselves about Craig. This is NOT a Willy-Mo fleece for Bronson A. trade.  Not potential but a guy who HAS done it. Power righty in Fenway. Whoever compared him to Carp is not thinking clearly.  Kelly i can see being  a Dempster or at least a replacement for Doubront. Have to have somebody to fill in the rotation this year. Can't have ALL kids.   Thumbs up from me on this trade.

 

[Merkle's Boner]

Has anyone heard whether there was anything to Vic coming out early last night?  Is he going back to the DL?

 

[Omar's Wacky Neighbor]

He doesn't have great range but has never made an error. Ever.

How are his Intangibles?

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

 
 
Deer came to mind as a slugging RH OF with a low OBP and a mixed bag of defensive tools. Obviously not an exact match, but hey.

 
Deer's low OBP was a result of not being able to put the bat on the ball.  He had a decent eye/patience...about 100 points difference between his BA and OBP for his career.

 

[rodderick]

I also love how the overall feeling went from spending paragraph after paragraph discussing whether or not Lackey would be willing to play next season on a 500k salary, to being devastated that we lost a quality starter that would pitch for the league minimum with absolutely no qualms in 2015.

 

[snowmanny]

He doesn't have great range but has never made an error. Ever.

Someone who can't move but can catch fly balls right at him would have the same result.

 

[Plympton91]

I don't expect Corey Littrell to ever pitch an inning in the major leagues, but it still is a bit irksome that they had to include both money and another prospect when the Red Sox are the only ones taking any risk whatsoever in this deal.   If Kelly is a middle reliever and Craig washes out of the rest of his $30 million, both of which are decidedly nozero probabilities, they've done horribly.  I think overall just Lackey for Craig/Kelly is an even trade; I don't see where the Red Sox should be the ones kicking in the sweeteners.

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

 
The team that shows up in Fort Myers will probably be a lot different than where they stand now. Many many more moves to go. One thing for sure, they are not winning much with the starting pitching they currently have on their roster.

 
And given the moves they've made today, valuing MLB players over iffy and/or far-away prospects, tells me that there is a 0% chance that Ben has any intention of heading into 2015 with a rotation of Buchholz and prospects. It isn't reasonable to bury the 2015 team at this or any point before the offseason dust settles.

 

[joe dokes]

Has anyone heard whether there was anything to Vic coming out early last night?  Is he going back to the DL?

 
I read "precautionary," with Farrell saying "he didn't like the look of Victorino's gait" in the OF after a play or an AB (can;t remember which).

 

[redsahx]

 

Craig was beyond brutal this year and is signed for pretty substantial money going forward. Would anyone even of claimed the guy on waivers?

Yes

Sure he could bounce back, but how is a player like that the main piece the Sox get in return for Lackey? Kelly isn't horrible, but doesn't seem to have the upside that you would hope for in a trade like this. This team is gong to be horrible next season - and somehow, despite that, the main return they got for Lester was a player that they only will control for another year.

A worse outcome would have been Lester leaving as a free agent this offseason for nothing. Cespedes is a guy they likely will extend, and these deals do nothing to preclude them from trying to sign Lester back in the offseason. I'm also willing to safely bet that the next 1.5 years of John Lackey < Next 4 years of (Craig + Kelly)

 

[bosockboy]

Someone who can't move but can catch fly balls right at him would have the same result.

Oddly enough that doesn't happen in MLB.

 

[Plympton91]

I also love how the overall feeling went from spending paragraph after paragraph discussing whether or not Lackey would be willing to play next season on a 500k salary, to being devastated that we lost a quality starter that would pitch for the league minimum with absolutely no qualms in 2015.

 
I think that's a mischaracterization.  Lackey was obviously going to have to be negotiated with, but that option is going to make his new contract for 2015, 2016 and beyond well below fair market value.   It's not worthless. 

 

[Leather]

Says the person defiling the Black Flag logo like so many other internet douches three years ago.
 

 
What does this even mean?   
 
IIRC, TSC merged the logos/names of two of his favorite bands.  
 
 
Anyway, I think people need to step back and realize that the Red Sox aren't trading "1.5 years of John Lackey, HORSE, at 500k!" , they are trading 1.5 years of a (currently) above-average pitcher who will be 36 to start next season, and who might hold out for a better contract.  

 

[nattysez]

I also love how the overall feeling went from spending paragraph after paragraph discussing whether or not Lackey would be willing to play next season on a 500k salary, to being devastated that we lost a quality starter that would pitch for the league minimum with absolutely no qualms in 2015.

 
Totally agree.  Lackey wasn't staying without a lot of difficulty, which impacted his value (both to the Sox and others).  Plus this!

 

[IdiotKicker]

How are his Intangibles?

 
So strong they're tangible.
 
I have a feeling we're going to come out of both of these trades feeling like the Beckett/Hanley trade where both teams end up getting what they needed out of the deals.  They aren't slam dunks for either side, but I don't think either fanbase should be too upset when it is all said and done.

 

[foulkehampshire]

A year and a half ago- we would have traded Lackey for a bag of balls.
 
Instead, we got some risky yet good upside players who are under control for around 4 years each.
 
I consider this a win.

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

Someone who can't move but can catch fly balls right at him would have the same result.

Exactly, put Ortiz in a lawn chair in RF and watch his errorless defense!

 

[FanSinceBoggs]

What does this mean for the Castillo sweepstakes (another right-handed bat)?  I suppose this means the Red Sox aren't interested?  However, Castillo might be able to play CF -- and that would give the Red Sox an outfield of Craig (LF), Castillo (CF), Cespedes (RF), but Victorino is under contract for one more year and what about Bradley?  I would rather have Lackey in my rotation than Craig in my OF especially after acquiring Cespedes.

 

[redsahx]

 

Deer came to mind as a slugging RH OF with a low OBP and a mixed bag of defensive tools. Obviously not an exact match, but hey.

 
I'm just busting balls. The Deer thing was actually interesting because it forced me to go back and remember that he had a pretty good arm himself in the outfield. Of course I don't agree that Cespedes is a great comp to Deer, but that comparison was not senseless like the Craig to Carp one. The outright dismissal of Joe Kelly by some people has been over the top too.

 

[Paul M]

From a cold, hard baseball economics perspective, this was an ok return. Craig may or may not be a platoon OF/DH and they have in some ways morphed into the mid-80s Red Sox with a preference for RH OF bats, but they used to produce them in trade or develop them and have not since 1987.
 
From a human perspective and visceral level, I could barely tolerate John Lackey on a good day. Getting the post surgery version worked out, obviously, but never liked the guy and ultimately a mixed bag return on his deal, though you have to say it was a good signing as much for the Game 3 ALCS start which was one of the better ones I've seen by a Sox starter in October. But, part of me is glad to go really young with the pitchers and pitching is so damn volatile that you can do better with spreading that risk. For me, Lackey was in the pantheon of miserable assholes. In some ways the end of the era of the veterans leading the pitching and back to a point not really seen since the early 80s. Now, let's get Clemens, Hurst, Boyd, Ojeda, and Nipper.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

I don't expect Corey Littrell to ever pitch an inning in the major leagues, but it still is a bit irksome that they had to include both money and another prospect when the Red Sox are the only ones taking any risk whatsoever in this deal.   If Kelly is a middle reliever and Craig washes out of the rest of his $30 million, both of which are decidedly nozero probabilities, they've done horribly.  I think overall just Lackey for Craig/Kelly is an even trade; I don't see where the Red Sox should be the ones kicking in the sweeteners.

Serious questions - how many large transactions, other than your mortgage where you are simply a price taker, have you closed in your life? What do you know about how these deals are actually negotiated and consummated?

I will hang up now and take the answer offline.

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

I also love how the overall feeling went from spending paragraph after paragraph discussing whether or not Lackey would be willing to play next season on a 500k salary, to being devastated that we lost a quality starter that would pitch for the league minimum with absolutely no qualms in 2015.

 
It's also amusing how people have been complaining that the team won't compete because they were going to bet on too many kids and are now complaining that they won't compete because they made the wrong bets on veteran additions to the major league roster.
 
No matter what happened, a lot of these people were going to find reasons to spin it as "We're doomed!"
 
 

What does this mean for the Castillo sweepstakes (another right-handed bat)?  I suppose this means the Red Sox aren't interested?  However, Castillo might be able to play CF -- and that would give the Red Sox an outfield of Craig (LF), Castillo (CF), Cespedes (RF), but Victorino is under contract for one more year and what about Bradley?  I would rather have Lackey in my rotation than Craig in my OF especially after acquiring Cespedes.

 
I think they are more likely to go after Tomas than Castillo now, considering the lack of space on the 25 man for another outfielder. Tomas can spend a season or so in Pawtucket smoothing out the edges. Castillo will very likely be looking for a major league deal and a guarantee of a 25 man roster spot.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Sox now have at least 7 players with double first names.

Joe Kelly
Allen Craig
Jackie bradley
Stephen Drew
David Ross
Allen Webster
Alex Wilson

Now, the plan is becoming clearer.

 
Wilson is not a first name. Or not a good one, anyway.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Holy shit is this board fucking insufferable.
 
Allen Craig put up OPS+ of 157, 137, and 130 in three straight years. He hits lefties/righties equally well (.290 vs .293). He was the only guy who struck fear in me in the world series last year (hit .375) and that was with a bum foot.
 
Has he hit well this year? No. If he comes back next year and puts up a 130+ OPS (which is certainly possible), will this trade be a good deal for the Sox? Absolutely. And that's without Joe Kelly.
 
Seriously, what the fuck were people expecting for a 35 year old pitcher 2 years removed form Tommy John and who will not be pitching for his 500k contract next year? Peoples expectations were fucked up on this thing.

 

[joyofsox]

 
Wilson is not a first name. Or not a good one, anyway.

 
"Says you"
 

 

[kazuneko]

This team is gong to be horrible next season - and somehow, despite that, the main return they got for Lester a guy who will be controlled for 2 months was a player that they only will control for another year

Not sure if your aware of this but players are often traded two months before free agency for top prospects. That usually works better for rebuilding teams who aren't likely to good the season after they trade away their entire starting rotation..

 

[Dogman]

 
Wilson is not a first name. Or not a good one, anyway.

 

[Stan Papi Was Framed]

Holy shit is this board fucking insufferable.
 
Allen Craig put up OPS+ of 157, 137, and 130 in three straight years. He hits lefties/righties equally well (.290 vs .293). He was the only guy who struck fear in me in the world series last year (hit .375) and that was with a bum foot.
 
Has he hit well this year? No. If he comes back next year and puts up a 130+ OPS (which is certainly possible), will this trade be a good deal for the Sox? Absolutely. And that's without Joe Kelly.
 
Seriously, what the fuck were people expecting for a 35 year old pitcher 2 years removed form Tommy John and who will not be pitching for his 500k contract next year? Peoples expectations were fucked up on this thing.

thank you

 

[brandonchristensen]

Wilson is not a first name. Or not a good one, anyway.

 

 
Damnit.

 

[Dogman]

You were Corsi slow.

 

[MakMan44]

https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/494904965761355776
 

Source: Lackey has told #STLCards he plans to honor his club option. No extension at this time.

 

[redsahx]

 

Not sure if your aware of this but players are often traded two months before free agency for top prospects. That usually works better for rebuilding teams who aren't likely to good the season after they trade away their entire starting rotation..

 
Cespedes and Craig and Kelly each have three+ years of MLB experience. That's a bit different than getting prospects.

 

[brandonchristensen]

1 minute in board time is an eternity right now.

 

[Greg29fan]

Ken Rosenthal ‏@Ken_Rosenthal 1m
Source: Lackey has told #STLCards he plans to honor his club option. No extension at this time.

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

Not sure if your aware of this but players are often traded two months before free agency for top prospects. That usually works better for rebuilding teams who aren't likely to good the season after they trade away their entire starting rotation..

 
Not sure if you are aware of this but teams can no longer trade for a player with 2 months of control left and offer them arbitration or a QO, which deflates the value of such players.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Ken Rosenthal ‏@Ken_Rosenthal 1m
Source: Lackey has told #STLCards he plans to honor his club option. No extension at this time.

 
Oh, there's no way he's playing for basically league minimum.  No way at all.  

 

[jsinger121]

Ken Rosenthal ‏@Ken_Rosenthal 1m
Source: Lackey has told #STLCards he plans to honor his club option. No extension at this time.

 
Shocked to hear this.

 

[twibnotes]

A year and a half ago- we would have traded Lackey for a bag of balls.
 
Instead, we got some risky yet good upside players who are under control for around 4 years each.
 
I consider this a win.

Who cares about a year and a half ago. Lackey and his cheap contract are valuable today, and we moved him for a nice reliever and a guy who doesn't really fit our team and who, more importantly, has been pretty awful (and hurt) this year.

The deal hinges on Craig getting healthy and productive - not sure what the odds are of that, but I would have hoped for something better for Lackey.

 

[DJnVa]

Not sure if your aware of this but players are often traded two months before free agency for top prospects. That usually works better for rebuilding teams who aren't likely to good the season after they trade away their entire starting rotation..

 
If you're going to be condescending, at least use proper grammar and be funny.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Who cares about a year and a half ago. Lackey and his cheap contract are valuable today, and we moved him for a nice reliever and a guy who doesn't really fit our team and who, more importantly, has been pretty awful (and hurt) this year.

The deal hinges on Craig getting healthy and productive - not sure what the odds are of that, but I would have hoped for something better for Lackey.

 
Why do I get the feeling that if the Sox had somehow exchanged Lackey (or Lester) for Mike Trout, there'd still be people on this site saying "that's all?"

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

Sox now have at least 7 players with double first names.

. . .
Allen Webster
. . .

 
That one's a stretch, methinks.
 

Allen Craig put up OPS+ of 157, 137, and 130 in three straight years. He hits lefties/righties equally well (.290 vs .293). He was the only guy who struck fear in me in the world series last year (hit .375) and that was with a bum foot.
 
Has he hit well this year? No. If he comes back next year and puts up a 130+ OPS (which is certainly possible), will this trade be a good deal for the Sox? Absolutely. And that's without Joe Kelly.

 
I hope you're right, but the FG article linked to upthread makes a pretty good case that you may not be. And it's kind of an annoying non sequitur, when people are arguing that someone may not be the player he used to be, to respond with, "what's the matter with you people? Look what he's done in the past." It would be like a Cardinals fan complaining that they got shit value for Craig and pointing to Lackey's 2011 season. Sometimes when a player's performance takes a sharp turn for better or worse, it's random. Sometimes it's not. If you're going to argue that in Craig's case it's the former, at least acknowledge that the latter is also possible instead of just dismissing people who are concerned about it as "insufferable."

 

[foulkehampshire]

Who cares about a year and a half ago. Lackey and his cheap contract are valuable today, and we moved him for a nice reliever and a guy who doesn't really fit our team and who, more importantly, has been pretty awful (and hurt) this year.

The deal hinges on Craig getting healthy and productive - not sure what the odds are of that, but I would have hoped for something better for Lackey.

 
Lackey is a 36 year old SP with a ton of miles on his bionic arm. I'm not going to weep that we traded him while he still had some kind of value.

 

[IdiotKicker]

Not sure if your aware of this but players are often traded two months before free agency for top prospects. That usually works better for rebuilding teams who aren't likely to good the season after they trade away their entire starting rotation..

 
In some cases it does, but it also has quite a bit of risk.  On one end, the Miguel Cabrera trade ended up bringing close to zero value back to the Marlins in the form of Cameron Maybin and Andrew Miller (who while he has blossomed for the Sox, didn't do shit for the Marlins).  On the other end of the spectrum, the Bartolo Colon trade brought Grady Sizemore, Brandon Phillips, and Cliff Lee to the Indians.  There is a ton of risk in taking on prospects because you have no idea what you are really getting.  This team already has a ton of prospect risk for next year.  By acquiring proven contributors, you balance that risk, and at a very reasonable cost here.  Looking at these deals more in depth, this is exactly the type of team-building you want in order to mitigate your various types of risk.

 

[TheoShmeo]

 
Shocked to hear this.

I think it's a vista into how much he wanted out of Boston. 

 

[P'tucket rhymes with...]

 
Shocked to hear this.

I think the operative words there are "at this time."  Even he knows not to walk into your new boss's place and piss on the carpet.
 

 

[hrbrendan]

I think it's a vista into how much he wanted out of Boston. 

 
or he doesnt want to be a villain on his first day in town.  give him a week.